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anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 6042
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Gods and Generals--2003 Movie
Posted on: 6/21/2017 4:38:53 AM
I have mixed feelings about 'Gods and Generals' and think maybe it should have been entitled 'Stonewall' or something similar, as it revolved totally around Stonewall Jackson. P We saw 1st Bull Run (possibly to explain why Jackson earned the nickname Stonewall) and then the film jumped to Fredericksburg and Chancellorsville. So what happened to the Peninsula Campaign, and even more so to Antietam.Major flaws here

I disagree with other reviewers about Robert Duvall as Lee - he came over as pale and lifeless, never once did we see any emotion from him, even when he heard that Jackson had been badly injured. His comment that Jackson 'had lost his left arm. I have lost my right arm' was delivered with no expression at all-Wooden- to my lasting surprise.

He may have looked more like Lee than Martin Sheen did in 'Gettysburg', but at least Sheen showed Lee as a man with deep feelings, which cannot be said for Duvall who was more like a cardboard cut-out.Most disappointing !!!

I am very much reminded of the BEF in 1940-some regular infantry divisions, plus rather more TA divisions which were totally unready for war- as in the beginning of Gods and Generals-leading to a "Massacre of the Innocents" whereas the 8th army three years later after Monte Cassino- slogging up Italy to the Gothic Line; were hardened veterans- as were the soldiers at Gettysburg

Regards

Jim

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Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 2889

Re: Gods and Generals--2003 Movie
Posted on: 6/21/2017 9:49:13 AM
What everyone thinks of "Gods & Generals"!?

[Read More]

Bad, awful, terrible, bad!
MD
---------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

Lightning
Glasgow, UK
top 20
E-7 Sgt First Class


Posts: 452

Re: Gods and Generals--2003 Movie
Posted on: 6/21/2017 10:24:31 AM
Jim,

There are scenes from Antietam available in the Director's Cut, as well as scenes featuring Abraham Lincoln (and others). However, they don't add to what is a poorly made film. I found the depiction of African-Americans particularly hard to swallow.

Cheers,

Colin
---------------
"There is no course open to us but to fight it out. Every position must be held to the last man: there must be no retirement. With our backs to the wall and believing in the justice of our cause, each one of us must fight to the end."

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 6042
http:// 82.44.47.99
Re: Gods and Generals--2003 Movie
Posted on: 6/21/2017 10:38:10 AM
So was that awful racket you subjected me to Dave.BTW I did not think it was BAD movie

Regards

Jim
---------------
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Lightning
Glasgow, UK
top 20
E-7 Sgt First Class


Posts: 452

Re: Gods and Generals--2003 Movie
Posted on: 6/21/2017 12:06:56 PM
Jim, it's awful.
---------------
"There is no course open to us but to fight it out. Every position must be held to the last man: there must be no retirement. With our backs to the wall and believing in the justice of our cause, each one of us must fight to the end."

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 6042
http:// 82.44.47.99
Re: Gods and Generals--2003 Movie
Posted on: 6/21/2017 12:29:03 PM
Colin-I respect your judgement; but I would be pleased to learn WHY you thought it was "awful"-I am naturally anxious to know why I am wrong in thinking it passable-I am aware it lacked the melodrama of Gettysburg.

Regards

Jim
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littlepowell
SC, USA
top 25
E-6 Staff Sergeant


Posts: 399
http://www.scourgeofwar.com/
Re: Gods and Generals--2003 Movie
Posted on: 6/21/2017 2:07:05 PM
I'm with Jim, it wasn't a great movie but it wasn't bad either. There are some very well done scenes; the battle sequence on Marye’s Heights, Jackson's farewell speech from VMI, Jacksons flank attack at Chancellorsville. It's definitely worth a watch.
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http://www.scourgeofwar.com/ - Historical tactical combat games for PC.

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 6042
http:// 82.44.47.99
Re: Gods and Generals--2003 Movie
Posted on: 6/21/2017 2:24:25 PM
Many thanks lp for your support of this rather mixed bag-20th Maine did itself proud- for being so resolute under very heavy fire at the Siege of Fredericksburg, and would go on to greater glory at Little Round Top.

Regards

Jim
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Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 2889

Re: Gods and Generals--2003 Movie
Posted on: 6/21/2017 3:53:53 PM
Jim, & lp,

I guess the movie wasn't all that bad, it had it's moments!?

like this one,]

[Read More]

catchy tune, wouldn't you say?
MD
---------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5566

Re: Gods and Generals--2003 Movie
Posted on: 6/21/2017 5:33:55 PM

Quote:
Colin-I respect your judgement; but I would be pleased to learn WHY you thought it was "awful"-I am naturally anxious to know why I am wrong in thinking it passable-I am aware it lacked the melodrama of Gettysburg.

Regards

Jim
--anemone


From memory, were there any more than 2 black people with speaking parts?

I don't know much about Stonewall Jackson but the portrayal of the man seemed almost caricature.

Those scenes where he repeats the name of his wife over and over again, (Lupe, Lupe, Lupe) were particularly hard to watch.

I know that the Ken Burns' documentary on the civil war isn't a movie, but it was infinitely more compelling than this flick.



anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 6042
http:// 82.44.47.99
Re: Gods and Generals--2003 Movie
Posted on: 6/22/2017 3:09:04 AM
George-There were two black people with speaking pars SToneweall's cook and what appeared to be the cook's assistant.

T find your judgement that Stonewall'portrayal of him as a caricature odd-this never entered my head ever.Nor did him repeating his wife's name.

I have to accept that the Burn's documentary was more compelling than the movie because I have not seen this work.

You must understand that as as a foreigner-I am looking at scenes that I have never seen before-hence my apparent ignorance of what that scene ought to be.

Call me easily pleased

Regards

Jim
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George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5566

Re: Gods and Generals--2003 Movie
Posted on: 6/22/2017 6:03:35 AM
But Jim, with respect to this civil war, I too am a foreigner.

Cheers,

George

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 6042
http:// 82.44.47.99
Re: Gods and Generals--2003 Movie
Posted on: 6/22/2017 7:03:15 AM
George-IF there can be a comparative in this case -I do believe that I am "more foreign" than you -a citizen of the north of North America.As I said- I am probably easily pleased-the ACW is a learning curve for me.

Regards

Jim
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George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5566

Re: Gods and Generals--2003 Movie
Posted on: 6/22/2017 7:44:59 AM

Well I won't debate which of us is the most "foreign" when it comes to a relationship with the US. You may win that battle if you like.

Jim, it's a movie so you can just watch and enjoy. I don't spend a great deal of time in the study of this war but I can watch a movie and give it a thumbs up or a thumbs down based upon the production and acting skills presented.

If the producer and director have taken liberties with historical facts, I would be oblivious in this case.

So there is no criticism of you for taking pleasure in a movie that I found tedious. If you liked it and it gave pleasure, that's a good thing.

If the sight and sound of Stonewall Jackson wailing "Lupe, Lupe, Lupe" struck an emotional chord with you, then so be it.

I watched this movie in Myrtle Beach, South Carolina when it was first released. It was so long that it had an intermission inserted.

When we returned to the theatre after the intermission, it was half empty. Even those southerners couldn't take it any more.



Cheers,

George




anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 6042
http:// 82.44.47.99
Re: Gods and Generals--2003 Movie
Posted on: 6/22/2017 8:12:28 AM
George-you are too gracious-I have seen the many brickbats hurled at this movie; but I enjoyed it comparatively well; but alongside Gettysburg- which I confess had me on the edge of my seat-it took the laurels.If you should be able to name one-what movie held you in your seat.My choices are "The Cruel Sea" and "Saving private Ryan"

Regards

Jim
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George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5566

Re: Gods and Generals--2003 Movie
Posted on: 6/22/2017 10:23:26 AM
The first twenty minutes of "Saving Private Ryan" were riveting and I enjoyed the movie immensely.

The movie was screened in Toronto to a few war vets in 1998, some of whom had landed on Juno Beach.

They said that it was realistic and brought back memories. They had a couple of professional remarks to make about how close together the soldiers were as they waded in. "You had to separate quickly. Too many guys get killed when you bunch up".

So if it was good enough for some men who were actually there, it was good enough for me. Great movie.

Oh, I just thought of one little dig made by either Tom Hanks or an officer to whom he was speaking. It was along the lines of, "If Monty would just get moving".

That ticked me off. I mean, what was it, July 7 or 8. The greatest penetration had been made by the British and Canadians on day 1. The combat outside of Caen on the 7th, 8th and 9th was fearsome warfare.

As a furriner, I found that comment inaccurate and gratuitous. They just had to get in a dig even though this movie had nothing to do with the Brits or Canadians.

I notice little things like that.

Other than that, as I said, great flick. I have a copy in my rather sad collection of DVD's.

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 6042
http:// 82.44.47.99
Re: Gods and Generals--2003 Movie
Posted on: 6/22/2017 10:37:43 AM
My father and I watched "The Cruel Sea"in the Fifties-he being RNR and an old salt at 36 yrs old- I expected some derogatory remarks; but not a word -he said afterwards-"that is how it was boy- but sometimes worse"

Regards

Jim
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morris crumley
Lawrenceville, GA, USA
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 1254

Re: Gods and Generals--2003 Movie
Posted on: 6/22/2017 12:55:50 PM
George, just because you take in a movie in Myrtle Beach South Carolina doesn`t mean those other folks are "Southerners." Yankees invaded our sacred soil in the mid 1860`s...and their great great grandchillen got the hell out of the North...and came down here years later.

It pains me to say it, but Sheen was a better Lee than Duval. Robert Duval has too much of a "mountain twang accent" whereas I believe that Sheen, in Gettysburg, has a more "Virgina planter class" accent.

The dialogue in the film has also been the subject of criticism. Well, people back then talked that way. A totally different English language has evolved to today.

Gods and Generals is too ambitious for it`s own good. To try and convey what happens in the course of more than two years of that war in one film is just too hard a task to pull off. As for Jackson being a caricature, well the actual man was a caricature. He was an odd, eccentric...and "driven as all hell."

And I don`t recall Jackson wailing Lupe! If I recall he referred to her as "esposita" an endearment he learned from his time in the Mexican War.

And one last bit...if your making a film about the fighting that took place in the American Civil War...between early 1861, and leading up to Gettysburg, July 1863...there just ain`t much of a market for black speaking roles....on either side. The first incident of black soldiers participating in a major engagement was not until just after Gettysburg.

Some have criticized the loyalty to white southerners displayed by the black characters in the film. Well, Jackson`s cook was a loyal friend...Jackson and his wife were responsible for helping to educate blacks which was illegal quite frankly. And, yes...while a female slave working in a household in a town like Fredricksburg would naturally wish for freedom...she would be torn because she had helped raise the two boys who left the home to go to war. People make a mistake by judging what happens a hundred fifty years ago by today`s standards of behavior.

Respects, Morris


---------------
"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."

littlepowell
SC, USA
top 25
E-6 Staff Sergeant


Posts: 399
http://www.scourgeofwar.com/
Re: Gods and Generals--2003 Movie
Posted on: 6/22/2017 1:45:16 PM

Quote:
People make a mistake by judging what happens a hundred fifty years ago by today`s standards of behavior.


Excellent point, Morris. I don't want to change the subject, or get into a political discussion, but this is the reason why it's so sad to see the Confederate monuments being relocated. Sad, but necessary for progressions sake.. I've stated before that I support their relocation. Because no one could ever explain to the protesters adequately that times were just drastically different back then.. I've studied those men on the monuments my entire adult life. With rare exceptions, it wasn't about hate. It was their culture, it was all they knew. The northerners didn't understand that then, and people 150 years later certainly don't either.
---------------
http://www.scourgeofwar.com/ - Historical tactical combat games for PC.

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5566

Re: Gods and Generals--2003 Movie
Posted on: 6/22/2017 1:48:22 PM
Good points Morris. I mean I was there as a tourist so the room could have been full of tourists and not the native born South Carolinians.

I will say that the guy behind me spoke with a distinctly southern accent. You would be able to identify it where I cannot.

But I understood his sentiments when he got out of his seat and drawled to his wife, "Thank Gawd that's over".

Maybe it was date night and he was commenting on that experience, but I think it was the movie.

morris crumley
Lawrenceville, GA, USA
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 1254

Re: Gods and Generals--2003 Movie
Posted on: 6/22/2017 5:21:45 PM
Well, only a true southerner would take his date to see "God`s and Generals." Perhaps he had an early start next morning to go a fishin`.

LP, you and I just don`t agree about the confederate statues and all. To me, we shouldn`t follow the policy of some bad dudes..and feel we must erase aspects of our history we don`t like. We shouldn`t have to appease one set of people...by flippin` off others.

Sadly...that`s where we are as a country today...and I think it`s not that good a road to start down. True progress should be a result of accepting each other...warts and all...and seeing where we`ve been...and looking at where we are. And respecting the journey.

But don`t allow me to hijack this thread about that matter.

I`m not one of those harsh critics of G&G. I am not very objective about it. My ancestors were in the 24th Georgia...so they are that "Irish regiment" shooting down the Union "Irish Brigade" along the stone wall. I think the movie long, over ambitious, not as good as "Gettysburg"...but there are very stirring moments that I find well worth a look.

And, as a tune...I love The Bonnie Blue Flag.

Respects, Morris
---------------
"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."

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