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  - - (1863) Battle of Gettysburg - 101    
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Dick Evick
Waco , TX, USA
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E-4 Corporal
Posts: 152

Picketts Charge
Posted on: 6/28/2016 12:07:25 PM
Was there a plan in place from Lee had Pickett achieved his objective, other than Stuart disrupting retreating elements of the AOP?

Thanks,

Dick.


Scott Brown
MA, USA
top 40
E-4 Corporal
Posts: 165

Re: Picketts Charge
Posted on: 6/28/2016 4:49:33 PM
Great question, Dick.

It depends on who you believe .

There was an interesting article many years ago in Gettysburg Magazine by Rich Rollins entitled "The Second Wave of Pickett's Charge". It's been years since I looked at it, but I don't believe the evidence fully supported the authors contentions of troop support for PPT. We've discussed it here over the years, and we've also discussed what was meant by "lack of support" in the ANV historiography. Did that refer to supporting troops, supporting artillery, or both?

I'd love to see another discussion on this topic. After all, it's that time of the year, in case anybody hasn't been reading Larry Purtell's posts on the main GB board.

Regards,
Scott B.

Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
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E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 2851

Re: Picketts Charge
Posted on: 6/28/2016 6:54:14 PM
Hi Dick, & Scott,

You might say everything that could go wrong, did go wrong with PPT Charge. It certainly lacked coordination, and support! Such a bold move by Lee needed to be better thought out, did he really need to gamble so desperately? I know it's hind site, but he should have listened to Longstreet!?

One man's opinion??
Dave
---------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

Scott Brown
MA, USA
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E-4 Corporal
Posts: 165

Re: Picketts Charge
Posted on: 6/28/2016 7:59:14 PM
MD,

What's interesting is that some primary accounts claim everything was planned down to the most minute detail, and that everyone involved knew those details.

Regards,
Scott B.

Jim Cameron
North Bellmore, NY, USA
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E-8 Master Sergeant


Posts: 673

Re: Picketts Charge
Posted on: 6/28/2016 8:30:25 PM
I think that Lee thought that he had made more effective plans than was actually the case.
As to Rollins' "Second Wave" article, I still consider it to have been one of the weakest to have appeared in Gettysburg Magazine.
---------------
Jim Cameron

Every time I go to Gettysburg, I learn two things. Something new, and, how much I still don't know.

gettysburgerrn
massapequa, NY, USA
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E-4 Corporal


Posts: 96

Re: Picketts Charge
Posted on: 6/29/2016 7:56:25 AM
I think Troy Harmon is doing a battlewalk on this issue on July 3...

Ken
---------------
"You will find a great many of the truths we cling to depend greatly upon our own point of view...." Obi Wan Kenobi

Dick Evick
Waco , TX, USA
top 40
E-4 Corporal
Posts: 152

Re: Picketts Charge
Posted on: 6/29/2016 8:18:31 AM
Ken I wish I could be there for Mr. Harmon's walk and knowledge on the subject.

If possible could you please post results?

Respectfully,

Dick.

Rick Schaus
Capon Springs, WV, USA
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E-8 Master Sergeant


Posts: 548

Re: Picketts Charge
Posted on: 6/29/2016 11:58:32 AM
Dick,

Are you referring to the entire attack, as in “Longstreet’s Assault”, (our PPT) or just Pickett’s division’s role?
---------------
VR, Rick Schaus

"When things go wrong in your command, start searching for the reason in increasingly large circles around your own desk."
-- Gen. Bruce Clarke

Dick Evick
Waco , TX, USA
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E-4 Corporal
Posts: 152

Re: Picketts Charge
Posted on: 6/29/2016 12:25:09 PM
The entire PPT Assault.

Dick.

littlepowell
SC, USA
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E-6 Staff Sergeant


Posts: 398
http://www.scourgeofwar.com/
Re: Picketts Charge
Posted on: 6/29/2016 12:50:00 PM

Quote:
Was there a plan in place from Lee had Pickett achieved his objective, other than Stuart disrupting retreating elements of the AOP?

Thanks,

Dick.


--Dick Evick


And furthermore, was there a plan in place if Stuart wasn't able to reach those retreating elements? (hence he was getting smacked around by Gregg at ECF.)
---------------
http://www.scourgeofwar.com/ - Historical tactical combat games for PC.

Rick Schaus
Capon Springs, WV, USA
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Posts: 548

Re: Picketts Charge
Posted on: 6/29/2016 1:58:12 PM
Lee’s plan for all three days (from after he arrived on 1 July and observed the Federal retreat) was to ‘dislodge’ the AoP from Cemetery Hill, which he saw as the key to the Federal position.

If the attack on 3 July had dislodged the AoP from its position, and Meade had retreated, I don’t believe that Lee had any intention of pursuit beyond Stuart’s harassment..
The ANV was simply too battered to follow up on any success on 3 July.
There was also a shortage of ammunition which would have to come from VA.

A Federal retreat would have given Lee freedom of movement, but I believe that continued aggressive action was out of the question and his action would have been to withdraw the ANV back to VA.
He would have done so at his own pace, and continued to acquire any supplies that his foraging parties came across.
He had many wounded that had to be taken back to VA (those that could be moved).

How much time Lee had to withdraw would have been determined by how far away Meade retreated, and if he attempted a pursuit.
---------------
VR, Rick Schaus

"When things go wrong in your command, start searching for the reason in increasingly large circles around your own desk."
-- Gen. Bruce Clarke

borderstates
Raceland / Lafayette, LA, USA
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E-5 Sergeant


Posts: 215

Re: Picketts Charge
Posted on: 6/29/2016 2:43:17 PM

Quote:
Lee’s plan for all three days (from after he arrived on 1 July and observed the Federal retreat) was to ‘dislodge’ the AoP from Cemetery Hill, which he saw as the key to the Federal position.

If the attack on 3 July had dislodged the AoP from its position, and Meade had retreated, I don’t believe that Lee had any intention of pursuit beyond Stuart’s harassment..
The ANV was simply too battered to follow up on any success on 3 July.
There was also a shortage of ammunition which would have to come from VA.

A Federal retreat would have given Lee freedom of movement, but I believe that continued aggressive action was out of the question and his action would have been to withdraw the ANV back to VA.
He would have done so at his own pace, and continued to acquire any supplies that his foraging parties came across.
He had many wounded that had to be taken back to VA (those that could be moved).

How much time Lee had to withdraw would have been determined by how far away Meade retreated, and if he attempted a pursuit.

--Rick Schaus


Rick,

I think this goes to the heart of the matter. Where would Lee go and with what? Bottom line is that he had little ammunition, provisions or healthy horses left. He had somewhere in the ~50,000 effectives left in his army and ~20,000 wounded. Lee is deep in Union territory and there are other forces that can be brought to bear on his small, remaining force. Even if Lee had pushed Meade off of CH and Meade had fallen back, where was Lee going to go?
---------------
Respectfully yours,

Mike

OUR DEBT TO THE HEROIC MEN AND VALIANT WOMEN IN THE SERVICE
OF OUR COUNTRY CAN NEVER BE REPAID. THEY HAVE EARNED OUR
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Dick Evick
Waco , TX, USA
top 40
E-4 Corporal
Posts: 152

Re: Picketts Charge
Posted on: 6/29/2016 2:54:50 PM
Rick & Mike,

I agree Lee needed to return to VA.with the possibility of the peace movement in the North possibly gaining momentum
after the AOP is defeated again this soon after Chancellorsville.

Dick.

gettysburgerrn
massapequa, NY, USA
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E-4 Corporal


Posts: 96

Re: Picketts Charge
Posted on: 6/29/2016 5:18:24 PM
By the way Troy Harmon is also doing a campfire presentation on this topic tonight in pitzers woods. (I'm not getting there till tomorrow bummer)

Ken
---------------
"You will find a great many of the truths we cling to depend greatly upon our own point of view...." Obi Wan Kenobi

Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
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E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 2851

Re: Picketts Charge
Posted on: 6/19/2017 6:46:35 PM
[Read More]

July 3, 1863

[Read More]
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
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Posts: 6032
http:// 82.44.47.99
Re: Picketts Charge
Posted on: 6/21/2017 3:33:27 AM
Is it true- that on the following day, the bloodied Rebel army limped home. To President Lincoln’s frustration, the triumphant Meade mounted no counter attack nor did he try to force a follow-up battle to destroy the Confederates.????? The question here is- were all of Meade's forces deployed to action stations on that day.????

Critics are said to have blasted the Union general for passing up an opportunity to crush the Army of Northern Virginia once and for all and end the war!!!.

Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

Phil Andrade
London, UK
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Moderator
Posts: 2527

Re: Picketts Charge
Posted on: 6/21/2017 4:23:37 AM
Failure to pursue and exploit is a charge made against several commanders on both sides after several severe battles.

I would contend that Meade had a better excuse than the others.

Regards , Phil
---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
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Posts: 6032
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Re: Picketts Charge
Posted on: 6/21/2017 4:42:48 AM
OK Phil- but what "better excuse"- if you would be so kind.I am aware that the battle of Gettysburg had taken a heavy toll on both sides -22,000 each. Lee limped away; but Meade rested on his laurels- despite being ordered by Lincoln to pursue-Why??

Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

Phil andrade
London, UK
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Moderator
Posts: 2527

Re: Picketts Charge
Posted on: 6/21/2017 5:32:20 AM
Being appointed to command almost literally a day or to before the battle.

Taking a horrific beating : 23,000 Northern and 24,000 Southern casualties ; but, important to remember that up until the end of day two the damage had been far worse for the North.

Compared with McClellan's failure to exploit after Antietam, Meade's caution is far more understandable and vastly more justifiable.

A lot more might be said, but I reckon those points I've emphasised should be enough to cut Meade some slack.

Regards, Phil
---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
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Posts: 6032
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Re: Picketts Charge
Posted on: 6/21/2017 5:52:20 AM
Having read John Keegan's account of this battle -I gather a belated attempt was made by Meade's forces to pursue Lee; but it came to nothing.

I also understand that Meade offered to resign his command; but was not taken up on this, and he remained GOC AOTP until the end of the war.

I fear that I forget that the armies involved in this war were not "regular soldiers" but were "recruited citizen armies"-although generaled by professional officers

However I do feel that a professional army general ought to have had a plan to follow up a rout- should that happen-which did of course happen; but no follow up plan.

Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
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Posts: 2851

Re: Picketts Charge
Posted on: 6/21/2017 8:35:00 AM
Hi Jim,

I tend to side with Phil, in this instance. Although had a more aggressive commander like US Grant been there, He might have pressed this attack. I believe that because of the points Phil makes about Meade's situation, that after this vital but costly victory, that turned back Lee and the ANV's invasion of the North! We should cut Meade some slack, remember Lincoln was making these orders behind the safety of the oval office! While Meade was at the scene the whole time!

Actually I give Meade Kudos for turning back the Great "Marse Robert"!
MD
---------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

Phil andrade
London, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Moderator
Posts: 2527

Re: Picketts Charge
Posted on: 6/21/2017 9:02:47 AM
First Mannassas ; Shiloh ; Antietam ; Stones River and Chickamauga....those are five other battles which might be cited for the failure of the victors to pursue and exploit. Something of a syndrome in this war, reflecting the nature of the battlefields and the battles themselves.

Gettysburg was an encounter battle ; fought beyond the design and desire of the opposing generals.

Within barely a day or two of taking command, and saddled with corps commanders who are, in some cases, his political foes ( there was pernicious factionalism at higher command level ), Meade is plunged into a battle of extraordinary intensity. He's fighting on home soil, against an enemy that is flushed with victory. His numerical superiority is not large : indeed, on the first day his troops are outnumbered. The stakes are very high : this is an existential battle for the Union, IMHO.

By the end of the second day, Meade's casualties exceed those of Lee by forty per cent : his loss is heavier, not only in absolute numbers,but in proportionate terms, too.

Among his casualties by the end of the battle are a shockingly high number of senior officers, including one corps commander killed and two desperately wounded.

His defensive performance under this unimaginable pressure is first rate, despite the awful predicament forced upon the army by the imprudent move of Sickles.

It's all he can do to hold things together and contain the ferocious attacks of Lee's veterans.

To expect a general in such a position, confronted with a series of crises at point blank range, to have a plan at hand for immediate pursuit and exploitation strikes me as rather unfair.

This is a man fighting by the seat of his pants ; it's a terrifying wing and a prayer affair.

Am I being too kind to Meade ?

Well, Abe Lincoln clearly thought so ; and so did some of the subordinate commanders.

So I venture my arguments with humility ....but they are heartfelt.

Regards , Phil

---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
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Posts: 6032
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Re: Picketts Charge
Posted on: 6/21/2017 9:33:42 AM
Well put my old pal-I can certainly see where you are coming from.Gettysburg was an Armageddon-it was no El Alamein where the leadership was well back from a carefully planned offensive against an approaching enemy.

Gettysburg was a desperate defence against a brave and determined enemy who seemed not to fear shot and shell-all very ugly.The aftermath would be to rest and take stock away from the hellfire of battle-perfectly understandable .

Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

Jim Cameron
North Bellmore, NY, USA
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E-8 Master Sergeant


Posts: 673

Re: Picketts Charge
Posted on: 6/21/2017 9:37:28 AM
Successful pursuit and exploitation was difficult where neither army enjoyed an advantage in speed or maneuverability over the other. One side could always break contact and leave the field, leaving the other with a stern chase. Limited road nets made cutting off the retreating force difficult (particularly with most roads unimproved), and rearguard actions made it hard to over take.
---------------
Jim Cameron

Every time I go to Gettysburg, I learn two things. Something new, and, how much I still don't know.

Phil andrade
London, UK
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Moderator
Posts: 2527

Re: Picketts Charge
Posted on: 6/21/2017 9:53:19 AM
Thank you, Jim, and to our anenome Jim.....

It's significant that you alluded to El Alamein.

If we are to attribute culpability to Meade on account of failing to expoit at Gettysburg, then how much more severely might we press that charge against Monty at El Alamein ?

Remember that movie GETTYSBURG that you've pitched a thread about in the media section ?

It depicts the frantic dismay of the Confederates after the repulse of Pickett. During that scene, Longstreet - the hero of the film - is dashing about preparing to face the Yankee counterattack. When he realises that they're not coming, he is disappointed.

There were 140 confederate guns and some strong rebel infantry units in position facing across the valley.

Can you imagine the punishment that they would have meted out to a massive Yankee counterattack ?

One of the most striking things about the performance of Lee's army throughout the war was its ability to act reflexively : at moments of great crisis - Antietam, the Wilderness and Spotsylvania - it turned a dire tactical situation round in displays of resilience and resolve, coming from the back foot and regaining the advantage.
I believe that, even after the awful repulse of Pickett's Charge, those southern warriors were able - and certainly willing - to slaughter any Yankees who were rash enough to sally forth.

Regards , Phil

---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
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Posts: 6032
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Re: Picketts Charge
Posted on: 6/21/2017 9:54:46 AM
Jim -I ca only say that I wholeheartedly agree with your synopsis; and now see why there was no follow up by Meade's forces.My Thanks for your input.

Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

Jim Cameron
North Bellmore, NY, USA
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Posts: 673

Re: Picketts Charge
Posted on: 6/21/2017 11:44:10 AM
Mounting a massive counterattack would have been all but impossible. The Union position in the immediate zone of the attack was badly disrupted, and little was available in terms of uncommitted, coherent, reserve formations. It was also getting rather late in the day, and even if a counterattack did achieve success, the Union would have been left with the same problem as the ANV had the charge been successful. How to exploit it?
---------------
Jim Cameron

Every time I go to Gettysburg, I learn two things. Something new, and, how much I still don't know.

Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
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Posts: 2851

Re: Picketts Charge
Posted on: 6/21/2017 4:08:01 PM
It was even more horrific on the charging Reb's than this, this after-all is just the scene from the movie!?

[Read More]

Those guys were brave, is a understatement! BTW Notice Ted Turner in this scene??

MD
---------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 2851

Re: Picketts Charge
Posted on: 6/21/2017 9:01:37 PM
BTW Here is Hollywood's take on what happened next, concerning Meade, Lincoln, & Grant!?

[Read More]
---------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

Phil Andrade
London, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Moderator
Posts: 2527

Re: Picketts Charge
Posted on: 6/22/2017 10:44:18 AM
Thanks, Dave !

They're great, those YouTube vignettes....often grossly caricatured, but entertaining and informative.

I watched a few of them in my Dorset caravan today, all attached to the initial one you sent as a link .

Regards, Phil


---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

Rick Schaus
Capon Springs, WV, USA
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant


Posts: 548

Re: Picketts Charge
Posted on: 6/22/2017 3:35:42 PM
This is from Hancock’s JCCW testimony regarding a counterattack:

”I may say one thing here: I think it was probably an unfortunate thing that I was wounded at the time I was, and equally unfortunate that General Gibbon was also wounded, because the absence of a prominent commander, who knew the circumstances thoroughly, at such a moment as that, was a great disadvantage. I think that our lines should have advanced immediately, and I believe we should have won a great victory. I was very confident that the advance would be made. General Meade told me before the fight that if the enemy attacked me he intended to put the 5th and 6th corps on the enemy's flank; I therefore, when I was wounded, and lying down in my ambulance and about leaving the field, dictated a note to General Meade, and told him if he would put in the 5th and 6th corps I believed he would win a great victory.”

He also related:

”When this assault first commenced I was on the extreme left of our line. As soon as I saw the skirmishers coming over the hill I knew the assault was coming, and I followed it up to see where it was going to strike, and as I passed General Caldwell, who commanded the left division of the 2d corps, i told him this: "If the enemy's attack strikes further to your right I want you to attack on their flank; why I say so is this—you will find the 5th and 6th corps on your left, and they will help you." He did not attack on their flank; why, I do not know. Perhaps it would not have been wise for him to do so, because the 5th and 6th corps did not make the movement.”

Had Caldwell attacked he might have had a rough time of it.


Meade testified:

”As soon as the assault was repulsed, I went immediately to the extreme left of my line, with the determination of advancing the left and making an assault upon the enemy's lines. So soon as I arrived at the left I gave the necessary orders for the pickets and skirmishers in front to be thrown forward to feel the enemy, and for all preparations to be made for the assault. The great length of the line, and the time required to carry these orders out to the front, and the movement subsequently made, before the report given to me of the condition of the forces in the front and left, caused it to be so late in the evening as to induce me to abandon the assault which I had contemplated.”

Considering that he had not informed either Sedgwick or Sykes of his intention to counterattack, and to make the required preparations, not to mention the fact that the 6th Corps was spread all over the Federal position, and he took the time to tour his line, it is not surprising that time ran out.
---------------
VR, Rick Schaus

"When things go wrong in your command, start searching for the reason in increasingly large circles around your own desk."
-- Gen. Bruce Clarke

Jim Cameron
North Bellmore, NY, USA
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant


Posts: 673

Re: Picketts Charge
Posted on: 6/22/2017 5:46:21 PM
Makes one wonder just how aware Hancock was of the dispositions and availability of the 5th and 6th Corps.
---------------
Jim Cameron

Every time I go to Gettysburg, I learn two things. Something new, and, how much I still don't know.

Rick Schaus
Capon Springs, WV, USA
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant


Posts: 548

Re: Picketts Charge
Posted on: 6/22/2017 6:00:27 PM

Quote:
Makes one wonder just how aware Hancock was of the dispositions and availability of the 5th and 6th Corps.
--Jim Cameron

Hancock didn’t need to be aware of the dispositions and availability of the 5th and 6th Corps.
Those were Meade’s responsibilities.

Hancock was reacting to what Meade had told him that morning.

---------------
VR, Rick Schaus

"When things go wrong in your command, start searching for the reason in increasingly large circles around your own desk."
-- Gen. Bruce Clarke

Larry Purtell
USA
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E-7 Sgt First Class


Posts: 486

Re: Picketts Charge
Posted on: 6/22/2017 6:44:05 PM

Quote:
Makes one wonder just how aware Hancock was of the dispositions and availability of the 5th and 6th Corps.
--Jim Cameron



My feelings exactly Jim. I think Hancock's view of a counterattack is more fantasy than reality.

Larry
---------------
"My goal is to live forever. So far, so good.

Phil Andrade
London, UK
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Posts: 2527

Re: Picketts Charge
Posted on: 6/23/2017 4:52:07 AM
Gettysburg is often compared with Waterloo.

Meade is bound to suffer in such a comparison; Wellington sensed the opportune moment and smashed the enemy after an intense and desperate defensive battle on his part.

Of course, the arrival of Blucher had something to do with it, as Pickett himself might have said.

Had Hancock sensed a Waterloo moment, even in the shock of being gravely wounded?

Regards , Phil
---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

Rick Schaus
Capon Springs, WV, USA
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant


Posts: 548

Re: Picketts Charge
Posted on: 6/23/2017 2:12:26 PM
Jim and Larry,

You’re criticizing Hancock for believing, and then acting on what Meade had told him?
”General Meade told me before the fight that if the enemy attacked me he intended to put the 5th and 6th corps on the enemy's flank;”
It was Meade’s idea.

Where exactly is the fantasy on Hancock’s part?
Hancock was being Hancock.

Hancock would have expected that Meade had issued or would issue, prior to any attack on Hancock, something called a ‘plan’ for the counterattack to the commander(s) involved.


And, as I posted earlier, Meade, who should have been aware of the location of his corps, testified that he intended to counterattack, and had issued orders ”for all preparations to be made for the assault.”.

Any fantasy here would be Meade’s expecting that somehow, without any prior notification, Sedgwick would be able to unexpectedly quickly organize and launch a successful two corps counterattack.
Sadly, that is what Meade expected.

According to Hancock, in his JCCW testimony, Meade blamed the troops of the 5th & 6th Corps:
”General Meade gave the order for the 5th and 6th corps to advance, but he said the troops were so slow in moving that they allowed the remaining hours of daylight to pass by before much was accomplished.”
---------------
VR, Rick Schaus

"When things go wrong in your command, start searching for the reason in increasingly large circles around your own desk."
-- Gen. Bruce Clarke

Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
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E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 2851

Re: Picketts Charge
Posted on: 6/23/2017 2:31:22 PM
I know Hancock was much respected as a very competent battlefield officer,

by his counter parts of the ANV, just ask Longstreet!

MD
---------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
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Posts: 6032
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Re: Picketts Charge
Posted on: 6/23/2017 2:39:03 PM
Rick- I have given to understand that Meade had no plan to counter any Confederate attack-indeed he was apparently in no position to so do after Pickets Charge and Lee's retreat-hence Lincoln's bewilderment.Is this where 5th and 6th Corps were to be involved ?????

It has also been put to me that any "follow up" of Lee's retreating army would have been fruitless, and have been more bother than it was worth in the long run.Was there a limited follow up.???

I would be most grateful to be set straight on this matter.

My Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

Phil Andrade
London, UK
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Re: Picketts Charge
Posted on: 6/23/2017 3:26:12 PM
How much "grip" on the battle could Meade exercise compared with Wellington at Waterloo?

Half a century is a long time in terms of nineteenth century warfare ; although both Gettysburg and Waterloo were black powder muzzle loading affairs - albeit more rifled in 1863 .

Wellington fought a battle which was - to a large degree - under his direct personal surveillance. The area of the actual battlefield was astonishingly small for such a mighty concentration of men, horses and cannons.

A significant degree of dispersal had occurred fifty years later, although by twentieth century standards Gettysburg exhibits primitive black powder traits of mass.

I wonder, though, how far Meade was struggling to formulate a coherent assessment of what was happening on a battlefield that - although panoramic by the standards of that war - extended over several miles of frontage and was fought in a remarkably disjointed and haphazard manner.

The Waterloo moment is harder to discern in such circumstances.

Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

Larry Purtell
USA
top 20
E-7 Sgt First Class


Posts: 486

Re: Picketts Charge
Posted on: 6/23/2017 7:03:57 PM
Had the PPT assault been successful, as a second wave, what troops would Lee have expected to follow up? Posey, Mahone and Thomas come to mind. Yet if they advance and fail this leaves a huge hole in the ANV line which cannot be filled.

Larry.
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"My goal is to live forever. So far, so good.

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