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The current time is: 9/9/2010 6:51:57 AM
 (1863) Battle of Gettysburg
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Larry Purtell
Little Meadows, PA, USA
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E-6 Staff Sergeant


Posts: 719

VIEWS OF LEE'S INVASION.
Posted on: 7/13/2010 7:37:43 AM

VIEWS OF LEE'S INVASION.
Published: July 13, 1863




The news of the invasion of the North by LEE's army attracts great attention in the English journals. The London Times concludes an article on the subject as follows:

"Whether the invasion can be made effective will depend principally on HOOKER's army. If he can march into Maryland and Pennsylvania, or if he can succeed in detaining a large force of LEE's army behind in Virginia, the bold detachments which have pushed their way so far into the North will be obliged, after all, to retire, and the expedition will have been nothing but a raid on a larger scale than usual. It is obvious that LEE cannot well throw his whole army over the Potomac if he leaves HOOKER behind to intercept his communications, and perhaps menace Richmond. The most important point, therefore, which has to be decided at present is the position of Gen. LEE, and of that we know unfortunately next to nothing. HOOKER's headquarters, by the last advices, were at Warrenton, and it was reported that LEE had cut off the whole of the Sixth army corps by a flank march. From these and other statements, it would seem that HOOKER is making the best of his way back to Washington, and that LEE, with the main body of his army, amounting to about 70,000 men, is on his flank. It is obvious that the Confederates, as usual, have been able to keep their adversaries in complete ignorance of their movements, and if LEE can fall upon HOOKER's army while it is making its way back to Washington, and crush it, or drive it home as he did POPE's last year, there is nothing to prevent his holding his ground in Maryland and Pennsylvania, or Ohio. It must be added, too, that HOOKER's army is the last to which the North can look for support. The South need not fear the creation, at least for some time, of any new Army of the Potomac. There are not even the beaten regiments which enabled MCCLELLAN to form an army after the crushing defeats of last year and to arrest a less formidable invasion. While the President is talking of negro soldiers and hesitating to enforce the Conscription, and is unable to obtain even six months' service from the militia, the trained soldiers of the South are surrounding him and the most flourishing cities of the North. He has only a beaten army to depend upon to save his own country from the miseries which his policy has inflicted upon another."

Elsewhere the Times says:

"If the Confederates can only make this invasion really effective, and can force on the Northern States the necessity of themselves fighting for desolated homes and wasted territories, they will do more to produce disgust and weariness of the war than any number of defeats in Virginia, or the slaughter of whole regiments of Irish and Germans would produce."

The New-York correspondent of the London Times writes: "Almost every one sees that, if Gen. LEE gains a decisive victory over HOOKER, which he is very likely to do, the cause of the North is virtually lost, and the Confederate General will be able to dictate the terms of the peace for which the Northern heart has begun to experience so decided a yearning."

The Daily News thinks that LEE must be seeking to take advantage of the recent defection in HOOKER's army by the retirement of the two years' and nine months' men, but it does not see what permanent advantage can accrue to the South from the invasion. It believes that the movement will bring the North to a sense of its danger, and create renewed efforts to bring the war to a close.

The Morning Star says it hears of the Confederate invasion without surprise or regret. It excites a salutary alarm, and does not doubt that the defeat of the invaders will be the victory of peace.

The Globe remarks that the present invasion of the North is no mere raid -- no large reconnaissance feeling its way, and altogether depending upon what may turn up. It is an invasion of Napoleonic dimensions, and upon its success or failure will, in all livelihood, depend the prolongation of the contest.
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"My goal is to live forever. So far, so good.

mike plunkett
Woodbury, NJ, USA
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Re: VIEWS OF LEE'S INVASION.
Posted on: 7/13/2010 8:32:09 AM
QUOTE-
Elsewhere the Times says:

"If the Confederates can only make this invasion really effective, and can force on the Northern States the necessity of themselves fighting for desolated homes and wasted territories, they will do more to produce disgust and weariness of the war than any number of defeats in Virginia, or the slaughter of whole regiments of Irish and Germans would produce."

This is very interesting. The Times is clearly denigrating the immigrants in the Union army and implying that the Union does not value their lives. This is almost Freudian in that it more clearly reflects England's view of using the Irish in their wars than showing the true views of America at that time.

Ken250k
NY, NY, USA
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Posts: 105

Larry
Posted on: 7/13/2010 6:59:24 PM
Hi,

Thanks for posting that.

No shortage of laconic 'ifs' in those reports.

Good Luck, Ken.

Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 1382

Re: Larry
Posted on: 7/14/2010 7:18:56 AM
Larry,

Great post on the London Times, It's an interresting perspective, that of the English. They would look at developments fron a distance with the big picture involving all the players!? Feel free to post more from English newspapers like the London Times!?

regards,
MD

PS How did you access this source?
---------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

john malone
Cochranville, PA, USA
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E-7 Sgt First Class


Posts: 973

Re: Larry
Posted on: 7/14/2010 12:36:08 PM
...... and why are those Irish and German immigrants fighting?
...... is it for the Negroes?
Ironic isn't that the Irish and German immigrants are viewed as a lowly cast, and they could possibly be fighting for the Negroe?

Has our society views on the classes of people changed much over the years? Not the specific nationalities, but just the classes.

John M
---------------
Actions speak louder than words.

Wayne Wachsmuth
Shippensburg, PA, USA
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Posts: 269

Re: Larry
Posted on: 7/14/2010 12:43:24 PM
John,

I would think that the $13 a month private's pay in the army had a great deal to do with it. While that seems a pittance today it would have looked pretty good to a new immigrant with few or no connections in a new country, especially those looked down on as being somehow "inferior".

Wayne

john malone
Cochranville, PA, USA
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E-7 Sgt First Class


Posts: 973

Re: Larry
Posted on: 7/14/2010 1:05:32 PM
Wayne,

So things haven't changed much! hahaha

John M
---------------
Actions speak louder than words.

joe mieczkowski
Fairfield, PA, USA
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E-4 Specialist


Posts: 327

Longstreets own view
Posted on: 7/24/2010 8:19:15 AM
James Longstreet
to
Augustus Baldwin Longstreet


Camp, Culpeper Courthouse [Va.]

July 24, 1863

To A. B. Longstreet, LL. D.,

Columbus, Ga.

My Dear Uncle:

Your letters of the 13th and 14th were received on yesterday. As to our late battle [near Gettysburg, Pennsylvania], I cannot say much. I have no right to say anything, in fact, but will venture a little for you alone. If it goes to aunt and cousins, it must be under promise that it will go no further.

The battle was not made as I would have made it. My idea was to throw ourselves between the enemy and Washington, select a strong position, and force the enemy to attack us. So far as is given to man the ability to judge, we may say with confidence that we should have destroyed the Federal army, marched into Washington, and dictated our terms, or, at least, held Washington and marched over as much of Pennsylvania as we cared to, had we drawn the enemy into attack upon our carefully chosen position in his rear.

General Lee chose the plans adopted; and he is the person appointed to choose and to order. I consider it a part of my duty to express my views to the Commanding-General. If he approves and adopts them, it is well; if he does not, it is my duty adopt his views, and to execute his orders as faithfully as if they were my own. I cannot help but think that great results would have been obtained had my views been thought better of; yet I am much inclined to accept the present condition as for the best. I hope and trust that it is so. Your programme would all be well enough, had it been practicable; and was duly thought of, too. I fancy that no good ideas upon that campaign will be mentioned at any time that did not receive their share of consideration by General Lee. The few things that he might have overlooked himself were, I believe, suggested by myself. As we failed, I must take my share of the responsibility. In fact, I would prefer that all the blame should rest upon me. As General Lee is our commander, he should have the support and influence we can give him. If the blame (if there is any) can be shifted from him to me, I shall help him and our cause by taking it. I desire, therefore, that all the responsibility that can be put upon me shall go there and shall remain there. The truth will be known in time, and I leave that to show how much of the responsibility of Gettysburg rests on my shoulders. . . .

Most affectionately yours,

J. Longstreet




"General James Longstreet’s Account of the Campaign and Battle," Southern Historical Society Papers
---------------
You scratch my back, I'll scratch yours. -- Simon Cameron


tom ryan
Bethany Beach, DE, USA
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Posts: 254

Re: Larry
Posted on: 7/25/2010 5:41:16 AM
One of the strongest motivating factors for the Irish emigrating to America during our Civil War was a reprise of the famine experienced so terribly during 1840's (the Great Famine) During the early 1860's another famine was underway driving people to emigrate by the tens of thousands.

Ironically, many of the Irish were sympathetic with the Southern cause and would have gone South rather than North except for two important reasons. First, the blockade prevented them from going South, and secondly jobs were much more readily available in the North.

When they arrived, the dirt poor young Irish males were recruited for the army on the docks because of the pay and monetary incentives being offered, and the added benefit of an early opportunity for citizenship for service in the military.

Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 1382

Re: Longstreets own view
Posted on: 7/25/2010 7:39:34 AM

Quote:
James Longstreet
to
Augustus Baldwin Longstreet


Camp, Culpeper Courthouse [Va.]

July 24, 1863

To A. B. Longstreet, LL. D.,

Columbus, Ga.

My Dear Uncle:

Your letters of the 13th and 14th were received on yesterday. As to our late battle [near Gettysburg, Pennsylvania], I cannot say much. I have no right to say anything, in fact, but will venture a little for you alone. If it goes to aunt and cousins, it must be under promise that it will go no further.

The battle was not made as I would have made it. My idea was to throw ourselves between the enemy and Washington, select a strong position, and force the enemy to attack us. So far as is given to man the ability to judge, we may say with confidence that we should have destroyed the Federal army, marched into Washington, and dictated our terms, or, at least, held Washington and marched over as much of Pennsylvania as we cared to, had we drawn the enemy into attack upon our carefully chosen position in his rear.

General Lee chose the plans adopted; and he is the person appointed to choose and to order. I consider it a part of my duty to express my views to the Commanding-General. If he approves and adopts them, it is well; if he does not, it is my duty adopt his views, and to execute his orders as faithfully as if they were my own. I cannot help but think that great results would have been obtained had my views been thought better of; yet I am much inclined to accept the present condition as for the best. I hope and trust that it is so. Your programme would all be well enough, had it been practicable; and was duly thought of, too. I fancy that no good ideas upon that campaign will be mentioned at any time that did not receive their share of consideration by General Lee. The few things that he might have overlooked himself were, I believe, suggested by myself. As we failed, I must take my share of the responsibility. In fact, I would prefer that all the blame should rest upon me. As General Lee is our commander, he should have the support and influence we can give him. If the blame (if there is any) can be shifted from him to me, I shall help him and our cause by taking it. I desire, therefore, that all the responsibility that can be put upon me shall go there and shall remain there. The truth will be known in time, and I leave that to show how much of the responsibility of Gettysburg rests on my shoulders. . . .

Most affectionately yours,

J. Longstreet




"General James Longstreet’s Account of the Campaign and Battle," Southern Historical Society Papers
--joe mieczkowski



Hi Joe,

What an eye opening historic letter! What I wouldn't give to own it! Longstreet is being noble here accepting the blame, but you can clearly see he feels his suggestion of fighting the Union Army north of DC on Southern terms would have won the war for the Confederacy! One wonders if with JEB Stuarts reconaissaince if the South had gone around the Union army instead of blindly confront it in early July 1863. Picked a extremely defendable field of the high ground. Would they indeed won their indpendence? It would haunt Longstreet to his grave?

great letter,
regards,
Dave

PS I wonder what area had the South got to 1st would have been the best place for them to fight? Has anyone ever pondered if Lee had taken General James suggestion, Where would they have fought the AoP?
---------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

Red Bailey
Dewey, AZ, USA
top 20
E-7 Sgt First Class


Posts: 840

Re: Longstreets own view
Posted on: 7/25/2010 11:43:07 AM
Perhaps his allegiance to the 'Cause' and love/respect for General Lee prompted the letter, but Longstreet is wishfully thinking that his 'strategy' could have been successful. In the absence of Stuart, there was never a chance that Lee would gamble on that slide south. One can ponder the 'what-ifs', but Lee had to deal with the realities of his situation, and in lieu of having reliable intel during those crucial hours.
---------------
'War is often the result of the failure to reason' - Anonymous

As usual,
Red

jthlmnn
Milwaukee, WI, USA
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Posts: 137

Re: Larry
Posted on: 8/11/2010 11:24:22 AM

Quote:

Ironically, many of the Irish were sympathetic with the Southern cause and would have gone South rather than North except for two important reasons. First, the blockade prevented them from going South, and secondly jobs were much more readily available in the North.

--tom ryan


I would be very interested in the evidence/sources you have for the leaning of sympathies held by the Irish immigrants of that era. I am an avid student of the role of immigrant soldiers and familiar with the political leanings of the earlier immigrants, as their longer presence in the U.S. left more letters, newspaper accounts & editorials, etc. More resources, leading to a broader understanding, are always appreciated. JohnT

Larry Purtell
Little Meadows, PA, USA
top 25
E-6 Staff Sergeant


Posts: 719

Re: Larry
Posted on: 8/11/2010 12:05:09 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Ironically, many of the Irish were sympathetic with the Southern cause and would have gone South rather than North except for two important reasons. First, the blockade prevented them from going South, and secondly jobs were much more readily available in the North.

--tom ryan


I would be very interested in the evidence/sources you have for the leaning of sympathies held by the Irish immigrants of that era. I am an avid student of the role of immigrant soldiers and familiar with the political leanings of the earlier immigrants, as their longer presence in the U.S. left more letters, newspaper accounts & editorials, etc. More resources, leading to a broader understanding, are always appreciated. JohnT
--jthlmnn


I find it extremely hard to believe that Irish immigrints who had been under the British heel in Ireland would support the South in their war to keep the slaves under their heel. Trade one despot for another?
---------------
"My goal is to live forever. So far, so good.

tom ryan
Bethany Beach, DE, USA
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E-2 Private
Posts: 254

Re: Larry
Posted on: 8/11/2010 12:40:52 PM
"I would be very interested in the evidence/sources you have for the leaning of sympathies held by the Irish immigrants of that era."

John and Larry,

"I would be very interested in the evidence/sources you have for the leaning of sympathies held by the Irish immigrants of that era."
John and Larry,
About 10 years ago, I wrote an article "Out of Ireland into the Union Army: the battle over Irish emigration." Could not find a publisher in the U.S., so a contact in Ireland recommended I send it to the Journal of the Military History Society of Ireland for publication in their journal called The Irish Sword. Just so happened that the editor was happy to receive the article, since he planned an entire issue on the American Civil War. This came out in Summer 2002 with my article included.
During the research for this article, I found that there was a considerable amount of sympathy toward the Southern cause in Ireland, since the people somehow related their own subjugation to the English to the South's desire for independence from the North in America. An extension of this feeling in Ireland was Pope Pius IX in Rome who also favored the South, and sympathized with those in Ireland who did the same. The Pope's reasons had more to do with his shrinking territory of the Papal States that were under duress from a variety of entities.
Symptomatic of the split in Ireland over the American Civil War were two exiled revolutionaries who, after escape from a colony in Australia, came to the U.S. Francis Meagher decided to support the North and his good friend and colleague in Ireland (name escapes me right now) joined the Southern cause. Blv the latter had three sons who served in the Confederate army.
My recollection is that in Ireland newspapers support was pretty much equally divided between favoring the North and South in America, which was a pretty good barometer of what the people themselves believed. One strong counterforce against emigration of young Irish males to America whether North or South were the Catholic priests who saw this as a threat to the size of their parishes. These priests cooperated with Confederate agents sent to Ireland with the expressed intent to disrupt the flow of these Irish males emigrating to the U.S. and joining the Union army. These agents were sent to Ireland by President Davis and Secretary of State Benjamin for this purpose.
A brief version of this article was published in The Washington Times on September 2, 2000.
Let me know if you would like more info on this subject.
Regards, Tom

Larry Purtell
Little Meadows, PA, USA
top 25
E-6 Staff Sergeant


Posts: 719

Re: Larry
Posted on: 8/11/2010 12:53:11 PM

Quote:
"I would be very interested in the evidence/sources you have for the leaning of sympathies held by the Irish immigrants of that era."

John and Larry,

"I would be very interested in the evidence/sources you have for the leaning of sympathies held by the Irish immigrants of that era."
John and Larry,
About 10 years ago, I wrote an article "Out of Ireland into the Union Army: the battle over Irish emigration." Could not find a publisher in the U.S., so a contact in Ireland recommended I send it to the Journal of the Military History Society of Ireland for publication in their journal called The Irish Sword. Just so happened that the editor was happy to receive the article, since he planned an entire issue on the American Civil War. This came out in Summer 2002 with my article included.
During the research for this article, I found that there was a considerable amount of sympathy toward the Southern cause in Ireland, since the people somehow related their own subjugation to the English to the South's desire for independence from the North in America. An extension of this feeling in Ireland was Pope Pius IX in Rome who also favored the South, and sympathized with those in Ireland who did the same. The Pope's reasons had more to do with his shrinking territory of the Papal States that were under duress from a variety of entities.
Symptomatic of the split in Ireland over the American Civil War were two exiled revolutionaries who, after escape from a colony in Australia, came to the U.S. Francis Meagher decided to support the North and his good friend and colleague in Ireland (name escapes me right now) joined the Southern cause. Blv the latter had three sons who served in the Confederate army.
My recollection is that in Ireland newspapers support was pretty much equally divided between favoring the North and South in America, which was a pretty good barometer of what the people themselves believed. One strong counterforce against emigration of young Irish males to America whether North or South were the Catholic priests who saw this as a threat to the size of their parishes. These priests cooperated with Confederate agents sent to Ireland with the expressed intent to disrupt the flow of these Irish males emigrating to the U.S. and joining the Union army. These agents were sent to Ireland by President Davis and Secretary of State Benjamin for this purpose.
A brief version of this article was published in The Washington Times on September 2, 2000.
Let me know if you would like more info on this subject.
Regards, Tom

--tom ryan


Absolutely Tom. All my GGgrandparents came here from Ireland and I have a great interest in Ireland and the Irish who settled in the United States.

Many Thanks, Larry
---------------
"My goal is to live forever. So far, so good.

tom ryan
Bethany Beach, DE, USA
New User
E-2 Private
Posts: 254

Re: Larry
Posted on: 8/11/2010 1:28:15 PM
Larry, you may want to try to get hold of a copy of the issue of The Irish Sword in order to read my article. It is Vol. XXIII, Summer 2002, No. 91. The title is Ireland and the American Civil War.

I do not believe it is readily available in the U.S., but you may want to go through interlibrary loan (ILL) to see if that system can acquire a copy.

Tom

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