| |
texasbob
Texas Hill Country, TX, USA
Posts: 622
 | | Counter-intelligence question | | Posted on: 7/26/2010 9:07:01 AM | Hello,
At the end of the Pipe Creek Circular (OR, 27, 3:459) occurs this statement:
All movements of troops should be concealed, and our dispositions kept from the enemy. Their knowledge of these dispositions would be fatal to our success, and the greatest care must be taken to prevent such an occurrence. By command of Major-General Meade.
Previously, in the orders for July 1 sent out on June 30 (OR, 27, 3:416), it was directed that:
The orders and movements from these headquarters must be carefully and confidentially preserved, that they do not fall into the enemy's hands. By command of Major-General Meade.
In a circa 1886 letter (Bachelder Papers, 3:1349), Hancock's aide LtCol Charles H. Morgan recalls the arrival at daylight on July 1 of "an order to move to Taneytown. Some fatality seemed to attend our dispatches at this important juncture. This one was written on the common tissue paper, and was accompanied by another demanding the exercise of the greatest caution by corps commanders to prevent the loss of dispatches." He further recalls that during a brief absence from his tent, this tissue evidently fell from a table onto damp grass, was stepped on by his servant, and became attached to the underside of his shoe. Morgan subsequently noticed the tissue was missing, traced it to his servant's shoe, remembered the gist of the order and relayed this to Hancock, then set off for Taneytown to acquire a new copy---the tissue, having become wet and then trampled, evidently had quickly turned to cellulose mush.
Morgan's recollection makes it appear as if this concern for message security was an innovation by Meade. Does anyone know if this is correct, or if previous AoP commanders had called for similar security measures? Also, does anyone know whether this practice was limited in time or whether it continued for the rest of the war?
If I remember correctly my research at the National Archives, there were quite a few Gettysburg-related documents on tissue. It is apparent, however, that a considerable number of orders and similar papers have been lost and never made it to the Archives. It seems likely that Meade directed the use of fragile tissue paper because it might easily be destroyed by a courier in danger of capture or by a commander having no further need for the document. Could this extensive use of tissue copies perhaps explain the absence of many orders from the Archives and the OR?
Of course, it could be that one of these tissues was used to blow a major-general's nose on, or to light a cigar. 
---------------
Cheers y'all,
And with full respect for all who fight the fight against obfuscation, the sowing of confusion, deception, falsification, fabrication, and other intellectual dishonesties,
texasbob
|
| Jim Cameron
North Bellmore, NY, USA
Posts: 940
| | Re: Counter-intelligence question | | Posted on: 7/26/2010 10:11:06 AM | That's why I say, what's in the OR is just what's in the OR. The reports and message there made it in. Who knows what didn't? And that's not even counting all the verbal messages. For every written order preserved in the OR's, there could have been a aide who delivered it, telling the recepient, "And the General told me to be sure to tell you....."
---------------
Jim Cameron
Every time I go to Gettysburg, I learn two things. Something new, and, how much I still don't know.
|
| texasbob
Texas Hill Country, TX, USA
Posts: 622
| | Re: Counter-intelligence question | | Posted on: 7/26/2010 10:46:52 AM |
Quote:That's why I say, what's in the OR is just what's in the OR. The reports and messages there made it in. Who knows what didn't? And that's not even counting all the verbal messages. For every written order preserved in the OR's, there could have been a aide who delivered it, telling the recipient, "And the General told me to be sure to tell you....."
--Jim Cameron
Yep, just like Reynolds' alleged message to Sickles via Tremain. Who knows?
This entire intel/cointel business is something I've never explored. But I'm sort of wondering not so much about informal (if frequent) practice, but about whether Meade instituted a tissue-based system aimed at preventing loss of critical information. Codes were cumbersome and slow, making them less than ideal for field use. Signals sent by signal stations could often be intercepted and perhaps read. Especially after Antietam it should have dawned on some bright Yankee that there needed to be greater message security.
I'm going to have another look at Tom Ryan's recent article to see if Lee and his team addressed this issue...and if so, how?
---------------
Cheers y'all,
And with full respect for all who fight the fight against obfuscation, the sowing of confusion, deception, falsification, fabrication, and other intellectual dishonesties,
texasbob
|
| Jim Cameron
North Bellmore, NY, USA
Posts: 940
| | Re: Counter-intelligence question | | Posted on: 7/26/2010 11:24:08 AM | Having no idea what normal procedure was, especially for messages sent while on active campaign where the danger of capture existed, I'd wonder if this was a system Meade instituted, or, if it was one which already existed.
Morgan described the dispatch as having been written on "the common tissue paper." This would seem to imply that HQ was equipped with a stock of such paper, probably for this specific purpose. (I don't think that facial tissues such as we now know them existed at the time.) Of course, he also said the "this one" was on tissue paper, which could indicate that the practice was either somewhat uncommon, or at least, not universally employed. Or perhaps it was merely by way of setting up the description of how it ended up stuck to his servant's shoe.
---------------
Jim Cameron
Every time I go to Gettysburg, I learn two things. Something new, and, how much I still don't know.
|
| texasbob
Texas Hill Country, TX, USA
Posts: 622
| | Re: Counter-intelligence question | | Posted on: 7/26/2010 11:47:08 AM |
Quote:Having no idea what normal procedure was, especially for messages sent while on active campaign where the danger of capture existed, I'd wonder if this was a system Meade instituted, or, if it was one which already existed.
Morgan described the dispatch as having been written on "the common tissue paper." This would seem to imply that HQ was equipped with a stock of such paper, probably for this specific purpose. (I don't think that facial tissues such as we now know them existed at the time.) Of course, he also said the "this one" was on tissue paper, which could indicate that the practice was either somewhat uncommon, or at least, not universally employed. Or perhaps it was merely by way of setting up the description of how it ended up stuck to his servant's shoe.
--Jim Cameron
Certainly not today's "tissue" paper, whether meant for nose, hands or posterior. But something more like onionskin (is it still made?), though I think somewhat thinner than onionskin.
IT's the close conjunction of Morgan's implication that the use of tissue paper for this use was new together with his observation about the command's newly announced security concerns that intrigues me.
I have a suspicion that the tissue paper had been around for a long time, but used to make and keep copies for HQ use, not for field distribution ... and that this was a quick-fix change to improve security.
---------------
Cheers y'all,
And with full respect for all who fight the fight against obfuscation, the sowing of confusion, deception, falsification, fabrication, and other intellectual dishonesties,
texasbob
|
| Red Bailey
Dewey, AZ, USA
Posts: 840
| | Re: Counter-intelligence question | | Posted on: 7/26/2010 12:29:46 PM | McElfresh's book on maps and mapmakers during the war mentions "tracing paper", which must have been heavier than "tissue paper", much like today's tracing papers.
---------------
'War is often the result of the failure to reason' - Anonymous
As usual,
Red
|
| Jim Cameron
North Bellmore, NY, USA
Posts: 940
| | Re: Counter-intelligence question | | Posted on: 7/26/2010 12:47:52 PM | It would have to have been at least reasonably subtantial, to stand up to being written on with manual writing implements of the time.
---------------
Jim Cameron
Every time I go to Gettysburg, I learn two things. Something new, and, how much I still don't know.
|
| Scott Mingus
York, PA, USA
Posts: 578
 
| | Re: Counter-intelligence question | | Posted on: 7/26/2010 2:10:20 PM | As a papermaker (I am the R&D director for Glatfelter Paper), tissue is a rather generic term that has come over the years to mean all sorts of light weight papers. Tissues also include certain industrial grades, as well as a special category of "Thin Print" printing and writing papers such as still we make at paper mills for special applications.
I am certain it is this grade that the Civil War officers would have used. It's very similar to the paper that businesses commonly use for their prospectus offerings to stock holders. Not really onionskin from a technical perspective as it has slightly different paper properties and expectations.
See [Read More]
The 30# paper would be somewhat analogous to the writing tissue of the Civil War era, which was slightly lighter in weight than our current Stabilite grade.
As a side point, local paper mills throughout south-central PA were readily robbed of their inventories by passing soldiers from both armies. The mills at Mount Holly Springs were particularly hard hit, as were the mills here in York County. The 35th Battalion, Virginia Cavalry (White's Comanches) camped here in Spring Grove about a mile from the mill where I work (which was operational in 1863 as the Hauer Paper Mill). Glatfelter bought it in December 1863.
---------------
I asked God, "How much time do I have before I die?" He replied, "Enough to make a difference."
Unknown author
|
| texasbob
Texas Hill Country, TX, USA
Posts: 622
| | Re: Counter-intelligence question | | Posted on: 7/26/2010 2:57:38 PM |
Quote:(I am the R&D director for Glatfelter Paper)
--Scott Mingus
Hello Scott,
Thanks for the info.
I remember Glatfelter Paper quite well. Nice goods, not so nice air. Whenever we approached Spring Grove (usually going between York and Hanover) I was always glad that the car windows rolled up tightly and that we could shut off the flow of outside air. Unpleasant as the air was, though, it was not as bad as that in Nitro, West Virginia or other chemical and metallurgical towns and their environs along the Kanawha River. In West Virginia my younger daughter used to hold her breath and her baby doll's nose when we drove near any of the plants; at Spring Grove, though, she only held Baby Tender Love's nose. I thought of that as her vote of relative confidence in Glatfelter.
Cheers
---------------
Cheers y'all,
And with full respect for all who fight the fight against obfuscation, the sowing of confusion, deception, falsification, fabrication, and other intellectual dishonesties,
texasbob
|
| Rick Schaus
Capon Springs, WV, USA
Posts: 504
| | Re: Counter-intelligence question | | Posted on: 7/26/2010 3:20:45 PM | Hi,
BG Seth Williams related that orders ware usually made out in manifold to save time.
Manifold copies, in my time, ware much flimsier than the paper stock that the original document was typed or written on.
VR, Rick Schaus
|
| tom ryan
Bethany Beach, DE, USA
Posts: 254
| | Re: Counter-intelligence question | | Posted on: 7/26/2010 4:15:47 PM | Don't know much about the tissue question, other than the common use of tracing paper in the field especially for maps. This was used because reproduction equipment was too cumbersome to take along on field ops.
Other counterintel methods: After Lee learned about his lost orders at Antietam, he cautioned his subordinates to read and absorb his orders, and then destroy them lest they fall into the hands of the enemy. For example, see Lee's message to John Imboden (OR, 27, III, pp. 905-906).
Both sides practiced disinformation as a form of counterintel. They would give out false info to local citizens fully aware that it would be passed along to the enemy military, and planted stories in the friendly press which was avidly read for useful info by both Yankees and Rebels. Lee in particular sent "deserters" into Union lines to pass along misleading information.
Operational counterintel came in the form of skirmishers/sharpshooters trained to screen the army's movements from the eyes of the enemy -- also one of the cavalry's primary functions.
Both sides also attempted to limit leaks through the press, but found that a tough row to hoe. Hooker went so far as to issue formal directives to newspaper editors about what they could and could not print. One of his innovations was to require a byline by reporters in order to trace back info that should not have been published. Lee complained to President Davis about leaks in the press.
Another common form of counterintel was clamping down on movements of the local population in an attempt to limit knowledge of operational movements.
In Pennsylvania, the populations natural fear of retaliation kept them from helping friendly military in some cases. Buford complained bitterly about this while moving toward Gettysburg. He believed he could have captured the Rebel force at Fairfield if only the locals were willing to inform him of their presence.
|
| texasbob
Texas Hill Country, TX, USA
Posts: 622
| | Re: Counter-intelligence question | | Posted on: 7/26/2010 4:37:08 PM |
Quote:
In Pennsylvania, the populations natural fear of retaliation kept them from helping friendly military in some cases. Buford complained bitterly about this while moving toward Gettysburg. He believed he could have captured the Rebel force at Fairfield if only the locals were willing to inform him of their presence.
--tom ryan
In general for the region and without specific regard to Fairfield: the reticence was perhaps more likely due to many folks in some communities having pro-CSA sympathies than fear of retaliation by CSA military forces. Fear of retaliation by pro-CSA neighbors perhaps was at work too in some areas. Just a guess....
And I suspect that civilians in general prefer to see armies move through and away quickly, because their staying threatens homes to farms and homes, leads to theft and killing,etc. NIMBY as they say today....
---------------
Cheers y'all,
And with full respect for all who fight the fight against obfuscation, the sowing of confusion, deception, falsification, fabrication, and other intellectual dishonesties,
texasbob
|
| Jim Cameron
North Bellmore, NY, USA
Posts: 940
| | Re: Counter-intelligence question | | Posted on: 7/26/2010 6:53:30 PM |
Quote:Hi,
BG Seth Williams related that orders ware usually made out in manifold to save time.
Manifold copies, in my time, ware much flimsier than the paper stock that the original document was typed or written on.
VR, Rick Schaus
--Rick Schaus
I seem to recall reading that in the Navy, the duplicate copies of message traffic were (are?) referred to as "flimsies", for that very reason.
Am I right about that?
---------------
Jim Cameron
Every time I go to Gettysburg, I learn two things. Something new, and, how much I still don't know.
|
| Rick Schaus
Capon Springs, WV, USA
Posts: 504
| | Re: Counter-intelligence question | | Posted on: 7/26/2010 7:52:23 PM |
Quote:
I seem to recall reading that in the Navy, the duplicate copies of message traffic were (are?) referred to as "flimsies", for that very reason.
Am I right about that?
--Jim Cameron
Hi,
Jim, when I read your above post, about three or four brain cells woke up.
As I recall, in the Army, we also used the term "flimsies" when referring to manifold copies, or copies under the first page of a form.
Don't ask me when that was, because it was some time back, longer than I care to admit.
VR, Rick Schaus
|
| texasbob
Texas Hill Country, TX, USA
Posts: 622
| | Re: Counter-intelligence question | | Posted on: 7/26/2010 7:55:18 PM | Hello.
Jim, Rick, etc:
I'm sure I've read somewhere that as of 1863 the armies had some sort of device for making copies. Not a typewriter (not yet invented). Nor was there carbon paper yet. Does anyone know what the device was and how it worked to make copies? What kinds of paper could be used? I would expect a small press to be too tough on flimsy paper.
Or were multiple copies of orders made by hand? This seems highly inefficient and hence most doubtful to me, but I certainly can't rule it out. If so, would pen and ink have been required? Or could pencil be used?
---------------
Cheers y'all,
And with full respect for all who fight the fight against obfuscation, the sowing of confusion, deception, falsification, fabrication, and other intellectual dishonesties,
texasbob
|
| tom ryan
Bethany Beach, DE, USA
Posts: 254
| | Re: Counter-intelligence question | | Posted on: 7/26/2010 9:48:36 PM | According to McElfresh, map reproduction was done by tracing, copying, photo reproduction, sun printing, and the most popular method the lithograph. Suspect one or more of these methods were used for messages as well.
|
| texasbob
Texas Hill Country, TX, USA
Posts: 622
| | Re: Counter-intelligence question | | Posted on: 7/27/2010 10:33:57 AM |
Quote:According to McElfresh, map reproduction was done by tracing, copying, photo reproduction, sun printing, and the most popular method the lithograph. Suspect one or more of these methods were used for messages as well.
--tom ryan
Thanks Tom et al,
Practical considerations would seem to rule out methods 1-4, which leaves us with lithography. So my question becomes, was "tissue" paper routinely used in lithography prior to Gettysburg, or was it initiated then? All this assumes that "tissue" paper could be used with lithograph machines of the day. And I suspect we're getting into an unanswerable area.....at least technically.
---------------
Cheers y'all,
And with full respect for all who fight the fight against obfuscation, the sowing of confusion, deception, falsification, fabrication, and other intellectual dishonesties,
texasbob
|
| Scott Brown
MA, USA
Posts: 317
| | Re: Counter-intelligence question | | Posted on: 7/27/2010 7:10:18 PM | Seth Williams mentioned orders "being made out in manifold in order to save time" in his CCCW testimony.
Regards,
Scott B.
Edit: Sorry, I just re-read Rick's post above.
---------------
"All this is pure invention."
|
| chuck
Gettysburg, PA, USA
Posts: 667
| | Re: Counter-intelligence question | | Posted on: 7/28/2010 8:40:19 PM |
In examining the Sickles Papers at the New York Public Library I came across several orders from AoP HQ pertaining to Gettysburg that were printed on very thin paper, roughly 5"x7." It led me to wonder whether there was a portable printing press that accompanied Army HQ.
---------------
"there has been much published about Gettysburg... endeavored to unravel the tangled skein, and state the true story of the battle. Whether this will ever be accomplished is a doubtful point..." James Beale, 1878
|
| Jim Cameron
North Bellmore, NY, USA
Posts: 940
| | Re: Counter-intelligence question | | Posted on: 7/29/2010 8:21:42 AM |
Quote:Quote: According to McElfresh, map reproduction was done by tracing, copying, photo reproduction, sun printing, and the most popular method the lithograph. Suspect one or more of these methods were used for messages as well.
--tom ryan Thanks Tom et al, Practical considerations would seem to rule out methods 1-4, which leaves us with lithography. So my question becomes, was "tissue" paper routinely used in lithography prior to Gettysburg, or was it initiated then? All this assumes that "tissue" paper could be used with lithograph machines of the day. And I suspect we're getting into an unanswerable area.....at least technically. --texasbob
Bob,
I recall reading somewhere along the line that army HQ (the AOP, at least) did have the ability to make photographic copies of maps while in the field, and, I believe it did also have some portable printing equipment. Just how portable, and to what extent it was used on active camapign, I'm not sure. Likewise, I'm not sure if there was any mechanical means of turning out multiple copies of handwritten documents. Or, if it was simply a matter of having one or more clerks copy it, one by one.
Just another one of the mundane details of HQ "housekeeping" now somewhat lost to us. Probably because it was so mundane as to hardly call for comment at the time.
---------------
Jim Cameron
Every time I go to Gettysburg, I learn two things. Something new, and, how much I still don't know.
|
| Ed Bell
PA, USA
Posts: 123
| | Re: Counter-intelligence question | | Posted on: 7/29/2010 9:26:27 AM | Jim,
I recall the same, and I too am not sure of where I read the information; I'm away from my sources, but it possibly may have been in Frassanito's Book in the maps section.
Ed Bell
---------------
“It's not what you look at that matters, it's what you see.” Thoreau
|
| Steve F
Hampstead, NH, USA
Posts: 1751
| | Re: Counter-intelligence question | | Posted on: 7/29/2010 9:34:23 AM | Jim and Ed,
Ditto on the photograph method, which may have involved a reverse process producing a "negative." And didn't George "Rock" Thomas perfect something toward the end of the war? Where did I read that?
Steve
---------------
"Live free or die. Death is not the worst of evils." Gen. John Stark
"I sure wish I lived closer. Have I said that before?" Steve F.
|
| texasbob
Texas Hill Country, TX, USA
Posts: 622
| | Re: Counter-intelligence question | | Posted on: 7/31/2010 5:34:51 PM | Hello.
Looks like I led myself and all you good folks off on something of a wild goose chase. Col.Morgan's comment indicates that the "tissue paper" was nothing new, just the emphasis on message security was somewhat new. So presumably Meade was just urging heightened consciousness and not necessarily new procedures or methods.
I promise to read more thoroughly in the future.
I promise to read more thoroughly in the future.
I promise to read more thoroughly in the future.
I promise to read more thoroughly in the future.
I promise to read more thoroughly in the future.
I promise to read more thoroughly in the future.
I promise to read more thoroughly in the future.
I promise to read more thoroughly in the future.
I promise to read more thoroughly in the future.
etc
---------------
Cheers y'all,
And with full respect for all who fight the fight against obfuscation, the sowing of confusion, deception, falsification, fabrication, and other intellectual dishonesties,
texasbob
|
| |
|
|
|