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John Gross
Pembroke Pines, FL, USA
Posts: 192
 | | E.P. Alexander letter on Pickett's Charge | | Posted on: 1/14/2013 3:51:51 PM | [Read More]
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My areas of expertise are firearms and Latin females. Not necessarily in that order.
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| Carl from Dewey
Arizona,
Posts: 258
| | Re: E.P. Alexander letter on Pickett's Charge | | Posted on: 1/15/2013 8:28:33 PM | Interesting and thanks for posting!
Zooming in and panning on the printed version of the letter, it is possible to read the entire text. Indeed only the part given in the description deals directly with the battle. Intriguing opinion, and interesting also that Porter did not visit the field until 1896, over thirty years after the battle.
I do wonder what Lee was thinking, being the engineer that he was. I'm guessing he had more faith in his artillery than was warranted.
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Neophyte. Have mercy.
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| phil andrade
London, UK
Posts: 2330
| | Re: E.P. Alexander letter on Pickett's Charge | | Posted on: 1/16/2013 5:48:10 AM |
Quote:I do wonder what Lee was thinking, being the engineer that he was. I'm guessing he had more faith in his artillery than was warranted.
--Carl from Dewey
To what degree do the exigencies of battle afford commanders the luxury of time to stop and think, especially in an encounter engagement ?
Of course, by Day Three the battle had developed from encounter fighting to more of a set piece, with armies in position.
I'm sure you're right, Carl, about the importance of misplaced reliance on the effects of artillery preparation.
I also beleive that Lee was not in possession of sufficient information regarding the extent of the damage suffered by units of Hill's Corps two days previously.
Lee was probably excercised by the consideration that by the end of Day Two his men had inflicted even more punishment than they had sustained : this is certainly born out by statistics, which indicate heavier Federal losses - even in proportionate terms. I think he was fully justified in seeking to try conclusions.
Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"
"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."
Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
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| Carl from Dewey
Arizona,
Posts: 258
| | Re: E.P. Alexander letter on Pickett's Charge | | Posted on: 1/16/2013 10:49:05 AM | Yes, Phil, I agree that Lee wanted to conclude the matter there and then (at Gettysburg).
And not to turn this thread into yet another critique of the Pickett's Charge decision, but I think Porter's opinion as to the point of attack may be valid, albeit in hindsight.
Indeed Lee was not in possession of sufficient information with which to make a calculated move. Therefore his move was evidently more guesswork. Therein lay the gargantuan risk.
I am simply saying that I would have thought Lee's engineering background would have dissuaded him from that point of attack based on what he could see with his own eyes. Indeed Longstreet told him there weren't enough men available to succeed. Therefore my conclusion is that he thought the cannonade would tip the balance. And yet the intrinsic weakness of the plan bespoke of something else, a rare lapse of judgement perhaps, on Lee's part.
Maybe the outcome was all due, as Shelby Foote puts it, to "the stars in their courses." I believe this. There were many factors, too many to control, putting both armies where they were at that date in history, July 3, 1863. And by this I mean geographically, spiritually, and leadership-wise.
In the end, I think it was a battle Lee could not win. I wonder what OTHER choices presented themselves to him on that morning, in his mind, or if he felt there were none.
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Neophyte. Have mercy.
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| Rick Schaus
Capon Springs, WV, USA
Posts: 1563
| | Re: E.P. Alexander letter on Pickett's Charge | | Posted on: 1/16/2013 1:24:55 PM | Alexander’s account in the letter is probably the same, or similar to the one in his Fighting for the Confederacy, which also includes a sketch map, which, I surmise is the same one included in the letter, referenced in the read more in the initial post.
The map is located on page 250 of FFtC
[Read More]
The link is to a limited view of the book, but the map and the related account can be read.
Using the column on the far right scroll down to page 250.
The narrative, on which I believe that the letter is based, begins at the end of page 251.
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VR, Rick Schaus
“Facts are for people who can’t create their own truth”
Bucky Katt
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| WhiteBird
Reno,
Posts: 51
| | Re: E.P. Alexander letter on Pickett's Charge | | Posted on: 1/27/2013 11:38:43 PM | Alexander said he was told post midnight, that the attack will be aimed at Cemetary Hill. In 1864 hearing, Hancock said it appeared the Rebels were angling toward the hill, until the gap appeared at the angle by Cushing's battery.
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| Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
Posts: 4983
| | Re: E.P. Alexander letter on Pickett's Charge | | Posted on: 1/28/2013 7:09:31 AM | Perhaps a little off topic but as far as artillery from the Union Perspective, Canister Fire really caused alot of casualties during Picket's Charge. Mean-while E P Alexander's Canon Barrage was going way over Union positions, you wonder why he didn't imploy better spotters to aid in accuracy? A lot of wasted ordinance!? Was wind direction ever recorded on day 3? Many historians say that porter couldn't tell he was fire-ing way to high because of smoke from the canons shielding his view? Yet we never hear of Union Artillery Officers having that problem? Why? BTW Who was the Union Artillery Commander at Gettysburg? It seems you don't hear much about him?
MD
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
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| littlepowell
SC, USA
Posts: 730
| | Re: E.P. Alexander letter on Pickett's Charge | | Posted on: 1/28/2013 8:31:30 AM |
Quote:Many historians say that porter couldn't tell he was fire-ing way to high because of smoke from the canons shielding his view
Yeah this claim has always confused me as well. Why was that never a problem earlier in the war? He didn't seem to fire too high at Chancellorsville when his artillery pounded the Union positions from Hazel Grove. I'm sure other examples can be made as well.. Why was Gettysburg any different..
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http://www.scourgeofwar.com/ - Gettysburg PC game from Norb Software Development.
Also checkout the Antietam and Chancellorsville expansions.
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| Wayne Wachsmuth
Shippensburg, PA, USA
Posts: 785
| | Re: E.P. Alexander letter on Pickett's Charge | | Posted on: 1/28/2013 8:43:21 AM | If his guns were firing shell and case they should have been firing "high". The optimum height for those rounds according to data in the artillery museum at Ft Monroe was 20 feet above the target and a fuse setting that would result in a burst about 20 yards before the round reached the target so momentum would carry the fragments into the target area. Only if they were firing solids would they be aiming directly at a target.
Wayne
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| Chuck
Gettysburg, PA, USA
Posts: 1697
| | Re: E.P. Alexander letter on Pickett's Charge | | Posted on: 1/28/2013 10:12:30 AM |
Quote:Why was Gettysburg any different.. --littlepowell
I think the reason was the duration of the firing, as the overshots apparently increased over time. Alexander thought, based upon previous experience, that the firing ought to be sufficient in the course of 15-20 minutes. We know, of course, it went far longer.
Extended firing meant more smoke, hence more obstruction to sightlines. Extended firing meant decreased efficiencies because of the exhaustion level and attrition among the cannon crews. Extended firing meant the ground behind the cannon was being further driven in by the trail during recoil, thus have the effect of elevating the muzzle slightly and causing overshots.
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"there has been much published about Gettysburg... endeavored to unravel the tangled skein, and state the true story of the battle. Whether this will ever be accomplished is a doubtful point..." James Beale, 1878
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| Wayne Wachsmuth
Shippensburg, PA, USA
Posts: 785
| | Re: E.P. Alexander letter on Pickett's Charge | | Posted on: 1/28/2013 11:02:03 AM | I have seen the theory of the trails "digging in" during extended firing many times but one would think that two years into the war experienced artillerymen would be familiar with the concept and compensate for it. It would seem that to assume they would be unaware of the phenomenon would be selling them short in the smarts department.
Wayne
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| Red Bailey
Prescott, AZ, USA
Posts: 2149
| | Re: E.P. Alexander letter on Pickett's Charge | | Posted on: 1/28/2013 1:15:31 PM | Dr. Jacobs recorded gentle SSW winds for Gettysburg on July 3rd. That would probably cause the smoke from Alexander's cannons to drift slowly across the fields and to probably cover the Union targets to some extent. Jacobs also recorded a sky "completely covered with cumulo-stratus clouds" at 8:00 AM reducing to just a 4/10ths cover at 2 PM.
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Human action can be modified to some extent, but human nature cannot be changed. ....Lincoln
As usual,
Red
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| scoucer
Berlin, Germany
Posts: 2240
| | Re: E.P. Alexander letter on Pickett's Charge | | Posted on: 1/28/2013 2:20:31 PM |
Quote:Dr. Jacobs recorded gentle SSW winds for Gettysburg on July 3rd. That would probably cause the smoke from Alexander's cannons to drift slowly across the fields and to probably cover the Union targets to some extent. Jacobs also recorded a sky "completely covered with cumulo-stratus clouds" at 8:00 AM reducing to just a 4/10ths cover at 2 PM.
--Red Bailey
Man eh ! Red, just where does all this amazing info come from ?
Completely impressed
Trevor
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`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie
Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.
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| littlepowell
SC, USA
Posts: 730
| | Re: E.P. Alexander letter on Pickett's Charge | | Posted on: 1/28/2013 3:05:36 PM |
Quote:Quote: Dr. Jacobs recorded gentle SSW winds for Gettysburg on July 3rd. That would probably cause the smoke from Alexander's cannons to drift slowly across the fields and to probably cover the Union targets to some extent. Jacobs also recorded a sky "completely covered with cumulo-stratus clouds" at 8:00 AM reducing to just a 4/10ths cover at 2 PM.
--Red Bailey Man eh ! Red, just where does all this amazing info come from ? Completely impressed Trevor --scoucer
Didn't you know? Red is a time traveler!
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http://www.scourgeofwar.com/ - Gettysburg PC game from Norb Software Development.
Also checkout the Antietam and Chancellorsville expansions.
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| Rick Schaus
Capon Springs, WV, USA
Posts: 1563
| | Re: E.P. Alexander letter on Pickett's Charge | | Posted on: 1/28/2013 3:46:18 PM | "the Battle of Gettysburg Resource Center
Weather During the Battle of Gettysburg
last revised 10/05/04
The following observations of weather conditions at Gettysburg for the period of the Confederate invasion during the period of June 25 to July 4 were recorded by Rev. Dr. Michael Jacobs a teacher at the College and an amatuer meteoroligist.
"The entire period of the invasion is remarkable for being one of clouds, and, for that season of the year, of low temperature. From June 15th until July 22nd, 1863, there was not an entirely clear day."
"On the evening of June 25th at 8 p.m. a rain began . . . This rain continued at intervals until Saturday June 27th, at 7 a.m., the perception being in inches 1.280. At all the observations made on Saturday and Sunday, and until the nine o'clock observation of Monday night, the entire sky was covered with clouds. On the day before the battle, both at 7 a.m., and 2 p.m., the obscuration was again complete, with cumulo-stratus clouds moving from SSE. At 9 p.m., only four-tenths of the heavens were covered. . . . the records of the wind are those of almost entire calm."
Temperatures For The Days Prior To The Battle
7 A.M. 2 P.M. 9 P.M.
June 25 59 51 63
June 26 60 63 62
June 27 61 63 67
June 28 63 67 68
June 29 66 72 69
June 30 68 79 71
Dr. Jacobs recorded the following details of the weather for the days of the battle, including June 30:
June 30:
Complete Cloud cover all day, partly cleared by 9 p.m. Wind was calm.
July 1:
The entire sky was covered with clouds all day, cumulo-stratus at 7a.m. and 2 p.m., cirro-stratus at 9 p.m. A very gentle warm southern breeze, (2 mph).
Thermometer: 7 am - 72; 2 pm - 76; 9 pm - 74
July 2:
At 8 am, sky still covered (cumulo stratus). At 2pm, 3/10 clear. At 9 p.m. cirrus clouds. Wind same as preceeding day
Thermometer: 7 am - 74; 2 pm - 81; 9 pm - 76
July 3:
At 8am, sky again completely covered with cumulo-stratus clouds, at 2pm, sky only 4/10 covered, but with cumulus or the thunderclouds of summer; at 9pm, 7/10 cumulus. Wind SSW, very gentle. Thunderstorm in neighborhood at 6 pm. The thunder seemed tame, after the artillery firing of the afternoon.
Thermometer: 7am - 73; 2pm - 87; 9pm - 76
July 4:
Rain showers at 6 am, from 2:15 until 4 pm, and at 4 am on July 5 totaling 1.39 inches . Thermometer: 7 am - 69; 2 pm - 72; 9 pm - 70
There were slight showers on the 5th and the 7th, and on the 8th a rain from 3 am to 11:30 am measured 1.3 inches.
The maximum temperature for the month of July 1863 was 87 degrees (at the time of Pickett's Charge). On eleven days of the month the maximum temperature was in the seventies, on one day (the 17th) it was only 62 degrees.
This helps us imagine what the weather was like during certain parts of the battle. For instance, during Buford's fight on the first morning, it was completely cloudy, slight breeze, and in the mid-70's. During the 20th Maine fight, it was mostly sunny, slight breeze, and in the low 80's. During Pickett's Charge, it was mostly sunny, no breeze, muggy due to the impending storm, and 87 degrees"
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VR, Rick Schaus
“Facts are for people who can’t create their own truth”
Bucky Katt
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| Red Bailey
Prescott, AZ, USA
Posts: 2149
| | Re: E.P. Alexander letter on Pickett's Charge | | Posted on: 1/28/2013 4:20:29 PM | My info came from Gettysburg Magazine, Issue 10, p. 121. Wish I had Rick's ability to find and download more good stuff.
I recall reading a long time ago an account of Alex's gunners running forward to the ER under the smoke to check on their aim. I've always assumed that was most probable in the stretch of the ER from the Codori buildings on down to the Rodgers place.
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Human action can be modified to some extent, but human nature cannot be changed. ....Lincoln
As usual,
Red
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| Rick Schaus
Capon Springs, WV, USA
Posts: 1563
| | Re: E.P. Alexander letter on Pickett's Charge | | Posted on: 1/28/2013 8:05:56 PM |
Quote:I recall reading a long time ago an account of Alex's gunners running forward to the ER under the smoke to check on their aim. I've always assumed that was most probable in the stretch of the ER from the Codori buildings on down to the Rodgers place.
--Red Bailey
I recall reading somewhere, an account of an artillery officer (don’t even recall which battle, or which side he was on), getting chewed out by a superior for being a coward and laying down on the ground while his guns were in action.
Turned out that he was laying down in an attempt to see, below the smoke, the effect of his fire on the enemy.
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VR, Rick Schaus
“Facts are for people who can’t create their own truth”
Bucky Katt
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| Wayne Wachsmuth
Shippensburg, PA, USA
Posts: 785
| | Re: E.P. Alexander letter on Pickett's Charge | | Posted on: 1/29/2013 9:02:47 AM | Gunner Agustus Hesse of the 9th MA battery admonished by Capt. Bigelow during the fight along Wheatfield Road. Bigelow wrote of it himself.
Wayne
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| Larry Purtell
Little Meadows, PA, USA
Posts: 1814
| | Re: E.P. Alexander letter on Pickett's Charge | | Posted on: 1/29/2013 3:04:25 PM |
Quote:I have seen the theory of the trails "digging in" during extended firing many times but one would think that two years into the war experienced artillerymen would be familiar with the concept and compensate for it. It would seem that to assume they would be unaware of the phenomenon would be selling them short in the smarts department.
Wayne
--Wayne Wachsmuth
By the same example wouldn't they know how to compensate for massive overshooting due to smoke? Was the smoke really that exceptional? Was such a large number of guns ever used together before or after Gettysburg?
Larry
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"My goal is to live forever. So far, so good.
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| Red Bailey
Prescott, AZ, USA
Posts: 2149
| | Re: E.P. Alexander letter on Pickett's Charge | | Posted on: 1/29/2013 4:08:42 PM | If the smoke problem was caused by the 'gentle' winds, I presume that meant that the Confederate batteries were shrouded in their own smoke and it was slow to move away from the positions of the batteries. There was probably the same problem with the Union batteries, but the SSW winds were slowly clearing their smoke off to the NNE thus not causing much of a problem for the Union gunners. The exception would have been the three batteries just NNE of the north end of McGilvery's line of guns.
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Human action can be modified to some extent, but human nature cannot be changed. ....Lincoln
As usual,
Red
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| Jim Cameron
North Bellmore, NY, USA
Posts: 2206
| | Re: E.P. Alexander letter on Pickett's Charge | | Posted on: 1/29/2013 5:57:24 PM |
Quote:By the same example wouldn't they know how to compensate for massive overshooting due to smoke? Was the smoke really that exceptional? Was such a large number of guns ever used together before or after Gettysburg?
Overshots resulted from more than one cause. Part of the problem was that the difference between being on target and overshooting was, at the ranges involved, very small. Just a fraction of a degree one way or the other would do it. With the target area obscured by smoke, and the crude sighting and gunlaying arrangements of the day, correcting reliably on a target not in plain view was difficult, or impossible. Also, may overshots resulted from unreliable fuses. Shell and case shot was designed for air bursts, not direct hits, and if the fuse didn't detonate the charge at the right point, or at all, the projectile would just keep on going. Not because the aim was off, but because they were supposed to be high to begin with.
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Jim Cameron
Every time I go to Gettysburg, I learn two things. Something new, and, how much I still don't know.
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| Wayne Wachsmuth
Shippensburg, PA, USA
Posts: 785
| | Re: E.P. Alexander letter on Pickett's Charge | | Posted on: 1/29/2013 7:48:18 PM | Muzzle velocity of the projectiles was on the order of 1,200 feet per second and would with uniform powder charges (possible problem area) still have been on the order of 900 FPS in the target area on Cemetery Ridge. At that velocity it wouldn't take a whole bunch of error in setting the fuse or its burning time to make the shell or case detonate somewhere where it wasn't effective on the gun line on CR. Don't forget that with direct fire the gunner must observe his own fire to make needed corrections in azimuth, elevation or fuzing. With multiple guns firing and the smoke problem picking out your own round out of the bunch arriving in the target area would have probably been "mission impossible".
Wayne
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