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 (1939-1945) WWII Battles    
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anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
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The Desert Fox-1891-1944
Posted on: 2/20/2017 12:06:45 PM
As Commander-in-Chief of Hitler's Afrika Korps,Field Marshal Erwin Rommel won fame and popularity for his initial victories against the British during the Nazi military campaign in North Africa, launched in 1941.

Hitler promoted him to the rank of field marshal as a reward for his successes, and Nazi propaganda ensured that he soon achieved celebrity status at home.

Defeated by General Bernard Montgomery's Desert Rats at the battle of El Alamein, Rommel nevertheless claimed that his battles against the British were chivalrous affairs and the "nearest thing to war without hate".

How do you see Irwin Rommel-just another Nazi General or perhaps something different ???

EDIT

Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

redcoat
Stockport, UK
top 40
E-4 Corporal


Posts: 194

Re: The Desert Fox-1891-1944
Posted on: 2/20/2017 1:52:24 PM

Quote:


How do you see Irwin Rommel-just another Nazi General or perhaps something different ???

Regards

Jim
--anemone
Just another over rated Nazi general

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
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E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 5216
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Re: The Desert Fox-1891-1944
Posted on: 2/20/2017 2:10:21 PM
Thank you for the reply redcoat-so why over rated-I'd be interested to know how you assessed his performance as a General.Was it because his memorial was desecrated by the inhabitants of his home town lately

Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

BWilson

top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 2736

Re: The Desert Fox-1891-1944
Posted on: 2/20/2017 2:13:46 PM
 Just a quick note, his given name was Erwin.

Cheers

BW
---------------
With occasional, nervous glances at life's rear-view mirror from the other side of time.

Society's righteous paranoia lows profoundly. -- random wisdom of a computer

BWilson

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E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 2736

Re: The Desert Fox-1891-1944
Posted on: 2/20/2017 3:43:53 PM

Quote:
Thank you for the reply redcoat-so why over rated-I'd be interested to know how you assessed his performance as a General.Was it because his memorial was desecrated by the inhabitants of his home town lately

Regards

Jim
--anemone


Jim,

  ? -- that bit about his grave (my assumption of what you mean by "memorial") being desecrated is news to me. Have a source on that ? I'd like to read more.

Cheers

BW
---------------
With occasional, nervous glances at life's rear-view mirror from the other side of time.

Society's righteous paranoia lows profoundly. -- random wisdom of a computer

Phil andrade
London, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Moderator
Posts: 2014

Re: The Desert Fox-1891-1944
Posted on: 2/20/2017 4:01:26 PM
Unique in terms of the spell he cast over his British opponents. He was a legend...a bit like Bobby Lee was to the Yankee soldiers in the American Civil War.

Don't forget his distinguished combat record in WWI ( Argonne and Caporetto ) ; also his dramatic dash in France in 1940.

A leader in the proper sense ; he exhibited amazing energy.

He disdained logistics and antagonised some of the German High Command...he was a bit of the " shit or bust " kind of warrior, and pushed his luck accordingly.

Regards, Phil
---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

James W.
Ballina, Australia
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major


Posts: 674

Re: The Desert Fox-1891-1944
Posted on: 2/20/2017 5:48:58 PM
Rommel was also a personal favourite of Hitler, having commanded the Fuehrer's Wehrmacht bodyguard detachment.
Hitler liked his dynamic, aggressive approach to combats ops, too.

Rommel even got away with disobeying Hitler's 'standfast' order at El Alamein, without being fired, a rare thing.
& Hitler's affection for him even saw him avoid the most unpleasant fate meted out to many post July 1944 coup-attempt conspirators..

Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
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E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 2217

Re: The Desert Fox-1891-1944
Posted on: 2/20/2017 7:53:33 PM
That Desert Fox!

[Read More]

[Read More]
---------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
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Posts: 5216
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Re: The Desert Fox-1891-1944
Posted on: 2/21/2017 3:39:04 AM
Hope this helps Bill-however I was quite surprised at his attitude towards the Jews-which was pure Nazi-not to say that this detracted from his generalship in the field-nonchalant logistical approach was very much his failing.

[Read More]

Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

James W.
Ballina, Australia
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E-9 Sergeant Major


Posts: 674

Re: The Desert Fox-1891-1944
Posted on: 2/21/2017 5:43:55 AM
Hardly "pure Nazi" Jim, AFAIR, he used his personal clout with Hitler - to resist Himmler's wish in having detachments of SS/SD accompany the Afrika Korps,
& for sure - those guys would've shown what was "pure Nazi" modus operandi, tout suite..

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
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Posts: 5216
http:// 82.44.47.99
Re: The Desert Fox-1891-1944
Posted on: 2/21/2017 5:54:58 AM
James -perhaps not as pure as- say Himmler- but if true- is undoubtedly a Nazi trait.


Quote:
However, Mr Proske claims to have found hitherto ignored historical evidence which casts serious doubt on the general's unblemished reputation and the widely accepted clam that he opposed the rabid anti-Semitism of the Nazis. "At the time when Rommel marched into Tripoli, more than a quarter of the city's population were Jews," he said. "There is evidence which shows that Rommel forbad his troops to buy anything from Jewish traders. Later on, he used the Jews as slave labourers. Some of them were even used as so-called 'mine dogs' who were ordered to walk over minefields ahead of his advancing troops."


Extracted from previous Read More to Bill

Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

James W.
Ballina, Australia
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major


Posts: 674

Re: The Desert Fox-1891-1944
Posted on: 2/21/2017 6:12:42 AM
Mine dogs indeed Jim, I recall being told by my uncle Tony, who'd served in North Africa - that he'd witnessed local Muslim families in transit,
- which were typically a donkey mounted man followed several paces back by his wife/wives & children,
unless there were mines about, in which case - it was women & children 1st..


BWilson

top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 2736

Re: The Desert Fox-1891-1944
Posted on: 2/21/2017 6:14:04 AM

Quote:
Hope this helps Bill-however I was quite surprised at his attitude towards the Jews-which was pure Nazi-not to say that this detracted from his generalship in the field-nonchalant logistical approach was very much his failing.

[Read More]

Regards

Jim
--anemone


Jim,

 I have to say re: his view of the Jews that I am not very surprised. He was a product of his age and his society. I have never been comfortable with the British romanticization of Rommel ... or the war in the desert for that matter. I recall my father telling me a story about Rommel shooting down a French officer in 1940 ... I can't recall the details, but the act had more than a whiff of dishonor about it.

 Thank you for the article. Although I am not a Rommel admirer, I have visited his grave. I was unaware of the memorial to him in Heidenheim, but am disappointed that some thought it appropriate to deface the memorial. Remove the memorial by pressure of public action -- okay. But to deface it is an action that is arbitrary, and one designed to force ideological conformance ... that behavior the browns and reds were both all too skilled in. Beyond that, IMO the historians will find it well nigh impossible to alter the community's stance on the memorial. Germany's postwar "understanding" of the war and its participants is a curious thing, and not something the society wishes to constantly examine, and certainly not in too much detail. The dispute mentioned in the article reminds me of the experience of the woman in Passau who started digging up the Nazi-era connections of people in the town -- she was shunned and threatened for digging into the truth because it exposed too much of the postwar mythology with which the residents had wrapped themselves.

Cheers

BW
---------------
With occasional, nervous glances at life's rear-view mirror from the other side of time.

Society's righteous paranoia lows profoundly. -- random wisdom of a computer

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
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E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 5216
http:// 82.44.47.99
Re: The Desert Fox-1891-1944
Posted on: 2/21/2017 6:37:34 AM
Well put Bill-the Crushing Mantle of Guilt


Quote:
SPIEGEL once staff writer and historian Michael Sontheimer reveals his family's Nazi past and explains why even his 21-year-old son still has a burden to bear. As the 70th anniversary of Germany's defeat approaches, he analyzes the ever-present debate about German guilt, memory and responsibility that still divides the country.


Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

BWilson

top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 2736

Re: The Desert Fox-1891-1944
Posted on: 2/21/2017 6:45:09 AM
 Thanks Jim, interesting Spiegel article. Here it is for anyone wishing to read it [Read More]

Cheers

BW
---------------
With occasional, nervous glances at life's rear-view mirror from the other side of time.

Society's righteous paranoia lows profoundly. -- random wisdom of a computer

James W.
Ballina, Australia
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major


Posts: 674

Re: The Desert Fox-1891-1944
Posted on: 2/21/2017 6:48:11 AM
Mention of Nazi red-stripers makes me want to note that 'Rommel' is a fairly popular name for boys in parts of Asia,
& Toyota even market locally, a Jeep/SUV vehicle prominently named Kluger, the phonetic equivalent of Kluge, yet another Nazi general..

Phil andrade
London, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Moderator
Posts: 2014

Re: The Desert Fox-1891-1944
Posted on: 2/21/2017 6:55:39 AM
Maybe this is pushing analogy too far : but I'm tempted to compare Rommel's supposed distaste for Nazi anti semitism with the story that R.E. Lee was viscerally opposed to the enslavement of blacks in America. People like their legends uncorrupted.

One thing I've read about Rommel sticks in my mind : he was said to be determined that officers share the hardships and labours of the men they led. When he ordered wire entanglements to be erected, he would insist on checking the hands of the officers, to see if they bore the scars that such work entailed. If the officer's hands were pristine , he would take a dim view.

In this sense, Rommel embraced the social mobility that the Nazis espoused : the repudiation of the old aristocratic ways of the Imperial German Army, that had been so apparent in WWI.

Model and Rommel were both exemplars of the " upwardly mobile " cohorts of officers.

The Nazis liked that.

Regards, Phil
---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
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E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 5216
http:// 82.44.47.99
Re: The Desert Fox-1891-1944
Posted on: 2/21/2017 7:14:28 AM
You do not miss many tricks Bill-as you will have noted -I have edited it to bring it up to date-probably quite unnecessarily.

Regards


Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
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Posts: 5216
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Re: The Desert Fox-1891-1944
Posted on: 2/21/2017 7:30:57 AM
Rommel was not a Party member; but Hitler tried to change their dysfunctional relationship many times without results, with Rommel calling his attempts "Sunlamp Treatment", although later he said that "Once I have loved the Führer, and I still do".

Remy and Der Spiegel remark that the statement was very much genuine, while Watson notes that he believed he deserved to die for his treasonable plan.

Rommel was an ambitious man who took advantage of his proximity to Hitler and willingly accepted the propaganda campaigns designed for him by Goebbels. On one hand, he wanted personal promotion and the realisation of his ideals.

On the other hand, being elevated by the traditional system that gave preferential treatment to aristocratic officers would be betrayal of his aspiration "to remain a man of the troops".

Source-Wikipedia Edited

Regards

Jim

---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

redcoat
Stockport, UK
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Posts: 194

Re: The Desert Fox-1891-1944
Posted on: 2/21/2017 10:01:26 AM

Quote:
Thank you for the reply redcoat-so why over rated-I'd be interested to know how you assessed his performance as a General.

Regards

Jim
--anemone
Good Corps commander, anything above that he was out of his depth. Became very ordinary after the loss of his Signals Intercept Company 621, which listened into British radio transmissions, and the info gained from an Italian spy working for the US Military Attaché in Cairo.

redcoat
Stockport, UK
top 40
E-4 Corporal


Posts: 194

Re: The Desert Fox-1891-1944
Posted on: 2/21/2017 10:14:22 AM

Quote:

Rommel even got away with disobeying Hitler's 'standfast' order at El Alamein, without being fired, a rare thing.
It was Kesselring who persuaded Rommel that Hitler's order was not so much a fight to the death order as an attempt at morale boasting by someone who didn't realise the full situation. So when Rommel wrote a letter explaining why he had ordered the retreat, Kesselring, the German theatre commander, also wrote a letter to Hitler backing up Rommels actions and saying he fully supported it
Quote:

& Hitler's affection for him even saw him avoid the most unpleasant fate meted out to many post July 1944 coup-attempt conspirators..

--James W.
Rommel just turned a blind eye, he was not part of the conspiracy. Though the conspirators did hope he would be of use afterwards.

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
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E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 5216
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Re: The Desert Fox-1891-1944
Posted on: 2/21/2017 10:17:34 AM
Many thanks redcoat- for a most interesting reply.You are without doubt correct-his generalship never exceeded Corps level both in France and in North Africa-DAK.How on earth was he promoted to Field Marshal-never having commanded an army.???

Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

redcoat
Stockport, UK
top 40
E-4 Corporal


Posts: 194

Re: The Desert Fox-1891-1944
Posted on: 2/21/2017 10:39:48 AM

Quote:
.How on earth was he promoted to Field Marshal-never having commanded an army.???

Regards

Jim
--anemone
He was very media friendly, and he used his friendship with Joseph Goebbels to good effect.

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
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E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 5216
http:// 82.44.47.99
Re: The Desert Fox-1891-1944
Posted on: 2/21/2017 11:05:33 AM
I also read that Hitler was also bedazzled by him; plus as you indicate- good propaganda from Herr Goebbels-would almost certainly lead to a meteoric rise in rank-he was saved from going to the Russian Front.I wonder why.

Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

Phil andrade
London, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Moderator
Posts: 2014

Re: The Desert Fox-1891-1944
Posted on: 2/21/2017 11:59:17 AM
Rommel was forgiven many things : not least of committing the faux pas of not removing his glove when he shook the Fuhrer's hand !

Regards, Phil
---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

redcoat
Stockport, UK
top 40
E-4 Corporal


Posts: 194

Re: The Desert Fox-1891-1944
Posted on: 2/21/2017 2:05:44 PM

Quote:
Rommel was forgiven many things : not least of committing the faux pas of not removing his glove when he shook the Fuhrer's hand !

Regards, Phil
--Phil andrade
I often wonder if Rommel was sent to North Africa by the German OKW in order to get Hitlers 'Golden Boy' out of the way, because if there was one thing that Rommel was even better than Monty at, was upsetting senior officers of his own side. .

richto90
Bremerton, WA, USA
top 20
E-7 Sgt First Class
Posts: 332

Re: The Desert Fox-1891-1944
Posted on: 2/21/2017 11:33:33 PM

Quote:

Quote:
.How on earth was he promoted to Field Marshal-never having commanded an army.???

Regards

Jim
--anemone
He was very media friendly, and he used his friendship with Joseph Goebbels to good effect.

--redcoat


He also wasn't. Rommel was promoted to Generalfeldmarschal on 22 June 1942, but he took command of Panzerarmee Afrika on 30 January 1942.

 (1939-1945) WWII Battles    
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