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 (1939-1945) WWII Battles    
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Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
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Why did Nazi Deputy Fuhrer, Rudolf Hess fly to Scotland Mid-WWII ???
Posted on: 3/15/2017 11:19:30 AM
In one of the most surprising and mysterious events of WWII top Nazi leader, & Hitler supporter Rudolf Hess gets in a German Warplane,

& flies to Scotland in the middle of the war & surrenders himself! Why??

[Read More]

[Read More]

Go figure? Anyone??
MD

This is crazy! a lot to discuss here, opinion, facts, & websites welcome!
---------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
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Posts: 6095
http:// 82.44.47.99
Re: Why did Nazi Deputy Fuhrer, Rudolf Hess fly to Scotland Mid-WWII ???
Posted on: 3/15/2017 11:30:41 AM

Rudolf Walter Richard Hess (Heß in German) (26 April 1894 – 17 August 1987), was a prominent politician in Nazi Germany. Appointed Deputy Führer to Adolf Hitler in 1933, he served in this position until 1941, when he flew solo to Scotland-"ostensibly" to attempt to negotiate a peace with the United Kingdom during World War II.

Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
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E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 2955

Re: Why did Nazi Deputy Fuhrer, Rudolf Hess fly to Scotland Mid-WWII ???
Posted on: 3/15/2017 11:59:02 AM
Jim,

And your OK with that???? The man was out of his friggen mind!?

[Read More]
---------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
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Posts: 6095
http:// 82.44.47.99
Re: Why did Nazi Deputy Fuhrer, Rudolf Hess fly to Scotland Mid-WWII ???
Posted on: 3/15/2017 12:36:26 PM
Dave- I did not say that I was OK with that.I only stated what I thought to be true-I have no idea what his state of mind was; and I have to say that i neither know nor care at this stage-he is dead now and for me -so too is his story-I am not trying to be rude- just levelling with you.

Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
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E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 2955

Re: Why did Nazi Deputy Fuhrer, Rudolf Hess fly to Scotland Mid-WWII ???
Posted on: 3/15/2017 2:21:37 PM
Hi Jim,


I also was just kidding you, I do find it fascinating, that the #2 Nazi leader would get in a plane & fly over to the enemy! It's kind of like Franklin D Roosevelt's Vice President, Harry S Truman, flying to Tokyo, or Berlin while the war was still on!

It just doesn't make any sense?? What was he thinking?

Regards,
Dave

Anyone else want to chime in? What say you?
---------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

BWilson

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Re: Why did Nazi Deputy Fuhrer, Rudolf Hess fly to Scotland Mid-WWII ???
Posted on: 3/15/2017 2:37:05 PM
Hi MD,

 Pure assumption on my part. Hess either had intel indicating that at least some important Brits were willing to cut a deal (which could have been misinformation pushed by Britain's intel services to confuse the Germans); or, he was bitten by the fantasy-spinning bug that apparently bit almost all of the top Nazis.

 If I understand the situation correctly, there is still (a lot of ?) information regarding top-level decisions in wartime Britain that are still classified and protected by the Official Secrets Act. Who knows; facts bearing on this question may be still be hidden in musty files that remain accessible only to those with appropriate security clearance and the need to know.

Cheers

BW
---------------
With occasional, fatigued glances at life's rear-view mirror from the other side of time.

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
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Re: Why did Nazi Deputy Fuhrer, Rudolf Hess fly to Scotland Mid-WWII ???
Posted on: 3/15/2017 3:13:25 PM
What reasons did the Soviets have for insisting that Hess die at Spandau? I think that there were initiatives from the British to have him released before he died. (early 60's ???).

I wonder whether the Soviets thought that Hess was conspiring with the Brits to turn the allies on the Soviets.

Or perhaps they were just being vindictive. They had reason.


Cheers,

George

James W.
Ballina, Australia
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E-8 Master Sergeant


Posts: 674

Re: Why did Nazi Deputy Fuhrer, Rudolf Hess fly to Scotland Mid-WWII ???
Posted on: 3/16/2017 12:29:17 AM

Quote:
What reasons did the Soviets have for insisting that Hess die at Spandau? I think that there were initiatives from the British to have him released before he died. (early 60's ???).

I wonder whether the Soviets thought that Hess was conspiring with the Brits to turn the allies on the Soviets.

Or perhaps they were just being vindictive. They had reason.


Cheers,

George
--George



& by any chance George, would that "...reason." be - the Soviets had unequivocal/certain knowledge about the Hess/Nazi peace approach, as obtained via British Intelligence,
- which had long since been thoroughly infiltrated/compromised by Soviet espionage efforts/success - esp' with its notorious British traitors?


Edit: Typo.

Phil andrade
London, UK
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Re: Why did Nazi Deputy Fuhrer, Rudolf Hess fly to Scotland Mid-WWII ???
Posted on: 3/16/2017 2:56:49 AM
It seems very plausible to me that Hess acted with Hiter's full knowledge and approval.

Britain was a damned nuisance as far as Hitler was concerned : he wanted a settlement that would give him free reign to get on with what he really wanted to do : destroy the Soviet Union.

No coincidence that Hess's arrival coincided with the worst German air raids : fourteen hundred killed in London on a single day....that day being at the same time as Rudolph's landing.

Carrot and stick stuff, I think.

I had heard that the Soviets wanted Hess kept in Spandau so that they had a plausible reason to maintain a presence there by dint of mounting guard.

Regards, Phil
---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

Lightning
Glasgow, UK
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Posts: 459

Re: Why did Nazi Deputy Fuhrer, Rudolf Hess fly to Scotland Mid-WWII ???
Posted on: 3/16/2017 5:44:09 AM
I think it's more than plausible, Phil; I think it's probable.

Hitler, like you say, was keen to wrap up the Western Front, having achieved virtually all of his objectives. Britain was in no position to seriously intervene on the continent and the Battle of the Atlantic was proving extremely costly for both sides. Hitler wanted all resources available devoted to the destruction of the Soviet Union.

Certain elements of the British Establishment had (before the discovery of the Nazi death camps, anyway) held the view that Nazi Germany was the lesser of two evils and that the USSR was the real threat to their established order. No doubt some felt that the British should hold their nose and do a deal with Hitler, if it meant the preservation of the Empire and Commonwealth.

I think it likely that this view made its way to Germany, probably with complicit assistance from MI5 and MI6 (although they may have been wishing to flush out traitors rather than undermine Churchill). Hess was duly despatched by the Nazi regime, as a high level token of their sincerity in their desire for peace. Hess was perhaps given orders that if the peace deal should fail, then he would be cast out and denounced as a madman and disowned by the Nazi regime to save face.

My view is that Hitler knew there covert peace feelers out there; MI6 knew it, Churchill knew it; the Establishment knew it. Quite why the files have been kept under lock and key for so long I can only speculate, but there must have been some pretty prominent and important people involved for these files to remain out of the public domain, so presumably these are kept away to avoid embarrassment and/or scandal.

Ultimately, Hess paid the price; kept in prison long after the rest of his former comrades were released and reduced to an undignified self-inflicted exit via a cable cord in a garden shed. Perhaps he deserved it; he was, afterall, the highest-ranking surviving embodiment of a regime that brought civilisation to its knees.

Cheers,

Colin
---------------
"There is no course open to us but to fight it out. Every position must be held to the last man: there must be no retirement. With our backs to the wall and believing in the justice of our cause, each one of us must fight to the end."

James W.
Ballina, Australia
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Posts: 674

Re: Why did Nazi Deputy Fuhrer, Rudolf Hess fly to Scotland Mid-WWII ???
Posted on: 3/16/2017 5:53:42 AM

Quote:
I think it's more than plausible, Phil; I think it's probable...

...Perhaps if he deserved it; he was, afterall, the highest-ranking surviving embodiment of a regime that brought civilisation to its knees.

Cheers,

Colin
--Lightning


Colin , perhaps after being a 'stooge' for so many decades, he got to finally make his own exit call.. (or maybe he WAS 'liquidated')..

Anyhow, the evidence of C20th history shows that your regime epithet more properly applies to the many decades of damage done..
- by the unrelentingly monstrous Soviet system.. & its long hangover - through to today..

Lightning
Glasgow, UK
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E-7 Sgt First Class


Posts: 459

Re: Why did Nazi Deputy Fuhrer, Rudolf Hess fly to Scotland Mid-WWII ???
Posted on: 3/16/2017 5:59:01 AM

Quote:
Colin , perhaps after being a 'stooge' for so many decades, he got to finally make his own exit call.. (or maybe he WAS 'liquidated')..

Anyhow, the evidence of C20th history shows that your regime epithet more properly applies to the many decades of damage done..
- by the unrelentingly monstrous Soviet system.. & its long hangover - through to today..

--James W.


James,

I don't have the stomach for another "World's Worst Regime" debate, nor is this the place to do it.

Cheers,

Colin
---------------
"There is no course open to us but to fight it out. Every position must be held to the last man: there must be no retirement. With our backs to the wall and believing in the justice of our cause, each one of us must fight to the end."

James W.
Ballina, Australia
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E-8 Master Sergeant


Posts: 674

Re: Why did Nazi Deputy Fuhrer, Rudolf Hess fly to Scotland Mid-WWII ???
Posted on: 3/16/2017 6:09:39 AM
Colin, I cannot agree, this thread is the crux of that missed opportunity... & which you, ah, have in fact - brought up..

Another thread might be the place to discuss the motivation for Churchill's intransigence over the validity of this event, & at such great cost..

( Starter for ten/30, Bi-polar Affective Disorder allowing unrestrained ego/C19th-based delusion about British power-prestige-authority/$ debt to FDR/Weizmann?)..

Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
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E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 2955

Re: Why did Nazi Deputy Fuhrer, Rudolf Hess fly to Scotland Mid-WWII ???
Posted on: 3/16/2017 6:31:12 AM
JW,

You can say that again!?
---------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

Lightning
Glasgow, UK
top 20
E-7 Sgt First Class


Posts: 459

Re: Why did Nazi Deputy Fuhrer, Rudolf Hess fly to Scotland Mid-WWII ???
Posted on: 3/16/2017 7:12:17 AM

Quote:
Colin, I cannot agree, this thread is the crux of that missed opportunity... & which you, ah, have in fact - brought up..

Another thread might be the place to discuss the motivation for Churchill's intransigence over the validity of this event, & at such great cost..

( Starter for ten/30, Bi-polar Affective Disorder allowing unrestrained ego/C19th-based delusion about British power-prestige-authority/$ debt to FDR/Weizmann?)..
--James W.


James,

I said the Nazi regime brought civilisation as we know it to its knees (which it surely did, across Europe anyway), to which you replied to the effect that the Soviets were worse. At no point did I infer or seek to infer a comparison or start a debate on this point.

I know that your strongly-held view is that war with Germany in the 1930s/40s should have been avoided at all costs, and that the Soviets were the bigger threat, but is this really the place to discuss this (again)?

Please elaborate on your comments regarding Churchill.

Cheers,

Colin

---------------
"There is no course open to us but to fight it out. Every position must be held to the last man: there must be no retirement. With our backs to the wall and believing in the justice of our cause, each one of us must fight to the end."

James W.
Ballina, Australia
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E-8 Master Sergeant


Posts: 674

Re: Why did Nazi Deputy Fuhrer, Rudolf Hess fly to Scotland Mid-WWII ???
Posted on: 3/16/2017 7:32:42 AM
Colin I'll take it at face value that you are being straightforward here..

Prior to exigencies of a total war that was a matter of existential being for the Nazi regime, they did, in a brief decade - have a much better record than Soviet Russia..

Meaningful employment, Olympic Games, G.P. racing success in cars & bikes, modern animal protection laws, anti-smoking reg's due to cancer research & etc..

As for WSC, he'd be gone, if the Hess proposal was taken up, & that was a existential crisis for him & his ambitions.. so he could not allow it. at any cost,
- no matter how destructive/delusional/duped/bought he was..( Jeeze, those descriptors are usually applied to Hitler, see how that works?)
( In fact, WSC was such an inveterate warmonger that he'd actually had ambitions - 'iron curtain', & plans drawn up - to continue warring against Stalin)..

brian grafton
Victoria, BC, Canada
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Re: Why did Nazi Deputy Fuhrer, Rudolf Hess fly to Scotland Mid-WWII ???
Posted on: 3/16/2017 10:15:04 PM
Dave, I posted the following to you yesterday but it disappeared. Some of it is repetitive of points made in the 20 posts since, but I think it may be worth posting nonetheless.

I don't know how much you have read about the year or so between Dunkirk and Barbarossa, but Bill certainly touches on some critical points. I'm not well-read in the period by any means, but I think Bill's assumption ("Hess either had intel indicating that at least some important Brits were willing to cut a deal (which cuold have been misinformation pushed by Britain's intel services to confuse the Germans); or, he was bitten by the fantasy-spinning bug that apparently bit almost all of the top Nazis.") might be close to the truth.

Consider:

A. British issues from May 1940 to July 1941:
• A1: Churchill came to power only in May, 1940. He was, to some extent, the people's (uninformed) choice, but he was not the first choice of most politicians, who rather expected Lord Halifax to become PM. Halifax was a sound man, but was considered to be too much connected with the "appeasement" group discredited because of Chamberlain's actions and pronouncements.
• A2: Because of Dunkirk and other British withdrawals from Europe, By June 1, 1940, British and other operative Allied troops (Commonwealth, Polish, Norwegian and increasing Free French) were largely stripped naked of any major equipment. This is a debated issue, but my reading indicates that artillery and mechanized equipment were very scant on the ground long after Seelöwe (the anticipated invasion of Britain) had been cancelled.
• A3: British and related troops were fighting a widening war in both North and East Africa. These troops had to be supplied at the same time that British home forces needed to be replenished. I think it important to note that Britain did come first during this time. Weapons, artillery, tanks and aircraft sent to the three non-home fronts (the Med; North Africa; East Africa) were armed with obsolete weapons at the beginning, and received better replacements only as Home front needs were addressed.Everybody talks about the esprit of the RAF folks flying Gloster "Gladiators" against the Italians and the Luftwaffe; folk are astounded at the success of Fairey "Swordfish" against the Italian fleet at Taranto. Keep in mind those were the weapons provided, not the weapons of choice.
• A4: Great Britain was increasingly being choked of supplies after the fall of the west coast of Europe to German forces. RN plans to blockade Germany became rather meaningless, and German use of European ports from Northern Norway to Spain made mockery of much RN planning.
• A5: The decision of the British War Cabinet (which IMHO meant in this instance the political decision of WSC) to withdraw troops from North Africa in defence of Greece undermined the gains made in North Africa, and allowed Rommel to introduce German arms into a conflict the British were close to winning. At the same time, British troops sent to Greece were overwhelmed, and suffered first the withdrawal to Crete and then the further withdrawal to Alexandria. Both the British Army and the Royal Navy suffered huge losses due to this campaign.

A lot of other points could be added to that list, but I think each one might bear on Hess's flight.

B. Other issues which might apply:
• B1: There is some indication that Hess was making plans for his flight to England as early as October, 1940. That would have been shortly after the cancellation of Seelöwe.
• B2: The US Act we call "Lend-Lease" was enacted in mid-March 1941. At that time, the agreement did not include the USSR. When Barbarossa was activated, it was Britain rather than the US who first offered to share Lend-Lease equipment. This is interesting, given the dates of Hess's flight and the execution ofBarbarossa.
• B3: Although Barbarossa was executed June 22, 1941, the initial date is said to have been May 15, 1941. German distraction with Yugoslavia and Greece may have set the timetable for Barbarossa.

C. Personal assessments as of May 10, 1941:
• C1: British troops had been defeated whenever they faced German troops.
• C2: RN's primary responsibility (blockade of Germany) was no longer meaningful. At the same time, RN capability was under challenge. It had neither the ships, the plans or the training for increased convoy duty because it hadn't imagined the level of German strength in the Atlantic. The majority of its convoy ships were Corvettes, which were too slow, too badly armed and too ill-designed for the roles they played.
• C3: RAF was more a nuisance than a threat. Daylight assaults and nuisance raids aside, RAF Bomber Command – by this point the de facto power of the RAF – was losing more trained air crew than they were killing German civilians. That would not change until some 10 months after Hess' flight.

Where does this leave us concerning Hess and his flight? Of course, nobody knows. But I don't think the flight was stupid, or insane, or mindless, and I don't think his potential host was chosen by accident. The Duke of Hamilton was (or had been) an MP, a pilot, a member of the Air Ministry (I believe), and a man who had been feted by the Nazi elite of Germany during the 1936 Olympics and – I believe – at other times. Was he a supporter of Appeasement? Dunno. Of Lord Halifax? Dunno. But this was clearly no random choice of link by Hess.

I think this may have been an attempt by Hess – with or without his Fuhrer's permission – to provide the planned war against the Soviet Union a better chance of success. What he might have expected to achieve is impossible to know, but I would expect that at the least he would expect collusion between German and Britain against the Soviet state. He wouldn't have seen his mission as a discussion between equals: Germany was supreme in every field in the weeks leading up to Barbarossa, and Hess knew it. It wouldn't have been a suggestion of a mutual assault against the Soviet Union, IMHO: Britain had little capability to join in an assault against Russia. At this point in the war, I can't even see the deal he wanted to offer as being as good as Hitler's "generous offer" after the Fall of France. But whatever it was, Hess took enormous risks to get to Scotland alive.

I don't know what his existence, his argument, his hopes might have been. But given the lack of British strength at the time, it took a strong, crazy or confused soul to refuse to hear Hess, or consider his rattling on only worth being ignored anord put under D notice. And WSC certainly had that kind of strength, for good or ill.

Cheers
Brian G
---------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly.

"The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.

Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 2955

Re: Why did Nazi Deputy Fuhrer, Rudolf Hess fly to Scotland Mid-WWII ???
Posted on: 3/17/2017 10:56:50 AM
Thanks Brian,

You certainly bring up a lot of issues, and possible reasons for the motivation of Hess flying to Scotland!

But can anyone narrow it down just a little?
MD
---------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

brian grafton
Victoria, BC, Canada
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Posts: 1446

Re: Why did Nazi Deputy Fuhrer, Rudolf Hess fly to Scotland Mid-WWII ???
Posted on: 3/17/2017 8:45:55 PM
My point in raising so many issues, and in numbering them so elaborately, is that even using only those relatively few issues, it is possible to generate (probably) hundreds of of possible reasons for Hess' decision to fly.

I personally think he acted rationally though perhaps on incorrect information. I have no particular reason to assume Hitler knew of his intentions, and IMHO that seems unlikely. I believe that his goal was probably to keep Britain from offering any aid of any sort to the Soviets, in the belief (which is moot) that without British assistance Russia would fall to German forces. I believe (on scant evidence, and with little real knowledge of his potential host) that he chose the Duke of Hamilton based on assessments of British war commitments which were out-moded and incorrect.

But right now nobody can be certain about anything. The crash was in an isolated area, the capture was rather rapid, and the application of a "D-notice" quickly blanketed the issue. I believe that that initial D-notice remains the basis for the lack of information concerning Hess' flight.

A "D-notice", at least during WW2, was a "Defence Notice", and was a binding agreement between government and news outlets which could make any event unreportable. I believe, but I'm not certain, that it fell originally under DORA (the Defence of the Realm Act), and was rigidly enforced. Over the years the meaning and power of the "D-notice" has changed, but a "D-notice" during WW2 was the holiest of holies.

During my graduate studies, one of my professors (a female, just to note) had been involved in the capture and initial interrogation of Hess. She received, IIRC, an OBE for her work. There are many levels of this award (KBE, DBE, CBE, OBE and MBE), but all are granted for auspicious service to the Realm. The BE stands for British Empire; the different levels are Knight, Dame, Commander, Officer and Member. She never spoke of her involvement with Hess, but simply offered a blank expression as if she had no idea who Hess was.

Cheers
Brian G
---------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly.

"The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.

James W.
Ballina, Australia
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Posts: 674

Re: Why did Nazi Deputy Fuhrer, Rudolf Hess fly to Scotland Mid-WWII ???
Posted on: 3/18/2017 2:02:20 AM
Churchill had a major ego-problem with Hitler, going back to the mid-1930's when it was common for notable Brits visiting Germany to meet him..

A meeting was mooted, with WSC's acquiescence, but AH subsequently declined, apparently due to WSC's status then being - that of a has-been/political failure..

The proverbial 'woman scorned' - truly had nothing on ol' Winnie..

redcoat
Stockport, UK
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Posts: 220

Re: Why did Nazi Deputy Fuhrer, Rudolf Hess fly to Scotland Mid-WWII ???
Posted on: 3/18/2017 9:11:31 AM

Quote:
What reasons did the Soviets have for insisting that Hess die at Spandau? I think that there were initiatives from the British to have him released before he died. (early 60's ???).

I wonder whether the Soviets thought that Hess was conspiring with the Brits to turn the allies on the Soviets.

Or perhaps they were just being vindictive. They had reason.


Cheers,

George
--George
He was the Nazi's number two, and his so-called peace mission was an effort to get the British out of the way before the Nazi invasion of the Soviet Union...isn't that enough ????

redcoat
Stockport, UK
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Posts: 220

Re: Why did Nazi Deputy Fuhrer, Rudolf Hess fly to Scotland Mid-WWII ???
Posted on: 3/18/2017 2:06:27 PM

Quote:
Colin, I cannot agree, this thread is the crux of that missed opportunity... & which you, ah, have in fact - brought up..

Another thread might be the place to discuss the motivation for Churchill's intransigence over the validity of this event, & at such great cost..
The peace plan as such wasn't worth Hess flying to Scotland the British government even without Churchill in charge would not have accepted it.

This is the peace plan that Hess gave to his interrogators after his capture (taken from the British government file FO 371/34484)

(i) That Germany should be given a free hand in Europe.

(ii) That England should have a free hand in the British Empire, except that the ex-
German colonies should be returned to Germany.

(iii) That Russia should be included in Asia, but that Germany had certain demands to
make of Russia which would have to be satisfied either by negotiation or as the result
of war. There was, however, no truth in the rumours that the Führer contemplated an
early attack on Russia.

(iv) That the British should evacuate Iraq.

(v) The peace agreement would have to contain a provision for the reciprocal
indemnification of British and German Nationals, whose property had been
expropriated as the result of war.

(vi) The proposal could only be considered on the understanding that it was
negotiated by Germany with an English Government other than the present British
Government. Mr. Churchill, who had planned the war since 1936, and his colleagues,
who had lent themselves to his war policy, were not persons with whom the Führer
would negotiate.

Hess concluded by emphasising that the Führer really wanted a permanent understanding with
Great Britain on a basis which preserved the British Empire intact. His own flight was
intended to give Great Britain a chance of opening conversations without loss of prestige. If
this chance were to be rejected it would be the Führer’s duty to destroy Great Britain utterly
and to keep the country after the war in a state of permanent subjection.


Quote:
( Starter for ten/30, Bi-polar Affective Disorder allowing unrestrained ego/C19th-based delusion about British power-prestige-authority/$ debt to FDR/Weizmann?)..
--James W.
More standard Neo-Nazi slurs... getting tiresome.

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5690

Re: Why did Nazi Deputy Fuhrer, Rudolf Hess fly to Scotland Mid-WWII ???
Posted on: 3/18/2017 4:19:32 PM

Quote:

Quote:
What reasons did the Soviets have for insisting that Hess die at Spandau? I think that there were initiatives from the British to have him released before he died. (early 60's ???).

I wonder whether the Soviets thought that Hess was conspiring with the Brits to turn the allies on the Soviets.

Or perhaps they were just being vindictive. They had reason.


Cheers,

George
--George
He was the Nazi's number two, and his so-called peace mission was an effort to get the British out of the way before the Nazi invasion of the Soviet Union...isn't that enough ????

--redcoat


Hello Redcoat,

I am confused as to why Hess, the lone prisoner at Spandau became the reason to maintain the prison and I did acknowledge that I felt that the Soviets had reason to be vindictive. The man was an ardent Nazi.

But he may have been insane. When the British interrogated him, did they not determine that he wasn't all there?

As well, the story is that he took it upon himself to head to GB with a peace treaty filled with conditions that were impossible for the British to consider, as you have shown. Hitler disowned him.

Is there an chance at all that he was acting at the behest of his benefactor for whom Hess had declared undying devotion, with the knowledge that he, Hess, would be excoriated if he failed? I am just speculating here that the Germans were taking a flyer hoping that GB would seek any opportunity to avoid further conflict.

Or he was simply quite unwell.

The man died at 92. It was declared a suicide but some say that he was too frail to have carried out the act. Perhaps the Soviets just got tired of watching him.

Cheers,

George

scoucer
Berlin, Germany
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 1957

Re: Why did Nazi Deputy Fuhrer, Rudolf Hess fly to Scotland Mid-WWII ???
Posted on: 3/18/2017 5:32:47 PM
George,

He wasn´t just guarded by the Soviets. Spandau was in the British sector.The four occupying powers of Berlin alternated control of the prison on a monthly basis, each having the responsibility for a total of three months out of the year. Observing the Four-Power flags that flew at the Allied Control Authority building could determine who controlled the prison.

Trevor
---------------
`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie

Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5690

Re: Why did Nazi Deputy Fuhrer, Rudolf Hess fly to Scotland Mid-WWII ???
Posted on: 3/18/2017 5:46:02 PM
Thanks Trevor. I knew that he was kept there as part of an agreement but did not know that the country's shared guard rotation.

What do you make of the stories that he was actually killed by British agents posing as doctors? Just tabloid fodder?

Cheers,

George

scoucer
Berlin, Germany
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 1957

Re: Why did Nazi Deputy Fuhrer, Rudolf Hess fly to Scotland Mid-WWII ???
Posted on: 3/18/2017 5:55:13 PM

Quote:
Thanks Trevor. I knew that he was kept there as part of an agreement but did not know that the country's shared guard rotation.

What do you make of the stories that he was actually killed by British agents posing as doctors? Just tabloid fodder?

Cheers,

George
--George


Tabloid fodder. Of course, much of the present Right in the UK try to convince many that it was a mistake not to have agreed to a peace with Hitler and so you get all kinds of conspiracy nonsense and obfusication.

Trevor
---------------
`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie

Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.

redcoat
Stockport, UK
top 30
E-5 Sergeant


Posts: 220

Re: Why did Nazi Deputy Fuhrer, Rudolf Hess fly to Scotland Mid-WWII ???
Posted on: 3/18/2017 6:30:21 PM

Quote:
Thanks Trevor. I knew that he was kept there as part of an agreement but did not know that the country's shared guard rotation.

What do you make of the stories that he was actually killed by British agents posing as doctors? Just tabloid fodder?

Cheers,

George
--George
He was being guarded by the US at the time, and there is the question of why would the British want to kill him after all this time ????
They had 4 years where he was in their sole custody, if they had wanted him out of the way then would have been the perfect time, but instead they allow him to go on public trial, and then they share custody of him for 42 years with the US and the SOVIET UNION !!!!

James W.
Ballina, Australia
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant


Posts: 674

Re: Why did Nazi Deputy Fuhrer, Rudolf Hess fly to Scotland Mid-WWII ???
Posted on: 3/18/2017 6:51:18 PM

Quote:



Quote:
( Starter for ten/30, Bi-polar Affective Disorder allowing unrestrained ego/C19th-based delusion about British power-prestige-authority/$ debt to FDR/Weizmann?)..
--James W.
More standard Neo-Nazi slurs... getting tiresome.

--redcoat


"...Neo-Nazi slurs", "...getting tiresome"? Yeah right R-C, seems emotive gainsaying & snide remarks to smokescreen the evidence, is trumps, these days too..

& the actual Nazi slur, from Hitler, that Churchill was "A 1/2 American, Jew-raddled, drunkard" was cruel & crude, but cut to the chase, as well as to the quick...

( Churchill's mother's family name was Jerome, Jewish heritage is traditionally deemed to be via the female line, & WSC himself, was a self-described "Zionist").

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5690

Re: Why did Nazi Deputy Fuhrer, Rudolf Hess fly to Scotland Mid-WWII ???
Posted on: 3/18/2017 7:19:25 PM
James W. , I am having trouble following. Are you suggesting that Churchill was part of some Zionist plot?

Your posts are rather clipped and terse and for me, difficult to decipher. Perhaps you could flesh out that last comment.


Cheers,

George

James W.
Ballina, Australia
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant


Posts: 674

Re: Why did Nazi Deputy Fuhrer, Rudolf Hess fly to Scotland Mid-WWII ???
Posted on: 3/18/2017 9:01:06 PM
Dunno about "plot" George, but WSC certainly had longitudinal connections with Zionists, which included assistance with Palestine, & receiving personal funds,
- as well as US 'Jewish lobby' support for joining the war alongside Britain, in both world wars...

Ironically, the fundamental Zionist aims, & those of the Nazis were indeed parallel, a fact which was duly noted by both parties..

James W.
Ballina, Australia
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant


Posts: 674

Re: Why did Nazi Deputy Fuhrer, Rudolf Hess fly to Scotland Mid-WWII ???
Posted on: 3/18/2017 9:31:54 PM

Quote:

Of course, much of the present Right in the UK try to convince many that it was a mistake not to have agreed to a peace with Hitler and so you get all kinds of conspiracy nonsense and obfusication.

Trevor

--scoucer


From a rational, practical, & realistic British interest viewpoint, it surely was a mistake, & for western Europe too..

Ideology is quite another matter though, & is much more subjective/emotive/irrational/destructive...
..such as the 'leftwingers' who also supported peacemaking, from the time of the R-M pact in `39, at Stalin's behest, well, 'til Barbarossa, anyhow..
( & let alone those closet-Communists so active - in British Intelligence)..




redcoat
Stockport, UK
top 30
E-5 Sergeant


Posts: 220

Re: Why did Nazi Deputy Fuhrer, Rudolf Hess fly to Scotland Mid-WWII ???
Posted on: 3/18/2017 9:41:30 PM

Quote:


( Churchill's mother's family name was Jerome, Jewish heritage is traditionally deemed to be via the female line, & WSC himself, was a self-described "Zionist").

--James W.

More Neo-Nazi lies.
Jerome is not a Jewish surname, it's descended from the Greek Hieronymos and was used in France Italy and Britain from the Middle Ages as a Christian surname

James W.
Ballina, Australia
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant


Posts: 674

Re: Why did Nazi Deputy Fuhrer, Rudolf Hess fly to Scotland Mid-WWII ???
Posted on: 3/18/2017 9:45:44 PM

Quote:

Quote:


( Churchill's mother's family name was Jerome, Jewish heritage is traditionally deemed to be via the female line, & WSC himself, was a self-described "Zionist").

--James W.

More Neo-Nazi lies.
Jerome is not a Jewish surname, it's descended from the Greek Hieronymos and was used in France Italy and Britain from the Middle Ages as a Christian surname
--redcoat


What "Neo-Nazi lies", R-C? There are none in my post.. & you excitedly fell for that one, didn't you.. kinda proves the point about 'ideology', huh..

redcoat
Stockport, UK
top 30
E-5 Sergeant


Posts: 220

Re: Why did Nazi Deputy Fuhrer, Rudolf Hess fly to Scotland Mid-WWII ???
Posted on: 3/18/2017 9:46:23 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Of course, much of the present Right in the UK try to convince many that it was a mistake not to have agreed to a peace with Hitler and so you get all kinds of conspiracy nonsense and obfusication.

Trevor


--scoucer



Quote:
From a rational, practical, & realistic British interest viewpoint, it surely was a mistake, & for western Europe too..

Britain has made many mistakes in her history but opposing Nazism wasn't one of them.

James W.
Ballina, Australia
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant


Posts: 674

Re: Why did Nazi Deputy Fuhrer, Rudolf Hess fly to Scotland Mid-WWII ???
Posted on: 3/18/2017 9:49:56 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Of course, much of the present Right in the UK try to convince many that it was a mistake not to have agreed to a peace with Hitler and so you get all kinds of conspiracy nonsense and obfusication.

Trevor


--scoucer


From a rational, practical, & realistic British interest viewpoint, it surely was a mistake, & for western Europe too..

Britain has made many mistakes in her history but opposing Nazism wasn't one of them.
--redcoat

Again with the 'ideology' R-C, whereas the objective/quantitative data - in point of fact, clearly demonstrates the opposite conclusion..

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