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 (1861-1865) Civil War Battles (Western Theater)    
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anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
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Re: The Vicksburg Campaign 1863--A Turning Point for the Union ?
Posted on: 7/14/2017 3:39:41 AM

Quote:
The Battle of Mobile Bay was the capstone in the military career of David Farragut, who joined the U.S. Navy at age 9.

Opposing Admiral David Farragut’s force of 18 warships was a Confederate squadron of only four ships;however, it included the CSS Tennessee, said to be the most powerful ironclad afloat. Farragut also had to contend with two powerful Confederate batteries inside of forts Morgan and Gaines.

BATTLE OF MOBILE BAY: AUGUST 5, 1864
On the morning of August 5, Farragut’s force steamed into the mouth of Mobile Bay in two columns led by four ironclads and met with devastating fire that immediately sank one of its iron-hulled, single-turret monitors, the USS Tecumseh. The rest of the fleet fell into confusion but Farragut allegedly rallied them with the words: “Damn the torpedoes. Full speed ahead!” Although the authenticity of the quote has been questioned, it nevertheless became one of the most famous in U.S. military history.

The Yankee fleet quickly knocked out the smaller Confederate ships, but the Tennessee fought a valiant battle against overwhelming odds before it sustained heavy damage and surrendered. The Union laid siege to forts Morgan and Gaines, and both were captured within several weeks. Confederate forces remained in control of the city of Mobile, but the port was no longer available to blockade runners.

The Battle of Mobile Bay lifted the morale of the North. With Grant stalled at Petersburg, Virginia, and General William T. Sherman (1820-91) unable to capture Atlanta, Georgia, the capture of the bay became the first in a series of Union victories that stretched to the fall presidential election, in which the incumbent, Abraham Lincoln, defeated Democratic challenger George McClellan (1826-85), a former Union general.
American History.com

Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
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E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 2959

Re: The Vicksburg Campaign 1863--A Turning Point for the Union ?
Posted on: 7/14/2017 9:00:10 AM
Jim,

What would have happened had George McClellan won the 1864 Presidential Election????

Mint jullips Ya'll!
MD
---------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

John R. Price
Wilkes-Barre, PA, USA
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Posts: 553

Re: The Vicksburg Campaign 1863--A Turning Point for the Union ?
Posted on: 7/14/2017 9:16:19 AM
Phil,

I don't know that the effects were "more apparent in the West." The parade of changes in command in the AOP, the Davis-Johnston feud starts in the East and a former AOP commander runs against Lincoln in 64. Also in the US the military takes its marching orders from the civilian and in many ways Johnston was ignoring those orders over Vicksburg. The orders were dend it at all costs and his idea was abandon it and retake it later. Personally I don't think Johnston's idea at all doable.
---------------
A battle long forgotten by our country in a war never understood by our country.
"to satisfy our endless needs and justify our bloody deeds, in the name of destiny and in the name of God"


anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
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Posts: 6098
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Re: The Vicksburg Campaign 1863--A Turning Point for the Union ?
Posted on: 7/14/2017 9:40:13 AM
"The orders were to defend Vicksburg it at all costs and his Johnson idea was abandon it and retake it later. Personally I don't think Johnston's idea at all doable."

John-this was absolutely out of the question by 1864 IMHO-he had quite enough on his plate avoiding annihilation by Sherman.

Joseph Johnston briefly attempted to hold Jackson, but the Federals reoccupied it. Destruction there was so complete that it became known as "Chimneyville—virtually all that was left.

Johnston would lead the Army of Tennessee during most of the Atlanta Campaign and again following the Southern debacle at Franklin and Nashville in the winter of 1864. He would surrender his army to Sherman near Bentonville, North Carolina, days after Robert E. Lee surrendered the Army of Northern Virginia.

Grant’s reputation as a fighter who won tough battles was cemented at Vicksburg, and by the following summer he would be in command of all Union armies in the field.

He came to regret his decision to parole the Vicksburg garrison, however. Most of its men re-enlisted without being exchanged for Union prisoners, as was the custom, putting thousands more rifles back into the Southern ranks.

As a result, Grant would virtually halt prisoner exchanges when he was promoted to command all armies, a decision that perhaps shortened the war; but also condemned thousands of prisoners north and south to prolonged incarceration and death in the unsanitary conditions of overcrowded prisoner of war camps.

Regards

Jim
---------------
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Phil andrade
London, UK
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Re: The Vicksburg Campaign 1863--A Turning Point for the Union ?
Posted on: 7/14/2017 10:07:22 AM
Good point about the parole of the Vicksburg garrison, Jim.

Some accounts refer to the enormous manpower losses of the Confederates in this campaign , but gloss over the fact that the vast majority of these were men who took up arms again whenever or wherever they could.


Editing : The capitulation at Vicksburg coincided with Lee's retreat from Gettysburg. The fate of the Confederates captured at Gettysburg is grim to contemplate .

The research of John Busey and his son Travis, indicates that 23.7% - just under one quarter - of all the Southerners taken prisoner in the battle perished in Union captivity....and this, it must be noted, applies only to unwounded prisoners. This is an appalling death rate : but we must remind ourselves that so many men died from disease in that war, and that army life was so hazardous, that a good many of those men might have died anyway.

Regards , Phil
---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

John R. Price
Wilkes-Barre, PA, USA
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Posts: 553

Re: The Vicksburg Campaign 1863--A Turning Point for the Union ?
Posted on: 7/14/2017 12:12:15 PM
Phil,

I hear what your saying about disease but the North didn't suffer the shortages in food or clothing or gold for that matter that the Confederacy did. Very good accout in the unit history of Grandburry's Bridage of their time in camp Douglas POW Camp after being captured at Ark Post. Might open your eyes a little
---------------
A battle long forgotten by our country in a war never understood by our country.
"to satisfy our endless needs and justify our bloody deeds, in the name of destiny and in the name of God"


John R. Price
Wilkes-Barre, PA, USA
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant
Posts: 553

Re: The Vicksburg Campaign 1863--A Turning Point for the Union ?
Posted on: 7/14/2017 12:16:38 PM
Jim,

In 64 no doubt and really in 63 once Grant destroys the rail line from Jackson to Edwards Depot because once destroyed logistically Johnston has no hope of supporting any attempt to retake Vicksburg. No army could operate for long outside a 25 mile limit from a railhead. Once past that the wagons have to devote too much of their load to supplying themselves with fodder and feed for a round trip and will wear down too quickly.
---------------
A battle long forgotten by our country in a war never understood by our country.
"to satisfy our endless needs and justify our bloody deeds, in the name of destiny and in the name of God"


anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 6098
http:// 82.44.47.99
Re: The Vicksburg Campaign 1863--A Turning Point for the Union ?
Posted on: 7/14/2017 12:47:21 PM
Many thanks John for the wake up call- reminding me of the logistical problems Johnston would have had- IF he was in a position to make any attempt to regain Vicksburg.The destruction of the rail link certainly put paid to that as a possibility-ie.the retaking of Vicksburg was impossible.

Regards

jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

Phil andrade
London, UK
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Re: The Vicksburg Campaign 1863--A Turning Point for the Union ?
Posted on: 7/15/2017 2:47:52 AM
Some of this Vicksburg stuff.....you couldn't make it up !

Admiral Porter constructed a dummy gunboat at a cost of less than ten dollars, with cardboard cannons and artificial stacks etc. It fooled the Confederates into relinquishing some Yankee craft that they had seized.

Regards, Phil
---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
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Posts: 6098
http:// 82.44.47.99
Re: The Vicksburg Campaign 1863--A Turning Point for the Union ?
Posted on: 7/15/2017 4:03:37 AM
The Battle of Vicksburg effected the Civil War because the Union got full control of the Mississippi river therefore taking over and shutting down the confederates trade, transportation, and military/fortifications.

"Vicksburg is the key. The war can never be brought to a close until the key is in our pocket."-President Abe Lincoln. The union wanted full control of the Mississippi river because they knew that was the Confederate's main source of supplies.

The Battle of Vicksburg effected the Confederates military a lot because most of the forts and troops were at Vicksburg when General Pemberton surrendered. At Vicksburg there was 6,000 casualties and after they surrendered they were forced to stack their guns, giving the Union 172 artillery pieces (large guns and weapons such as cannons)and 60,000 muskets

Most of the Confederates trade was transported on the Mississippi river. It was hard for the South to get good supplies, now it was going to be even harder.


Regards

Jim
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Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

John R. Price
Wilkes-Barre, PA, USA
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Posts: 553

Re: The Vicksburg Campaign 1863--A Turning Point for the Union ?
Posted on: 7/15/2017 12:29:48 PM
Jim,

No the Union wanted full control of the Miss River so as to be able to better transport Northern Midwestern products to market. To be able to basically give away Midwestern foods to England and France to keep those put out of work by the Cotton embargo feed and not clamoring for recognition and support to the Confederacy. As Mike pointed out before the Confederate supply angle was already accomplished.
---------------
A battle long forgotten by our country in a war never understood by our country.
"to satisfy our endless needs and justify our bloody deeds, in the name of destiny and in the name of God"


anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 6098
http:// 82.44.47.99
Re: The Vicksburg Campaign 1863--A Turning Point for the Union ?
Posted on: 7/15/2017 1:05:11 PM

Quote:
No the Union wanted full control of the Miss River so as to be able to better transport Northern Midwestern products to market.




Quote:
The Battle of Vicksburg effected the Civil War because the Union got full control of the Mississippi river therefore taking over and shutting down the confederates trade, transportation, and military/fortifications.


John -are these statements not the same ???

Regards

jim
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Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
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Re: The Vicksburg Campaign 1863--A Turning Point for the Union ?ada
Posted on: 7/15/2017 1:20:42 PM
Hi,

Funny that we are discussing Vicksburg. I am currently reading Confederate Corsair, the life of L Charles W. Savez Read. He was commander of the CSS Arkansas, which against all odds raised havoc with the Mississippi Union Fleet. Another example of a small group of Confederates, holding out against all odds.

Regards,
MD
---------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

John R. Price
Wilkes-Barre, PA, USA
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant
Posts: 553

Re: The Vicksburg Campaign 1863--A Turning Point for the Union ?
Posted on: 7/15/2017 1:52:58 PM
Jim,

No the first is all about the advantages to the economics of Union Midwestern states and the second is about the disadvantages to the Confederate war economy. Plus the truth is that Confederate trade and transportation had already been shut down. They only controlled a small stretch of the Miss and they didn't have the rail connections to exploit it. Also Confederate control of the west bank was tenuous at best even in that stretch controlled on the east bank. It was about opening it to Union advantage no closing it to Confederate disadvantage.
---------------
A battle long forgotten by our country in a war never understood by our country.
"to satisfy our endless needs and justify our bloody deeds, in the name of destiny and in the name of God"


anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 6098
http:// 82.44.47.99
Re: The Vicksburg Campaign 1863--A Turning Point for the Union ?
Posted on: 7/15/2017 2:26:18 PM
Now John-that is not exactly what Lincoln said-I do however agree with the "spin" that you have put on this issue-you are getting far too smart for me-"It was about opening it to Union advantage, not closing it to Confederate disadvantage." but I think it is quite mischievous to make that suggestion.I can almost hear you laughing.

PS My shift is up -Off line-back tomorrow hopefully


Regards

Jim
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Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
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Posts: 6098
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Re: The Vicksburg Campaign 1863--A Turning Point for the Union ?
Posted on: 7/16/2017 3:40:15 AM
John--I did not mean to be rude- only jocular-i do hope that you will accept that.

IMO the Battle of Vicksburg Objectives had Factors that hindered the South certainly; but each side had different objectives going into the battle. The Union already had control of New Orleans and most of the Mississippi River. But to gain full control of the Mississippi River they desperately needed to take control of Vicksburg, Mississippi.

So the Union’s objective going into the Battle of Vicksburg was to gain full control of the Mississippi River. The Confederates, however just wanted to keep tight control of Mississippi and not surrender to the Union.

The Union was victorious in this battle because of the strategic campaign devised by Major General Ulysses S. Grant. It consisted of military tactics like diversions and a siege, which cut off all forms of communications between the western and eastern parts of the Confederacy. In addition, the Union’s commanders had a stronger control of their troops; and were much more organized when it came to mobilizing them.

The strong alliance with the navy, under Admiral David D. Porter also made it possible for Grant to more efficiently take control of the Mississippi River. Lastly, the Union outnumbered the confederacy in terms of soldiers. What enabled the Union to win?

The Union, previously, had accomplished operations that ceded them control over parts of the Mississippi River. However, when the siege at Vicksburg caused hunger, sickness and depression, and Pemberton surrendered, the Union was granted with complete control of the Mississippi River.

This divided the Confederacy since it cut off Arkansas, Louisiana, and Texas from it. The acquisition of the Mississippi River gave the Union a major economic asset since it permitted the trading of goods and supplies. This battle also prevented the alliance of the Confederate States with any foreign country such as Britain.

If the south had been the victor, the British would have seen its potential and would have then recognized its economic importance; this would’ve led to the help granted by Great Britain’s superb navy. Contribution to the Civil War

Due to a Confederate defeat there were factors that hindered the South from winning this battle. The Confederate economy was in desperate shape, southern planters and farmers were losing control of their slave labour force, and a large amount of poorly provisioned soldiers were deserting from the Confederate army.

All of these factors resulted in a weak, hungry army that could not defend their city from the powerful, artillery supplied Union. Why the Turning Point?

The Battle of Vicksburg was definitely the turning point of the Civil War. Not only did it contribute to the deterioration of the Confederacy’s morale, but it also physically divided it in half. The western part of the Confederate country was under the Union’s control, preventing the use of any resources in that area.

The loss of the Mississippi River vastly affected the South’s economy and it also gave the Union a water route that could allow them to travel from the north to the south and vice-versa. Lastly, the Union’s victory killed the chances of an alliance between the Confederate States and any foreign power.


The Civil war would have drastically changed if the Confederates took the win in this Battle of Vicksburg. The Confederates were already mentally defeated and a win at the Battle of Vicksburg would have boosted their moral and possibly gave them a win at Gettysburg.

A Confederate win at the Battle of Vicksburg would abruptly stop the Union from gaining full control of the Mississippi River and stop part of their Anaconda Plan.

Since the Battle of Vicksburg occurred early in the war, a Confederate win will set the mood of the war and will give the Confederates a boost in their morale/motivation.

Regards

Jim



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John R. Price
Wilkes-Barre, PA, USA
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E-8 Master Sergeant
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Re: The Vicksburg Campaign 1863--A Turning Point for the Union ?
Posted on: 7/16/2017 12:31:41 PM
Jim,

No problems

The point of Mike Johnson's I'm reinforcing is that even with Vicksburg the rail connections East had already been basically severed. I do agree about the need to the horses and mules but if they have to be driven on foot to the East rather than by train too many of them are going to be casualties along the way, Ark, Mizzu and Texas were the least populous and least productive states, the manpower available and production isn't going to make a large difference and it becomes even less important without rail connections. Plus the Confederate economy needed to export internationally cotton and the Miss River exit at New Orleans was closed by capture and blockade.

Full navigation of the Miss is more important economically to the North, specifically the Midwest grain belt. It also goes a long way in foreign diplomacy helping to buy off England and France.

The Confederates "won" at Vicksburg SEVEN times. They stopped Grant and made him re-plan and try again over and over. A win in this particular attempt while being good for morale would only be temporary as another would soon be made if not by Grant then Sherman or on and on. Until the political will of the North is broken and the Republican Party voted out of office the war will continue. That is the elections of Nov 1864. I'm sorry but the real turning point is Atlanta because it cements victory in the elections for Lincoln and the Republicans.

---------------
A battle long forgotten by our country in a war never understood by our country.
"to satisfy our endless needs and justify our bloody deeds, in the name of destiny and in the name of God"


anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 6098
http:// 82.44.47.99
Re: The Vicksburg Campaign 1863--A Turning Point for the Union ?
Posted on: 7/16/2017 1:13:47 PM
But John -the Title of this thread includes the words "A Turning Point for the Union" and I dare say that Atlanta was probably a more significant "turning point"in this war; but I am not sufficiently knowledgeable to know the "full import" of an electoral victory for Lincoln and the Republic. However I do realise that Lincoln had run this war from Day 1, and a change of leadership at this juncture- would not have been a good move.

PS. Look out for a new thread from me soon

My grateful Thanks for having me along for this one

Best Regards

Jim
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Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

 (1861-1865) Civil War Battles (Western Theater)    
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