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Steve Clements
Toronto, ON, Canada
top 20
E-7 Sgt First Class
Moderator
Posts: 404

Re: Fidel has died
Posted on: 11/28/2016 9:56:24 AM

Quote:
The reaction in much of the press (and beyond) that's simply a case of good riddance to another dynastic dictator is far too simplistic.

Cuba under Castro eliminated homelessness; brought literacy and numeracy up to previously unthinkable levels; booted out the mob and predatory business that was asset stripping Cuba; introduced universal free at the point of use healthcare; eliminated extreme poverty; and didn't pursue an agenda (by force of arms) of making every system of the Government the same throughout the world. I wonder how Cuban stacks up morally against the Western democracies who have instigated regime change wherever and whenever it suited their global realpolitik outlook? Let's also remember that Castro frequently allowed dissidents against his regime to leave Cuba (by way of voluntary/involuntary exile) - I'm sure it would have been simpler and safer for his regime to simply have them all eliminated.

A dictator he was, and I'm no fan of his political outlook (undemocratic socialism/communism), nor his flagrant and numerous human rights abuses but there is much the Governments of the Western liberal democracies can learn from Cuba (in strictly policy terms, I must clarify), particularly those countries where millions upon millions live in poverty, have no access to decent healthcare, poor levels of education and suffer from generational unemployment thanks to the capitalist offshore hedge fund tax haven asset-stripping globalisation agenda.

Cheers,

Colin
--Lightning


As BW has noted, Castro's net worth is estimated to be between $900mm and a billion dollars. A real man of the people!

Lightning
Glasgow, UK
top 20
E-7 Sgt First Class


Posts: 442

Re: Fidel has died
Posted on: 11/28/2016 10:45:19 AM

Quote:
As BW has noted, Castro's net worth is estimated to be between $900mm and a billion dollars. A real man of the people!

--Steve Clements


Yep. He was a hypocrite, but let's not pretend that's a trait reserved for any one ideology or system of Government. How many democratically elected Members sit supposedly representing us, but in fact answer only to lobbyists, big business and even their own private investments? Why are democratically elected leaders, whose policies such as mass privatisation of common resources which have personally benefited either them or their closest friends/relatives, any more morally superior to an inherently flawed Communist dictator?

The whole way by which we govern countries throughout the globe is horrifyingly corrupt, but I find the cheering from some quarters at the death of Castro just a tad too repugnant, even by modern standards of hypocrisy (that's not directed at anybody on here, to be clear).

Cheers,

Colin
---------------
"There is no course open to us but to fight it out. Every position must be held to the last man: there must be no retirement. With our backs to the wall and believing in the justice of our cause, each one of us must fight to the end."

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5274

Re: Fidel has died
Posted on: 11/28/2016 10:47:59 AM
This conversation fails to deal with the conditions that Castro had to deal with once he rid the Cubans of Batista and the US and other foreign interests.

I think that the US embargo placed Cuba in an untenable position.

It was an over reaction by the Americans because so many of their businesses were impacted by the revolution.

I suspect that if relations are to be normalized, the US will place on the agenda, concerns about compensating those firms.

That's the issue here, not whether Cuba has democratized sufficiently.

We should remember that immediately after the revolution, the US recognized the new regime. Castro came to Washington and even visited with VP Nixon.

The US was concerned that Castro had executed about 500 of Batista's people but were also concerned that it would be business as usual.

And the Cuban economy was dominated by US businesses. Nearly all of Cuba's main export, sugar, was scooped up by the US at rock bottom prices.


Quote:
At the end of 1958, U.S. businesses owned 75 percent of Cuba's fertile land, 90 percent of its public services, and 40 percent of the sugar industry.


It is difficult claim sovereignty under these conditions. I am somewhat sympathetic to the plight of Cuba in that era. Most of our industries are controlled by foreigners, mostly Americans. It is a disturbing trend that has been trending for at least two decades.

Batista was the US's man in Havana. Any nascent rebellions were quashed with the aid of the Americans.

When Castro seized private property for the state, that meant that wholly own American subsidiaries of Cuban companies were angry.

Castro then added duties to American imports to the country which were coming in at little cost to the manufacturers.

The US ambassador met with Castro to express concern for Americans who had been arrested and concern for the seizure of American owned properties.


I think that a discussion of Castro and his influence, which should have been minimal on a world scale, could be very interesting.

He was more influential in world affairs than he had a right to expect. But it is difficult to have an objective discussion when we are bogged down at the tyrant, dictator, evil communist level.

There are some events that transpired that are worthy of inspection.


Cheers,

George


Steve Clements
Toronto, ON, Canada
top 20
E-7 Sgt First Class
Moderator
Posts: 404

Re: Fidel has died
Posted on: 11/28/2016 2:29:50 PM
Hi Colin,


Quote:
How many democratically elected Members sit supposedly representing us, but in fact answer only to lobbyists, big business and even their own private investments?


Most of them....(I am tempted to say "all of them"...).

However, off the top of my head, I can't think of any former Presidents, Prime Ministers etc., that retired with $900 mm in the bank (although maybe Hillary and Bill are getting close to the figure...).

More importantly, after the politician that you voted for, pisses you off sufficiently (a fairly inevitable process), you do have the ability to vote the slippery eel out of office. Needless to say, that was NOT the case in Cuba. Big difference.


Quote:
...but I find the cheering from some quarters at the death of Castro just a tad too repugnant,...


Understandable. But going to the other extreme (as I believe our P.M. did) is equally as inexcusable, IMO.

s.c.

morris crumley
Lawrenceville, GA, USA
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 1186

Re: Fidel has died
Posted on: 11/28/2016 5:14:59 PM
Does anyone remember the shit that got said about Thatcher when she died?

I do.

I know she was controversial. I know many loved her and many hated her. But, at the news of her death there some pretty disgusting comments made here.


Respects, Morris
---------------
"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."

scoucer
Berlin, Germany
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 1923

Re: Fidel has died
Posted on: 11/28/2016 6:51:36 PM

Quote:
Does anyone remember the shit that got said about Thatcher when she died?

I do.

I know she was controversial. I know many loved her and many hated her. But, at the news of her death there some pretty disgusting comments made here.


Respects, Morris
--morris crumley


No Morris. There were a lot of ( disgusting - make your choice) comments made in the UK about Thatcher. On MHO there were comments about the comments. Not the same thing. Personally, I had only contempt and disgust for Thatcher. Much as I had contempt and disgust for Castro. But I can understand the anger with both.

Trevor
---------------
`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie

Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.

brian grafton
Victoria, BC, Canada
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Moderator


Posts: 1294

Re: Fidel has died
Posted on: 11/28/2016 9:40:08 PM
Steve, some good points here, IMHO.

One small point. You say
Quote:
However, off the top of my head, I can't think of any former Presidents, Prime Ministers etc., that retired with $900 mm in the bank (although maybe Hillary and Bill are getting close to the figure...).

I can't either. but I also don't know who has been in power for quite the same length of time, and who was never removed from the trough. Am I right in thinking that his family also had at least a smattering of wealth? I would have thought (well, to be honest, assumed) that there would have to have been some money kicking around for him to attend the University of Havana.

I hate to raise the possibility that the Wales family might be rather well-heeled indeed, but the matriarch of that family has been at the helm for longer than the Castros were. Sadly, there are many who probably feel the Wales are little different from the Castros.

I would assume most of the Wales's wealth is not banked! Property, goods and chattels... . And ponies...

Cheers
Brian G
---------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly.

"The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5274

Re: Fidel has died
Posted on: 11/29/2016 8:02:09 AM
I think it hasty and largely incorrect to assume that the Cuban people hated Castro or that the people joining the huge line-ups to parade past his urn were compelled to do so and refused at their peril.

As well, I think that it would be incorrect to assume that the gleeful partying in Miami by Cuban ex-pats was representative of the Cubans still on the island.

Yes there are dissidents in Cuba and there are people who seek reform.

But there seems to be a sizeable group who trace their independence to the revolution and to their leader, Castro.

These people must see their lives as one of survival in the face of a trade embargo imposed by a huge power, the USA. With the loss of their benefactor, the USSR, it has become only more difficult.


I will go out on a limb to say that I think that the Cubans will choose sovereignty even under the harsh conditions imposed by a dictator rather than political and economic domination from the outside.

[Read More]


And I do hope that they can have both. Prosperity and independence.

It is up to Raul Castro and to Donald Trump to find some ground for negotiation. Raul has made some concessions but he is still dedicated to the goals of the revolution. That may change with the death of his brother.

Trump, the tweetmeister. God knows. If he had an ounce of sense he would work in the background and let the experts negotiate with the Cubans, quietly and without threats.

But he can't help himself can he?


Quote:

If Cuba is unwilling to make a better deal for the Cuban people, the Cuban/American people and the U.S. as a whole, I will terminate deal.

— Donald J. Trump (@realDonaldTrump) November 28, 2016



Does anyone else find this big stick diplomacy offensive?

There is an opportunity here that has been opened by Mr Obama.

Seize it Donald.


Cheers,


George



BWilson

top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 3296

Re: Fidel has died
Posted on: 11/29/2016 8:29:19 AM
 Seen otherwise, one could opine that Obama's diplomacy has resulted in little of substance. Obama gave THEM an opening. Time for THEM to do something. And if family Castro doesn't want to play, Trump needn't ask them to engage.

Cheers

BW
---------------
With occasional, fatigued glances at life's rear-view mirror from the other side of time.

Society's righteous paranoia lows profoundly. -- random wisdom of a computer

Lightning
Glasgow, UK
top 20
E-7 Sgt First Class


Posts: 442

Re: Fidel has died
Posted on: 11/29/2016 8:47:35 AM

Quote:
Does anyone else find this big stick diplomacy offensive?--George


Mr Trump will find out very quickly that the big stick diplomacy approach will not gain him much in the way of concessions when he visits Europe, Russia and China. The US needs international partners and friends as much as anybody else does.

As for Cuba, it's definitely time for the Castro family to relinquish their grip on the State and allow free and open elections under UN supervision. Let the Cuban people decide what kind country they want to be.

Cheers,

Colin
---------------
"There is no course open to us but to fight it out. Every position must be held to the last man: there must be no retirement. With our backs to the wall and believing in the justice of our cause, each one of us must fight to the end."

Steve Clements
Toronto, ON, Canada
top 20
E-7 Sgt First Class
Moderator
Posts: 404

Re: Fidel has died
Posted on: 11/29/2016 9:30:05 AM
George,


Quote:
These people must see their lives as one of survival in the face of a trade embargo imposed by a huge power, the USA.


From a 15 second google search, Cuba's primary exports are sugar, refined petroleum products, tobacco, liquor and depending on the source, drugs (pharma) or nickel. Well, nickel was a top five export a quarter century ago (from memory, Sherrit - a Canadian mining company - operated a mine in Cuba).

All of these products are essentially commodities that can be sold almost any where in the world. Not having access to the US market (where - quite frankly - the price of sugar has been kept artificially low) is not, IMO, a viable excuse for Cuba's dismal economy. The trade embargo should have had minimal impact on Cuba's economy.

Of course, NOT having access to US investment dollars is a different matter. THAT is the real issue...especially post the collapse of the USSR. But you seem to object to an infusion of American money into Cuba. Although I didn't hear any objections about Soviet money going into Cuba....


Quote:
I will go out on a limb to say that I think that the Cubans will choose sovereignty even under the harsh conditions imposed by a dictator rather than political and economic domination from the outside.


Seriously??? You actually believe this? I gotta tell you George, you are not doing much to 'help' my already somewhat low opinion of the Canadian teaching profession.

There is no "sovereignty" without economic freedom. The Cuban people live in poverty....Castro died a billionaire. I think that is disgusting.

s.c.

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5274

Re: Fidel has died
Posted on: 11/29/2016 9:51:55 AM

Quote:
 Seen otherwise, one could opine that Obama's diplomacy has resulted in little of substance. Obama gave THEM an opening. Time for THEM to do something. And if family Castro doesn't want to play, Trump needn't ask them to engage.

Cheers

BW
--BWilson


I respect your views but cannot agree. The opening is for a negotiation hopefully leading to normalization.

It takes two willing partners to engage in a negotiation.

But if the US insists upon democratization in the American image and full reparations for properties seized so many years ago, as a quid pro quo before negotiations begin, then the process will likely fail.

What is it that the Cubans are supposed to do that will please the Americans sufficiently that they will be encouraged to continue to talk?

Cheers,

George



morris crumley
Lawrenceville, GA, USA
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 1186

Re: Fidel has died
Posted on: 11/29/2016 10:49:05 AM
The best argument the left comes up with that Castro was so wonderful for his people is in education and healthcare.

OK. He made sure the masses could get an education. To what end? It is a fact that many of Cuba`s best educated still wind up driving cabs or working jobs that don`t require a high level of education to be in a position of getting their hands on the US dollar instead of virtually worthless Cuban currency. So one can argue that, in Cuba, a great education does not translate into making much money or being able to pursue ones true dreams and ambitions.

Healthcare in Cuba is first rate....just ask Micheal Moore.

No, on second thought don`t. First off, Fidel nearly died because of bad treatment. He had to bring in outside help. Perhaps it was because the doctors treating him were young and inexperienced....the better doctors were driving cabs and working at the hotels for the American dollars.

Infant mortality rate in Cuba is higher than many countries, the US being way back. We found out about this nonsense back during the days of the Obamacare debate here in the US. The WHO rating for healthcare gives a generous head start in it`s rankings to socialized medicine. When it comes to infant mortality rates, countries compile the stats differently...there is no common computations of how a country arrives at it`s infant mortality rate. The US considers a premature birth that has no chance of survival past a few minutes as a "live birth." Other nations do not.

The WHO also basically just accepts "self reporting." And, despite a considerable lapse in time it takes to compile annual statistics and properly review them before release...Cuba makes it`s reports remarkably quickly. So, either Cuba is the most avanced society on earth in compiling, reviewing and releasing such information...or they just make the shit up.

I`m bettin` on option number two.

Respects, Morris
---------------
"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5274

Re: Fidel has died
Posted on: 11/29/2016 10:54:28 AM

Quote:
George,




Quote:
I will go out on a limb to say that I think that the Cubans will choose sovereignty even under the harsh conditions imposed by a dictator rather than political and economic domination from the outside.


Seriously??? You actually believe this? I gotta tell you George, you are not doing much to 'help' my already somewhat low opinion of the Canadian teaching profession.

There is no "sovereignty" without economic freedom. The Cuban people live in poverty....Castro died a billionaire. I think that is disgusting.

s.c.
--Steve Clements



That's a surprising final comment Steve. I would have expected better from you. Since I did not see a "happy face" I will assume that the insult was intended.

But please, save your judgements for me and not a whole profession of dedicated people. I don't like being called stupid because I am not. I also do not see all historical events in black and white or in economic terms.

I do not understand people who see the world only through a frame of reference moulded by an economics degree and the narrow limitations of those opinions. But I do not insult you if that description fits. I try to understand. There is always something to learn.

Define sovereignty any way that you wish but if you examine the history of Cuba and all the other "sugar islands", you may come to the conclusion that they will choose hardship and a degree of poverty over domination by foreigners. Cuba for Cubans in other words.

That they may not appreciate that there are other political models that may suit them is the result of keeping them in poverty and in a state of a mini-Cold War with the US.

Castro was able to blame his own economic failures on the "imperialistic Americans" and that then seems to dominate the Cuban psyche.

That he was a poor economist is clear. Centralized and nationalized economies failed in the USSR and they failed in Cuba.

To assert that the embargo had nothing to do with destabilization in Cuba seems incorrect. Why continue with it then if Castro was meeting the goals of the US administration all by himself?

With the embargo, Cuba lost its main market for sugar, the USA. American businesses owned the plantations and sold the product in the US for lower than market value.

Fulgencio Batista was complicit in keeping wages low and labour protests to a minimum.

With that gone and desperate for money, Castro turned to the USSR that bought his sugar at a guaranteed price, irrespective of market value, until the USSR collapsed.

Things did improve for the Cubans with Castro having been wooed by his communist benefactor. But with all his eggs in one basket, the collapse of USSR was a disaster for Cuba.




I have no objections at all to US investment. Would that it had been there for the last 50 years but under the regulatory measures of the Cubans to ensure that the investors and the Cubans benefited. Under Batista, it was very one sided.

From what I understand, US businesses are preparing for the day that they may seek opportunities in Cuba and have been ramping up the planning stages with Mr. Obama's initiative in Cuba.


From the US State Dept. circa 1960 regarding the trade embargo. Proposed was:


Quote:
“a line of action that makes the greatest inroads in denying money and supplies to Cuba, to decrease monetary and real wages, to bring about hunger, desperation and the overthrow of the [Castro] government.”


Was it worth it? The people of Cuba are poor. Some aspects of their lives have improved but they still live under a dictatorship and a man whose economic policies have failed, as the US had hoped.

If commercial investment from the US provides a chance for profit, it will also enrich the Cubans and change their lives.

With that perhaps will come democratic reform. I think that the Cubans, once allowed to lift themselves from poverty, will then see that a quieter revolution is possible. That can happen over time.

BTW, the US did loosen some trade restrictions.


Quote:

n 2000, Congress approved a modest opening of the embargo. The Trade Sanctions Reform and Export Enhancement Act of 2000 allows cash-only sales to Cuba of U.S. farm products and medical supplies. The results of this opening have been quite amazing. Since 2000, total sales of farm products to Cuba have increased from virtually zero to $380 million last year. From dead last in U.S. farm export markets, Cuba ranked 25th last year out of 228 countries in total purchases of U.S. farm products. Cuba is now the fifth largest export market in Latin America for U.S. farm exports. American farmers sold more to Cuba last year than to Brazil. Our leading exports to Cuba are meat and poultry, rice, wheat, corn, and soybeans.

The American Farm Bureau estimates that Cuba could eventually become a $1 billion agricultural export market for products of U.S. farmers and ranchers. The embargo stifles another $250 million in potential annual exports of fertilizer, herbicides, pesticides and tractors. According to a study by the U.S. International Trade Commission, the embargo costs American firms a total of $700 million to $1.2 billion per year. Farmers in Texas and neighboring states are among the biggest potential winners. One study by Texas A&M University estimated that Texas ranks fifth among states in potential farm exports to Cuba, with rice, poultry, beef and fertilizer the top exports.


So it can work if the Cubans are open to investment regulated by them and if the US will stop insisting upon democratization in its image before progress can be made.

And there may be hope in Raul, once he gets through posturing and propping up his brother's legacy.

The economy has improved under Raul. It remains to be seen just how open he will allow things to become.


George

morris crumley
Lawrenceville, GA, USA
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 1186

Re: Fidel has died
Posted on: 11/29/2016 11:19:44 AM
Was not Raul the first of the brothers to join communist groups? I seem to recall that Castro was not so easily identified as his younger brother with direct ties to CCP and the Soviets.

I have little doubt that Raul will "open things up" since Cuba`s communist sponsors have a nasty habit of going bankrupt and collapsing.

And he will open up all the more readily if he is not required to make reforms.

Respects, Morris
---------------
"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 5936
http:// 82.44.47.99
Re: Fidel has died
Posted on: 11/29/2016 11:26:17 AM
Labour MP Clare Curran declared Fidel Castro a legend. Now you can claim as Clare does that this wasn’t meant as praise, but that is certainly how it came across to many people.

It was pointed out the legend banned independent trade unions and made strikes illegal plus executed 15,000 political opponents. Someone else pointed out he imposed massive Internet censorship.

Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5274

Re: Fidel has died
Posted on: 11/29/2016 11:34:25 AM
Hello Morris, you have dismissed all information about Cuba based on some assertion that everything must be a lie because the data comes from the WHO or because the Cubans falsified the data.

You didn't like Michael Moore's doc about Cuban medicine. I suspect that his doc about Canadian healthcare you have dismissed completely as well.



Quote:
OK. He made sure the masses could get and education. To what end? It is a fact that many of Cuba`s best educated still wind up driving cabs or working jobs that don`t require a high level of education to be in a position of getting their hands on the US dollar instead of virtually worthless Cuban currency. So one can argue that, in Cuba, a great education does not translate into making much money or being able to pursue ones true dreams and ambitions.


One of the first steps that any country that hopes to improve the lot of its people takes, is to ensure that they are literate. Undeniably this has been done in Cuba. It sets the framework for future success once the climate necessary for that to happen is allowed to exist.

Educated people are also able to analyze situations and hopefully are able to come up with creative solutions.

You have thousands of literate and educated people in your country who drive cab and make a mean latte. So do we.

So shall we stop teaching them to read and write because it is a waste of time?

Of the few successes under Castro, this one is a major accomplishment and paves the pathway for future success. I wouldn't dismiss it.


Quote:
Healthcare in Cuba is first rate....just ask Micheal Moore.

No, on second thought don`t. First off, Fidel nearly died because of bad treatment. He had to bring in outside help. Perhaps it was because the doctors treating him were young and inexperienced....the better doctors were driving cabs and working at the hotels for the American dollars.


So Morris, do you have proof that the doctors are driving cab?

Cuba uses its medical training facilities to train doctors from other poor countries. Propaganda? Sure probably a bit of that but Cuban doctors also do some excellent work in poverty stricken countries.

You may know that there are Americans who have attended medical school in Havana to take advantage of the free tuition and board.

They also learn about the Cuban medical philosophy which emphasizes preventative medicine and a delivery system at the local community level. We could learn something from that.

BTW, the Cuban life span is the same as in America and they have somehow managed to do it without the pharmaceuticals and equipment that they so need.


That argument is the same tired one that proponents of US health care like to use to prove that there is nothing wrong with it and needs no changes.

Remember that smart mouthed Senator who quizzed the Canadian health care professional on why the Premier of Newfoundland went to Florida for necessary heart surgery. She told him that the procedure was invented in Canada and the two doctors who pioneered it, worked out of two Toronto hospitals where the best outcomes in the world for that procedure exist.

So Castro needed help from a Russian expert. So what?


Quote:
Infant mortality rate in Cuba is higher than many countries, the US being way back. We found out about this nonsense back during the days of the Obamacare debate here in the US. The WHO rating for healthcare gives a generous head start in it`s rankings to socialized medicine. When it comes to infant mortality rates, countries compile the stats differently...there is no common computations of how a country arrives at it`s infant mortality rate. The US considers a premature birth that has no chance of survival past a few minutes as a "live birth." Other nations do not.

The WHO also basically just accepts "self reporting." And, despite a considerable lapse in time it takes to compile annual statistics and properly review them before release...Cuba makes it`s reports remarkably quickly. So, either Cuba is the most avanced society on earth in compiling, reviewing and releasing such information...or they just make the shit up.


Pretty hard to argue Morris. You don't believe the Cubans. You don't believe the WHO.

You want to explain the higher than expected infant mortality rate in the US on the basis of the differences in data but you don't seem to know how the Cubans collect their data.

It doesn't matter. You wouldn't believe it anyway.


It's impossible to discuss the issue Morris. You see conspiracies everywhere.


Anyway, here is the CIA's World Factbook and the data on infant mortality.

[Read More]

Dismiss it as you like.

You may like this newspaper article that speaks about what it is like to learn and practice medicine in Cuba.

Cuba practices what they call "medical diplomacy". Much to be admired even if they are godless communists.


[Read More]


Cheers,

George




Steve Clements
Toronto, ON, Canada
top 20
E-7 Sgt First Class
Moderator
Posts: 404

Re: Fidel has died
Posted on: 11/29/2016 11:37:45 AM
George,


Quote:
That's a surprising final comment Steve. I would have expected better from you. Since I did not see a "happy face" I will assume that the insult was intended.


No insult was intended (okay, I got a dig in at teachers...but you would be disappointed if I didn't).

My "disgusted" comment was directed at Castro being worth a billion dollars, in a country with widespread poverty.

I do not agree with what you wrote, but I certainly did not mean to call what you wrote "disgusting".


Quote:
I don't like being called stupid because I am not. I also do not see all historical events in black and white or in economic terms.


I didn't call you stupid....and I don't view historical events only in black and white. Although you are certainly implying that I do....so who is insulting who -:)


Quote:
To assert that the embargo had nothing to do with destabilization in Cuba seems incorrect.


I won't argue that it had "nothing" to do with Cuba's rather lacklustre economy, but I do view it as a sad excuse for a massive economic failure. I don't track sugar prices anymore (I am retired...), but in the not too distant past, any country that depended on selling sugar to the US for its primary source of revenue....would be in deep economic doo-doo.


Quote:
Define sovereignty any way that you wish...
As a pre-requisite, there cannot be political freedom without there being economic freedom. No private sector equates to complete and total dictatorship. This is what I see you supporting. Which, frankly, I still find both surprising.



Quote:
Fulgencio Batista was complicit in keeping wages low and labour protests to a minimum.


Okay, Batista was a corrupt pig. That does not - in any sense - justify almost 60 years of economic and political suppression from Castro. Frankly, what Batista did or did not so in the 1950's...is not relevant to the discussion at hand.


Quote:
With the embargo, Cuba lost its main market for sugar,


Sugar is a "commodity" that does not depend on any one purchaser. Americans don't want to buy it (at a depressed price...as I noted previously, I seem to remember that US sugar prices have been kept artificially low for an extended period of time), sell it to someone else.

IMO, blaming the Americans' refusal to not buy a low value added commodity....especially when the Russians were willing to pay a premium price for it...is a "straw man" argument. IMO, the real reason for the weakness of the Cuban economy is the disallowance of most forms of private enterprise. I mean, do we really need any more proof that "communism" does not work?

Somewhat ironically, Canada is now in a similar position with regard to one of our primary exports, crude oil. The Americans don't want to buy any more of it....and in fact will likely need less in the future. Fracking, much to the Saudis surprise, has proven to be remarkably resilient. So, it is up to us to find new markets for our oil....which we are doing a really, really bad job of doing. As you know, we cannot even get people in Quebec and/or the Maritimes to buy Canadian oil....let alone find ways to sell our oil on the open market.



s.c.








BWilson

top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 3296

Re: Fidel has died
Posted on: 11/29/2016 12:02:04 PM
It takes two willing partners to engage in a negotiation.

George,

 I agree. Obama made a gesture. Let us see where it goes. To date, Cuba's official response has not been enthusiastic IMO. If Castro's family aren't interested, then the USA should make no further gestures. Let them be, but the USA owes them no special support to continue a Castro-esque regime. It is time for change, and has been for decades.

Cheers

BW
---------------
With occasional, fatigued glances at life's rear-view mirror from the other side of time.

Society's righteous paranoia lows profoundly. -- random wisdom of a computer

BWilson

top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 3296

Re: Fidel has died
Posted on: 11/29/2016 12:06:53 PM
Labour MP Clare Curran declared Fidel Castro a legend.

 Yeah, Il Duce was something of a 'legend' as well. Had he survived in power for some sixty years, would politicians be falling over themselves to laud his rule? Probably not. In fact, the Left cheered when he was summarily executed by communist partisans who appointed themselves his judges, jury, and executioners. I wonder if we can get Justin to issue a belated eulogy for Benito?

 Hey! Justin did make a eulogy for Benito ... who says the internet can't be fun ?



Cheers

BW
---------------
With occasional, fatigued glances at life's rear-view mirror from the other side of time.

Society's righteous paranoia lows profoundly. -- random wisdom of a computer

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5274

Re: Fidel has died
Posted on: 11/29/2016 12:41:08 PM
Steve, perhaps we can end our feud. Parry and thrust is never a technique that promotes understanding. Peace then.

I am proud of what I did for a living and no doubt you are too.

Your comment perhaps unintended, did strike a nerve. I admit that.

I think that we need people educated in the sciences, in economics and yes, the liberal arts to bring out the best in the country. All knowledge is valuable.



With respect to the pre-Castro economy and with a little light reading, it seems that our friend Fulgencio had a grand stimulus plan to diversify the economy from its one trick pony status as a sugar based economy.

He initiated some reforms with Cuba's central bank to encourage low cost loans and borrowed money heavily to finance some public works projects and to encourage diversification.

I don't understand most of the technical details but you will.

What I do understand is that Batista was no FDR and whatever he wanted to happen did not. Cuba's GDP just after the war was on a par with Italy's. Perhaps that is not saying much but something went terribly wrong in Batista's Cuba.

The economy did not diversify and the gap between the rich and the poor widened. Racism contributed to the gap as the black population, many descendants of slaves, became very poor while the whites controlled the country.

What went wrong I cannot say but Castro did not inherit a diversified economy. His bargaining chip was still sugar and it was being sold below market value.


This is PHD thesis with the topic, the Cuban Economy under Batista. I get the gist of it but I don't really understand how Batista failed to diversify. Did he just give up?

He received economic advice from some of the top economists around the world including several from the US including Harvard.

[Read More]


Cheers,

George

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5274

Re: Fidel has died
Posted on: 11/29/2016 3:20:44 PM

Quote:
It takes two willing partners to engage in a negotiation.

George,

 I agree. Obama made a gesture. Let us see where it goes. To date, Cuba's official response has not been enthusiastic IMO. If Castro's family aren't interested, then the USA should make no further gestures. Let them be, but the USA owes them no special support to continue a Castro-esque regime. It is time for change, and has been for decades.

Cheers

BW
--BWilson


I used the word gesture first. I wish that I had not because the deal brokered by John Kerry is a positive change. It reads like a framework for further discussion, and while not a politician, I think that I understand that there is much behind the scenes work done by the bureaucrats of both countries.

I have read that some Americans feel that Obama has grovelled at the feet of a communist dictator. There is an opportunity here and the discussions need to continue.

What has ensued for the last year and a half seems to be much more than the opening of embassies and the rescinding of Cuba's designation as a supporter of terrorism.

This web site is used to publicize what the White House is doing so it will be biased. But this link shows a timeline of the different issues that the US and Cuba are discussing.

It would be a shame to see this initiative fail just so that Trump can feed his ego and indicate to his Florida constituents, just how tough he can be. (Yes, I see how my bias is revealed)

[Read More]

Normalization can be achieved between the two nations and necessary democratic reform in Cuba may result, if the talks are allowed to continue.

Mr. Obama has taken a big step. If Mr. Trump is prideful and foolish, he may scupper this arrangement and for what? Just to destroy the legacy of what I perceive as a pretty decent man.


EDIT: I was going to mention that Mr. Obama has sent the ball to Cuba's side of the court. The US, an outlier in its treatment of Cuba, now looks very good I think.

So let us see how Raul responds. There is evidence that he may be the reformer that his brother was not.


Cheers,


George

Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 2745

Re: Fidel has died
Posted on: 11/29/2016 6:34:23 PM
[Read More]

BBC take on it!
---------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

brian grafton
Victoria, BC, Canada
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Moderator


Posts: 1294

Re: Fidel has died
Posted on: 11/29/2016 9:35:12 PM
MD, as a thinking man and a US citizen, how do you feel about the BBC take on it?

I'll admit that, as a thinking man and a Canadian, the BBC's version is just slightly kinder than I would have been were I creating a visual obit for Mr Castro. I believe there was a huge difference between the Fidel Castro of 1959 and the Fidel Castro of 1964, between an idealistic young revolutionary who wanted the best for his country and a rather more sober satellite figure who was accepted by the losing side.

Do you remember that wonderful sign seen on the windows of the cabs of semis in the mid-60s: "Gas, grass or ass. Nobody rides for free."? That's what Mr Castro had to learn in 3 short years. By the time of the Cuban missile crisis, he had no viable choice but to allow Soviet missiles access to Cuban soil.

I always liked Nikita Krushchev. Forget his politic leaning for a moment: he was a living, breathing outrageously human poster boy for the godless, inhuman Soviet state. Pounding his shoe on the his desk at the UN, even if it is false reality, makes Nikita a human, and – I'd like to believe – me safer. I think that humanity was nowhere on display more obviously than when he "blinked" during the confrontation with President Kennedy over missiles in Cuba.

Dave, I think one of the unwritten things the BBC obit did well was demonstrate exactly how minor Mr Castro was in the larger world process. Cubans have been mourning the loss of a Cuban leader who did what he could for them, and railed against the superpower which punished his people for no acceptable reason.

I don't care which nations send representatives to his memorial service. I don't think the Cubans do either. He was a national leader of a small Caribbean nation that, by accident, became a tool and a demon in the global politics big countries play.

I don't think it matters which foreign dignitaries find their way to his memorial service. I think the majority of Cubans who have been lining up as a sign of respect to salute his ashes would rather not have foreign intruders on a time of national grief.

Cheers
Brian G
---------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly.

"The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.

BWilson

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E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 3296

Re: Fidel has died
Posted on: 11/30/2016 1:57:33 AM
I think the majority of Cubans who have been lining up as a sign of respect to salute his ashes would rather not have foreign intruders on a time of national grief.

 It will be interesting to see if his brother ensures the Cubans have the opportunity to do so many times over whether they particularly care to or not.

Cheers

BW
---------------
With occasional, fatigued glances at life's rear-view mirror from the other side of time.

Society's righteous paranoia lows profoundly. -- random wisdom of a computer

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5274

Re: Fidel has died
Posted on: 11/30/2016 5:53:37 AM

Quote:
I think the majority of Cubans who have been lining up as a sign of respect to salute his ashes would rather not have foreign intruders on a time of national grief.

 It will be interesting to see if his brother ensures the Cubans have the opportunity to do so many times over whether they particularly care to or not.

Cheers

BW
--BWilson


CBC has people on the ground in Havana. The outpouring of grief seems genuine. The camera shots are from a distance in many cases so people aren't putting on a show for CBC.

There are long lines of mourners, traipsing their way to the place of commemoration. I don't know what to call it. His ashes aren't there.

They interviewed a couple of younger people who seemed less engaged in the mourning process. One said that he wouldn't be going to the final commemoration because he had to study for his exams and that he felt that that was more important.

Other people, often older were quite grief stricken. Comments were of the nature that Fidel had given them a lot and even though things could be better, they were happy that he had helped them.

There was no revolutionary patter, no hyperbole. Just quiet comments that they were thankful for what he tried to do for them.

It remains to be seen whether there will be an orchestrated commemoration in the square but I suspect that regular Cubans will fill it because they respect what the man has tried to do for them.

The dissidents won't be there of course. That is not permitted.

But we should not assume that the grief we see and the respect offered to Castro is manufactured.


Cheers,

George





OpanaPointer
St. Louis, MO, USA
top 20
E-7 Sgt First Class
Posts: 465

Re: Fidel has died
Posted on: 11/30/2016 6:10:32 AM
There was genuine grief when Stalin died. Most people drink the Kool-aid willingly.

BWilson

top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 3296

Re: Fidel has died
Posted on: 11/30/2016 6:37:34 AM
But we should not assume that the grief we see and the respect offered to Castro is manufactured.

 You misunderstand. My comment is about what comes after the funeral. Will this become another version of an ever-preserved Lenin? Not an idle question. Fidel served the revolution as a symbol when he was alive. He is equally capable of doing so while dead even if he is not aware of doing so.

Cheers

BW
---------------
With occasional, fatigued glances at life's rear-view mirror from the other side of time.

Society's righteous paranoia lows profoundly. -- random wisdom of a computer

BWilson

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E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 3296

Re: Fidel has died
Posted on: 11/30/2016 6:42:57 AM

Quote:
There was genuine grief when Stalin died. Most people drink the Kool-aid willingly.
--OpanaPointer


 My (Polish) sister-in-law had a schoolgirl companion back when Stalin died. The companion had been told the news and was weeping on a street in the city. An older woman asked what was wrong. The schoolgirl said she was crying because "Papa Stalin" had died. The old woman scolded her for crying, and said, "Don't be dumb! The man was an ogre." Poor kid must have been really confused at that point.

Cheers

BW
---------------
With occasional, fatigued glances at life's rear-view mirror from the other side of time.

Society's righteous paranoia lows profoundly. -- random wisdom of a computer

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5274

Re: Fidel has died
Posted on: 11/30/2016 1:57:34 PM

Quote:
But we should not assume that the grief we see and the respect offered to Castro is manufactured.

 You misunderstand. My comment is about what comes after the funeral. Will this become another version of an ever-preserved Lenin? Not an idle question. Fidel served the revolution as a symbol when he was alive. He is equally capable of doing so while dead even if he is not aware of doing so.

Cheers

BW
--BWilson


I just heard an interview with the Canadian Ambassador to Cuba in the '90's. His name was Entwhistle. He had a few hundred hours of face to face with Castro and had some iinciteful things to say.

He didn't see the man as having a particularly big ego and would be surprised if Fidel had authorized anything ostentatious at his death. He said that he was an infinitely curious man who would invite him over to discuss wheat production in Saskatchewan or separatism in Quebec. These discussion didn't always have to do with anything that would benefit Cuba. The man was just curious.

That doesn't mean that Raul won't create a monument to the Revolution with Fidel at the centre piece. However, there is no body to embalm. Somehow an urn of ashes just doesn't do it.

Raul is stepping down from his post as President in 2018. I think then we shall see whether the new man will be able to enact reforms that are needed.

Of course, we have to believe that Raul will be watching every move.


I am hoping that Raul will want to leave a legacy of his own, one of reform. It has started. Cubans may own small private businesses.

We shall see how bold he wants to be and how much rope he grants to the new President.


Cheers,

George

BWilson

top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 3296

Re: Fidel has died
Posted on: 11/30/2016 2:23:25 PM
 It is all symbolic -- body or urn. They can create a mausoleum in either case. It -is- a trend for communist dictators: Lenin, Mao, and Ho Chi Minh. It will all turn on what the brother wants to do at this point. I don't see him suddenly embracing much less than Fidel's system. He'll play a public game to win sympathy, but keep the reins of power within the Castro family until he dies or someone forces him to back off at the point of a gun.

Cheers

BW
---------------
With occasional, fatigued glances at life's rear-view mirror from the other side of time.

Society's righteous paranoia lows profoundly. -- random wisdom of a computer

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5274

Re: Fidel has died
Posted on: 11/30/2016 3:24:56 PM

Quote:
 It is all symbolic -- body or urn. They can create a mausoleum in either case. It -is- a trend for communist dictators: Lenin, Mao, and Ho Chi Minh. It will all turn on what the brother wants to do at this point. I don't see him suddenly embracing much less than Fidel's system. He'll play a public game to win sympathy, but keep the reins of power within the Castro family until he dies or someone forces him to back off at the point of a gun.

Cheers

BW
--BWilson


I think that Raul has already taken a step away from the old Soviet style system.

We may see the Cubans move toward a capitalist system without bringing in democratic reforms.

It has worked for the Chinese and the US and the rest of us are clamouring to do business there.


Even Fidel used to give long winded speeches about economic reform.

But Raul has actually done something.

There have been social reforms:

Cubans may travel.

In 2018 there will be limits on the number of terms that political types can serve and age limits.

Talks with civil liberty groups resulted in the release of some political prisoners.

Religious leaders have been consulted to ensure religious freedom in a communist state



Economically, Cubans may start small businesses.

Cuba imports way too much food. Nearly 70% of its foodstuffs are imported.

So now Cubans may lease real estate to start businesses and so may co-operatives which are still part of the socialist model.


My view is that this embargo has been punitive and not just to the Cubans. It was also an extra-territorial embargo that stopped foreign companies in other countries from trading with Cuba.

The Helms-Burton Act should be repealed. All it has done is further punish innocent Cubans but also ticked off America's important trading partners.

This means that the US can take punitive measures against foreign companies that trade in Cuba and want access to the US market.


US and foreign companies are sniffing at Cuba in anticipation of investment opportunities. So let it it happen.

The optics will be very good for the US government. Most of the world thinks that the embargo should end.

And US investment will reform the island.

We see Chinese people demanding reform coincidental with the rise in their standard of living.

It can happen in Cuba too.

For the life of me I cannot see why the US maintains such a hatred for this place that can do it no harm. The US has long ago normalized relations with some sketchy governments.


Cheers,

George

morris crumley
Lawrenceville, GA, USA
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 1186

Re: Fidel has died
Posted on: 11/30/2016 4:40:54 PM
I ache for what is lost. I mourn the end of greatness and the death of a man who reshaped so many lives.


........no, not Fidel.

Jim Delligatti has died. The man who freed billions and billions of calories to enter our bodies with delight...the man who gave us the Big Mac almost 50 years ago.

I may have a good cry tonight....and I`ll take some fries with that!

Respects, Morris
---------------
"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."

BWilson

top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 3296

Re: Fidel has died
Posted on: 12/1/2016 3:19:36 AM

Quote:
I ache for what is lost. I mourn the end of greatness and the death of a man who reshaped so many lives.


........no, not Fidel.

Jim Delligatti has died. The man who freed billions and billions of calories to enter our bodies with delight...the man who gave us the Big Mac almost 50 years ago.

I may have a good cry tonight....and I`ll take some fries with that!

Respects, Morris
--morris crumley


 My favorite is the plain cheeseburger. No "secret sauce", no excess of lettuce and tomato. Just a cheeseburger. That, a large fries, and a black coffee. Mmm.

Cheers

BW
---------------
With occasional, fatigued glances at life's rear-view mirror from the other side of time.

Society's righteous paranoia lows profoundly. -- random wisdom of a computer

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5274

Re: Fidel has died
Posted on: 12/1/2016 7:04:08 AM

Quote:
I ache for what is lost. I mourn the end of greatness and the death of a man who reshaped so many lives.


........no, not Fidel.

Jim Delligatti has died. The man who freed billions and billions of calories to enter our bodies with delight...the man who gave us the Big Mac almost 50 years ago.

I may have a good cry tonight....and I`ll take some fries with that!

Respects, Morris
--morris crumley


Hi Morris. Help me out here.

Was there a subtle subtext to this post? I often miss those if that's the case and then I start to analyze or even over analyze.

Were you trying to soften a bit of sarcasm or were you suggesting that I and some others may be looking at Fidel with rose coloured glasses?

Or were you trying to equate Fidel's legacy with something so mundane and unimportant as a poor quality burger?

Or were you just having a bit of fun?

You can tell me to lighten up if you want.


Cheers,

George

scoucer
Berlin, Germany
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 1923

Re: Fidel has died
Posted on: 12/1/2016 7:48:24 AM

Quote:
I ache for what is lost. I mourn the end of greatness and the death of a man who reshaped so many lives.


........no, not Fidel.

Jim Delligatti has died. The man who freed billions and billions of calories to enter our bodies with delight...the man who gave us the Big Mac almost 50 years ago.

I may have a good cry tonight....and I`ll take some fries with that!

Respects, Morris
--morris crumley


Reshaped so many lives or bodies ?

Trevor
---------------
`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie

Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.

morris crumley
Lawrenceville, GA, USA
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 1186

Re: Fidel has died
Posted on: 12/1/2016 9:25:17 AM
George, I was just having some fun...and not aiming anything at you personally.

However, I will take advantage to answer a couple of points.

You said in a previous post that I "don`t trust the WHO." It`s not a question of not trusting the agency. The fact is that if you collect data about infant mortality rates, and use them to rank countries...and the various country`s from which that data is drawn has differing definitions of what constitutes a "live birth" then your data is meaningless. The WHO allows country`s to "self report" the data...the WHO does not fact check anything.

It`s not just comparing apples to oranges...it`s comparing apples to fig trees.

Also, the Washington Post, a publication that can not be considered a "right-wing rag" did some fact checking on Justin Trudeau`s fawning statement about Fidel Castro`s great improvement during his tenure. They gave Mr. Trudeau three pinocchio`s .

The article also makes mention of my own sentiments regarding the stats that the United Nations and the WHO rely upon....."We also have to acknowledge that any data from the Cuban government is naturally suspect. Experts say that official statistics must be treated gingerly and skeptically, as police states generally are not known to provide accurate numbers. In particular, Cuba`s relatively high ranking-67 out of 188 countries-in the United Nation`s Human Developement Index appears to be affected by questionable evidence."

( This is not just confined to "police states' my own country continues to force upon it`s people the lie that our unemployment rate is below five percent...close to what is considered "full employment" this despite a record number of people who are not employed and have stopped looking for jobs...who are not even counted. The actual rate is more like ten + percent.)

When I was researching the facts about the WHO`s rankings of healthcare I discovered that experts were saying the same thing about the speedy ability of Cuba to report what other nations take months and months to compile and present. In most government data compilations it takes quite some time to present the final data, in the case of IRS and FBI, just to name a couple there is sometimes a lag time of one to two years before the data can be presented. Cuba seemed to be able to present data to the WHO almost instantly.

As to the Washington Post article, it compares the pre-revolution Cuban Republic to the post revolution Castro Cuba and finds that, while Castro insured that the people had access to the same amount of misery...pre- Castro Cuba had a much higher standard of living, higher GDP, and though it was under the grip of a terrible dictator who was replaced with another terrible dictator, the facts don`t support Trudeau`s glowing assertions that Castro improved Cuba`s lot.

Respects, Morris

---------------
"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."

morris crumley
Lawrenceville, GA, USA
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 1186

Re: Fidel has died
Posted on: 12/1/2016 9:45:11 AM
Bodies too Trevor!

Respects, Morris
---------------
"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5274

Re: Fidel has died
Posted on: 12/1/2016 2:24:30 PM

Quote:
Also, the Washington Post, a publication that can not be considered a "right-wing rag" did some fact checking on Justin Trudeau`s fawning statement about Fidel Castro`s great improvement during his tenure. They gave Mr. Trudeau three pinocchio`s .


And what facts did they check? Do they dispute the claims that health care and education levels are high and better than before Fidel?

So now we are all supposed to believe that Cubans aren't as healthy as we thought and that they aren't as literate as we thought. Are they just as unhealthy and poor as they were in Batista's day.

Shall I extend that argument to say that reports that the Cubans are poor must also be false? Where does all that data about the low average wage in Cuba come from? How about the information that they can't get tooth brushes or feminine hygiene products. What about the fact that the grocery stores don't have much food in them?

Where did that all come from?

The information about poverty is true and widely accepted but I don't hear anyone questioning the source of the information. Is it the Cubans themselves or is that just propaganda from those who wish to see the Cuban experiment fail.

Or is it anecdotal evidence from people who have been there and who have noted the poverty and the literacy and the good health of the people.


RE: Trudeau

I found the statement to be cloying but I have tried to explain that there was a relationship between the Trudeau's and the Castro's.

Fidel came to Justin's father's funeral. He hugged Justin after the eulogy.

So I can forgive Justin for not being a political opportunist as so many of his political foes here and the right wing fruit cakes in the US who are still battling communism.

Even you made some statement about a communist regime, 90 miles off the coast of Florida, Morris.

Is that situation inherently dangerous for the US? Was that grounds to extend an embargo for 50 years?

George


George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5274

Re: Fidel has died
Posted on: 12/1/2016 8:54:37 PM
The following is an article printed in the Oxford Journals: International Journal of Epidemiology

It is entitled, "Health in Cuba".

I think that it is an intelligent review of the health care system in Cuba and even addresses the issue of statistical evidence that some have questioned on this thread.

The International Journal of Epidemiology is a legitimate source of information, shared information, useful to the health care community.

The article is lengthy and includes an extensive list of references employed.

It deals with problems that the Cubans have with their system and to which they have reported.

But there are some interesting factoids. The Cubans produce their own high BP meds and they have one of the most aggressive plans to combat high BP. Why? It is a preventative measure to lower the incidence of cardiovascular disease.

There is a lot more to the Cuban health care system than infant mortality.

Worth a read I think. Even communists can come up with good ideas once in a while.

[Read More]

Is the Cuban system transportable. The article says that that requires more study but that the successes of the Cuban system are sufficient reasons to initiate that sort of study.


Cheers,

George

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