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Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 2770

Mein Kampf a best seller!?
Posted on: 1/3/2017 10:53:32 AM
In Germany Mein Kampf is on the rise as a best seller??

[Read More]

Who gets the royalties??
MD
---------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

mick
Belfast, Ireland
top 50
E-4 Specialist


Posts: 79

Re: Mein Kampf a best seller!?
Posted on: 1/3/2017 11:48:28 AM
Hi Dave,yeah was reading about this on the BBC News website.
I remember seeing it on sale here but never thought it would ever be on sale in Germany.
---------------
Sir,I'll have you know I cannot be bought and I cannot be threatened,but you put the two together and I'm your man.

BWilson

top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 3307

Re: Mein Kampf a best seller!?
Posted on: 1/3/2017 11:56:19 AM

Quote:
In Germany Mein Kampf is on the rise as a best seller??

[Read More]

Who gets the royalties??
MD
--Michigan Dave



Quote:
A far-right publisher announced last year that it planned to produce an edition “without annoying commentary,” prompting an investigation of suspected incitement.
- LOL. Less amusing, though, is that such editions are no doubt already scanned and being passed around as .pdf files or in similar formats. Official control of this kind of thing is only so effective.

Cheers

BW
---------------
With occasional, fatigued glances at life's rear-view mirror from the other side of time.

Society's righteous paranoia lows profoundly. -- random wisdom of a computer

brian grafton
Victoria, BC, Canada
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Moderator


Posts: 1309

Re: Mein Kampf a best seller!?
Posted on: 1/4/2017 6:51:06 PM
IMHO, the interest in Mein Kampf is worth some serious thought.

I have a copy of Mein Kampf. It was published by Reynal & Hitchcock (New York) in 1939, and is deliberately described as complete, unabridged, and fully annotated. But there is also a copy (in paperback) that has recently been on the shelves of both new and used bookstores in my town. Whether it is "complete, unabridged, and fully annotated" as well I do not know, but I hope it is at least complete and unabridged. I'll come back to that comment.

My 1939 copy is, of course, presented as anti-Nazi propaganda. Sponsored by a host of names, many still recognized (Pearl Buck; Edna St. Vincent Millay; Theodore Dreiser; Albert Einstein; James Landis; Thomas Mann; Eugene O'Neill; Theodore Roosevelt, Jr.; Walter White spring to mind) and having editorial sponsorship from 10 recognized figures (including John Gunther, William L. Langer and George N. Shuster), my copy includes a book review by Dorothy Thompson for the "New York Herald Tribune".

Though her words are wonderful to read, it is not a kind review. The opening para reads as follows:
" Americans can now read the text of the book that has shaken Western civilization. The reader will find the English writing rhetorical, turbid, and digressive, and the text disorganized. Do not, however, criticize the translators. Hitler's first battle was with the German language, and this fight at least he has never won. Let it be said that if the world is overthrown by this document and the man behind it, it is overthrown without benefit of grammar or literary style."

I kinda wish I had written that. It's a good summary of what to expect when one dips into Mein Kampf, at least in any English edition I have seen. I wish my language skills were sufficient to read copy in German.

IIUC, the early German copies of Hitler's work were truncated, abridged, or otherwise edited. I'm tempted to use that English term "bowdlerization" as well. IIUC, this control and editorializing continued up to the invasion of Poland at the earliest. This is why terms like "complete, unabridged, and fully annotated" are important when talking about Mein Kampf. It is also why to some extent there is an argument to publish a volume that is not annotated, but is nevertheless complete and unabridged. Mein Kampf is not a volume for excerpts, or a volume to be read in edited form. It is a certain form of poison which in small doses may seem to offer relief, but at full strength is a killer.

My 1939 volume is annotated, but the volume was published pre WW2 and was offered as a warning against both Hitler and his increasingly belligerent nation. Hitlerism is seen very differently now, as is Nazism. At the time, Nazism was a particularly violent and racist version of broader nationalistic tendencies (found earlier in Italy as Fascism and later in Spain as Falangism, but also appearing to various degrees in other nations. Britain, Poland and Argentina come to mind, but there were hosts of others too, like Austria and elements in France, or many of the Balkan nations). In none of those European nations did extreme right wing parties add a single positive to national growth or to the commonweal of naitons. But in the 1930s, there was at least the possibility that nationalism was the way of the future; that democratic values had lost their virility.

But should we need an annotated Mein Kampf now? I'd like to think not. Bill is right, of course, that certain selections from Mein Kampf are undoubtedly available in Germany, illegality notwithstanding. What we need is some kind of authoritative Mein Kampf, meaning one which captures the text completely and accurately. I don't believe annotation should be necessary in order to clarify the rather turgid evocation of history that Herr Hitler pewled on about.

I also sense that Germany no longer needs to have anti-Nazi laws in place. I'm fully convinced that most Germans will recognize swill when they step in it, and will determine not to step in it again. Germans aren't stupid, after all. Perhaps the current interest being shown in Hitler's opus reflects nothing more than German curiosity, combined with what seems to me to be a thoroughly natural desire to understand exactly what all the nonsense since 1948 has been about.

Let Mein Kampf stand or fall on its own merits. Yes, there will continue to be those who support, deify and otherwise honour Nazi values and the coterie of demi-gods associated with those values (Goebbels; Goering; Himmler; Hitler are the Big Four, of course, but there are others like Heydrich and even lowly Eichmann who are idolized). But at least if those lost souls turn to "the Book" for support, others might be in a position to point out how fragile any small gem from Mein Kampf may be.

Oh my! Such a rant! I think I just had to get that off my chest!

Cheers
Brian G

PS: MD, I think your question of royalties was meant in jest, and have taken it as such. But I believe that any royalties will go to a combination of groups, including the publishers, the state of Bavaria, and perhaps some support groups. I seem to have read something about that many months ago, when talk of this new edition of Mein Kampf was first being promoted.

B



---------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly.

"The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.

scoucer
Berlin, Germany
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 1923

Re: Mein Kampf a best seller!?
Posted on: 1/5/2017 7:53:42 PM

Quote:
I also sense that Germany no longer needs to have anti-Nazi laws in place. I'm fully convinced that most Germans will recognize swill when they step in it, and will determine not to step in it again. Germans aren't stupid, after all. Perhaps the current interest being shown in Hitler's opus reflects nothing more than German curiosity, combined with what seems to me to be a thoroughly natural desire to understand exactly what all the nonsense since 1948 has been about. Cheers Brian G--brian grafton


Sorry Brian. Unfortunately, I have to disagree. There are just as many stupid Germans as in any other nation. And just as many losers willing to seek easy scapegoats to deny their inadequacies and personal failures.

The problem with a translation is that the translator gives the translation some kind of order or understanding. In german it is an incoherent , unreadable rant. One comedian in Germany has made the proposal that Neonazis should be made to sit 5 days a week for 3 months from morning to evening and listen to it being read. I suspect that after 1 week even the most hardened would prefer waterboarding.

Trevor
---------------
`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie

Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.

brian grafton
Victoria, BC, Canada
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Moderator


Posts: 1309

Re: Mein Kampf a best seller!?
Posted on: 1/6/2017 7:45:34 PM

Quote:
Sorry Brian. Unfortunately, I have to disagree. There are just as many stupid Germans as in any other nation.

I remain curious about "why?". I get that Germany's physical location in Europe might continue to create unique tensions, though I would have thought that battle had moved somewhat to the east and south of even a united Germany. And I recognize that Mein Kampf deals rather clumsily with germanic mythology, linguistic babble and cultural exaggeration. That means, I suppose, that Germans may have more difficulty separating Hitler's vision from reality than others. At the same time, Spain is dealing (painfully, to some extent) with Franco's legacy and the entire legacy of Falangism, and South Africa has attempted to come to grips with its past through "Truth and Reconciliation". Are you really saying that modern Germans can't deal with issues as effectively?

I have a good friend who is German by birth but Canadian by choice. He was born in Germany in 1950, and lived there until about 1988, when he and his family moved to Canada. He knew little about WW2, less about Nazism, and only scraps of the horrors of Hitler's regime. He was defenceless when we attempted to talk about WW2 (which affected his family), and felt blind-sided by many of my comments. He may be unusual, of course, in how little he knows. Or he may be a con, not wanting to attempt to defend Reich policies and actions. But he's been a friend for close to 20 years, and I don't think those things of him. I think he is in a situation common to many Germans. He's been told Germany did something so bad that they are not allowed to talk about it. Not allowed to recognize its symbols. Not allowed to attempt understanding rather than simply reject undiscussed values. IMHO, that's no way to raise a child. Surely to God it is possible for a nation to reject its past without keeping its people in the dark about what that past is.


Quote:
And [there are] just as many losers willing to seek easy scapegoats to deny their inadequacies and personal failures.
.
I would assume you are right here. But are there more losers in Germany than elsewhere? Are German losers more dangerous than other losers? ? Are Germans more likely than others to be unable to deal with their nation's past? Surely, it isn't using Nazism as a "scapegoat" that has created the German intellectual, cultural and political blanket over the years between 1933 and 1945, or banned images of a movement which brought Germany to a perverted place of power in Europe.


Quote:
The problem with a translation is that the translator gives the translation some kind of order or understanding. In german it is an incoherent , unreadable rant. One comedian in Germany has made the proposal that Neonazis should be made to sit 5 days a week for 3 months from morning to evening and listen to it being read. I suspect that after 1 week even the most hardened would prefer waterboarding.

I have no argument with comments about difficulties surrounding translations, whether we talk about Mein Kampf or Caesar's Gallic Wars or whatever. I have translations of Hitler, Mao, Trotsky, Marx and Sun Tzu, just as I have translations of many German, French, Japanese, Chinese and other nations' works or prose and poetry. I know I normally lose something in translation, although "Gott ist Todt" is as explicit as "God is dead", if more apocalyptic-sounding in German than in English.

Bad translation is simply not an acceptable reason for suppressing a work like Mein Kampf. Hell, one could then use the same arguments for the works of Hesse or Heine. Mein Kamf is badly written in what was supposed to be Hitler's native tongue: German. So there is always a chance that a translator might attempt t bring logic, direction and order to bad prose. And most translators are sufficiently linked to their work that they get in the way of the author. Think about Compositors C and D re Shakespeare.

That's why I was talking at (perhaps) too much length about complete copy without abridgement and/or annotation. Mein Kampf in English will be a different animal than Mein Kampf in German, just as a translation of a Bassho from Japanese to English will be different. I think Dorothy Thompson suggested how chaotic Mein Kampf is in German, and how an English edition's chaos should not be blamed on translators. In any language, Mein Kampf is a bad work. Logic, rhetoric, manipulation and or presentation are all flawed. We shouldn't automatically accept that the argument, viewpoints, attitudes and values are also flawed. But we won't know until we have a chance to study the book word by word. I think it is insulting that any person in the West has had access to this rather repulsive and certainly inchoate work, while Germans have been under threat of prosecution for the same activity.

Trevor, I agree that there are concerns about what I see as Hitler's lengthy bag of shit. But that doesn't mean I support suppression of it in the past or annotation in the future. It's a pile of shit! If folks want to accept it after they attempt to read it, there may be issues. But at least let everybody argue from the same text.

Cheers
Brian G
---------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly.

"The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.

James W.
Ballina, Australia
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant


Posts: 674

Re: Mein Kampf a best seller!?
Posted on: 1/9/2017 8:43:47 PM
I have a 1939 "unexpurgated" English translation by James Murphy - of Mein Kampf ( inc'notations), published by Hurst & Blackett.

This '2nd impression' has the author's preface by Adolf Hitler, & a translators introduction.

It is presented as straightforward unrevised piece, noting that Hitler himself had made clear the the ambit political manifesto
worldview therein is subject to the 'realpolitik' of international state craft.

IMO, the negative critical appraisal of Hitler's 'literary style' as an author, reveals more about the critic, than about Hitler..
Especially to dismiss it as a "pile of shit" emotively - yet accepting that it must be reviewed in its real form, for historical context.

What Hitler wrote, prior to usurping power ( & soon after a bold, if fanciful/farcical/doomed 1st attempt at it) then did his best to carry
into action when he was able, showed a remarkable level of open honesty & tenacity of purpose - then, or now rarely seen from a politician..

A marked contrast with the 'rat-cunning' deception/supercilious routines run by Winston Churchill/Tony Blair..

Donald Trump appears to have emulated many of the Nazi regime's electoral ploys to get into power, & like his good buddy
Vlad Putin sees the 'strongman' role to 'rule by edict' ( or by twitter post!) as a similarly proper approach..

Yet, apart from Trump's Germanic-type 'hardman' upbringing - has he provided a 'manifesto' anywhere near as coherent as Hitler did?
Does a vague 'Make America Great Again' slogan compare with a Pan-Germanic led 'New Order Europa' (regardless of Nazi eugenic neo-Darwinism)?
Will Hitler's socialist undertakings to get German workers re-employed be matched by arch-capitalist Trump for his hopeful US voters?





brian grafton
Victoria, BC, Canada
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Moderator


Posts: 1309

Re: Mein Kampf a best seller!?
Posted on: 1/10/2017 8:39:11 PM
James, some good commentary, and at least some fair criticism of the comments I made.

At least one of the differences between my copy and yours is that while both are expurgated, my is annotated. In terms of the amount of text, that means that in theory (I must trust a series of anti-Nazi editors for this point) I read both the unexpurgated version and the self-expurgated version offered to the germanic people during the Nazi years in the wilderness. Whether that expurgation was at Hitler's instigation, or at the strong suggestion of members of the NSDAP who were in the wilderness with Hitler in the 9+ years between Munich and power, I don't know. I think this shows something other than "a remarkable level of open honesty & tenacity of purpose".

I must also admit that – leaving Mr Blair out of the mix – I would have to put a description of WSC actions as "'rat-cunning' deception" to be just a tad emotive as well. I'm not a big WSC fan, to be honest. But I'm not going to suggest that his means of becoming PM, or the values he was so blindly ready to protect, are shadier than those outlined in [/]Mein Kampf or brought to bear once the Nazis were in power.

I might be wrong about the degree of manipulation and trickery concerning what various folks could read at what time. But if I have understood the history of the publication of Mein Kampf correctly, then this becomes something less than a treatise showing "open honesty" and/or "tenacity of purpose".

You're correct. I did call it a bag of shit. I said, "Trevor, I agree that there are concerns about what I see as Hitler's lengthy bag of shit. But that doesn't mean I support suppression of it in the past or annotation in the future. It's a pile of shit! If folks want to accept it after they attempt to read it, there may be issues. But at least let everybody argue from the same text."

I don't see any suggestion about "historical context" in that comment. I see an assessment expressed rather bluntly. When I read Mein Kampf, I found the writing bad, the logic weak (and sometimes almost contradictory) and the solutions repulsive. That is my assessment of what I read; that is my assessment of a document on which the fate of millions hung.

If I can trust Dorothy Thompson (even knowing she is writing a propaganda piece herself) of the NY "Trib", this is not the fault of translators. The point is that I have to rely on a translation, because my German is simply not up to translating much.

The issue for this thread, however, at least in my mind, is whether such an ill-written, ill-thought-out argument or such an ill-considered, disturbing solution would be better forgotten, along with all its history and drapery and pageantry, or whether it may benefit a nation both maligned and self-maligning, and its increasingly multicultural society, to look the gibbering face of evil in the face. Then I think the bogey-man would disappear. Or at least would be known to everybody rather than just neos and rightists who continue to believe the man never said a word amiss.

I'll be honest. Right now, I don't want to get into any comparisons of Mr Trump with a person such as Herr Hitler. There are probably better seasons to have a comparative discussion before Mr Trump assumes the position of President than to put such a discussion off for even a couple of months. But I sense that comparing the two in a thread discussing Mein Kampf in itself be inflammatory.

Cheers, James
Brian G

---------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly.

"The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.

morris crumley
Lawrenceville, GA, USA
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 1189

Re: Mein Kampf a best seller!?
Posted on: 1/10/2017 8:52:45 PM
Hitler...was fcking Hitler!

Alright?

Enough already. It is lunacy to compare a Trump...or Obama, for those on the other side, for that matter, to Adolf Fcking Hitler. It diminishes what should never be diminished... and is shameful.

That is a pile of shit.

Respects, Morris
---------------
"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."

Jim Cameron
North Bellmore, NY, USA
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant


Posts: 669

Re: Mein Kampf a best seller!?
Posted on: 1/10/2017 8:54:18 PM
I remember taking a one credit course on Hitler back in college, about 1970 or so. Mein Kampf was assigned reading. Not the whole thing, which I recall as tantamount to unreadable, but selections from it.

I don't recall much about the edition (although for all I know it may still be down in the basement somewhere) except that it was new and available through the college bookstore, and that it may have been annotated at least to some extent.
---------------
Jim Cameron

Every time I go to Gettysburg, I learn two things. Something new, and, how much I still don't know.

morris crumley
Lawrenceville, GA, USA
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 1189

Re: Mein Kampf a best seller!?
Posted on: 1/10/2017 9:40:43 PM
I bought Mein Kampf at the campus bookstore at West Georgia College back..... ....a few years ago. A history professor urged us to read it. I was like the guy in "The Owl And the Pussycat" who goes up to the window at the adult theater and whipsers "I want to see Cycle Sluts" and the guy behind the booth says "what mister?"

"I said I want to see Cycle Sluts." "What?"

"I want to see Cycle Sluts!". He shouts as people nearby on the streets look at him with disdain. "yes mister, yes."

Well that was me, trying to buy a copy of Hitler`s book. And yes, throw in the rain coat.

Respects, Morris
---------------
"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."

James W.
Ballina, Australia
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant


Posts: 674

Re: Mein Kampf a best seller!?
Posted on: 1/11/2017 8:10:58 PM
Part of the problem is the apparent inability to separate emotive 'feelings' from the objective historical appraisal.

A. Hitler as 'bogeyman' is culturally important, & the clear warning given in his best selling book was derided, prior to events,
& now our cognitive dissonance regarding the actual historical outcome requires that it must be derogated as a "pile of shit",
together with the inevitable dismissal on the grounds of poor literary construction/difficult readability.. thus missing the
actual themes.. & the bizarrely destructive responses meted out to them thus are like-wise 'off the table'..


As for W.S. Churchill, he was a self-described 'rat' & his 'cunning' is clearly exposed by his own words too,
such as when claimed ( I paraphrase here) ' History will be kind to me, for I shall being writing it'..

F.D. Roosevelt makes an interesting comparative figure with Hitler too, both having curious parallels in values, programs,
& careers in the role of 'boss'..



From the cultural setting in which I view these things, the harsh, oddly puritanical/infantile American 'gut-response',
(thankfully sometimes crucially over-ruled by the enlightened US Constitutional/Bill-of-Rights freedom articles) contrasts
with the modern European progressive humanistic ideals, which are themselves contradicted/rendered hypocritical by ironic legal
repression/sanctions against open, honest discussion/dissemination/appraisal of the actual Nazi values systems.

I sometimes wonder if the 'Hitler' Nazi-fetish status will ever be relaxed to say, the level of French Revolution/Napoleon Bonaparte..


scoucer
Berlin, Germany
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 1923

Re: Mein Kampf a best seller!?
Posted on: 1/11/2017 9:33:44 PM
Brian and James,

You both seem to confuse a banning of the book and the use of Nazi symbols " in public" as somehow a ban on the discussion of Nazism. Quite the opposite. I know of no other country that has involved itself in such a project of "Vergangenheitsbewaltigung " - ( analysis and overcoming of the past) as Germany. The period is compulsory in schools. There are memorials , museums, all over Germany. The KZS are still there. So they will not be forgotten. I've visited some of them. My parents in law lived through the war as children. I'm well aware of what kind of psychic scars they bare as did my parents. The Canadians and Australians came, fought, and went home. The Europeans still had to live in the rubble. There was little time to consider the psychological damage.EVERYBODY was damaged and it was a case of struggling through.

Here a short discussion point as a start in the subject. wiki because it's in english rather than trying to find discussions of german historians in english. Sociologists, psychologists and almost every other branch have also added their 2 cents to the discussion.

[Read More]

In truth a great part of the problem at the moment is the denial of many countries to analyse not only their part in the Holocaust - France, Belgium, Holland, the Baltic states and eastern Europe but of the UK and the USA to look at their past over a couple of centuries.

Trevor
---------------
`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie

Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.

brian grafton
Victoria, BC, Canada
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Moderator


Posts: 1309

Re: Mein Kampf a best seller!?
Posted on: 1/11/2017 9:54:57 PM

Quote:
Enough already. It is lunacy to compare a Trump...or Obama, for those on the other side, for that matter, to Adolf Fcking Hitler. It diminishes what should never be diminished... and is shameful.

Morris, ease up a bit. Please. Most nations have a leader, whether called president, prime minister, chancellor, premier or whatever. So while I agree theoretically that the offices of such leaders (presidency, premiership, etc.) are defined in rather exalted terms, those same offices are filled by mortals. That means, sadly, that the US Presidency, just like any other office, can indeed be diminished. Typically, the theoretical qualities of the office are defined in reality by the moral, social, political and ethical values of the human who fills the office.

Not just in the US. In the UK, in Italy, in Israel, in Belgium. Each person taking whatever oath of office is required may hope to live up to the ideals of the office. Each one will fail in some way, either in small ways or massively.

In Canada, we recently went through a change of government, which meant a change of party and a change of Prime Minister. I won't bore you with discussions of issues leading up to the change in power. But let me say that I'm not sure our new Prime Minister has yet demonstrated that he is particularly prime ministerial. So far, he has done nothing to bring the office of Prime Minister into disrepute. He has also done nothing much to prove his fitness to hold the office.

I'm not at all ready to enter a discussion comparing Mr Trump with Mr Hitler, for a number of reasons. But I can see why James W has no such concerns, and I can't see why many of his points might be intellectually offensive. We're talking about techniques of presentation, and about pre-election promises. We're talking about vague presentations and hidden agendas, and about pre-election lies. We're talking about how fully a vision is presented, and how honestly it is presented.

I don't think this has been or might turn in any way into a comparative discussion of the characters of Mr Trump and Mr Hitler. But it may offer a good discussion of the political aspects of the approaches Mr Trump and Herr Hitler took in achieving their goals, and an equally decent discussion of the impact of the two men's personalities on the high offices they held.

As a foreigner, I honour the concept of the US Presidency. I don't exalt it, as some US citizens do, but why should I?

As a human, I'm unhappy with the choice US citizens have made for their new president. Ho hum. US folks have voted for a man who campaigned on an antiestablishment plank. In effect, you agreed to have someone drain the swamp. The issue for many folks beyond the US is – fairly, I think – whether Mr Trump will rise to honour the Presidency by his presence, or will by his actions either redefine or undermine the office itself. Has anyone considered whether he sees the US Presidency as the major part of the swamp?

Sorry, Morris, this started out as a simple response. Turned into more. But I won't let it keep me from a few more comments about Mein Kampf.

Cheers
Brian G

---------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly.

"The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.

morris crumley
Lawrenceville, GA, USA
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 1189

Re: Mein Kampf a best seller!?
Posted on: 1/12/2017 10:14:35 AM
Brian, my admonition is slightly different than you suspect. When I said, [such comparisons] "diminish what should not be diminished...and is shameful" I am not saying that absolute, unquestioned, respect is due American elected officials.....quite the contrary, what should not be diminished is the evil of Adolph Hitler. When we compare politicos we don`t like or respect to Hitler..we diminish what Hitler did.

That is what I feel gets diminished. You know how I feel about our current leader...but I have never compared him to Hitler..because such comparison is silly and trite...and is an insult to all those who perished, whither it be upon the fields of fire....or in the "showers."

If one compares Pol Pot to Hitler..I won`t complain. If one compares Stalin, who authored the Holodomor ..or Mao who maybe killed more..I won`t complain. But let`s show some concept of context before throwing that Hitler adjective around.

Though the admonition was not addressed to you, I do appreciate the opportunity to clarify what I was saying.

Respects, Morris
---------------
"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."

scoucer
Berlin, Germany
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 1923

Re: Mein Kampf a best seller!?
Posted on: 1/12/2017 2:00:44 PM

Quote:
.....quite the contrary, what should not be diminished is the evil of Adolph Hitler. When we compare politicos we don`t like or respect to Hitler..we diminish what Hitler did.

That is what I feel gets diminished. You know how I feel about our current leader...but I have never compared him to Hitler..because such comparison is silly and trite...and is an insult to all those who perished, whither it be upon the fields of fire....or in the "showers."


Respects, Morris--morris crumley


Completely agree Morris. Mr Trump maybe, IMO, a narcissist but I don't think he has any plans to be locking up opponents or establishing a one party state.

Trevor
---------------
`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie

Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.

brian grafton
Victoria, BC, Canada
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Moderator


Posts: 1309

Re: Mein Kampf a best seller!?
Posted on: 1/12/2017 8:22:38 PM
Thanks for the clarification, Morris. I clearly misunderstood you, and I apologize.

I note you say:
Quote:
I am not saying that absolute, unquestioned, respect is due American elected officials.
That comment chimes for me. Too many members of government – not just in the US, but elsewhere (as, e.g., Canada) – forget they have been elected to serve, whether they have been elected or been appointed. The ongoing fiasco of Canada's Senate might stand as an exemplum.

To be honest, I thought both James W and I had offered some context for our comments.
Quote:
We're talking about techniques of presentation, and about pre-election promises. We're talking about vague presentations and hidden agendas, and about pre-election lies. We're talking about how fully a vision is presented, and how honestly it is presented.

I don't think this has been or might turn in any way into a comparative discussion of the characters of Mr Trump and Mr Hitler. But it may offer a good discussion of the political aspects of the approaches Mr Trump and Herr Hitler took in achieving their goals, and an equally decent discussion of the impact of the two men's personalities on the high offices they held.

That may be too close a link for some, but I could see it spreading to include other politicians within an historical framework, if members of MHO got interested. What sells anything political, after all? Who has done a good job of selling? FDR, e.g., used "fireside chats" and homely analogies (tell the one about the hose, Grandpa!). Churchill used rather turgid oratory and a couple of symbols (a cigar and a v-sign). Hitler used new technology (aircraft) and massive displays of support (all those torch-lit meetings). Obama used the internet and social media; Mr Trump appears to be using candour in hindsight of a sort, along with extensive Twitter.

Cheers
Brian G

---------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly.

"The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.

brian grafton
Victoria, BC, Canada
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Moderator


Posts: 1309

Re: Mein Kampf a best seller!?
Posted on: 1/12/2017 8:40:27 PM
Trevor, I agree with you for the most part. My concern touches the basis for his value system. I think most normal people would like to know where he wants to take the US, and whether he can deal with issues his commitment to and commitment to business models. Keep in mind, there was an ugly exchange concerning press questions during Mr Trump's first press conference (at Trump Towers in NYC). In a world of lies, post-truth and the like, it is hard to figure out what happened. But I'm prepared to argue that if – and I stress if – a member of the press was threatened with banishment from press conferences today, then we might have taken the first step to locking up opponents or establishing a one-party state.

As a bit of an aside, did "post-truth" become a word (and, by definition, a value) because of media coverage of the 2016 US election, or because of Mr Trump's statements which had no basis in fact but had strong legs in the political debate, or was there a broader, non-political basis for the term?

Cheers
Brian G
---------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly.

"The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.

James W.
Ballina, Australia
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant


Posts: 674

Re: Mein Kampf a best seller!?
Posted on: 1/12/2017 10:05:07 PM
Given the themes laid out in 'Mein Kampf', & the overlay of embittering adult life experience on Hitler's early upbringing/basic personality type - this made his responses as Nazi war-leader entirely predictable, & thus 'playable' as to outcome, but this is - seldom acknowledged.

Realistically, it is analogous to provoking a surly cat to rage, them complaining about being bitten & scratched, then using this as a
'reason' to destroy it. Or winding up a clockwork toy robot, & feigning surprise that it then runs through its program of actions..

The demonisation factor must emotively negate any humanity aspects - even if the man himself was basically personally modest with
values seen as perhaps 'odd' then ( less so now), such as his animal rights/vegetarian diet/non-smoking or alcohol drinking habits.

Things such as the link between smoking & cancer, followed by smoking bans in public buildings & anti-smoking legislation established
by the Nazi regime, are like-wise seldom acknowledged, since no credit for anything positive can be allowed to be seen as 'balance'..

Unlike many dictators, who wore grandiose uniforms festooned with medals either self-awarded, or via spurious merits from others,
Hitler would only ever wear his basic meritorious war service medals. He did however,( & like Trump) - not want to be seen in public
wearing corrective reading specs, & also had a 'comb-over' hair issue going..

Funnily enough, a radio program I heard earlier today had a similar cognitive dissonance issue, a female writer discussing Roald Dahl,
as a meritorious influence but expressed feeling 'conflicted' by her 'moral judgement' regarding his personal life & opinions, she was 'troubled' by his 'misogyny' - shown by his propensity to have extra-marital 'affairs', & by his 'anti-Semitic' views ( Dahl had wondered if Jews ever did much self-reflection on their part in why Hitler was so antagonistic toward them), & if this negated his literary merits..

Post-modernist ' deconstruction' with its emotive opinion over-valuation, seem to have a lot to answer for..









brian grafton
Victoria, BC, Canada
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Moderator


Posts: 1309

Re: Mein Kampf a best seller!?
Posted on: 1/13/2017 9:59:14 PM
Trevor, spent some time writing a long comment, only to have it vaporize through personal stupidity.

You offered a good post which you posted while was generating one of my opuses. I'm gonna try again, but with diminished zeal.


Quote:
You both seem to confuse a banning of the book and the use of Nazi symbols " in public" as somehow a ban on the discussion of Nazism. Quite the opposite. I know of no other country that has involved itself in such a project of "Vergangenheitsbewaltigung " - ( analysis and overcoming of the past) as Germany. The period is compulsory in schools

Has it always been a compulsory topic in German schools, or has that changed from decade to decade. My good friend Karl, born in Germany in 1950, claims that in his memory he received no schooling about WW2 except in the most general and vaguest of terms. He has now reached retirement age, of course, but he must be one of those you are speaking of.

I thank you for stating so clearly the difference between the banning of icons (swastikas, Nazi flags and bunting, and the like) and what must have been to some extent in every home. That is a point I agree with entirely, though I often try to argue as if that isn't the case! Most German homes (along with some homes in Belgium, Netherlands, Spain, Italy, Norway and perhaps the UK) will have Nazi memorabilia. Hell, even I have a "Gott Mit Uns" belt clasp, though mine is only semi-military.


Quote:
There are memorials , museums, all over Germany. The KZS are still there. So they will not be forgotten. I've visited some of them. My parents in law lived through the war as children. I'm well aware of what kind of psychic scars they bare as did my parents.

Of course there are. Why shouldn't there be? Germany lost the war, but that doesn't mean real indications/icons of war disappeared. I've spent less time in Germany than I would wish since my first trip in 1960. But it's no surprise that the territory of Germany has thousands of marks indicating her battles.


Quote:
The Canadians and Australians came, fought, and went home. The Europeans still had to live in the rubble. There was little time to consider the psychological damage.EVERYBODY was damaged and it was a case of struggling through.

I know it's because you are answering James and me that you don't include other nations. I assume other nationals will understand your directed commentary. I can't answer for most of the Commonwealth Forces who fought in Europe or in Asia. I only had one relative fight in WW2. He was my father's best friend/closest sibling. There was some rebonding after the war, but my uncle had been destroyed by his war experience (he's been (I think we called them) a medical orderly, a combatant medical aide Often, he was not a model my father wanted near his growing boys. Not a hint of the issues that most Europeans faced in the years after the wear, of course. But at least some of Canada's youth didn't come home without scars. I recognize that the aftermath was horrid, but not as bad as the battles themselves.

[lquote]Here a short discussion point as a start in the subject. wiki because it's in english rather than trying to find discussions of german historians in english. Sociologists, psychologists and almost every other branch have also added their 2 cents to the discussion.

[Read More]
Haven't had a chance to look at this yet.


Quote:
In truth a great part of the problem at the moment is the denial of many countries to analyse not only their part in the Holocaust - France, Belgium, Holland, the Baltic states and eastern Europe but of the UK and the USA to look at their past over a couple of centuries.

This may or may not be part of the discussion on this thread. Much as I understand your point, I tend to think where your comment might take us in into some nasty discussion.

Quite recently, I've had a discussion with a friend. Typically, it arose over a Mr Trump issue. Given Mr Trump's slogan, a friend wanted to discuss whether "America" had ever been great. Without the nausea associated with "the greatest generation" stuff, I argued for a short period between 1943 and 1945. He said "No". His point? Civil rights.

I'll give you that many nations are much more capable of pointing out weaknesses in other than in recognizing weaknesses in themselves. Canada has an atrocious, embarrassing, vicious and paternalistic attitude to its First Nations People. Canada is, in 2017 – its 150th year – still treating its First Nations people horridly. The first 100 years were spent trying to destroy aboriginal culture, faith, language and history. The last 50 years have been spent making them economically dependent. I am embarrassed by Canada's treatment of its aboriginal peoples. I think we've treated them abysmally, and I sense we as a people have no means by which to determine how appalling our behaviour has been and in many parts of the country continues to be. I'm ashamed of my country, at least in this regard.

Canada, like many other western nations, had horrible, ugly, probably anti-Semitic "reasons" for not accepting the Jews Nazi Germany wished to expel. (And yes, most of the Jews who were given a chance for a new life were stripped of their funds when they left Germany, so they were economic refugees as well!). But I'm not entirely comfortable with arguing that Canada's attitude – distasteful as it was – can be linked to the Holocaust. Without accepting, IMHO, the kinds of poorly developed and argued arguments that are found in {i]Mein Kampf. I've tried to suggest from the beginning that I have never been able to understand the arguments in that particular "best seller".

Lots more to talk about, of course. Old Adolph's penmanship can still disturb, it seems.

Cheer
Brian G
---------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly.

"The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.

scoucer
Berlin, Germany
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 1923

Re: Mein Kampf a best seller!?
Posted on: 1/14/2017 9:37:53 AM

Quote:

Quote:
In truth a great part of the problem at the moment is the denial of many countries to analyse not only their part in the Holocaust - France, Belgium, Holland, the Baltic states and eastern Europe but of the UK and the USA to look at their past over a couple of centuries.


This may or may not be part of the discussion on this thread. Much as I understand your point, I tend to think where your comment might take us in into some nasty discussion.


Yes Brian. I should have left out the USA. Mixing up US problems with European problems, and assuming similar causes is not very helpful. And I do have a tendency to jump up and defend my adopted country and find it hard to control my disgust at the land of my birth. I was not a great admirer of Frau Merkel but looking at the rest of the muppets dancing across the European stage ,I see no alternative.

Trevor
---------------
`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie

Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.

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