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The current time is: 11/24/2017 5:07:18 PM
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George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5566

Himmler save the Jews
Posted on: 11/10/2017 11:13:10 AM
I was just listening to an interview with an author named Max Wallace.

He was talking about his book, "In the Name of Humanity".

He is no fan of Himmler, whom he called more dangerous than Hitler.

But his book tells the story of some back door negotiations, secret negotiations, with Himmler in which Himmler was convinced by an organization (sorry I missed the group but Orthodox Jews were involved), that the only way for Germany to attain a separate peace with the western allies was to stop the extermination of the Jews.

He contends that Himmler, through this subterfuge was convinced to issue a stop killing order.

He claimed that Himmler actually met with a representative of the World Jewish Congress who convince him to release the women at Ravensbruck camp.

So the author draws a distinction between the final solution and the holocaust. He claims that Himmler, conspiring behind Hitler's back, ordered the extermination procedures to stop in Nov. of 1944. On Nov. 26, 1944 the crematoria at Auschwitz exploded. Inmates thought that it was sabotage but author Wallace claims that Himmler ordered the destruction.

However, the holocaust continued as Jews and others were killed off by disease and starvation.

Now I do not know whether this is an old story that I missed or how much truth there is to it.

I had assumed that extermination procedures continued to near the end of the war.

Max Wallace said that without this operation to deceive Himmler, the Nazis would have succeeded in eliminating all of the Jews.

He claims that about 300,000 were saved because Himmler had been duped into believing that a separate peace could be negotiated if he just stopped killing Jews.


[Read More]


Cheers,

George

Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 2887

Re: Himmler save the Jews
Posted on: 11/10/2017 3:34:46 PM
George,

It's news to me, I thought Himmler, & saving the Jews, were 2 mutually exclusive historical topics!?

If true, unreal,
MD
---------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5566

Re: Himmler save the Jews
Posted on: 11/10/2017 4:55:46 PM
Well Dave, I tossed in that title just to catch attention.

Himmler was an SOB who hated Jews.

He was just trying to save his own arse and maybe that of his country, hoping that by securing a separate peace that the allies plus Germany would turn on the USSR.

At lease, that is what author Wallace contended.

If the scenario described in the man's book is accurate, precious few were saved.

As mentioned the author is convinced that without Himmler's attempt to curry favour that the Nazis would probably have succeeded in eliminating the Jews in Europe.

Cheers,

George

John R. Price
Wilkes-Barre, PA, USA
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant
Posts: 537

Re: Himmler save the Jews
Posted on: 11/10/2017 8:17:23 PM
Dave,

Himmler was trying to sell Jews for trucks at one point and he was in contact with the World Jewish Congress at the end of the war. A couple of different scenerios were discussed but nothing came of it with the exception of one train load I believe of Hungarian Jews. The problem is that just like all of the second team Nazi leadership they were under the delusion that the Allies would recognize them as legitimate leaders of Germany after Hitler died. Himmler thought that he could ransom Jews to make himself look better and be recognized as the next leader of Germany. It saved a handful of Jews but 300,000 I doubt very much.
---------------
A battle long forgotten by our country in a war never understood by our country.
"to satisfy our endless needs and justify our bloody deeds, in the name of destiny and in the name of God"


George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5566

Re: Himmler save the Jews
Posted on: 11/11/2017 6:52:50 AM
John, I made the post, not Dave, or did you intend to PM him for a private discussion?

Why do you doubt that 300,000 lives were spared? Perhaps you would explain your doubts because I still do not know whether the author, who is a respected person who studies the holocaust, is on firm ground.

I think that the author contends that if the direct killing had stopped by Nov. of 1944, that the ensuing deaths, in the hundreds of thousands, were through disease and starvation.

There was no conscious act to save people.

He feels that had Himmler not been duped that the Nazi would have successfully wiped out the remainder.

In fact, didn't Hitler order all Jews to be killed near the end? Himmler defied Hitler and countermanded the order.


Despite the devastation to the Jewish population in Europe, the Nazis were unsuccessful in eliminating them all.

The author is suggesting that a paltry 300,000 more were spared who should have died in the camps. Not having read the book, I do not know how author Wallace arrived at the figure.

He does mention that a member of the World Jewish Congress met with Himmler and convinced him to release the women in Ravensbruck camp. Did that happen?

1700 Hungarian Jews were released. 1200 Jews in Theresienstadt were released.

Himmler spared the ghetto in Budapest.

All of this to save his skin and to perhaps continue a fight against his other sworn enemy, the Soviets.

I found this information on aish.com which is a web site started by Orthodox Jews I believe. This story seems to confirm Max Wallace's theory.

[Read More]

Discussions of the number of Jews remaining or saved is fodder for the Holocaust deniers unfortunately. They will debate the figures offered regarding the Jewish population of Europe before the war and point to the number who survived as proof that the Holocaust did not happen.

Finally, the author of the book believes that the details of the story behind the deception that caused Himmler to rescind the final solution orders has been kept under wraps because the holocaust deniers will use it as evidence that Himmler actually saved Jews. He cared nothing about the Jews.

Wallace's book highlights the work of three people who created the deception. It could be a good read.


Data from the US Holocaust Museum indicates that the pre-war Jewish population was 9.3 million. In 1950, it was 3.5 million.

[Read More]

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 6042
http:// 82.44.47.99
Re: Himmler save the Jews
Posted on: 11/11/2017 7:16:54 AM

Quote:
Finally, the author of the book believes that the details of the story behind the deception that caused Himmler to rescind the final solution orders has been kept under wraps because the holocaust deniers will use it as evidence that Himmler actually saved Jews. He cared nothing about the Jews.
George

Having read the story elsewhere I concur with George

There was an ‘incredible woman’ behind the deal
A key figure in the history of the Holocaust was behind the secret talks with Himmler, Wallace said.Her name was Recha Sternbuch and she was an Orthodox Jewish woman who helped saved thousands of Jewish lives right before and during the Holocaust.

Wallace said Sternbuch and her husband Isaac, who led a Swiss Jewish rescue committee, enlisted Jean-Marie Musy, former president of Switzerland, to negotiate with Himmler.At the time, Himmler was “desperate to forge a separate alliance with the Allies,” Wallace said.

Regards

Jim
“He thinks that Nazi Germany can band together with the western allies against their common enemy – Stalin – to stamp out Bolshevism. The Bolsheviks were the only people he hated as much as the Jews.”
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

John R. Price
Wilkes-Barre, PA, USA
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant
Posts: 537

Re: Himmler save the Jews
Posted on: 11/11/2017 12:05:33 PM
No Himmler didn't spare the Budapest Ghetto. The Budapest ghetto only existed for 2 months from the end of Nov 44 until the Soviets liberated the city in the middle of Jan 45 and in that time 130,000 of the 200,000 Jews were sent to the Camps. Wallenburg with support from official of the Hungarian interior Ministry and police talked the General ordered to carry out the massacre out of it with threats that he would be hung for war crimes if he went through with it and the Germans were rather busy with the Russians knocking at the door at the end of Dec 44 when it was ordered by Himmler through Eichman. The Hungarian Jews had been basically protected until the coup that toppled the pro German government and prompted German occupation in Spring of 44 and even then the Arrow Cross didn't get behind persecution and the Final Solution 100%.

And sorry I didn't realize that all answers or comments made on a thread had to be to the person who started the thread.

EDIT There are two very good books on the Siege of Budapest in which the above can be found. If you would like I'll find them and pass along their names and authors as they are around someplace. I want to say the ghetto was established Nov 22 and the Soviets liberated either the 16th or 17th Jan but I'd have to check. You want to talk about a massacre lets talk the German breakout attempt.
---------------
A battle long forgotten by our country in a war never understood by our country.
"to satisfy our endless needs and justify our bloody deeds, in the name of destiny and in the name of God"


George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5566

Re: Himmler save the Jews
Posted on: 11/11/2017 2:21:32 PM

Quote:
No Himmler didn't spare the Budapest Ghetto.


There were 2 ghettos in Budapest. One, the smaller one was called the "international ghetto". I believe that that is the one in Wallenburg had influence.

There is debate over how a few Jews in the larger ghetto were saved.

Wallenburg is one possibility.

The other is the Himmler ordered the commandant of the city (Pfeffer ????) not to attack the ghetto.

And there is a third possibility and that is that the commandant acted of his own volition after being cautioned that he could be tried and hung for war crimes if he killed the Jews remaining in the ghetto.

The German Military Archive in Freiburg has in its files the "nachlas" of commandant Pfeffer. The nachlas is a collection of the man's files, notes etc.

That information indicates that Pfeffer ordered that the large ghetto be spared.

There is also an indication that he was working with the German generals in the area and that they did not allow the Hungarian Nazis, the Arrow Cross to enter the large ghetto to liquidate the Jews. Instead, they allowed them to support the combat units against the Soviets.

So it is my understanding that there is still confusion and debate over how or why some Hungarian Jews were spared.

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5566

Re: Himmler save the Jews
Posted on: 11/11/2017 2:32:43 PM

Quote:
No Himmler didn't spare the Budapest Ghetto.


Just for the record John, there are better ways to word your disagreement on issues. Sometimes it is better to equivocate a little

There were 2 ghettos in Budapest. One, the smaller one was called the "international ghetto". It is my understanding that this "ghetto" which also included safe houses in the city was a creation of Wallenburg as he issued bogus visas to Jews.

I believe that that is the one in which Wallenburg had influence.

This ghetto was liberated by the Soviets, two days before the central ghetoo.

There is debate over how a few Jews in the central ghetto were saved.

Wallenburg is one possibility though it seems that the international ghetto was where the Jews that he could save were living.

The other is the Himmler ordered the commandant of the city (Pfeffer ????) not to attack the ghetto.

And there is a third possibility and that is that the commandant acted of his own volition after being cautioned that he could be tried and hung for war crimes if he killed the Jews remaining in the ghetto.

The German Military Archive in Freiburg has in its files the "nachlas" of commandant Pfeffer. The nachlas is a collection of the man's files, notes etc.

That information indicates that Pfeffer ordered that the large ghetto be spared.

There is also an indication that he was working with the German generals in the area and that they did not allow the Hungarian Nazis, the Arrow Cross Party to enter the large ghetto to liquidate the Jews. Instead, they allowed them to support the combat units against the Soviets.

So there is still confusion and debate over how or why some Hungarian Jews were spared.

Wallenburg's efforts in the large ghetto may not be as significant as they were in the international ghetto.

John R. Price
Wilkes-Barre, PA, USA
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant
Posts: 537

Re: Himmler save the Jews
Posted on: 11/11/2017 6:49:22 PM
Technically the "International ghetto" was located in different sections of "Pest" in well marked blocs of houses or even individual houses. Budapest is basically divided into two sections "Pest" which is the flat outskirts and the center "Buda" which is the hills. The major Ghetto and the all of the houses that were designated the "International Ghetto" were located in "Pest" and "Pest" fell on Jan 17th 1945. Buda held out for another six plus weeks.

Pheffer-Waldenbruch was the commander of the IX Waffen SS Alpine Corps and was in charge of the defense of the city. The actual commendant was a Army General Schmidhuber and it was he who received the order to massacre ALL the Jews in the city on Dec 26 1944.

The accounts I have is that Wallenberg was notified by members of the Interior Ministry, Police and Arrow Cross Militia that the order was given to Schmidhubber and that he intended that the Police and Arrow Cross Militia be major participents in the massacre and alerted certain commanders to prepare. They balked and a meeting took place in the castle cellar in "Buda" serving as the administrative center of government between Walenburg, officials of the Interior Ministry, Police, Arrow Cross Militia and Schmidhubber in which the threats were made against Schmidhubber and it was he who never gave the order to execute the massacre. Scmidhubber was KIA in the breakout attempt.

And the Arrow Cross Militia was the administrators and perimeter guards for the large ghetto in Pest as all the SS guards and administrators had been formed into action companies and drafted into the IX Waffen SS Alpine Corps as replacements no later than early Dec.

EDIT The City was isolated and loosely surrounded in Oct, there was a air bridge and river connections with Vienna still open till mid and late Dec when Pest fell, and there were only about 37,000 SS and German Army combat troops caught in the encirclement and about the same number of Hungarian combat troops so that's 75,000. They cobbled together another 55,000 troops from supply and administrative troops and the Arrow Cross militia but they were still facing half a million Soviets in the encirclement. The Waffen SS wasn't going to take Arrow Cross Militia as replacements and the reality is those types didn't see much front line service until the actual attack on the city proper was underway in early Dec.
---------------
A battle long forgotten by our country in a war never understood by our country.
"to satisfy our endless needs and justify our bloody deeds, in the name of destiny and in the name of God"


George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5566

Re: Himmler save the Jews
Posted on: 11/11/2017 9:09:16 PM
Interesting background information John.

But there is still conflicting information out there.

We know Wallenburg was there.

I mentioned Pfeffer in an earlier post. I said that he was the commandant in charge of the city.

And I mentioned his interactions with two other German military generals though I did not give their names.

So it appears that we are in some agreement.

But there are some researchers including Max Wallace who feel that Himmler passed the order to leave the centre ghetto alone.

And others who feel that Pfeffer acted independently based upon the information in his files available in Germany.

I mentioned that the Arrow Cross were forbidden to enter the ghetto and I also said that they were employed somehow, in support, by the defending Germans.

So we agree on that.



John R. Price
Wilkes-Barre, PA, USA
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant
Posts: 537

Re: Himmler save the Jews
Posted on: 11/11/2017 10:19:44 PM
No the commander of the defenses and the city commandant are in the Nazi command structure two separate and different commands. In effect in many ways and situations the Nazi commands in a given area were in competition with each other even when the responsibilities overlapped. In fact if the Allgemeine SS had a fully staffed administration and compliment within the city the military commandant, General Schmidhubber, would have only been notified to follow their lead. The order went to Schmidhubber not Pheffer-W and they weren't asking/ordering Pheffer-W for troops under his command to carry out the order but from under Schmidgubber's. In all honesty I think the only reason the papers are in Pheffer-W file is Schmidhubber was KIA during the battle and Pheffer-W was trying to take credit for them being saved.

No I was telling you that the Arrow Cross was the main staff for the security and administration of the main ghetto. You can't do that job if you aren't allowed inside.

Also you keep saying a few Jews saved and my math says that 130,000 sent to the camps from a total of 200,000 leaves 70,000 within the encirclement and 70,000 is a hell of a lot more than a few.
---------------
A battle long forgotten by our country in a war never understood by our country.
"to satisfy our endless needs and justify our bloody deeds, in the name of destiny and in the name of God"


George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5566

Re: Himmler save the Jews
Posted on: 11/12/2017 6:58:03 AM
I am aware that the commandant of the city had different responsibilities than the military commands in the area. I thought that I had made that clear when I spoke of Pfeffer and the military commanders. Why are you beating that point to death?

I am trying to suggest that the accepted theory of why some Jews were spared has been challenged.

I have not read the book that I recommended at the beginning of this thread but perhaps the author, Max Wallace, can prove that Himmler was more directly involved in sparing the lives of some Jews.


Quote:

Also you keep saying a few Jews saved and my math says that 130,000 sent to the camps from a total of 200,000 leaves 70,000 within the encirclement and 70,000 is a hell of a lot more than a few.


And your point is John? Some argue that the Hungarian Jews did not experience murder to the same extent as other eastern countries because their "time" arrived as Himmler was trying to save himself and possibly the country from the Soviets.

EDIT: Difficult to compare numbers between Hungary and other eastern countries. We have not addressed the death marches of Hungarian Jews into Austria, I believe. Thousands died on those marches.


You should not allow your enmity toward me to affect the way that you argue. I chuckle at your prickly nature with some posters but not with others.

In any attempt to prove me wrong you resort to picking out minor points to belabour but you fail to address the central point that I am making.

And that is, that Himmler was directly involved in stopping the liquidation of the central ghetto.

And that Pfeffer in collaboration with the military commanders, prevented the Arrow Cross from entering the central ghetto to begin the liquidation.
Are you agreeing with my point then or just nit picking?

It is not my theory. Nor is it the exclusive theory of Max Wallace.

In all the verbiage, you have said, "No, it's Wallenburg".

BTW, starting your first two paragraphs with "No" is impolite and does not reference the point to which you raise an objection. How am I supposed to know to which sentence, paragraph or point that you object if you won't make reference to it?

John R. Price
Wilkes-Barre, PA, USA
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant
Posts: 537

Re: Himmler save the Jews
Posted on: 11/12/2017 9:51:36 AM
In all the "verbiage" I think its clear that I'm saying it wasn't Himmler or Phiffer-W most responsible and that Phiffer-W was the military commander not the administrative but you keep trying to say I partially agree with you and I don't.
---------------
A battle long forgotten by our country in a war never understood by our country.
"to satisfy our endless needs and justify our bloody deeds, in the name of destiny and in the name of God"


George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5566

Re: Himmler save the Jews
Posted on: 11/12/2017 10:36:53 AM
John, I am suggesting that there may be information that the plight of the Jews in Hungary and in other places may have had more to do with Himmler than has been put forth before. That's it. That's all. To what extent I do not know but that's the theory.

If you don't think that it is plausible, state your view and tell us why.

And since I haven't read Wallace's book, I cannot state firmly why he believes that Himmler may have inadvertently saved the lives of 300,000 Jews.

However, I did listen to a half hour interview with the man and he seems to have some compelling evidence.

You can hear it here:

[Read More]


John R. Price
Wilkes-Barre, PA, USA
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant
Posts: 537

Re: Himmler save the Jews
Posted on: 11/12/2017 3:34:19 PM
When you responded to my initial post you asked why I doubted 300,000 lives had been spared by Himmler's actions at the end of the war. If Himmler hadn't countermanded Hitler's order to kill all the Jews which you stated was "a matter of fact." Then the one thing that I'm directly challenging that Himmler saved the Jews of the Budapest Ghetto. Then you went on to explain about Budapest and I responded to the facts I believe from my readings you had wrong or had misunderstood to which you tried to claim that I was agreeing with what you had previously said.

I'm not on Wallace's side in this as I believe his conclusions are wrong and that at most Himmler delayed the executions of a very few Jews at the end of the war above and beyond the few Hungarian Jews in the one train he ransomed.
---------------
A battle long forgotten by our country in a war never understood by our country.
"to satisfy our endless needs and justify our bloody deeds, in the name of destiny and in the name of God"


George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5566

Re: Himmler save the Jews
Posted on: 11/12/2017 4:28:17 PM
I agree that the people directly in charge of the Jews in Budapest had to be on board with Himmler's diktat.

Wallace has stated himself that the actions of Himmler may have saved only about 300,000. The Nazis were remarkably efficient when they set up their killing operations.

Wallace never claimed that the numbers spared were high. He does claim that had Himmler not issued his order to stop the executions, that the Nazi "success rate" would have been even higher.

When Hitler issues his order to blow up the camps with all the Jews, I believe that Himmler countermanded that order.

Did Hitler not excommunicate Himmler from the Nazi party for this betrayal?

Here's the thing John. Max Wallace is a well known holocaust historian. You may want to believe that his conclusions are wrong but he does claim, in the interview, to have uncovered new information that supports his contention that Himmler was more influential than had previously been thought.

So I think that I should read the book before I make any definitive statements.

John R. Price
Wilkes-Barre, PA, USA
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant
Posts: 537

Re: Himmler save the Jews
Posted on: 11/12/2017 6:03:48 PM
No Himmler was kicked out of the Party and dismissed from all his duties because he tried to pass himself off as "provisional leader of Germany" and made a written proposal of peace that was passed to Ike by Bernadotte.

Plus with respect to Wallace a lot of this research revolves around the "White Buses" who got a little over 15,000 prisoners out of the camps in March and April 45. The thing is that about half were Scandinavian and at least half weren't Jews. Throw in that the executions didn't stop even when the camps were under threat of liberation from approaching Allied troops. Those left alive at Auschwitz because they were deemed to weak to make the march to be used as slave labor only lived because the unit ordered to go and execute them got caught on its way by the Soviet advance. There wasn't this "super secret order" from Himmler to stop the murders on a large scale. Slow down in some cases and specific acts of ransom on a very small scale yes but no way does it even come close to reaching 300,000.

Edit Plus you won't acknowledge that the order to execute the Jews in bot ghetto's in Budapest came from Himmler and it was the local commander that declined to carry it out. The order was given before Himmler was appointed head of Army Group Vistula when he was still the most loyal of the loyal to Hitler. It wasn't until he failed and was sacked by Hitler from Army Group command that he started turning and tried to save his ass
---------------
A battle long forgotten by our country in a war never understood by our country.
"to satisfy our endless needs and justify our bloody deeds, in the name of destiny and in the name of God"


George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5566

Re: Himmler save the Jews
Posted on: 11/12/2017 8:04:14 PM
OK John. Don't read the book.

John R. Price
Wilkes-Barre, PA, USA
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant
Posts: 537

Re: Himmler save the Jews
Posted on: 11/13/2017 11:22:20 AM
Make you a deal I'll read it the day after you finish any one of at least a dozen I've mentioned in discussions on Vietnam with you. Looks like I won't be reading it huh?
---------------
A battle long forgotten by our country in a war never understood by our country.
"to satisfy our endless needs and justify our bloody deeds, in the name of destiny and in the name of God"


George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5566

Re: Himmler save the Jews
Posted on: 11/13/2017 8:59:29 PM

Quote:
Make you a deal I'll read it the day after you finish any one of at least a dozen I've mentioned in discussions on Vietnam with you. Looks like I won't be reading it huh?
--John R. Price


So don't read Wallace's book. You have already stated that you disagreed with him. I don't know how you came to your conclusions but I am tiring of this.

Vietnam? What does that have to do with the discussion.





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