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 Civil War Commanders and Units    
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scoucer
Berlin, Germany
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 1944

Re: A Critical Look at Robert E Lee
Posted on: 8/28/2017 2:26:20 PM
John,

What was the toxic caused by Loring ?

I know he quarreled with Stonewall but who didn´t.

Trevor
---------------
`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie

Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.

John R. Price
Wilkes-Barre, PA, USA
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant
Posts: 537

Re: A Critical Look at Robert E Lee
Posted on: 8/28/2017 9:55:17 PM
Trevor,

Undermining Pemberton's command of the AOM as I believe senior division commander and therefore automatically second in command as there were no formal corps. It comes to a head at Champion Hill where he refuses to obey I believe its 3 direct orders to support Bowen's charge. Then during the retreat he strikes out on his own causing Pemberton to make a stand at the Big Black because he is waiting for him trying to hold open the line of retreat for Loring's Division.
---------------
A battle long forgotten by our country in a war never understood by our country.
"to satisfy our endless needs and justify our bloody deeds, in the name of destiny and in the name of God"


scoucer
Berlin, Germany
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 1944

Re: A Critical Look at Robert E Lee
Posted on: 8/29/2017 7:30:43 AM
Thank you John. I thought there was maybe something between Loring and Bragg.

Trevor
---------------
`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie

Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.

1stvermont
Vermont, VT, USA
top 50
E-4 Specialist


Posts: 81

Re: A Critical Look at Robert E Lee
Posted on: 8/29/2017 9:06:50 PM

Quote:
1stvermont,

You or any other author can't know how Lee would have acted had he been C&C of all Confederate forces. Plus with respect the only way for the Confederacy to win was to break the political will of the Union to continue the war and losing Richmond and basically all of Virginia isn't going to aid in that. As it was it was the strategy of the C&C President Davis to hold all points and territory Lee while advising against that strategy tried to carry it out first as military advisor then as a Department commander and for the last few months as C&C. I would also add that Richmond was one of the very few munitions production centers in the Confederacy and loss of those facilities would have been devastating to the ability to wage war. The interior lines theory for Chickamauga is wrong the direct route by rail had already been cut by the Union.

The officers of the ANVA were assembled not for Lee but for Joe Johnston and with respect most came into the own under Lee. Look at the division commanders at Seven Pines then the Seven Days and then Second Manassas. It is a big turnover and even moreso when the Army goes to the three corps setup before Gettysburg. I would also say the officer corps get plenty of credit but it is made better by Lee just as the officer corps of the AOT is under rated because of Bragg.

What are you talking about saying Jackson was a better strategic planner and thinker? When did Jackson plan strategy? If your talking the Valley Campaign I think you had better read the correspondence between Lee and Jackson leading up to it.

Agreed the newspapers were calling Lee timid for his West Virginia experiences. But "Granny Lee," and the "King of Spades" was for entrenching around Richmond so as to be able to free up the bulk of the army to move to the flank.

Why not tell the truth and blame those responsible for the frontal attacks because Lee only planned one, Malvern Hill. Jackson was most responsible because he was late and lethargic at every turn. And no Malvern Hill couldn't be flanked, swamp on one side and river the other.

Who ordered Jackson to get behind Pope? And it was Longstreet who "resisted not wanting to engage" because he let the artillery do the work of a infantry attack and saved lives. Also Longstreet wasn't up on Day 1.

Davis agreed with the invasion and gave his permission. England and France weren't going to recognize the Confederacy as long as Lincoln was basically giving away the food to feed the workers of their textile industry and Egypt was becoming a alternative source of cheep cotton.

Yes Burnside stole a march on Lee, something Grant couldn't do, but there were other places Lee could make a stand before Richmond and it was the winter.

No Lee knew they were corssing the river into the Wilderness as it was happening, the ford were picketed by JEB's Cavalry. Rember Longstreet with two divisions was gathering supplies and letting the teams and artillery horses graze in greener pastures. And no Lee was first to meet the flanking movement with Anderson's and McLaws divisions, Jackson then came up to support as the Federals fell back on Chancellorsville as night was falling. And yes Jackson's flank attack was devastating but the victory wasn't won until the next day when Stuart taking command of Jackson's Corps because Jackson and AP Hill were wounded finally united the two wings of the army after brutal and unimaginative frontal attacks.

Once Raymond and Jackson are taken and the railroad torn up there is no possibility for Johnston to relieve Vicksburg because he didn't have the transportation capability to supply the 25,000 men he had. Plus with respect they wouldn't have gotten to anywhere near Vicksburg in time to prevent the surrender even if Joe Johnston had the capability to supply any relief attempt. You had to have a railhead within about 25 miles to be able to supply a force or the capability to live off the land. The Miss countryside between Jackson and Vicksburg didn't offer the later and Grant tore up the only rail line. Oh and Jackson was talking about mounting his corps on mules and heading toward the Ohio River at one point before his death but had no part in the planning for Gettysburg. I agree about reacting to situations that arise but then why didn't this apply with Little Mac?

Longstreet was wounded after the surprise flank attack while discussing a possible further attack from the same railroad cut if Hancock wasn't prepared for it. The Wilderness was a major defeat for the Union but Hancock had his flank unit refused and prepared for a flank attack so any attck on him was going to be frontal.

No Lee was straightening his line and eliminating a salient. Its called the Muleshoe because at that point Lee's lines curved out like a horseshoe in shap. Once straightened out it would free up troops to form a mobile reserve.

Your missing a whole month in the Overland Campaign and not a word on Cold Harbor???

Do you really think sending Hood Early's Corps was going to do any good? Do you understand how Hood was stabing Joe Johnston in the back before taking his job? Declining to attack twice? You do know that Lee advised against sacking Johnston right? That he basically said right out that Hood wasn't up to the job? That Bragg was now military advisor to Davis? What happens when Grant finds out Early is gone and he doesn't have to send troops to the Washington defenses?




--John R. Price


Thanks for the post i dont disagree very much and my time is brief at the moment. Jackson had grand strategy plans that i think could have done the south much better and offered those plans to both Lee and Davis I gave a general difference between there overall outlook. For more see here.

https://www.amazon.com/How-South-Could-Have-Civil/dp/0307346005


It has been awhile and my new book is near thew place and time, but i believe the book Great Campaigns The Peninsula Campaign David G Martin Combined Books PA 1992 shows the fault in Lees frontal and the possibility of a flank attack. If i get time i will search and look over the maps etc. If I get time lol. Lee also used frontal in the wilderness and Gettysburg that were costly.


It was also Lee that was hesitant and himself told davis he wanted to avoid engagement at second manasas because he had the smaller force despite jacksons great work.
https://www.amazon.com/Such-Troops-These-Leadership-Confederate/dp/0425271307/ref=pd_sim_14_23?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=0425271307&pd_rd_r=S9132QSHHY3E48DYY9BC&pd_rd_w=j40g7&pd_rd_wg=4H8Gc&psc=1&refRID=S9132QSHHY3E48DYY9BC


I would say the chance of european reacagnistion was better than you lead on at this time. Davis agree with the maryland invasion? could you support?


Does not change the fact that Burnside stole a march on Lee.



I would disagree. If lee new the movement was coming, why have hoods elite division gone and Longstreet? no lee was caught off guard. Stuarts Calvary was fighting stoneman if i remember correct. Otherwise Lee alwyed the army to get on his flank, cross 2 bridges and than reacted in a dangerous position on the defensive in a hurry shifting large forces.

Great Campaigns The Chancellorsville campaign David G Martin Combined Books PA 1991
Rebel Resurgent Frederiscksburg to Chancellorsville Willliam K Goolrick Time life Books, Alexandria, Virginia William K Goolrick 1985
https://www.amazon.com/Such-Troops-These-Leadership-Confederate/dp/0425271307/ref=pd_sim_14_23?_encoding=UTF8&pd_rd_i=0425271307&pd_rd_r=S9132QSHHY3E48DYY9BC&pd_rd_w=j40g7&pd_rd_wg=4H8Gc&psc=1&refRID=S9132QSHHY3E48DYY9BC



Not as i have read. The hidden rail line the union were still unaware of at wilderness was open for another flanking attack. But Lee did not trust another new commander to do it, and did not have time to make it, he designed a frontal that failed.


By removing artillery? why not pull them back if that is the case? because he was massing for an attack that was later made with small success.


Let me know if you can find fault to add I will. Muleshoe was cold harbor.


Agreed. Grant was unaware Early went to the valley so maybe he would not have or attacked frontal. Hypothetical i agree so not a strong criticism.
---------------
“The CSA congress can have no such power over states officers. The state governments are an essential part of the political system, upon the separate and independent sovereignty of the states the foundation of the confederacy”
-1864 Virginia supremeCourt

John R. Price
Wilkes-Barre, PA, USA
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant
Posts: 537

Re: A Critical Look at Robert E Lee
Posted on: 8/31/2017 1:31:55 AM
1stvermont,

Could you explain what grand strategy plans Jackson had? The couple that I've read about were fantasy because they were beyond the capabilities of the Confederacy.

The Chickhomney is to the right and the James is to the left and rear with Western Run on the right and Turkey Creek to the left and Union gunboats were in the river to cover the flanks. As for the frontal attacks they weren't the plan. Lee tried to use Jackson's force as the flaning force 3 different times and all three times Jackson was late and he tried to use Magruder and Holmes as flanking forces but they were tardy letting the AOP escape also. Twice AP Hill attacked frontally when the plan was for his troops to be the holding force while Jackson crushed the flank.

He was already engaged and excuse me but the whole point of the maneuver is to engage. Jackson was being pushed to his limit with most of Longstreet's Corps up and not discovered by Pope on Pope's flank. Lee and Longstreet were observing from a hill on which Stephen Lee's artillery was in action enfilading Union units as the went in for the attack. A messenger from Jackson came asking for help and Lee turned to Longstreet suggesting a attack and Longstreet countered that he wanted to bring up more artillery and let it do the job. That is the only "hesitation" on Lee's part in the entire campaign. I think your taking things out of context.

He sent Lee DH Hill's and McLaws's Divisions and another 3,000 or so returning wounded. If Lee doesn't get them he can't invade. Why what is in recognition for GB or France? They are selling more iron and steel to the North than the South could ever affors. They are selling smiggled goods to the South at exorbitant profit. They are buying cotton bonds for pennies on the dollar. They are making more money of the food that Lincoln is giving away than they could off of the textile industry. Why would they kill the goose that was laying the golden egg?

Longstreet with Hood and Pickett were gathering supplies and letting the mounts and teams graze because the armies had basically made northern Virginia a wasteland and the Confederacy didn't have the logistical capability to keep the mounts and teams going through the winter. It is why each winter the Cavalry and most of the artillery were sent to different locations. Plus I didn't say he knew well in advance I said he knew in the days leading up to and the day Hooker crossed the river. Try "Chancellorsville" by Stephen W. Sears Chapters 2 through 6.

It wasn't a rail line it was a unfinished railroad cut, tracks were never laid. After the first flank attack Hancock's troops fell back to the position they had fortified and part of the fortification faced south and the part facing south was occupied. The unfinished rail line cut was to the south of that fortified position.

You remove the artillery first and use it to cover the infantry as they pull out but the Union attack happened in the middle of the process before the infantry had started to pull out. Who was massing for attack?

No the Muleshoe was not at Cold Harbor.

That isn't what I said. I said that there was no point in sending troops from Lee to the Army of Tenn. That Hood would have screwed it up and just given Grant a greater advantage.

---------------
A battle long forgotten by our country in a war never understood by our country.
"to satisfy our endless needs and justify our bloody deeds, in the name of destiny and in the name of God"


1stvermont
Vermont, VT, USA
top 50
E-4 Specialist


Posts: 81

Re: A Critical Look at Robert E Lee
Posted on: 9/6/2017 8:41:57 PM

Quote:
1stvermont,

Could you explain what grand strategy plans Jackson had? The couple that I've read about were fantasy because they were beyond the capabilities of the Confederacy.

The Chickhomney is to the right and the James is to the left and rear with Western Run on the right and Turkey Creek to the left and Union gunboats were in the river to cover the flanks. As for the frontal attacks they weren't the plan. Lee tried to use Jackson's force as the flaning force 3 different times and all three times Jackson was late and he tried to use Magruder and Holmes as flanking forces but they were tardy letting the AOP escape also. Twice AP Hill attacked frontally when the plan was for his troops to be the holding force while Jackson crushed the flank.

He was already engaged and excuse me but the whole point of the maneuver is to engage. Jackson was being pushed to his limit with most of Longstreet's Corps up and not discovered by Pope on Pope's flank. Lee and Longstreet were observing from a hill on which Stephen Lee's artillery was in action enfilading Union units as the went in for the attack. A messenger from Jackson came asking for help and Lee turned to Longstreet suggesting a attack and Longstreet countered that he wanted to bring up more artillery and let it do the job. That is the only "hesitation" on Lee's part in the entire campaign. I think your taking things out of context.

He sent Lee DH Hill's and McLaws's Divisions and another 3,000 or so returning wounded. If Lee doesn't get them he can't invade. Why what is in recognition for GB or France? They are selling more iron and steel to the North than the South could ever affors. They are selling smiggled goods to the South at exorbitant profit. They are buying cotton bonds for pennies on the dollar. They are making more money of the food that Lincoln is giving away than they could off of the textile industry. Why would they kill the goose that was laying the golden egg?

Longstreet with Hood and Pickett were gathering supplies and letting the mounts and teams graze because the armies had basically made northern Virginia a wasteland and the Confederacy didn't have the logistical capability to keep the mounts and teams going through the winter. It is why each winter the Cavalry and most of the artillery were sent to different locations. Plus I didn't say he knew well in advance I said he knew in the days leading up to and the day Hooker crossed the river. Try "Chancellorsville" by Stephen W. Sears Chapters 2 through 6.

It wasn't a rail line it was a unfinished railroad cut, tracks were never laid. After the first flank attack Hancock's troops fell back to the position they had fortified and part of the fortification faced south and the part facing south was occupied. The unfinished rail line cut was to the south of that fortified position.

You remove the artillery first and use it to cover the infantry as they pull out but the Union attack happened in the middle of the process before the infantry had started to pull out. Who was massing for attack?

No the Muleshoe was not at Cold Harbor.

That isn't what I said. I said that there was no point in sending troops from Lee to the Army of Tenn. That Hood would have screwed it up and just given Grant a greater advantage.


--John R. Price



Sorry for the delay sir.


Jacksons main strategy was to hit the union where they were weak not their strength. In this case he wanted to be reinforced in the valley to 40,000 ti invade Maryland and pull mac from the peninsula so as to avoid bloody frontal.


Very true, in regards to malvern it was not where he should have flanked but should not have attacked. Jackson was not all at fault for those instances, in fact Lee was. I chose to hold the info for a future thread.



Perhaps. But ultimate control belongs to lee and he did allow longstreet to talk him out of an attack. But I think you are overall correct here.


because once the war appeared to be about abolition, england could no longer join.


thanks for the reference i will try and check it out.





what if joe j had more troops? of course its hypothetical but the option was there for the csa, if they saved atlanta, likely win the election.


---------------
“The CSA congress can have no such power over states officers. The state governments are an essential part of the political system, upon the separate and independent sovereignty of the states the foundation of the confederacy”
-1864 Virginia supremeCourt

 Civil War Commanders and Units    
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