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 American Civil War Politics (Unmoderated)    
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littlepowell
SC, USA
top 25
E-6 Staff Sergeant


Posts: 391
http://www.scourgeofwar.com/
Dems unvail bill to band Confederate monuments on all federal property
Posted on: 8/18/2017 12:39:39 PM
Normally I don't touch politics with a 10 foot pole, but I couldn't let this one slide. I understand that Confederate memorials represent hate to a lot of folks. So If you want to remove them from your town square etc., go right ahead. But please don't touch my battlefields!

[Read More]
---------------
http://www.scourgeofwar.com/ - Historical tactical combat games for PC.

Dick Evick
Waco , TX, USA
top 40
E-4 Corporal
Posts: 143

Re: Dems unvail bill to band Confederate monuments on all federal property
Posted on: 8/18/2017 1:16:22 PM
We have a small monument area locally for those who served in the various Texas Brigades, visible from I-35. It was the target of vandalism until the battle flag was no longer flown.

Usually no flag is currently flown but sometimes the Hardee Flag is flown, no problems as offended groups don't know what it is.

Dick.

OpanaPointer
St. Louis, MO, USA
top 20
E-7 Sgt First Class
Posts: 466

Re: Dems unvail bill to band Confederate monuments on all federal property
Posted on: 8/18/2017 1:23:10 PM
I'm not in favor of using your tax dollars to support any Confederate memorial.

john hayward
Allenstown, NH, USA
top 40
E-4 Corporal
Posts: 131

Re: Dems unvail bill to band Confederate monuments on all federal property
Posted on: 8/18/2017 1:37:30 PM
I'm all on favor of getting rid of the Longstreet statue at Gettysburg

littlepowell
SC, USA
top 25
E-6 Staff Sergeant


Posts: 391
http://www.scourgeofwar.com/
Re: Dems unvail bill to band Confederate monuments on all federal property
Posted on: 8/18/2017 3:19:12 PM
Well I suppose I should enjoy this while I still can:


---------------
http://www.scourgeofwar.com/ - Historical tactical combat games for PC.

1stvermont
Vermont, VT, USA
top 50
E-4 Specialist


Posts: 68

Re: Dems unvail bill to band Confederate monuments on all federal property
Posted on: 8/18/2017 7:06:21 PM
I hate to see any part of civil war history lost. Its my favorite subject.
---------------
“The CSA congress can have no such power over states officers. The state governments are an essential part of the political system, upon the separate and independent sovereignty of the states the foundation of the confederacy”
-1864 Virginia supremeCourt

Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 2774

Re: Dems unvail bill to band Confederate monuments on all federal property
Posted on: 8/18/2017 7:20:50 PM
Hi 1stvermont,

Right On!

Welcome to MHO!
MD
---------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

OpanaPointer
St. Louis, MO, USA
top 20
E-7 Sgt First Class
Posts: 466

Re: Dems unvail bill to band Confederate monuments on all federal property
Posted on: 8/19/2017 6:38:48 AM

Quote:
I hate to see any part of civil war history lost. Its my favorite subject.
--1stvermont

How about putting them on property that isn't maintained by your tax dollars.

scoucer
Berlin, Germany
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 1924

Re: Dems unvail bill to band Confederate monuments on all federal property
Posted on: 8/19/2017 9:21:48 AM

Quote:
I'm all on favor of getting rid of the Longstreet statue at Gettysburg
--john hayward


Why ?

Trevor
---------------
`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie

Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.

John R. Price
Wilkes-Barre, PA, USA
top 20
E-7 Sgt First Class
Posts: 472

Re: Dems unvail bill to band Confederate monuments on all federal property
Posted on: 8/19/2017 11:47:23 AM
OpanaPointer,

Washington and Jefferson owned slaves get their monuments and statues off government property. Lincoln said "free but never equal" get his off. How many people protested the Vietnam War? That Memorial has got to go. How many people are totally anti-war? They all have to go. All these statues and monuments and memorials are for human beings or the institutions human beings created and as such have faults that will offend somebody because there are no perfect human beings. Oh and what are you going to do with Gettysburg and all the other Civil War Battlefield Parks? Only teach the Union side or the politically correct and sanitized Union side? What are you going to do with the Alamo?
---------------
A battle long forgotten by our country in a war never understood by our country.
"to satisfy our endless needs and justify our bloody deeds, in the name of destiny and in the name of God"


OpanaPointer
St. Louis, MO, USA
top 20
E-7 Sgt First Class
Posts: 466

Re: Dems unvail bill to band Confederate monuments on all federal property
Posted on: 8/19/2017 12:56:57 PM

Quote:
OpanaPointer,

Washington and Jefferson owned slaves get their monuments and statues off government property. Lincoln said "free but never equal" get his off. How many people protested the Vietnam War? That Memorial has got to go. How many people are totally anti-war? They all have to go. All these statues and monuments and memorials are for human beings or the institutions human beings created and as such have faults that will offend somebody because there are no perfect human beings. Oh and what are you going to do with Gettysburg and all the other Civil War Battlefield Parks? Only teach the Union side or the politically correct and sanitized Union side? What are you going to do with the Alamo?
--John R. Price

You presume a lot from my post.

But what about the 200 foot tall image of the Flying Spaghetti Monster on the side of the "National" Cathedral? If it's okay for one it should be okay for all. OR we can simply not put such on land maintained by taxpayers. Private property, suit yourself. I don't anyone changing history, unless it's to correct mistakes (accidental or deliberate) made by earlier writers. But I don't want to support one-sided views of events either.

Gregory C. White
Canton, GA, USA
top 40
E-4 Corporal
Posts: 172

Re: Dems unvail bill to band Confederate monuments on all federal property
Posted on: 8/19/2017 2:03:04 PM

Quote:
I'm not in favor of using your tax dollars to support any Confederate memorial.
--OpanaPointer


Do you want the Confederate state monuments removed from Gettysburg, Antietam and other battlefields supported by tax dollars as well ?

How about statues and monuments of Andrew Jackson, George Washington and Thomas Jefferson on taxpayer-funded property. Many find them "offensive". The mall in Washington, DC would suddenly become empty ! There are more than enough quotes by Lincoln that would "offend" the snowflakes and social justice warriors to warrant the purging of his ugly face from the landscape.

Where does this end?
---------------
"I do not believe that any man can adequately appreciate the world of to-day unless he has some knowledge of...[and] some feeling for...the history of the world of the past." Theodore Roosevelt

OpanaPointer
St. Louis, MO, USA
top 20
E-7 Sgt First Class
Posts: 466

Re: Dems unvail bill to band Confederate monuments on all federal property
Posted on: 8/19/2017 2:17:17 PM
Why should they stay?

OpanaPointer
St. Louis, MO, USA
top 20
E-7 Sgt First Class
Posts: 466

Re: Dems unvail bill to band Confederate monuments on all federal property
Posted on: 8/19/2017 2:37:12 PM
Quick question: How much history to we actually learn from a statue?

(This should be amusing.)

Gregory C. White
Canton, GA, USA
top 40
E-4 Corporal
Posts: 172

Re: Dems unvail bill to band Confederate monuments on all federal property
Posted on: 8/19/2017 5:53:00 PM

Quote:
Quick question: How much history to we actually learn from a statue?

(This should be amusing.)
--OpanaPointer


If removing all the statuary - Union and Confederate @ Gettysburg and other battlefields, restoring them
to their war-era appearance, would be welcomed by many.
---------------
"I do not believe that any man can adequately appreciate the world of to-day unless he has some knowledge of...[and] some feeling for...the history of the world of the past." Theodore Roosevelt

OpanaPointer
St. Louis, MO, USA
top 20
E-7 Sgt First Class
Posts: 466

Re: Dems unvail bill to band Confederate monuments on all federal property
Posted on: 8/19/2017 6:06:27 PM
Not related to my post.

john hayward
Allenstown, NH, USA
top 40
E-4 Corporal
Posts: 131

Re: Dems unvail bill to band Confederate monuments on all federal property
Posted on: 8/19/2017 8:19:25 PM
Trevor
Because I feel the statue doesn't do justice to Longstreet. It looks like he is riding a pony and he appears to be modeled after the Gettysburg movie. He deserves better

Gregory C. White
Canton, GA, USA
top 40
E-4 Corporal
Posts: 172

Re: Dems unvail bill to band Confederate monuments on all federal property
Posted on: 8/20/2017 8:03:45 PM

Quote:
Trevor
Because I feel the statue doesn't do justice to Longstreet. It looks like he is riding a pony and he appears to be modeled after the Gettysburg movie. He deserves better
--john hayward


Neither the horse or sculpture of Longstreet does the First Corps commander justice. I can't believe the model
for the sculpture and the final dimensions were approved by the group funding the project (Longstreet Society ?) and that
the NPS approved its inclusion in the park.
---------------
"I do not believe that any man can adequately appreciate the world of to-day unless he has some knowledge of...[and] some feeling for...the history of the world of the past." Theodore Roosevelt

morris crumley
Lawrenceville, GA, USA
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 1196

Re: Dems unvail bill to band Confederate monuments on all federal property
Posted on: 8/20/2017 10:20:26 PM
As a member of the Longstreet Society at the time...I can`t believe it either. It looks like the brawny paper towel guy riding a midget pony!

Respects, Morris
---------------
"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."

littlepowell
SC, USA
top 25
E-6 Staff Sergeant


Posts: 391
http://www.scourgeofwar.com/
Re: Dems unvail bill to band Confederate monuments on all federal property
Posted on: 8/21/2017 8:12:06 AM

Quote:
It looks like the brawny paper towel guy riding a midget pony!


lol! I got a good laugh out of that one, Morris. It's always good to have a little comic relief during these times of tension.

I remember thinking "hmm.. somebody dropped the ball on this one." when I saw it.. I suppose it's a good thing it's sort of tucked away in the woods.
---------------
http://www.scourgeofwar.com/ - Historical tactical combat games for PC.

Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 2774

Re: Dems unvail bill to band Confederate monuments on all federal property
Posted on: 8/21/2017 8:17:02 AM
Maybe Longstreet was on a Shetland Pony??

[Read More]
---------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

Gregory C. White
Canton, GA, USA
top 40
E-4 Corporal
Posts: 172

Re: Dems unvail bill to band Confederate monuments on all federal property
Posted on: 8/21/2017 9:59:24 AM

Quote:
Maybe Longstreet was on a Shetland Pony??

[Read More]
--Michigan Dave


Between riding the Shetland pony and all that see-gar smoke, perhaps Old Pete's vision was impaired @ Gettysburg?
---------------
"I do not believe that any man can adequately appreciate the world of to-day unless he has some knowledge of...[and] some feeling for...the history of the world of the past." Theodore Roosevelt

john hayward
Allenstown, NH, USA
top 40
E-4 Corporal
Posts: 131

Re: Dems unvail bill to band Confederate monuments on all federal property
Posted on: 8/21/2017 10:20:56 AM
He needed to climb Longstreet's Tower there at edge of field. This goes right up there with "Where did they put all the monuments during the battle?"

Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 2774

Re: Dems unvail bill to band Confederate monuments on all federal property
Posted on: 8/22/2017 11:10:54 AM
Hi just visited the Confederate Prison Cemetery on Johnsons Island, Ohio. It was a solemn place, it had a statue dedicated to the CSA soldiers who died there, put up I believe by the Daughters of the Confederacy. These Southern Soldiers must have gone through hell especially in the winter! Imagine being on an isolated island in Lake Erie? Anyway as far as I know no complaints or groups wanting to tare this statue down? From what I understand this was mostly a CSA Officers Prison, guys from the Gettysburg Battle were prisoned here.

[Read More]

Very Historical Place,
MD

BTW There was a plot to free these prisoners brought on through Canada, involving taking over great lakes ships going to the island and releasing the prisoners!

[Read More]

History is certainly fascinating!
---------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5313

Re: Dems unvail bill to band Confederate monuments on all federal property
Posted on: 8/22/2017 11:42:28 AM

Quote:
BTW There was a plot to free these prisoners brought on through Canada, involving taking over great lakes ships going to the island and releasing the prisoners!


Both Confederate spies and Union agents were operating in Toronto and Montréal. And the British were watching both.

There was considerable tension at times between the US and GB when the US felt that the Brits weren't doing enough to stop the efforts.

The Confederates also had relatives in Canada. One of those ran a foundry in Guelph, not far from Toronto. This foundry was turning out munitions for the Confederacy.

It had orders for shells, grenades, cannon and devices that were called torpedoes but were essentially contact mines to blow up ships.

[Read More]

John Yeats Beall was given a considerable amount of money from the Confederacy to set up shop in Toronto.

Eventually, the Confederate spy ring was busted in an operation ordered by the Governor General of the province, Viscount Monck.

The operation resulted in the extradition of Beall and others even though Jefferson Davis appealed, saying that they were not spies but commissioned officers of the Confederate forces and entitled to the protection that that affords.

The Queen's Hotel in Toronto was the home base for the Confederate spy ring and by most accounts, they lived well.

Union agents were also present and British agents, all in downtown Toronto.

Confederate spy HQ



From here several plots, including the Johnson Island plot to release Confederate prisoners were hatched. But Beall and his mates were somewhat incompetent, I think.

A few more details on the plots hatched in Toronto, Montreal and Halifax.

[Read More]

Cheers,

George

OpanaPointer
St. Louis, MO, USA
top 20
E-7 Sgt First Class
Posts: 466

Re: Dems unvail bill to band Confederate monuments on all federal property
Posted on: 8/22/2017 12:15:56 PM
We're gonna build a wall down the middle of the St. Lawrence Seaway to keep them spies out!

Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 2774

Re: Dems unvail bill to band Confederate monuments on all federal property
Posted on: 8/22/2017 12:38:07 PM
George,

I'm going to flat out ask you, Were your 1860 era ancestors aiding Confederate Spies & Agents!!!!!?????????

Bad, very bad,
MD

BTW ever notice Confederacy, & Canada, both start with C's???
---------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5313

Re: Dems unvail bill to band Confederate monuments on all federal property
Posted on: 8/22/2017 3:02:34 PM
There was support for the Confederacy by some people but not for the reasons that you may think.

The US had been making noises about fulfilling Manifest Destiny by, once again, threatening to annex the British colonies to make them part of the United States. See William Seward and some of his comments from that era.

He does have his defenders who say that Seward never intended to conquer Canada.

See this piece written in the NY Times in 1862 in which the author refutes the Canadian and British claims that Seward was after Canada.

[Read More]

But there are other quotes that clearly indicate that he had designs on Britain's colonies in North America.

While acquiring Alaska in 1867, Seward did attempt to acquire what would be British Columbia. He had designs on the Dominican and Haiti.

So there was animosity in Canada toward the US because of him and a positive view of the Confederacy who were in opposition to the Union. It was not universal however.

Remember we had abolished slavery a long time before the civil war and that institution was considered an abomination.

However, of the estimated 50,000 men from north of the border who headed south to fight in your civil war, the great majority fought in the Union army. Some fought with the Confederacy. Note the porosity of the border in those days meant that when the war broke out, British subjects would have been living in the US, for work. So they would join up even if born in Nova Scotia or the Province of Canada.

One good thing was that while you were fighting your civil war, negotiations had been taking place to bring four of the British colonies together in a great Confederation called Canada. In part, the impetus to do so was to improve defensive measures against the US and the million man army sitting just across the border.

Seward's comments on annexation also accelerated an agreement between the four colonies and Canada was born on July 1, 1867.


Cheers,

George

Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 2774

Re: Dems unvail bill to band Confederate monuments on all federal property
Posted on: 8/30/2017 2:55:27 PM
The NY Post agrees with Seward!?

[Read More]

George, we'll even let Ontario be the 51st state!?
MD

Also on the good side, we'll have to re-hold the Presidential Election, with the way things have gone, & with Canada's votes, I think we would have a different president!?
---------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5313

Re: Dems unvail bill to band Confederate monuments on all federal property
Posted on: 8/30/2017 5:56:28 PM
NY Post doesn't agree. The author is Diane Francis, whose dual citizenship is unfortunate. That's her position.

I have always thought that she thinks too much like an American and not enough as a Canadian.

A Canadian of convenience.

Cheers,

George


Gregory C. White
Canton, GA, USA
top 40
E-4 Corporal
Posts: 172

Re: Dems unvail bill to band Confederate monuments on all federal property
Posted on: 8/31/2017 12:21:53 AM

Quote:
The NY Post agrees with Seward!?

[Read More]

George, we'll even let Ontario be the 51st state!?
MD

Also on the good side, we'll have to re-hold the Presidential Election, with the way things have gone, & with Canada's votes, I think we would have a different president!?
--Michigan Dave


M.D.,

We have too many states. Its time to delete, not add.
---------------
"I do not believe that any man can adequately appreciate the world of to-day unless he has some knowledge of...[and] some feeling for...the history of the world of the past." Theodore Roosevelt

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5313

Re: Dems unvail bill to band Confederate monuments on all federal property
Posted on: 8/31/2017 6:36:14 AM

Quote:
M.D.,

We have too many states. Its time to delete, not add.


There seems to be an assumption that we would want to join the US.

Most Canadians are very happy to be friends and equally as happy that there is a border line between us, especially given the leadership that you folks have chosen this go round.

We think that we do some things better up here.

BWilson

top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 3326

Re: Dems unvail bill to band Confederate monuments on all federal property
Posted on: 8/31/2017 6:55:59 AM
There seems to be an assumption that we would want to join the US.

 Maybe on MD's part. I certainly have no problem with international frontiers.

Cheers

BW
---------------
With occasional, fatigued glances at life's rear-view mirror from the other side of time.

Society's righteous paranoia lows profoundly. -- random wisdom of a computer

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5313

Re: Dems unvail bill to band Confederate monuments on all federal property
Posted on: 8/31/2017 8:24:26 AM
Glad to see that the belief in Manifest Destiny has died, BW.

Cheers,

George

BWilson

top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 3326

Re: Dems unvail bill to band Confederate monuments on all federal property
Posted on: 8/31/2017 8:53:52 AM

Quote:
Glad to see that the belief in Manifest Destiny has died, BW.

Cheers,

George
--George


George,

 I'm no expert, but as far as I can tell, there isn't much fervor for things like that in the USA anymore.

Cheers

BW
---------------
With occasional, fatigued glances at life's rear-view mirror from the other side of time.

Society's righteous paranoia lows profoundly. -- random wisdom of a computer

1stvermont
Vermont, VT, USA
top 50
E-4 Specialist


Posts: 68

Re: Dems unvail bill to band Confederate monuments on all federal property
Posted on: 9/4/2017 7:22:48 AM

Quote:

Quote:
I hate to see any part of civil war history lost. Its my favorite subject.
--1stvermont

How about putting them on property that isn't maintained by your tax dollars.
--OpanaPointer



well there is much on my tax paid property that i wish i could do away with. if i got to chose much of it would go. I would keep the statues out of preference. I would be willing to give up the status to get rid of the much worse we have/support.
---------------
“The CSA congress can have no such power over states officers. The state governments are an essential part of the political system, upon the separate and independent sovereignty of the states the foundation of the confederacy”
-1864 Virginia supremeCourt

1stvermont
Vermont, VT, USA
top 50
E-4 Specialist


Posts: 68

Re: Dems unvail bill to band Confederate monuments on all federal property
Posted on: 9/4/2017 7:24:44 AM

Quote:
Quick question: How much history to we actually learn from a statue?

(This should be amusing.)
--OpanaPointer


it seems we learn they were evil slave owning rebels. What we should learn, might be different.
---------------
“The CSA congress can have no such power over states officers. The state governments are an essential part of the political system, upon the separate and independent sovereignty of the states the foundation of the confederacy”
-1864 Virginia supremeCourt

1stvermont
Vermont, VT, USA
top 50
E-4 Specialist


Posts: 68

Re: Dems unvail bill to band Confederate monuments on all federal property
Posted on: 9/4/2017 7:29:16 AM
we should remove Lincolns statue and from the $5 bill.


“I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in anyway the social and political equality of the white and black races -- that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I, as much as any other man, am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.”
-Abraham Lincoln, First Lincoln-Douglas Debate, Ottawa, Illinois, Sept. 18, 1858, in The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln vol.3, pp. 145-146.

“I agree with Judge Douglas he [African Americans] is not my equal in many respects certainly not in color, perhaps not in moral or intellectual endowment.”
-1858 Abraham Lincoln Response to Supreme court Dread Scott ruling

"You and we are different races. We have between us a broader difference than exists between almost any other two races. Whether it is right or wrong I need not discuss, but this physical difference is a great disadvantage to us both, as I think your race suffers very greatly, many of them by living among us, while ours suffer from your presence.... It is better for us both, therefore, to be separated."
-Abraham Lincoln, speech to a group of black freedmen in Washington D.C., August 1862

“I tell him very frankly that I am not in favor of negro citizenship”
-Abraham Lincoln

“I will to the very last stand by the law of this state[ Illinois], which forbids the marrying of white people with Negroes.”
-Abraham Lincoln


"The whole nation is interested that the best use shall be made of these [new western] territories. We want them for the homes of free white people."
-Abraham Lincoln, October 16, 1854

"What I would most desire would be the separation of the white and black races,"
-Abraham Lincoln Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln, vol. 2, p. 521 17 July 1858

“If all earthly power were given to me...my first impulse would be to free all the slaves, and send them to Liberia, to their own native land”
-Abraham Lincoln 1854


---------------
“The CSA congress can have no such power over states officers. The state governments are an essential part of the political system, upon the separate and independent sovereignty of the states the foundation of the confederacy”
-1864 Virginia supremeCourt

OpanaPointer
St. Louis, MO, USA
top 20
E-7 Sgt First Class
Posts: 466

Re: Dems unvail bill to band Confederate monuments on all federal property
Posted on: 9/4/2017 9:54:53 AM
Did the KKK sponsor Lincoln's image on our money?

Gregory C. White
Canton, GA, USA
top 40
E-4 Corporal
Posts: 172

Re: Dems unvail bill to band Confederate monuments on all federal property
Posted on: 9/4/2017 6:54:55 PM

Quote:
Did the KKK sponsor Lincoln's image on our money?
--OpanaPointer


If we are judging people of the 19st century with 21st century social values and moralities,
it would appear so.


---------------
"I do not believe that any man can adequately appreciate the world of to-day unless he has some knowledge of...[and] some feeling for...the history of the world of the past." Theodore Roosevelt

 American Civil War Politics (Unmoderated)    
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