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 American Civil War Politics (Unmoderated)
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1stvermont
Vermont, VT, USA
top 50
E-4 Specialist


Posts: 93

Abraham Lincoln was a Life Long Abolitionist- Responding to PC History
Posted on: 12/9/2017 6:46:29 AM
“Lincoln is theology, not historiology. He is a faith, he is a church, he is a religion, and he has his own priests and acolytes, most of whom . . . are passionately opposed to anybody telling the truth about him . . . with rare exceptions, you can’t believe what any major Lincoln scholar tells you about Abraham Lincoln and race.”
–Lerone Bennett, Jr., Forced into Glory, p. 114

“Lincoln was the most-hated president of all time during his own lifetime...The fact that he is now the most revered of all American presidents is a result of the work of generations of court historians and statist apologists who have literally rewritten American history in the same manner that the Soviets rewrote Russian history to consolidate their political power”.
-Lincoln The Great Centralizer Thomas J Dilorenzo


In poll after poll Lincoln is regarded as our best and most beloved president. Today he is seen by both democrats and republicans as our greatest president. The republicans especially seem to almost worship Lincoln as the founder of the republican party. This I believe is because most people are taught the Lincoln of myth, that he was a strong abolitionist, a champion of racial equality, the great emancipator, the Lincoln of myth went to war to free the slaves. Lincoln saved the republic, he did not violate but upheld the constitution. The Lincoln of myth was a kind, warmhearted, caring person and a great leader who united and led America to greatness.

So not only what is known of him is false or misleading, the many negatives are generally unknown as well. These negatives are much larger than the common public receives through government textbooks and media. So what was a very unpopular president at his time, filtered though media and government education, you get a near demi-god like president worthy of a statue in Washington, his birthday still celebrated as a national holiday, his face our money, carved into Mt Rushmore, our single greatest president, the myth of Abraham Lincoln.

Was Lincoln a Friend of Blacks?

“The exact opposite of what is generally believed is often the truth”
Jean De La Bruyere 1645-1696

“No one has understood this better than the educated negroes... that Lincoln was not, above all other things, the liberator of the colored race”
-Roy Basler The Lincoln legend 1935

“He never contemplated with any degree of substantiation the prospect of a free negro race living in the same country as a free white race”
-- Roy Basler Lincoln Authority

“All de slaves hate de Yankees an when de southern soldiers came late in de night all de niggers got out of de bed an holdin torches high dey march behin de soldiers, all of dem singing We'll hang Abe Lincoln on de Sour Apple Tree. yes mam, dey wuz sorry dat dey wuz freeman' dey ain't got no reason tu be glad, case dey wuz happier den dan now”
Former slave Alice Baugh North Carolina Slave Narratives



Lincoln Fighter of Equality? Or White Supremacist

“I will say then that I am not, nor ever have been in favor of bringing about in anyway the social and political equality of the white and black races -- that I am not nor ever have been in favor of making voters or jurors of negroes, nor of qualifying them to hold office, nor to intermarry with white people; and I will say in addition to this that there is a physical difference between the white and black races which I believe will forever forbid the two races living together on terms of social and political equality. And inasmuch as they cannot so live, while they do remain together there must be the position of superior and inferior, and I, as much as any other man, am in favor of having the superior position assigned to the white race.”
-Abraham Lincoln, Lincoln-Douglas Debate Charleston, Illinois

“I agree with Judge Douglas he [African Americans] is not my equal in many respects certainly not in color, perhaps not in moral or intellectual endowment.”
-1858 Abraham Lincoln Response to Supreme court Dread Scott ruling


The Lincoln of myth is viewed as a friend to blacks and equality to all. Yet He was a white supremacist who viewed blacks as a inferior race, the inferiority of Mexicans and Indians, and the removal of natives from their lands. Lincoln rather compulsively used the N-word both in private and public, was a huge fan of "black face" minstrel shows, was famous for his racist jokes; and many of his White House appointees were shocked at his racist language. According to African American historian Lerone Bennett, Jr In his book Forced into Glory Abraham Lincoln's White Dream. Lincoln stated publicly that "America was made for the White people and not for the Negroes" he called the declaration of independence “The white man's charter of freedom” and At least twenty-one times Lincoln said publicly that he was opposed to equal rights for Blacks. He said he was against equal rights for negroes because “My own feeling will not admit this. [ negro equality]” He spoke often of “slaves as cattle.”

“Lincoln never pretended to be a racial liberal or a social innovator. He said repeatedly , in public and in private, that he believed in white supremacy”
-African American historian Lerone Bennett JR Forced into Glory Abraham Lincolns White dream

“Free them and make them politically and socially our equals? My own feelings will not admit of this . . . . We cannot then make them equals”
-Abraham Lincoln The Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln


He feared whites and blacks interbreeding and on June 26 1857 he was “Horrified at the thought of the mixing blood by the white and black races” saying and god has “made us separate” from the black race. Lincolns friend Ward Lamon said “In words and deeds postponed the interests of the blacks to the interest of the whites, and expressly subordinated the one to the other.” African American and former slave Fredrick Douglass at one time said Lincoln had “contempt for the negro”.

“Lincoln was not either our man or our model...in his interests, associations, thoughts and in his prejudices, he was a white man. Entirely devoted to the welfare of white men”
-Fredrick Douglass speech given years after Lincolns Assassination



Lincoln In Illinois

“I tell him very frankly that I am not in favor of negro citizenship”
-Abraham Lincoln

“I will to the very last stand by the law of this state[ Illinois], which forbids the marrying of white people with Negroes.”
-Abraham Lincoln


Over two decades in the state of Illinois as a lawyer and politician he never once said a word in favor of abolitionist, the abolish movement, or black rights. He never spoke out against the many unjust laws of the state that did not allow blacks to gather in large numbers, learn to read, or even play percussion instruments. In 1848 he supported the Illinois state law of not allowing any blacks to migrate to the state and not allowing blacks citizenship. Abolitionist and even a southern newspapers spoke out against the law. 1836 Tuesday Jan 5 Lincoln was among the voters 36-16 to not allow blacks the right to vote. He voted for a state law that taxed blacks without representation. On may 15 1840 Lincoln attacked Martin Van buren for his support for NY free Negroes the right to vote. In 1858 Lincoln refused to sigh a bill that would allow blacks to testify against whites in court.

“His democracy... was a white mans democracy. It did not contain negroes”
-Oscar Sherwin


Lincoln helped in court defend the fugitive slave law, while abolitionist in the 50's were condemning the fugitive slave laws. Between 1854-1860 Lincoln publically supported the laws fugitive slave laws 20 times. On August 28 1854 in Carrolton Illinois Lincoln even spoke “Against the repeal of the fugitive slave law”. Later in his Peoria speech he denied that he ever asked for a repeal or modification of the law. Lincoln went so far as to write letters to republicans in other states, supporting the fugitive slave law. Nathaniel Stevens said Lincoln had a “Whole hearted one might say, serene, support of the fugitive slave law”.

Abolitionist Republicans in Davenport Iowa said Lincoln “Clogged and inbeded the wheels and movements of the revolution.” In 1848 in a speech in Massachusetts Lincoln said “I have heard you have abolitionist here. We have a few in Illinois and we shot one the other day”. [Referring to death of Elijah Lovejoy] Whitney said he “Abhorred abolitionist” Ward Lamon said he was “Steady though quietly opponent of abolitionist”. He went to great lengths to dissociate himself from the abolitionist movement of the state. Donald Riddle a authority on Lincoln said “he did not make any attempt to advocate or support anti slavery or abolitionist messages”. In 1855 Elected officials like Owen Lovejoy gave abolitionist speeches, meanwhile at the same time Lincoln was endorsing shipping free blacks to Africa. Lovejoy said he would not obey the Fugitive slave law that Lincoln had supported. 36 speeches were given while Lincoln was in Illinois about slavery, not one was by Lincoln.

“Wherin did he show himself radical?[abolitionist] What new measure did he start? where did he show progress?”
-“Long John” Wentworth a Illinois abolitionist said of Lincoln

”Slavery will be as safe, and safer, in the union under such a president, than it can be under any president of a southern confederacy”
-Fredrick Douglass on the election of Abraham Lincoln 1860


Lincoln the Abolitionist?

“I have said a hundred times, and I have now no inclination to take it back, that I believe there is no right, and ought to be no inclination in the people of the free States to enter into the slave States, and interfere with the question of slavery at all.”
-Abraham Lincoln 1858

“I wish to make and to keep the distinction between the existing institution, and the extension of it, so broad, and so clear, that no honest man can misunderstand me, and no dishonest one, successfully misrepresent me.
-Abraham Lincoln 1854


Lincoln was never considered a abolitionist, he was against immediate abolition. He never intended to interfere with slavery where it already existed, only the extension of out into the west. He was not against slavery in the south, but the expansion of slavery into the west. He did not want the west to become “An asylum for slaves and niggers,” he also was against slavery's expansion out west so to not interfere with “free white labor.”

"The whole nation is interested that the best use shall be made of these [new western] territories. We want them for the homes of free white people."
 -Abraham Lincoln, October 16, 1854

“It is not rather our duty to make labor more respectable by preserving all black competition, [free and slave] especially in the territories”
-Abraham Lincoln

“Professor Holt quotes Ohio Congressman Joshua Giddings explaining: “To give the south the preponderance of political power would be itself to surrender our tariff, our internal improvements [a.k.a. corporate welfare], our distribution of proceeds of public lands . . .”
-Micheal Holt The Fate of Their Country: Politicians, Slavery Extension, and the Coming of the Civil War quoted by Thomas j Dilorenzo

“The political and economic implication of agrarian expansion westward were alarming to certain mercantile interests in the east who red the loss of their political and economic control of an expanding America”
-Merrill Jensen The New Nation Northeastern University Press


The fight over the extension of slavery was not moral, but political. slave trader James De Wolf became anti slavery when he started manufacturing companies. All of a sudden he wanted internal improvements and protective tariffs. Lincoln was said to be “quit” about the issue of slavery unlike the abolitionist in his party. When asked if he minded having abolitionist in his party Lincoln said “As long as I'm not tarred with the abolitionist brush.” Those who knew Lincoln in the white house spoke of Lincolns thoughts about abolitionist. Lincolns close friend General James Wadsworth said the welfare of the negroes “Didn't enter into his policy at all”. Donn Piatt said Lincoln “Laughed at the abolitionist as a disturbing element easily controlled”. Eli Thayer said Lincoln spoke of abolitionist “In terms of contempt and derision”. Abolitionist Sumner said of Lincoln “He does not know how to help or is not moved to help” and “I do not remember that I have had any help from him... he has no instinct or inspiration”. Many early historians blame Lincoln for “Ignored the greatest moral question of the time”.

“Not a abolitionist, hardly an anti slavery man”
-Abolitionist Wendell Phillips of Abraham Lincoln


When union general John Fremont emancipated slaves in union occupied Missouri, Lincoln recalled the orders and relived Fremont of his command. When union general David Hunter ordered general order number 11, declaring all slaves in SC/GA/FL to be “forever free” Lincoln revoked the proclamation and also ordered Hunter to disband the 1st South Carolina regiment made up of blacks hunter had enlisted. Late in 62 Lincoln supported in union held territory in VA and LA to continue slavery and allow the slave owners peacefully back into the union. In 1861 Mark Neely JR wrote “He more than once actually forced others who were trying to free slaves to cease doings”. Lincolns wife Mary, was from a slave owning family in Kentucky.

“He was opposed to slavery more because it was a public nuance than because of its injustice to the oppressed black man”
-John Hume

“there is such a mixture of political and moral questions, with this subject of slavery that no one can tell by what motives men are influenced in their opposition”
-Nehemiah Adams a South Side View of Slavery 1854


In 1848 as a congressmen Lincoln voted against a bill along with the entire south and pro slavery men that proposed an end to the slave trade in D.C. In 1849 Lincoln offered a compromise that was rejected. Section 4 of that compromise made clear no slave would be free [one version] until 1914. Section 5 expanded the fugitive slave law. The radical abolitionist at The Liberator editorial on July 13, 1860 Called Lincoln “The slave hound of Illinois” for his effort to expand the fugitive slave law into the district of Columbia.

As Lerone Bennett JR argues in Forced into Glory Abraham Lincolns White dream. Lincoln has received the glory that abolitionist white, black, citizens, newspaper editors, churches congressmen, and pastors had worked decades for. Men who Lincolns contemporaries named as the major abolitionist men like Senator Sumner, senator Lymon Trushbull, Congressmen Stevens, Salmon Chase, Wendell Phillips etc they deserve the glory that is falsely given to Lincoln. The 37Th congress were the ones who abolished slavery in the territories and authorized black troops.

“The president is indefatigable in his efforts to save slavery”
-Adam Gurowski August 1862


Abraham Lincoln the Great Emancipator? The Emancipation Proclamation

“Never did a man achieve more fame for what he did not do and for what he never intended to do”
- Lerone Bennett JR Forced into Glory Abraham Lincolns White dream

“To forestall a more revolutionary move against slavery...foreseeing he could not resits antislavery pressure much longer...using every weapon at his command to slow down, sidetrack or stop the emancipation flow”
-Steven Oates With menace Towards none the Life of Abraham Lincoln


The emancipation proclamation was given at a low point for the north near the end of 62. It was not designed to free slaves, it did not free a single slave, Lincoln himself knew it would not make the slaves free. It applied only to confederate controlled areas, not northern slave states or north controlled confederate area/states such as much of LA and VA. In fact all a confederate state had to do to not have this apply was rejoin the union , with slavery intact. The US Secretary of the state William Seward said of the emancipation proclamation “Where he could, he didn't. Where he did, he couldn't”.

The proclamation was given by Lincoln for a few reasons, the first was as a war measure. “As a fit and necessary war measure for suppressing said rebellion.” The war was lasting longer than anticipated and northern abolitionist and hard war democrats put tremendous pressure on Lincoln threatening to withhold men, material and support for the war unless Lincoln hit the south where it would hurt them, slaves. Lincoln and his cabinet were concerned a rebellion would start in the north if they did not do something towards emancipation. The proclamation would end with the war and any slave freed by it would become subject to local state laws. The document did not deal with the institution of slavery at all. Lincoln constantly wrote it was “Merely a war measure” and “Have effect only from its being a exercise of war power”. Lincolns stated “It would have no effect upon the children of the slaves born hereafter.” A second reason was To keep England and France out of the war. If the war had a abolitionist objective, that would force England and France to be neutral. Also to encourage slave revolts in the south. This was seen by some in Europe as its clear objective. To encourage slaves to rise up, kill their woman and children masters in a revolt while the men were fighting at the front, was immoral.

“For a length of time it had been hoped that the rebellion could be suppressed without resorting to it [emancipation] as a military measure”
-Abraham Lincoln The collective works


Lincoln said of the emancipation proclamation “I am driven to it.” Close friends said Lincoln “Abhorred” and had “reluctance” about issuing the emancipation. Nathan Stevenson said it was “Not choice” that it was issued by Lincoln, but Lincoln was pressured to do something from the abolitionist in the party such as the Governor of Massachusetts [who threatened to stop support of the war] Senator Charles Sumner of Massachusetts Representative Thaddeus Stevens etc. Charles Sumner said god and history forced Lincolns Hand. Radical governors had set up a meeting for September the 24th with a plan to withhold war support and some to call Lincoln to resign. Lincoln knowing of this meeting and the growing radical support among congress, governors and the people, issued the proclamation just two days before. Lincoln called the proclamation a “civil necessity to prevent the radicals from embarrassing the government.” In a meeting trying to sell his colonization plan to the border sates representatives, Lincoln said on July 12 “The pressure in this direction [intimidate emancipation] is still upon me, and is increasing”.

“The patriots of both houses... the American people whipped MR. Lincoln into the glory of having issued the emancipation proclamation”
-Diary of Adam Gurowski NY 1862-1866


The emancipation proclamation was actually “Regressive” in terms of abolition. On July17 1862 congress passed the second confiscation act. This act freed all rebel slaves “property” within the confederacy to be “forever free.” Later on Sep 22 1862 Lincoln sighed the preliminary emancipation nullifying the emancipation act of congress, re-enslaving slaves. It did not touch the slaves within the slave states in the union, It did not free any slave the confiscation act would not have. It was a conservative reaction to the radical abolitionist in congress.

“The proclamation had as its purpose and effect the checking of the radical [abolitionist] program”
-Lerone Bennett JR Forced into Glory Abraham Lincolns White dream


The D.C emancipation bill in 1862 was given to Lincoln who than held on to it for two days so a friend from KY could leave D.C with his two slaves. Lincoln regretted the intimidate emancipation of D.C slaves instead he wanted gradual release because “That now families would at once be deprived of cooks, stable boys and their protectors without any provision for them.”

“When he entered his presidency... that before his term of office would expire, he would be hailed as “The great emancipator” he would have treated the statement as equal one of his jokes”
-John Hume The Abolitionist NY 1905


The 13th Amendment And The 13th Amendment You Have Never Heard Of

The original 13th amendment was called the Corwin amendment, one that Lincoln pushed to get passed. It would forever allow slavery in America and would make it unconstitutional for the federal government to abolish it.

No amendment shall be made to the Constitution which will authorize or give to Congress the power to abolish or interfere, within any State,, with the domestic institutions thereof, including that of persons held to labor or service by the laws of said State.

In his first inaugural address Lincoln stated on the Corwin amendment

“Holding such a provision to now be implied constitutional law, I have no objection to its being made express and irrevocable".
-Abraham Lincoln


He then sent a letter to the governor of each state transmitting the approved amendment for what he hoped would be ratification and noting that his predecessor, President James Buchanan, had also endorsed it. He told New York Senator William Seward, who would become his secretary of state, to push the amendment through the U.S. Senate. He also instructed Seward to get a federal law passed that would repeal the personal liberty laws in some of the Northern states that were used by those states to nullify the federal Fugitive Slave Act, which Lincoln strongly supported.

“Lincoln’s first inaugural address, delivered on March 4, 1861, is probably the most powerful defense of slavery ever made by an American politician. In the speech Lincoln denies having any intention to interfere with Southern slavery; supports the federal Fugitive Slave Clause of the Constitution, which compelled citizens of non-slave states to capture runaway slaves; and also supported a constitutional amendment known as the Corwin Amendment that would have prohibited the federal government from ever interfering in Southern slavery, thereby enshrining it explicitly in the text of the U.S. Constitution.”
-Thomas Dilorenzo


Today's 13th amendment that abolishes slavery Lincoln had less to do with, This is from Spielberg's Upside-Down History: The Myth of Lincoln and the Thirteenth Amendment

“Harvard University Professor David H. Donald, the recipient of several Pulitzer prizes for his historical writings, including a biography of Lincoln. David Donald is the preeminent Lincoln scholar of our time on page 545 of his magnus opus, Lincoln, Donald notes that Lincoln did discuss the Thirteenth Amendment with two members of Congress – James M. Ashley of Ohio and James S. Rollins of Missouri. But if he used "means of persuading congressmen to vote for the Thirteeth Amendment," the theme of the Spielberg movie, "his actions are not recorded. Conclusions about the President's role rested on gossip . . . Moreover, there is not a shred of evidence that even one Democratic member of Congress changed his vote on the Thirteenth Amendment (which had previously been defeated) because of Lincoln's actions. Donald documents that Lincoln was told that some New Jersey Democrats could possibly be persuaded to vote for the amendment "if he could persuade [Senator] Charles Sumner to drop a bill to regulate the Camden & Amboy [New Jersey] Railroad, but he declined to intervene". "One New Jersey Democrat," writes David Donald, "well known as a lobbyist for the Camden & Amboy, who had voted against the amendment in July, did abstain in the final vote, but it cannot be proved that Lincoln influenced his change". Thus, according to the foremost authority on Lincoln, there is no evidence at all that Lincoln influenced even a single vote in the U.S. House of Representatives”.Lincoln late in the war being pressured to support the 13th amendment from abolitionist within his party also supported the amendment.

Shortly before his death Lincoln said of the 13th amendment “He never would have done it, if he had not been compelled by necessary to do it, to maintain the union”. Missouri abolitionist John Hume said of Lincoln “The president was in constant opposition” to the abolitionist movement of Chase, Sumner, Stevens, Greeley and others.

Send Them Back To Africa

"What I would most desire would be the separation of the white and black races,"
-Abraham Lincoln Collected Works of Abraham Lincoln, vol. 2, p. 521 17 July 1858

“If all earthly power were given to me...my first impulse would be to free all the slaves, and send them to Liberia, to their own native land”
-Abraham Lincoln 1854

 “I have said that the separation of the races is the only perfect preventive of amalgamation . . . . such separation must be effected by colonization” And, “Let us be brought to believe it is morally right, and . . . favorable to . . . our interest, to transfer the African to his native clime”
-Abraham Lincoln collective works


Lincoln allocated millions of federal dollars to be used for his African colonization plan to send the future freed slaves back to Africa. He either wanted them deported or in their own all black state. While in the White House he held a meeting with free blacks, he asked them to lead by example for future freed slaves and go to Africa. He stated to them

"You and we are different races. We have between us a broader difference than exists between almost any other two races. Whether it is right or wrong I need not discuss, but this physical difference is a great disadvantage to us both, as I think your race suffers very greatly, many of them by living among us, while ours suffer from your presence.... It is better for us both, therefore, to be separated."
-Abraham Lincoln, speech to a group of black freedmen in Washington D.C., August 1862


As a member of the Illinois legislature Lincoln urged the legislature "to appropriate money for colonization in order to remove Negroes from the state and prevent miscegenation" 1853 Lincoln gave a speeches to the Springfield colonization society whose goal was to send blacks back to Africa. Lincoln said his colonization plan would “free slaveholders from the troublesome presence of free Negroes.” When pushing for his colonization plan [that he admitted would be difficult] he said “Where there is a will there is a way” that he would push because of a “moral sense and self interest”.

“On no other matter did he so far extend his presidential leadership...one can hardly find any subject on which Lincoln argued and pleaded more constantly than on this”
-J.G Randall Lincoln historian


His plan called for three major parts. Gradual emancipation, compensation, [for slave owners] and finally colonization to Africa or south America. After the emancipation proclamation Lincoln made clear deportation was connected with emancipation. His Friend Henry Whitney said there was nothing besides preserving the union, that Lincoln felt more important. Friend and bodyguard Ward Lamon said Lincoln “Zealously and persistent devised plans for the deportation of the negro.” Others said he was “persistent” “Motivated” and “wished to send the Negros away.”

“Following the preliminary proclamation, and as part of the plan. Was the deportation and colonization of the colored race”
-Gideon Welles Diary NY 1911


In 1861 Lincoln tried to pay $500 to the northern slave states for each slave to be colonized within the USA. In his first state of the union address he suggested free blacks be included in his colonization plan when he said “ It might be well to consider, too, whether the free colored people already in the United States could not, so far as individuals may desire, be included in such colonization.” On Dec 1 1862 Lincoln called for three constitutional amendments for gradual emancipation, compensation and colonization. Compensation to owners so long as they freed slaves by 1900. On Dec 31 1862 Lincoln signed a contract to send 500 American born Negroes to an island of the cost of Hati. It ended disastrous for the negroes 150 of them died, the rest were brought back to America.

“Mr Lincoln is quite a genuine Representative of American prejudiced and negro hatred and far more concerned for the preservation of slavery...Mr Lincoln is urging his colonization scheme.. shows his bigotry his pride of race and contempt for negroes”
-Fredrick Douglass The Life and Writings of Fredrick Douglass


What African American historian Bennett calls Lincolns “white dream” was his work as president to deport all blacks from America. Until his death Lincoln negotiated with great Britain and others to deport the would be freed slaves.

See
Colonization After Emancipation: Lincoln and the Movement for Black Resettlement by  Phillip W. Magness
http://www.amazon.com/Colonization-After-Emancipation-Movement-Resettlement/dp/0826219098
Forced into Glory: Abraham Lincoln's White Dream by Lerone Bennett, Jr
http://www.amazon.com/Forced-into-Glory-Abraham-Lincolns/dp/0874850851


“But the book Colonization After Emancipation by Phillip Magness and Sebastian Page, drawing on documents from the British and American national archives, proved that Lincoln was hard at work until his dying day plotting with Secretary of State William Seward the deportation of all the freed slaves. The documents produced in this book show Lincoln’s negotiations with European governments to purchase land in Central America and elsewhere for “colonization.” They were even counting how many ships it would take to complete the task.”
-The Lincoln Myth: Ideological Cornerstone of the America Empire Thomas DiLorenzo

“His belief that the white and colored races could not occupy the same nation in peace”
-Henery Whitney Life on the circuit with Lincoln 1892

---------------
“The CSA congress can have no such power over states officers. The state governments are an essential part of the political system, upon the separate and independent sovereignty of the states the foundation of the confederacy”
-1864 Virginia supremeCourt

Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 3550

Re: Abraham Lincoln was a Life Long Abolitionist- Responding to PC History
Posted on: 12/9/2017 10:30:03 AM
Hi 1st Vermonter,

On another thread, you mentioned that you don't like Lincoln, I hope you are not taking a one sided perspective!? It's easy to criticize him, but you have to look at the perspective of the times! At this point in our history most Americans both north & south did not think that the Africa descendant negro was the equal of the European descendants! Lincoln is only a man of the times, his number 1 goal, after southern states seceded was to save the Union! You have to admit he was put into the ultimate crisis, not an easy position! Perhaps the most volatile in our history, Civil War, a fight for our countries very existence, He was overall a good and decent man, who like any other president made mistakes. But under the circumstances he did save the Unity of America! He did win re-election in 1864, if his constituent's in the North didn't think so, he would not have won! I think your being to hard on him? Don't you have anything good to say about him?? He lived a very hard, & tragic life, including making the ultimate sacrifice! Granted most of what you point out might have some basis, but suspending the Writ of Habeas Corpus around Washington DC had to be done to protect against tranny to the government, & creating Liberia to give freed slaves their own country was a prevalent option at that time. Much of what Lincoln did was reacting to crisis situations that he did his best to solve! People always complain, but can you name any contemporary leaders at this time that you can say would have made better presidents than Lincoln?? The man was overall loved, look how they lined his funeral train after his tragic assassination! He was loved then, as he is loved now! Not evidently by all, but by most! It is said that if he could have presided over re-construction it would have gone much more justly, & less violently? He did save the Union with the GAR, he also did institute the Emancipation Proclamation, and begin the long process of equality in America!

Don't paint a cloud over this overall good & decent man!
Regards,
Dave

I think most Americans in the future will always view him as a great president, no critics can change this, despite everything!?

BTW; I bet Vermont looks very Christmassy covered in snow for the Holidays, just curious are you a native Vermonter?
---------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

1stvermont
Vermont, VT, USA
top 50
E-4 Specialist


Posts: 93

Re: Abraham Lincoln was a Life Long Abolitionist- Responding to PC History
Posted on: 12/9/2017 11:17:35 AM

Quote:
Hi 1st Vermonter,

On another thread, you mentioned that you don't like Lincoln, I hope you are not taking a one sided perspective!? It's easy to criticize him, but you have to look at the perspective of the times! At this point in our history most Americans both north & south did not think that the Africa descendant negro was the equal of the European descendants! Lincoln is only a man of the times, his number 1 goal, after southern states seceded was to save the Union! You have to admit he was put into the ultimate crisis, not an easy position! Perhaps the most volatile in our history, Civil War, a fight for our countries very existence, He was overall a good and decent man, who like any other president made mistakes. But under the circumstances he did save the Unity of America! He did win re-election in 1864, if his constituent's in the North didn't think so, he would not have won! I think your being to hard on him? Don't you have anything good to say about him?? He lived a very hard, & tragic life, including making the ultimate sacrifice! Granted most of what you point out might have some basis, but suspending the Writ of Habeas Corpus around Washington DC had to be done to protect against tranny to the government, & creating Liberia to give freed slaves their own country was a prevalent option at that time. Much of what Lincoln did was reacting to crisis situations that he did his best to solve! People always complain, but can you name any contemporary leaders at this time that you can say would have made better presidents than Lincoln?? The man was overall loved, look how they lined his funeral train after his tragic assassination! He was loved then, as he is loved now! Not evidently by all, but by most! It is said that if he could have presided over re-construction it would have gone much more justly, & less violently? He did save the Union with the GAR, he also did institute the Emancipation Proclamation, and begin the long process of equality in America!

Don't paint a cloud over this overall good & decent man!
Regards,
Dave

I think most Americans in the future will always view him as a great president, no critics can change this, despite everything!?



--Michigan Dave


I think your post better fits on my other thread on Lincoln. But thanks for the post and i agree my posts are not fair and leave out the good in Lincoln, but that is by design. Simply because i think we are given a mythical version of a historical person. So i try to counter the mythical parts with historical parts. I agree Lincoln was a man of his times, however he is all to often portrayed as someone leading us out of those times into the light, this is especially true in regards to race in america. I dont see Lincoln as a man thrown in hard times but a creator of those hard times, not the savior, but the destroyer of the union. He simply used force to undermined the declaration, the Constitution and the union, and today is praised for it. That all can be found on my other thread. It is hard to feel bad for a person for supposed having a hard life [much of it myth] who than did the same to millions of americans yet far worse who he made "making the ultimate sacrifice" where as he had no choice. did not do so willigley [as did many southerners], he was murdered. Yes he was reelected as most americans could not vote and his tyrannical polices cheated the election [see other thread] and even still had 20,000 voted opposite in the right areas, the democrats would have won in the north. The only fair election he won in 1860 he won 39% and many were european immigrants socialist from the failed revolutions of 1848[other thread]. Also there were 4 parties running. I could name many in my opionon that would have done far better, any of the major candidates in 1860 for starters. He did not save the union but destroyed it, that is my biggest objection to him. The EP is addressed in my op for what it really was not its mystical understanding today of it. I do agree most americans will view him as the greatest, they are educated in a system devoted to it to justify itself. Ever wonder why education [unconstitutionally] controlled by the state started during the civil war?


On his assassination I agree that is where the myth started.

“Lincoln had few disciples and thousands of critics. After the assassination he had few critics and thousands of disciples, and it became a duty, it became public necessity to get right with Mr. Lincoln and the myth”
-Forced into Glory Abraham Lincolns White dream by Lerone Bennett


His assassination came at a time when the country needed to unite not fraction. Not only does the death of someone often enhance their popularity, but the timing of Lincolns more so.  The end of the war was at hand and the nation had to be kept together. Support of Lincoln is what united the country regardless if they supported him before. One one case a congressmen had written a speech to blast Lincoln for all his faults, after his death he rewrote the speech in support of the great president Lincoln.

---------------
“The CSA congress can have no such power over states officers. The state governments are an essential part of the political system, upon the separate and independent sovereignty of the states the foundation of the confederacy”
-1864 Virginia supremeCourt

1stvermont
Vermont, VT, USA
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E-4 Specialist


Posts: 93

Re: Abraham Lincoln was a Life Long Abolitionist- Responding to PC History
Posted on: 12/9/2017 11:25:16 AM
Here are some of the reasons i believe the myth of Lincoln continues today.

Political

“The Lincoln myth is the ideological cornerstone of big government in America...The Lincoln legend has helped teach our children blind obeidance to the state”
-Thomas J Dilorenzo The Real Lincoln


This above quote of course helps the federal government expand and helps the major political parties and interests groups. Anyone who seeks to expand government [republicans to the right/democrats to the left], Lincoln is the model.

Republicans 

Wish to put him in as best a light as they can so as to make the founder of their party look better. Also the republicans often view america as an empire and a military force to control the world with. “spread democracy” has been  used forright wing wars around the world to act as a police force around the world

“Lincolns dictatorial methods, and his creation of a consolidated, militaristic state, have long been the model for the American right”
-Thomas J Dilorenzo Lincoln Unmasked


Because Lincoln greatly expanded the government and its uses, the better he is presented the better that militaristic philosophy and republicans can seem.

Enslave a class of voters

Simply the myths are used to enslave a class of voters. 1940's African American Ralph Bunche argued civil war myths [including Lincoln myths] were used to “The negroes voters blind loyalty to the republican party for 67 years.” Buying black votes promising them 40 acres and a mule if they voted republican. Yet in 1867-68 blacks in northern republican states like Ohio, Michigan, Minnesota and Kansas blacks could not vote. Natives were denied the right to vote. Reconstruction was used to implace republican government to support the winning [republican] side, one way of doing so was to offer free stuff to newly freed blacks and to purchase their support. Does this sound familiar?
 
Modern Democrats 

If Lincoln our “greatest” president can ignore and violate the constitution, why cant we do the same? If he expanded government and ignored citizens liberty can we not do the same? If he transformed the government yet for the greater good for all, than so should we. Democrats and statist will love Lincoln and seek to make him an example of the moral superiority of big government and more government control.

Justify the war

“By focusing upon slavery, the bona fide story of the death of real states rights and the beginning of imperial america is overlooked...we stand naked before the awesome power to our federal master”
-Al Benson Jr and Walter Kennedy Lincolns Marxists


How do you justify 620,000 dead and destruction of the American republic? The federal government needed to justify its actions. The war was clearly not about slavery, yet after hundreds of thousands of deaths something other than tariffs and forcing people by the bayonet to be held under the federal governments control was needed. Abolitionist offered a morale purpose. So long as the government [who supports itself through public education] taught the war was over slavery and Lincoln set out to free the slaves, along with teaching a false horrific view of slavery as the greatest sin. Than it will put the government in the right no matter what violations it had done and any transformation of the government will go unseen as the real issue of the war was slavery. Anyone who would dare challenge the view is automatically a racists and disqualified.
---------------
“The CSA congress can have no such power over states officers. The state governments are an essential part of the political system, upon the separate and independent sovereignty of the states the foundation of the confederacy”
-1864 Virginia supremeCourt

OpanaPointer
St. Louis, MO, USA
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E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 750

Re: Abraham Lincoln was a Life Long Abolitionist- Responding to PC History
Posted on: 12/9/2017 12:16:38 PM
So how's things with the alt-wrong, 1stvarminter?

Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
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Posts: 3550

Re: Abraham Lincoln was a Life Long Abolitionist- Responding to PC History
Posted on: 12/9/2017 12:27:28 PM
!st,

It still seems your being pretty harsh on the man, if your goal is to prove that the simple glossing over of middle-school social studies is wrong to paint Lincoln as a Knight in Shinning Armor, your right, anyone who looks deeper into the time's history realizes that Lincoln is not the noble hero, he was pointed out to be! Still if I looked at all these things that you darkly, & one sided-ly pointed out. I would say so what? I love the man & the things he overcame to keep us as 1 country! I am convinced it was dire circumstances of the times that forced Lincoln to do the sometimes controversial things he did. I could just as easily looked at all the aspects of his presidency and point out all the good things he did, & his accomplishments and have it backed up by historians and scholars! Just curious why your on this quest to show him in such a bad light? I would bet most soldiers in the 1st Vermont would have from a majority standpoint, been for Lincoln? BTW are you a native Vermonter?? And in MHO no leader at this time could have done any better of a job keeping the US together as 1 country, if so would you say who? And why he would have been a better man under fire??

Regards,
Dave

BTW I respect your scholarly approach, I just wish you would paint both sides of the equation! Also curious why you use the CSA congress quote as part of your handle? It's obvious why I use a Lincoln quote for mine!
---------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

1stvermont
Vermont, VT, USA
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E-4 Specialist


Posts: 93

Re: Abraham Lincoln was a Life Long Abolitionist- Responding to PC History
Posted on: 12/9/2017 1:29:23 PM

Quote:
!st,

It still seems your being pretty harsh on the man, if your goal is to prove that the simple glossing over of middle-school social studies is wrong to paint Lincoln as a Knight in Shinning Armor, your right, anyone who looks deeper into the time's history realizes that Lincoln is not the noble hero, he was pointed out to be! Still if I looked at all these things that you darkly, & one sided-ly pointed out. I would say so what? I love the man & the things he overcame to keep us as 1 country! I am convinced it was dire circumstances of the times that forced Lincoln to do the sometimes controversial things he did. I could just as easily looked at all the aspects of his presidency and point out all the good things he did, & his accomplishments and have it backed up by historians and scholars! Just curious why your on this quest to show him in such a bad light? I would bet most soldiers in the 1st Vermont would have from a majority standpoint, been for Lincoln? BTW are you a native Vermonter?? And in MHO no leader at this time could have done any better of a job keeping the US together as 1 country, if so would you say who? And why he would have been a better man under fire??

Regards,
Dave

BTW I respect your scholarly approach, I just wish you would paint both sides of the equation! Also curious why you use the CSA congress quote as part of your handle? It's obvious why I use a Lincoln quote for mine!
--Michigan Dave


I dont disagree that i am not fair to him as a whole and am being harsh. If you agree his normal portrayal on the basic level of most citizens is false, than i say that is my purpose. I do not disagree that some of his tyrannical acts were because of war, but does that justify them or is that when the Constitution matters most when the federal thinks itself justified in its actions? I think our main point of disagreement lies with his saving the country. The main reason I dislike his presidency was the fact he destroyed the union and created a centralized nation.

http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/Forums/ViewPost.aspx?ForumID=19&ID=32841

I view him for his political actions most, as that is his lasting impact on america. Other than that i have few objections to the man in his time.


If you want me to say something good i will say he was funny as hell.Robertson has a great article on the wit of Abraham Lincoln, loved it.
---------------
“The CSA congress can have no such power over states officers. The state governments are an essential part of the political system, upon the separate and independent sovereignty of the states the foundation of the confederacy”
-1864 Virginia supremeCourt

Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
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Posts: 3550

Re: Abraham Lincoln was a Life Long Abolitionist- Responding to PC History
Posted on: 12/9/2017 3:02:44 PM
HI 1st VT,

Not sure what you mean by he didn't save the Union, but to say Lincoln destroyed it!!??? Could you please elaborate? You actually think Abe by himself or with others, destroyed our country? That's a new one on me?? Would you prefer he did nothing and just let the South go?? Are you a proponent of the United "Independent States" of America? Meaning that South Carolina, Alabama, & for that matter New York are all their own Independent Country like states, to govern themselves how ever they want, with a disregard of the Country as a whole?? Just guessing (could be wrong?) but I don't think your native to Vermont, and that your a proponent of the Confederacy and their ideals, which is ok? But do you then wish that we were 2 countries? And that's OK too, if you feel that way this is America after-all! But the reason I'm curious is because if you know where someone is coming from, you can follow where they are going??

The things I asked you to be fair, I will answer as if you asked me, I am glad we are a 1 Country Republic, I'm from Michigan most of my life. I don't think Lincoln destroyed our Country, just the opposite, I think he helped save it! I'm OK with states rights, but only so far as they don't weaken the United States. My GGG Grandfather Andrew was in the 1st Michigan Cavalry, & may have been involved in the capture of Jefferson Davis. I love CW History, have no problem with Confederate History, statues, flags, what ever! I think the Civil War & it's timeframe did the most to shape our country as it is today! I really enjoy going down south & visiting Antebellum Sites, Plantations & Battlefields, and have always been treated gracefully, & friendly by the people I meet down there! I'm not a bias 1 sided Yankee I know a majority of Confederates never owned slaves, but I do think the "Planter Elite" did to some extent incite them to rebel, & if they knew the consequences & the price they would pay they wouldn't have followed the Fire-eaters to war! But on the other hand they didn't have 20-20 vision & hind-site, so the CW was probably in- evitable! Not Lincoln's fault at all!? Remember Lee thought it was a big mistake to secede!

Peace, & Regards,
MD
---------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

1stvermont
Vermont, VT, USA
top 50
E-4 Specialist


Posts: 93

Re: Abraham Lincoln was a Life Long Abolitionist- Responding to PC History
Posted on: 12/9/2017 4:04:36 PM

Quote:
HI 1st VT,

Not sure what you mean by he didn't save the Union, but to say Lincoln destroyed it!!??? Could you please elaborate? You actually think Abe by himself or with others, destroyed our country? That's a new one on me?? Would you prefer he did nothing and just let the South go?? Are you a proponent of the United "Independent States" of America? Meaning that South Carolina, Alabama, & for that matter New York are all their own Independent Country like states, to govern themselves how ever they want, with a disregard of the Country as a whole?? Just guessing (could be wrong?) but I don't think your native to Vermont, and that your a proponent of the Confederacy and their ideals, which is ok? But do you then wish that we were 2 countries? And that's OK too, if you feel that way this is America after-all! But the reason I'm curious is because if you know where someone is coming from, you can follow where they are going??

The things I asked you to be fair, I will answer as if you asked me, I am glad we are a 1 Country Republic, I'm from Michigan most of my life. I don't think Lincoln destroyed our Country, just the opposite, I think he helped save it! I'm OK with states rights, but only so far as they don't weaken the United States. My GGG Grandfather Andrew was in the 1st Michigan Cavalry, & may have been involved in the capture of Jefferson Davis. I love CW History, have no problem with Confederate History, statues, flags, what ever! I think the Civil War & it's timeframe did the most to shape our country as it is today! I really enjoy going down south & visiting Antebellum Sites, Plantations & Battlefields, and have always been treated gracefully, & friendly by the people I meet down there! I'm not a bias 1 sided Yankee I know a majority of Confederates never owned slaves, but I do think the "Planter Elite" did to some extent incite them to rebel, & if they knew the consequences & the price they would pay they wouldn't have followed the Fire-eaters to war! But on the other hand they didn't have 20-20 vision & hind-site, so the CW was probably in- evitable! Not Lincoln's fault at all!? Remember Lee thought it was a big mistake to secede!

Peace, & Regards,
MD
--Michigan Dave



sure and thanks for tacking an interest. I am a native Vermonter though i am seeking a move south.I prefer the original union of states of the founders as they understood it. Everything of what the union was and how it worked as both a nation and a collection of states can be found here in this thread under "from union to empire"

Did Lincoln save the Constitution? Responding to the PC Version of History
http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com/Forums/ViewPost.aspx?ForumID=19&ID=32841


I like the south because they wanted to continue that union of states. I would rather the split not have happened at all. But since it did, i would rather the south left to go in peace, i am big on the declaration as well.


Great stuff in your post and i agree with most all of it. I simply disagree that Lincoln saved the union rather i say he destroyed it as i argue in my above thread "Did Lincoln save the Constitution? Responding to the PC Version of History". I also say he is at fault, as many were.


---------------
“The CSA congress can have no such power over states officers. The state governments are an essential part of the political system, upon the separate and independent sovereignty of the states the foundation of the confederacy”
-1864 Virginia supremeCourt

jthlmnn
Milwaukee, WI, USA
top 40
E-4 Corporal


Posts: 191

Re: Abraham Lincoln was a Life Long Abolitionist- Responding to PC History
Posted on: 1/28/2018 1:49:54 PM

Quote:
“Lincoln is theology, not historiology. He is a faith, he is a church, he is a religion, and he has his own priests and acolytes, most of whom . . . are passionately opposed to anybody telling the truth about him . . . with rare exceptions, you can’t believe what any major Lincoln scholar tells you about Abraham Lincoln and race.”
–Lerone Bennett, Jr., Forced into Glory, p. 114



Quote:
On his assassination I agree that is where the myth started.

“Lincoln had few disciples and thousands of critics. After the assassination he had few critics and thousands of disciples, and it became a duty, it became public necessity to get right with Mr. Lincoln and the myth”
-Forced into Glory Abraham Lincolns White dream by Lerone Bennett

1stvermont


Here is another example of the uncritical use of a secondary source. Mr. Bennett is definitely one of the many critics of Abraham Lincoln. How valid are his criticisms and conclusions, though? Historian James J. McPherson reviewed the book cited by 1stvermont. In brief, he finds serious flaws, including factual inaccuracies, distortions of interpretation, and distortion by omission. After reading the review, I would approach any work by Mr. Bennett with caution. I would verify any stated facts or quotations, and then exercise my own judgement as to whether they support his stated conclusions.

While I disagree with Mr. McPherson on some things, I respect his expertise, integrity, and his opinion. For those who might be interested in reading the full review, it may be found here: [Read More]

Yours,

JohnT

jthlmnn
Milwaukee, WI, USA
top 40
E-4 Corporal


Posts: 191

Re: Abraham Lincoln was a Life Long Abolitionist- Responding to PC History
Posted on: 1/28/2018 2:55:27 PM

Quote:
“Lincoln was not either our man or our model...in his interests, associations, thoughts and in his prejudices, he was a white man. Entirely devoted to the welfare of white men”
-Fredrick Douglass speech given years after Lincolns Assassination


First, let's get the quote right:


Quote:
“Abraham Lincoln was not, in the fullest sense of the word, either our man or our model. In his interests, in his associations, in his habits of thought and in his prejudices, he was a white man.

He was preeminently the white man's president, entirely devoted to the welfare of white men.” (Emphasis mine, to highlight missing portions)




Here, 1stvermont provides an example of quoting out of context. The quotation cited above comes from a speech Frederick Douglass delivered at the 1876 dedication of the Freedman's Monument, in Washington, D.C. While it is true that Douglass' speech was not a fawning hagiography, neither was it a condemnation nor a negation of Lincoln's anti-slavery attitude. Frederick Douglass instead captured the complexity and development of Lincoln's opinions within the context of pre-war and during the war America. The essence of the speech was that Lincoln rose above the flaws which marked his earlier days, and eventually guided the nation towards the abolition of slavery. I find the speech to be a balanced, sober retrospective on the life of a man (not a saint, much less a demi-god) whom he deeply respects.

The speech, in its entirety, is reprinted in William Safire's book, Lend Me Your Ears: Great Speeches in History, pp.180-185. Online, it can be found here: [Read More]

Yours,

JohnT

Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 3550

Re: Abraham Lincoln was a Life Long Abolitionist- Responding to PC History
Posted on: 1/28/2018 3:39:50 PM
JT,

I agree with your take on James M Mcpherson, I love listening to him

& Prof. Gary Gallagher debate topics like this one! Davis, & Lincoln, War Presidents!

[Read More]

Indeed very competent!

Regards,
Dave
---------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

scoucer
Berlin, Germany
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 2218

Re: Abraham Lincoln was a Life Long Abolitionist- Responding to PC History
Posted on: 1/28/2018 6:06:03 PM
I think Dilorenzo should have stuck to economics because he is a lousy historian. No, he is one of those debunked "Austrian economics" fanatics. Nevermind he´s probably raking in the money on his gigs.

Trevor
---------------
`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie

Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.

Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 3550

Re: Abraham Lincoln was a Life Long Abolitionist- Responding to PC History
Posted on: 1/30/2018 9:09:06 AM
In a nut shell would you say Lincoln's #1 goal was to save the Union? And it appears he did, is that part of his legacy!?

[Read More]

MD
---------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

jthlmnn
Milwaukee, WI, USA
top 40
E-4 Corporal


Posts: 191

Re: Abraham Lincoln was a Life Long Abolitionist- Responding to PC History
Posted on: 2/5/2018 8:06:11 PM

Quote:
In a nut shell would you say Lincoln's #1 goal was to save the Union? And it appears he did, is that part of his legacy!?

[Read More]

MD
--Michigan Dave


Consider that not much could be done about slavery in the 11 secessionist states if the Confederacy had been successfully established. Add to that the very real prospect of continued conflicts regarding the western territories. The containment/ending of slavery depended on preserving the union. "Union" had to be the top priority.

Yours,

JohnT

Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 3550

Re: Abraham Lincoln was a Life Long Abolitionist- Responding to PC History
Posted on: 2/6/2018 9:07:03 AM
JT, & 1st Vermont,

What do you think about Lincoln suspending of "habeas corpus"!?

[Read More]

Was that stretching his presidential powers??

Regards,
MD
---------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

jthlmnn
Milwaukee, WI, USA
top 40
E-4 Corporal


Posts: 191

Re: Abraham Lincoln was a Life Long Abolitionist- Responding to PC History
Posted on: 2/7/2018 12:47:24 PM

Quote:
JT, & 1st Vermont,

What do you think about Lincoln suspending of "habeas corpus"!?

[Read More]

Was that stretching his presidential powers??

Regards,
MD
--Michigan Dave


Let's start with the pertinent constitutional provision.

The Privilege of the Writ of Habeas Corpus shall not be suspended, unless when in Cases of Rebellion or Invasion the public Safety may require it.
Article I, Section 9, Clause 2


That there was a rebellion happening goes without question. What can be questioned and debated, on a case-by-case basis, is whether "the public safety" required it. When doing so, I suggest that we keep in mind that these were unchartered waters. The U.S. had been invaded during the War of 1812, and with invasions, because they involve outside forces, suspension of habeas corpus is more easily justified and accepted. Rebellion, which by definition involves fellow citizens, on the scale of that initiated in 1861 with the bombardment of Fort Sumter was unprecedented. In general, I believe that Lincoln was well withing his constitutional authority, and exercised the suspension judiciously. Certain generals were more zealous in utilizing the suspension, and here Lincoln often served to mitigate the impact by quickly releasing those detained.

Yours,

JohnT

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
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E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 7194

Re: Abraham Lincoln was a Life Long Abolitionist- Responding to PC History
Posted on: 2/7/2018 1:44:19 PM
Hello JohnT,

Canada has a War Measures Act that allows the government to suspend certain civil liberties when warranted. It was used, improperly I feel, in 1970 when invoked by PM Pierre Elliott Trudeau in response to an anticipated insurrection in Québec.

But there was legislation that allowed the cabinet to take measures without approval of Parliament.

It has since been amended and limited and is now called the Emergencies Act.

But there was legislation in place, flawed as it was.

Did Lincoln have legislation available that allowed him to suspend habeas corpus or is that an action totally within the purview of the President without consultation and approval from Congress?

Now I realize that it was war time but were there protests either from the people or in Congress over this measure?


Oh, I have to get this in.

War of 1812? Invasion of US was retaliatory and defensive.

jthlmnn
Milwaukee, WI, USA
top 40
E-4 Corporal


Posts: 191

Re: Abraham Lincoln was a Life Long Abolitionist- Responding to PC History
Posted on: 2/9/2018 3:02:46 PM

Quote:
Hello JohnT,

Canada has a War Measures Act that allows the government to suspend certain civil liberties when warranted. It was used, improperly I feel, in 1970 when invoked by PM Pierre Elliott Trudeau in response to an anticipated insurrection in Québec.

But there was legislation that allowed the cabinet to take measures without approval of Parliament.

It has since been amended and limited and is now called the Emergencies Act.

But there was legislation in place, flawed as it was.

Did Lincoln have legislation available that allowed him to suspend habeas corpus or is that an action totally within the purview of the President without consultation and approval from Congress?

Now I realize that it was war time but were there protests either from the people or in Congress over this measure?


Oh, I have to get this in.

War of 1812? Invasion of US was retaliatory and defensive.
--George


It is a power granted to congress. When first invoked by Lincoln, in April 1861, congress was not in session. Lincoln acted on his own initiative and congress granted its approval when it came back in session, in July.

Yes, there was an immediate and continue uproar, especially from Northern Democrats. This first suspension also resulted in a case before the Supreme Court, ex parte Merryman. The court, led by Chief Justice Roger Taney, granted a writ of habeas corpus to Mr. Merryman. The military commander detaining Mr. Merryman refused to acknowledge the court's order, and Merryman was detained for about 7 weeks before being released without charges ever being filed.

More problematic was the 1862 suspension, which was applied not to a specific location for specific reasons (like the 1861 suspension), but applied nation-wide, and for some rather vaguely described actions. Issued by Secretary of War Stanton, it applied to anyone


Quote:
"..."engaged, by act, speech, or writing, in discouraging volunteer enlistments, or in any way giving aid and comfort to the enemy, or in any other disloyal practice against the United States..."


The very broadness of the declaration (especially "disloyal practice") led to abuses around the country. Local officials were often overzealous or used it to settle personal scores. I've seen estimates of people detained under this declaration ranging from 10,000-15,000.

With the Habeas Corpus Act of 1863, congress granted the president the authority, for the duration of the rebellion, to suspend the writ whenever it was deemed necessary. [Read More]

In judging Lincoln, some will point to this as proof that he was a tyrant. While I would say that he went too far, I believe that other actions of his contradict the label of "tyrant". (His refusal to even consider calling off the 1864 election, and his willingness to accept electoral defeat, for example.) In my view, he stands as one of several presidents who, during a time of war, succumbed to the urge to trade some liberty for security.

Yours,

JohnT





OpanaPointer
St. Louis, MO, USA
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 750

Re: Abraham Lincoln was a Life Long Abolitionist- Responding to PC History
Posted on: 2/11/2018 3:09:37 PM
I think Wilson was more oppressive than Lincoln by a country mile.

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