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anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
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Re: ...to hide the slain...
Posted on: 10/12/2017 3:40:38 AM
Henry VIII was away fighting in France and the Scots, honouring the Auld Alliance with those pesky French, had invaded England with a well-equipped army of 28,000 and found themselves confronted by a hastily-assembled English force of 20,000, led by the wily and experienced Earl of Surrey.

And here lay the problem. James had brought his big siege guns, good for making dents in English castles such as Norham but little use on a battlefield as they took 40 minutes to reload, whereas the English cannons were smaller and could fire every two minutes. And they did, pouring shot after shot into the Scots ranks.


"To take arms against a sea of troubles,
And by opposing end them?????"


[Read More]

Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

Phil andrade
London, UK
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Posts: 2535

Re: ...to hide the slain...
Posted on: 10/12/2017 5:48:28 AM
That should be Henry VIII, not VII, surely ?

I like the story of Flodden in so far as it demonstrates the skill and nerve of Catherine of Aragon, who had learned much about the science of warfare from her Mum and Dad, Isabella and Ferdinand .

She deserves a lot of credit for organising the defeat of the Scots.

Frailty, thy name is woman ! blurted out Hamlet.

Not in this case.

Henry was probably jealous of his wife's success....

Regards, Phil
---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 6039
http:// 82.44.47.99
Re: ...to hide the slain...
Posted on: 10/12/2017 6:28:43 AM
Of curse it was-how careless of me.This a copy of the letter dhesent to her Husband King Henry VIII in France-jut for the Record


"Sir,
My lord Havard [Howard] hath sent me a letter open to your grace within one of mine, by the which ye shall see at length the great victory that our Lord hath sent your subjects in your absence: and for this cause it is no need herein to trouble your grace with long writing; but to my thinking this battle hath been to your grace and all your realm the greatest honour that could be, and more than should you win all the crown of Fraunce: thanked be God of it, and I am sure your grace forgetteth not to do this, which shall be cause to send you many more such great victories, as I trust he shall do.
My husband, for hastiness with Rogecrosse, I could not send your grace the piece of the king of Scots’ coat, which

John Glyn now bringeth; in this your grace shall see, how I can keep my promise: sending you for your banners a king’s coat. I thought to send himself to you, but our Englishmen’s hearts would not suffer it: it should have been better for him to have been in peace than to have this reward; all that God sendeth is for the best. My lord of Surrey, my Henry, would fain know your pleasure in the burying of the king of Scots’ body, for he hath written to me so; with the next messenger your grace’s pleasure may be heroin known; and with this I make an end, praying God to send you home shortly : for without this no joy here can be accomplished: and for the same I pray and now go I to our lady at Walsingham, that I promised so long ago to see.

At Woborne the 16 day of September"

However it was James's decision to relinquish the high ground which he held,for the reason that hiss guns would not bear; that brought him inside the range of Surrey's guns and his downfall.

Regards

Jim


---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 6039
http:// 82.44.47.99
Re: ...to hide the slain...
Posted on: 10/12/2017 10:05:08 AM
Another grave mistake made by the Scots- was placing their officers in the front line a la Bannockburn, which made them most vulnerable and inevitably killed, contrasting this loss of their nobility with the English nobility who took their stand with the reserves at the rear.

The English generals stayed behind the lines in Renaissance style. The loss of so many Scottish officers meant there was no one to co-ordinate a retreat which became a rout.

Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

Phil andrade
London, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Moderator
Posts: 2535

Re: ...to hide the slain...
Posted on: 10/12/2017 12:20:11 PM
Jim,

Didn't the English prevail in hand to hand combat because they had a weapon that was better suited to close quarters....the long Scottish pikes were unwieldy, whereas the English possessed a kind of spear adapted with a blade that could thrust and slash with lethal effect ?

Regards, Phil
---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 6039
http:// 82.44.47.99
Re: ...to hide the slain...
Posted on: 10/12/2017 1:13:07 PM
Sorry Phil-did not know but Wiki appears to know


Quote:
An official English diplomatic report issued by Brian Tuke noted the Scots' iron spears and their initial "very good order after the German fashion", but concluded that "the English halberdiers decided the whole affair, so that in the battle the bows and the Scottish ordnance were of little use.


Will you pick one next which would better fit the caption.????

Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

Phil andrade
London, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Moderator
Posts: 2535

Re: ...to hide the slain...
Posted on: 10/13/2017 3:09:16 AM
Solferino...now there's a battle that I could pick to follow on from the caption ; but there is an extreme caveat....the slain here were not hidden, but put on display in a giant ossuary.

I visited it once, and have to confess that I found the experience more than macabre.

Thousands and thousands of skeletons - mainly of French soldiers, I am lead to believe - are arrayed ; there are multitudes of skulls and skeletal fragments stacked to convey maximum impact.

This, it must be remembered, is not a medieval battle, but a relatively modern one, fought a couple of years before the start of the American Civil War.

So much for hiding the slain.

Regards, Phil
---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 6039
http:// 82.44.47.99
Re: ...to hide the slain...
Posted on: 10/13/2017 4:01:16 AM
G Phil-can't say that I know anything about this hideous confrontation but have gathered up some facts to expand the subject


The Battle of Solferino in Jume 1859 would have a long-term effect on the future conduct of military actions.

The battle was a particularly gruelling one, lasting over nine hours and resulting in over 2,386 Austrian troops killed with 10,807 wounded and 8,638 missing or captured.

The Allied armies (French and Sardinian) also suffered a total of 2,492 killed, 12,512 wounded and 2,922 captured or missing.

Reports of wounded and dying soldiers being shot or bayonetted on both sides added to the horror.

Witnessed the aftermath of the battle were motivated by the horrific suffering of wounded soldiers left on the battlefield to begin a campaign that would eventually result in the Geneva Conventions and the establishment of the International Red Cross.

Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

Phil andrade
London, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Moderator
Posts: 2535

Re: ...to hide the slain...
Posted on: 10/13/2017 6:33:08 AM
Jim,

Look at those casualty figures.

To what extent do they hide the slain ?

There are said to be the remains of seven thousand dead in the ossuary alone at Solferino....the implication is that those posted as killed in the casualty returns represent only a portion of the actual number of fatalities .

Fewer than five thousand were officially posted as killed, but there must have been thousands who succumbed to their wounds or, having been posted as missing, were left dead or dying on the field and were not properly accounted for.

I often wonder about the way casualty statistics can hide the slain : sometimes, I daresay, as a matter of policy, but more often, I suspect , because it was so difficult to find out what happened to so many soldiers. In some battles the casualty totals are accurate, but the categorisation within is misleading.

Take the British casualties in the desperate battles in France and Flanders in March and April, 1918, for example. This will impinge on you personally, since your grandfather was among the slain. In the official reckoning there were just over three hundred thousand battle casualties suffered by the BEF in those two months ; of these, twenty eight thousand - just under ten per cent - were posted as killed. By the time that the died of wounds were factored in, and, of course, the missing who were subsequently acknowledged as dead, the real total was more than double the initial return of killed.

It's significant that this is not so apparent among the officers : their deaths were more meticulously accounted, their role more conspicuous and the proportion of their casualties posted as missing lower.

What I observe here is also, apparently, true of other battles in other wars : quite markedly so in the American Civil War and definitely the case at Solferino.

The region around Lake Garda is spectacularly lovely, the food and wine correspondingly so. I enjoy going there and have some beloved pals nearby.

The grisly relics of battle make a strange contrast !

Regards, Phil
---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 6039
http:// 82.44.47.99
Re: ...to hide the slain...
Posted on: 10/13/2017 7:17:24 AM
"The battle was a particularly gruelling one, lasting over nine hours and resulting in over 2,386 Austrian troops killed with 10,807 wounded and 8,638 missing or captured.

The Allied armies (French and Sardinian) also suffered a total of 2,492 killed, 12,512 wounded and 2,922 captured or missing"


10,807 Austrian wounded and 8638 POW or missing
12,512 Allied wounded and 2922 POW or missing

For a start I would say that there were few POWs; and the Missing were most likely Dead-say 10,000.

Of the 25,000 wounded-would it be reasonable to assume that more than half of these died or were shot or bayonneted--say a further 15000 dead.

So now we have approximately 30,000 dead instead of 4800.

What an unholy mess-an bloody charnel house !!!! "Stiffen the sinew,summon up the blood----"



[Read More]


Regards

Jim



---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

Phil andrade
London, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Moderator
Posts: 2535

Re: ...to hide the slain...
Posted on: 10/13/2017 7:32:28 AM
Jim,

It's my guess that many of the missing at Solferino were taken prisoner.

Many went off the radar as they slipped away to seek refuge ; more still were shocked and wandered around for a while....but, yes, of course, a significant number were dead.

Regards, Phil
---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 6039
http:// 82.44.47.99
Re: ...to hide the slain...
Posted on: 10/13/2017 7:45:44 AM
So- I was wrong; but surprised at the taking of prisoners in that battle. -How may dead were there-in your opinion.????



NB.The CWG Commission had also been mandated to individually commemorate each soldier who had no known grave, which amounted to 315,000 in France and Belgium alone.

Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

Phil andrade
London, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Moderator
Posts: 2535

Re: ...to hide the slain...
Posted on: 10/13/2017 11:16:49 AM
Jim,

The total number of deaths attributable to the Battle of Solferino ? Here's my guesswork.

Total confirmed killed : 2,492 + 2,386 = 4,878

There were 23,319 wounded from both sides : these were admitted to hospitals, recovered from the field, and would not have been done to death as they lay.
In the Crimean war, and in the American Civil War, about 14% of the wounded died after admission ( that's twice the rate for WW1 ). I would imagine that the conditions at Solferino were, if anything, worse. It was an encounter battle, denying the necessary medical preparations. So I would venture an estimate of one in six dying from wounds, at most one in five. This implies four thousand or so.

The big problem is the missing, who numbered 11,560. Most, I would think, were prisoners. Many would have been left wounded on the field, where they died before they could be brought in for succour. A significant number would have been killed outright, and overlooked or lost. And many would have melted away in flight, confusion or desertion.

I reckon that one fifth - one quarter at most - of those missing were killed or left to die on the battlefield.

So here's my estimate : 4,878 confirmed killed ; 4,000 died of wounds in hospital after the battle ; 2,500 missing were dead. Grand total fatalities c.11,400. Of that total, up to two thirds are on display in that ossuary.

That's submitted with diffidence.

This exceeds the total for both sides suffered in three days at Gettysburg, which cost 47,000 casualties of whom 10,732 were killed or would die from wounds.

All mistakes here are mine.

Regards, Phil

---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 6039
http:// 82.44.47.99
Re: ...to hide the slain...
Posted on: 10/13/2017 11:51:40 AM
Phil-you are the noted statistician of MHO; and I accept your judgement in these matters. Solferino was a battle I had vaguely heard about but you mention hospitals in that era did sound implausible- as I'm thinking dark ages-- especially after reading about the killing of the wounded. Apologies for my undoubted ignorance in this matter.

Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

Phil andrade
London, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Moderator
Posts: 2535

Re: ...to hide the slain...
Posted on: 10/13/2017 12:22:58 PM
Jim,

This comes from an iPhone on the train. Forgive errors as I try and tap on tiny screen

The reputation of Solferino is so dire that it's easy to forget how good some of those military doctors were, and the epic resourcefulness they displayed in extremis.

Likewise, soldiers recovered from seemingly fatal wounds far more frequently than is generally acknowledged.

I think the problem with assessing Solferino's toll lies principally in the large proportion of missing, especially in the Austrian army.

The proportion of confirmed killed to wounded in the battle is remarkably similar to that at Antietam or Gettysburg.

They afford a good basis for extrapolation.

Regards, Phil
---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 6039
http:// 82.44.47.99
Re: ...to hide the slain...
Posted on: 10/13/2017 12:43:46 PM
Lack of Leadership

At Solferino all three armies were led by their respective monarchs with no experienced chief of general staff to assist them in their decision making, unlike the Prussians who were developing a highly trained staff capable of planning their armies movements with great precision.

Thus the battle of Solferino became a soldiers’ battle, with hardly any inspiration filtering down to the ranks from their leaders, none of whom at the outset of the engagement were aware of the proximity of the others forces until they were virtually on top of each other.

Regards

Jim

Only for Reference

[Read More]


---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

Phil andrade
London, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Moderator
Posts: 2535

Re: ...to hide the slain...
Posted on: 10/13/2017 5:50:34 PM
The French broke the Austrian centre at Solferino by a direct frontal assault after a gruelling battle that offered little in the way of manoeuvre.

Lee tried to do the same thing at Gettysburg with Pickett's Charge, and has been blamed for it.

Perhaps he was convinced that his Solferino moment had come.

Gettysburg has its own tale to tell about hiding the slain.

The Union dead were brought into prominence and their interment made the occasion of immortal oratory.

The Confederate slain remained hidden for several years, until a piecemeal exhumation process moved them south.

In the aftermath of battle , an array of photographs brought the slain to the public gaze.

Regards, Phil
---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

Phil andrade
London, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Moderator
Posts: 2535

Re: ...to hide the slain...
Posted on: 10/14/2017 3:35:37 AM

Quote:
So- I was wrong; but surprised at the taking of prisoners in that battle. -How may dead were there-in your opinion.????



NB.The CWG Commission had also been mandated to individually commemorate each soldier who had no known grave, which amounted to 315,000 in France and Belgium alone.

Regards

Jim
--anemone


Jim,

Sniffing around Solferino on the web, I've found mention of the work of an Italian sociologist and statistician, Costatino Cipolla, who helped produce a four volume history of the battle.

He mentions that, while the official toll of killed was just under 5,000, battlefield exhumation in 1870 was conducted for reasons of hygiene, and that 9,500 dead were recovered. To this should be added the dead who had already been buried in cemeteries, those mainly being men who succumbed to wounds in whatever medical facilities were available after the battle.

Regards, Phil
---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 6039
http:// 82.44.47.99
Re: ...to hide the slain...
Posted on: 10/14/2017 4:43:13 AM
Phil-So how many does the above add up to now-I confess to having lost count

Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

Phil andrade
London, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Moderator
Posts: 2535

Re: ...to hide the slain...
Posted on: 10/14/2017 8:20:17 AM
Jim,

Judging by the 9,500 dead exhumed from the field itself , and making a guess as to the mortality rate among wounded who were evacuated and died elsewhere, I reckon my 11,500 passes muster as a decent guess.

Here's a bit of research and an observation by me :

Earlier on I alluded to the yankee soldiers who bivouacked at Chancellorsville, among the dead from the previous year's battle, before they were pitched into the Battle of the Wilderness, 5-6 May 1864, one of the American Civil War's worst battles.

Look at the Union casualties for that battle, and compare it with the French and Allied casualties at Solferino :

Solferino : Killed, 2,492 ; Wounded, 12,512 ; Missing , 2,922. Total : 17,926.

Wilderness : Killed, 2,246; Wounded, 12,037; Missing, 3,383. Total : 17,666.

A very remarkable similarity, not only in the totals but in the composition.

Using regimental muster rolls for the Wilderness, I have been able to discern that, allowing for the died from wounds and the missing who were dead, that total of 2,246 yankees killed in action was to be increased by at least 2,000....resulting in a total fatality that was close to double the reported number of killed.

If that was true for the Wilderness, it's a legitimate assumption that it might well apply to the Franco -Piedmontese casualties at Solferino, implying an Allied total of five thousand dead, more or less. I would think that the Austrians, defeated and abandoning the field would have lost rather more, with their wounded more vulnerable and their larger number of missing containing many dead....so, all in all, I'll stick with my guess of c. 11,500.

As for hiding the slain, it's an anecdote from the Battle of the Wilderness that one of the yankee generals ( Warren, commander V Coprs ), insisted that his adjutant reduce the number posted as killed in the return of his command, in order to protect his reputation.

Regards, Phil

---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 6039
http:// 82.44.47.99
Re: ...to hide the slain...
Posted on: 10/14/2017 8:59:54 AM
[quote[ As for hiding the slain, it's an anecdote from the Battle of the Wilderness that one of the yankee generals ( Warren, commander V Coprs ), insisted that his adjutant reduce the number posted as killed in the return of his command, in order to protect his reputation.[.quote] Stupid Man


Pride goeth before a fall and Time makes fools of us all. Our only comfort is that- greater shall come after us.

Thank you Phil for sll of your excellent work

Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

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