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colbertnation
Posts: 580
 | | American Army at New York | | Posted on: 1/25/2010 11:39:43 AM | The Americans fought, but were defeated more times than they won. Didn't give up, though. May be that they didn't know how.
There is one little thing that puzzles me about the fighting around New York. Why was it so hard for Washington to gather any intelligence on the enemy's positions? The British were successful in their spying; why not the Americans?
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"Life is a journey. Time is a river. The door is a jar." -- the Dresden Files
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| Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
Posts: 1382
| | Re: American Army at New York | | Posted on: 5/28/2010 10:35:03 AM | The British were good at capturing American spies in New York area due to a lot of Loyalists! That's where Patrick Henry was caught and executed!? Remember, " I regret I have only one life to give for my country!" What say you?
MD
PS also an easy access area for the British Navy!
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
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| john hayward
Allenstown, NH, USA
Posts: 93
| | Re: American Army at New York | | Posted on: 5/28/2010 11:09:12 AM | Don't mean Nathan Hale? Hale' cover blown by a Loyalist who knew him from Connecticut. Hale was then set up and captured by Robert Rogers of Rogers' Rangers fame.
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| Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
Posts: 1382
| | Re: American Army at New York | | Posted on: 5/28/2010 11:18:50 AM | John,
Your right, I meant Nathan Hale, It was Patick Henry who said "give me liberty or give me death!" a simular sentiment!? Both great Patriots!?
MD
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
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| jason
Arlington, VA, USA
Posts: 156
| | Re: American Army at New York | | Posted on: 5/28/2010 11:36:26 AM | If you're interested in reading more, I recommend "Washington's Spies" by Alexander Rose.
[Read More]
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| Coaling
Silicon Valley, CA, USA
Posts: 75
| | Re: American Army at New York | | Posted on: 5/28/2010 11:37:05 AM |
John . . .
I've never before heard of a connection between Nathan Hale and Robert Rogers. What was the nature of that?
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. . .
Captain Coaling
Curmudgeon Corps
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| george
Haliburton, ON, Canada
Posts: 1349
| | Re: American Army at New York | | Posted on: 5/28/2010 12:18:53 PM |
Quote:The British were good at capturing American spies in New York area due to a lot of Loyalists! That's where Patrick Henry was caught and executed!? Remember, " I regret I have only one life to give for my country!" What say you?
MD
PS also an easy access area for the British Navy!
--Michigan Dave
Yes, bless the UEL's (United Empire Loyalists). Unwelcome in the new USA, they were America's loss and certainly Canada's gain.
Cheers,
George
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| Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
Posts: 1382
| | Re: American Army at New York | | Posted on: 5/28/2010 12:26:56 PM | George,
Have they ever done a study, percentage wise, or numbers wise, as to how many Loyalists were in Canada at various times in history? Also alot of Military objectors also did and still do head to Canada? How are they received there?
MD
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
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| George
Haliburton, ON, Canada
Posts: 1349
| | Re: American Army at New York | | Posted on: 5/29/2010 8:01:47 AM |
Quote:George,
Have they ever done a study, percentage wise, or numbers wise, as to how many Loyalists were in Canada at various times in history? Also alot of Military objectors also did and still do head to Canada? How are they received there?
MD
--Michigan Dave
Hello Dave,
The UEL's are very important to the development of Canada. There is still a United Empire Loyalist Association of Canada (see uelac.org) for descendants who left the former 13 colonies at independence. I confess that I had to do a little digging to get some numbers but the importance of the UEL's is taught in our history classes.
There may have been over 250,000 people in the 13 colonies who opposed the revolution. Of those, about 70,000 chose to leave. Some had actually been in loyalist regiments like King's Royal Reg. of NY, New Jersey Volunteers, Butler's Rangers and Roger's Rangers.
There was even a group of black loyalists who left with a promise of freedom. That didn't work out quite so well.
The British offered sanctuary in Nova Scotia and Quebec. You have to think of the pre-confederation geography. As a result, there were large numbers who wound up in present day New Brunswick, near St. John. There were settlements along the St. Lawrence and large numbers who came to what is now Ontario.
The beautiful town of St. Andrew's, New Bruswick sits on the sea. Directly across the bay is the US. The waterfront street consists of homes which were barged across from the US side after the revolution. The homes are historical property as they were UEL homes.
The UEL's were big supporters of land ownership and representative government. They influenced our development toward independence and democracy. In 1789, Lord Dorchester, gov. of Quebec conferred a "mark of honour" upon the UEL's saying that they could attach the initials UE for Unity of the Empire, to their names. It is the only hereditary title allowed in Canada.
The current Coat of Arms of Ontario has written on it Ut incept sic permanet fidelit, or As she began, so she remains, Loyal. To a certain extent, Ontario was a loyalist colony and then province.
In more modern history, Canada has received conscientious objectors from the US. I would not characterize them as loyalists because they were seeking refuge and not for reasons of loyalty to Canada. The largest group were the Viet Nam protesters. I don't have the numbers but thousands came north to avoid your draft. Many have become prominent Canadian citizens and because of an amnesty declared in the US, are now able to return to see family and friends.
The Viet Nam war was a hot topic here as well. Canada stayed out of it officially but estimates indicate that 40,000 Canadians volunteered for duty in the US forces.
There have been a small number of your service people who have come to Canada to avoid being sent to Iraq or Afghanistan. They have claimed refugee status and when you do that here, you are entitled to a lengthy process to determine the legitimacy of your claim. Most have been sent back to the states. Since they are all volunteers, they chose to be in the military. As a result, many people in Canada see them as deserters unlike the draftees in the Viet Nam era, for whom there was much sympathy.
However, there are still groups in Canada who are opposed to war and who lend support to these people as they arrive. The number is much smaller than in the Viet Nam era.
I'm getting a little long winded here, so I'll stop now.
Cheers,
George
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| john hayward
Allenstown, NH, USA
Posts: 93
| | Re: American Army at New York | | Posted on: 5/29/2010 7:09:00 PM | Coaling,
Sorry for the late reply. I 1st had heard about this during F&I War College held at Fort Ticonderoga. Recently I read War on the Run by John Ross. In it it does a great job telling the story of Rogers. In chapter 16 Ross goes into great detail in relating Rogers role in the capture of Hale.
It seems that this happened after the Cont Congress had ordered Rogers arrest but he escaped into the British lines at NYC.
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| Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
Posts: 1382
| | Re: American Army at New York | | Posted on: 6/4/2010 10:02:00 AM | What other Colonial Cities besides NY were Pro-British ?
MD
PS Check out my posts #'s, 4 aces! at this time 1111 ! Poker Posts anyone?
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
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| Mike Johnson
Fallon, NV, USA
Posts: 1140
| | Re: American Army at New York | | Posted on: 6/4/2010 8:13:47 PM |
Quote:What other Colonial Cities besides NY were Pro-British ?
--Michigan Dave
Charleston and Savannah, even Philadelphia had a lot of loyalists. The regulators of North Carolina for the most part remained loyal because they had earlier rebelled against the Whig officials of North Carolina and still considered them to be corrupt.
The colonies were mostly rural. The British were able to maintain or regain control over several of the coastal cities based on international trade in part because of loyalists and in part because armies could be sustained in these cities. Loyalists outside these citizens were forced to fleet to them.
Remember, the two main political parties in the British Empire were the Whigs and the Tories and in the colonies, it was along political lines that divided them. The Whigs were better prepared for the war, but there were a lot of Tories, primarily in the large port cities.
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| George
Haliburton, ON, Canada
Posts: 1349
| | Re: American Army at New York | | Posted on: 6/5/2010 7:40:39 AM | We know about the Loyalist's who left for Canada after the war. I was wondering whether there were any Loyalists who stayed and were successful and perhaps prominent in political life?
How dangerous was it to have remained in the USA for a Loyalist? Were these people simply shunned and ignored or treated badly and perhaps violently?
Cheers,
George
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| MPReed
USA
Posts: 26
| | Re: American Army at New York | | Posted on: 6/11/2010 12:27:03 PM |
Quote:We know about the Loyalist's who left for Canada after the war. I was wondering whether there were any Loyalists who stayed and were successful and perhaps prominent in political life?
How dangerous was it to have remained in the USA for a Loyalist? Were these people simply shunned and ignored or treated badly and perhaps violently?
--George
Their were some isolated cases of violance (for example with one judge Lynch--hence the origin of the verb), but generally speaking loyalists simply continued on as before. Certainly in local politics many did well. For example, if we look at one of the chief loyalists of Philadelphia, Benjamin Chew, his daughter married a continental officer (John Eager Howard) and Washington attended their wedding. The first Federal surveyor of Michigan was an ex Loyalist that fled to Canada and returned. For the most part, those who were most discriminated against, and perhaps charged with various offenses, were those who took up arms against the U.S. It is they (and their families) that fled the U.S. for Canada etc (30-50,000 went to Canada). Some returned, most did not.
--
regards,
Michael
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Regards,
Michael P. Reed
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| colbertnation
Posts: 580
| | Re: American Army at New York | | Posted on: 6/11/2010 8:48:08 PM | Loyalists were certainly treated badly throughout the colonies as the British presence in those colonies left.
New York was also notorious for those floating prison ships in their harbor. Many of those inmates died of starvation. Heck of a way to go.
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"Life is a journey. Time is a river. The door is a jar." -- the Dresden Files
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| Mike Johnson
Fallon, NV, USA
Posts: 1140
| | Re: American Army at New York | | Posted on: 6/12/2010 2:32:49 AM |
Quote:For example, if we look at one of the chief loyalists of Philadelphia, Benjamin Chew, his daughter married a continental officer (John Eager Howard) and Washington attended their wedding.
--MPReed
Chew was a Quaker and a pacifist who refused to support either side of the war. He was a long time friend of both George Washington and John Adams and was highly respected by leaders throughout the colonies. He advocated strongly that reform was needed and that the colonists had legitimate issues, but he also argued just as strongly that war was not the answer. Both sides made false claims that he supported them. He was arrested because he refused to help the patriots at the time when the British advanced on Philadelphia, but was later pardoned. I wouldn't list him as a loyalist, let alone one of their leaders.
Of course, that depends on how one defines a loyalist. In my mind, it is one who gave active support, including but not limited to military service, financial support, or active information collection, to the crown. It is generally assumed that 30-40% were patriots, 10-15% were loyalists, and give or take 50% didn't actively support either side.
Quote:The first Federal surveyor of Michigan was an ex Loyalist that fled to Canada and returned.
Are you referring to Benjamin Hough? If so, I would appreciate more information about him. Was he the Benjamin Hough who was part of the conflicting claims between New York and New Hampshire in what is now Vermont, who was commissioned by New York as a justice of the peace in the disputed territory, and who was imprisoned for a week in January 1775, given 200 lashes on Ethan Allen's orders, and told never to return to the New Hampshire Grants again? If so, what did he do between 1775 and 1815 when he (if the same person) was contracted to establish the baseline in the Michigan Territory?
Of course, those with the New Hampshire claims at the time (like Ethan Allen and Seth Warner) were Whigs and the New York government Hough was associated with were Tories (meaning political parties in 1774-75.
I should point out that from 1783 to 1794 there were numerous issues between the US and the British, in many cases relating to failures on both sides to implement the 1783 treaty. The US had failed (largely because the federal government did not have the power to force the states to do otherwise) to ensure that British subjects could move to, reside in, or initiate legal claims for lost property in any of the states. Most states had harsh laws against loyalists. The London Treaty of 1794, known in the US as the Jay Treaty, led to repeals of many state laws against loyalists. This did offer the chance for some to return. But, prior to 1794, it wasn't safe for a known loyalist to be in any US state because of the harsh feelings against loyalists and the state laws involved.
So many loyalists moved to Quebec and Nova Scotia that both provinces quickly split into two: with Lower Canada/Upper Canada and Nova Scotia/New Brunswick. All told, about 70,000 settled in these provinces or Newfoundland.
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| ken250k
NY, NY, USA
Posts: 105
| | FYI | | Posted on: 6/21/2010 10:25:11 PM | Fraunces Tavern, the site of GW's resignation, has about a half dozen presentations each summer/fall dealing with the NY campaign or the period.
I saw Thomas Fleming there, he was great.
The tavern also houses a museum which has some cool stuff.
Check out the FT website for details.
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