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azita
Posts: 250
 | | 1,000 yrs ago Vikings in America | | Posted on: 4/21/2010 7:55:48 AM | this is simply an attempt to post about the oldest battle on this forum. 
In A.D. 1010, 24 Vikings and 7 Women were surrounded by hundreds of Indians in the state of Washington. After the battle 12 Vikings were killed 12 escaped and the women were taken prisoner by the Indians. Columbus was not even born yet!!
Found near Grave Near City! headlined the July 5, 1926 issue of the Spokane Daily Chronicle. It showed a Whale shaped boulder 50 feet long and 15 feet high.
On it was a Norse Runic Inscription. Professor Opsjohn translated it and dated it 1010 AD. It told of a fight between a band of Vikings (24 men and 7 women) and Indians. Half of the men and one women were killed and buried at the smaller end of the boulder.
The other Vikings who escaped the battle carved the runes before swimming the Columbia River to get out of the territory.
There are also carved pictures of the Norse Goddess Freya with gold horns on her helm. The same as those found in Gotland Denmark and are now in the Northern Royal Museum of Denmark.
Margarette Amundson Reynolds, a runic scholar, said the Viking Grave was the most remarkable discovery ever uncovered on the North American continent. She said the inscription was filled with a thrilling description of action.
The Record tells how the men put the seven women and baby on top of the boulder. The men then stood about the base fighting the Indians. They were greatly outnumbered.
Twelve of the Norsemen were killed. The Indians captured the women and left. The survivors dug a grave near the rock and buried the dead.
Pictured rocks with runes are scattered across the American continent. They prove beyond a doubt, that the Norse established colonies 500 years before Columbus.
Philip Howell, sage of the Clallam tribe states that his grandmother told him of big blond men who came many generations ago. They wandered inland and that the rock near Spokane was regarded by the Indians as the burial place of the Invaders who were killed in their battle with the Indians.
Howell said that blonds among the Clallams were proof of the six Norse women were captured by the Indians, and integrated into the tribe.
Apparently a US TV channel NOVA had an episode "Vikings in America" in 1995 that coved this, i wish i could find that it sounds fascinating.
Azita
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I did never know so full a voice issue from so empty a heart: but the saying is true 'The empty vessel makes the greatest sound'.
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| George
Haliburton, ON, Canada
Posts: 1348
| | Re: 1,000 yrs ago Vikings in America | | Posted on: 4/21/2010 8:11:42 AM | Great post Azita. The Norsemen were certainly great travellers but I had no idea that they were that far from home.
You may be aware of a UNESCO World Heritage Site in Newfoundland, Canada at L'Anse aux Meadows. It is a national historic site operated by Parks Canada and is a reconstruction of the Viking settlement there. There are 3 buildings and artifacts.
This living museum shows what Viking life in settlements was like. It is considered to be the earliest evidence of European settlement in North America. I would have to check to see how its history compares with the evidence that you have presented.
As school kids, we were regaled with the voyages of Leif the Lucky and his friend Bjarni Hejolfson who headed out from Iceland and from their stories landed on Baffin Island, then Labrador and then Vinland on Newfoundland in about 986 AD. There is evidence that they were much further south than that as well.
From what you report, they were busy people.
Cheers,
George
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| George
Haliburton, ON, Canada
Posts: 1348
| | Re: 1,000 yrs ago Vikings in America | | Posted on: 4/21/2010 8:27:56 AM |
Quote:this is simply an attempt to post about the oldest battle on this forum. Howell said that blonds among the Clallams were proof of the six Norse women were captured by the Indians, and integrated into the tribe. Azita --azita
Just wondering Azita, was there any mention of a DNA study to determine whether some Norse genetic information is embedded within the cells of these First Nations people?
I know that a study in Britain revealed that a significant number of people carried genetic information that could be traced to the Vikings but then we know that the Vikings raided that part of the world.
George
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| George
Haliburton, ON, Canada
Posts: 1348
| | Re: 1,000 yrs ago Vikings in America | | Posted on: 4/21/2010 8:51:17 AM | Hi again,
I was just thinking that your post seems to support the rather violent image that we have of the Norse people. But I can't find any evidence that they were in conflict with the indigenous people of Newfoundland, the Beothuks. Most accounts say that they lived rather peacefully with the Norse.
The Norse called them skraelings, I believe.
Now the Vikings only stayed in Newfoundland for about 8 years and there weren't many of them but there were a lot of Beothuks. There is some evidence that the Beothuk studiously avoided contact with outsiders, considering them to be evil spirits. Maybe that's why they didn't have a war.
The Beothuk, because of their habit of coating their bodies with red ochre may have been the reason why Europeans coined the term "red Indian".
Sadly, even if the Vikings left them alone, subsequent incursions by Europeans resulted in the annihilation of this tribe. The last Beothuk died in 1829.
Cheers,
George
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| colbertnation
Posts: 580
| | Re: 1,000 yrs ago Vikings in America | | Posted on: 4/21/2010 1:02:01 PM | I had never heard of a battle such as you describe in Washington state, but I have heard of Vikings visiting the area. Would these have been some who wandered overland towards the Nortwest Territories? I'm not sure that I would have called this a 'battle'; perhaps just one group surprised the other?
NOVA may produce some interesting documentaries, but I wouldn't necessarily believe everything they say.
Iceland. Newfoundland. Northern Maine. Maybe a bit of New Hampshire with Viking history. Never heard the bit about Washington State. PBS might have tapes available if you could recall a title.
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"Life is a journey. Time is a river. The door is a jar." -- the Dresden Files
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| azita
Posts: 250
| | Re: 1,000 yrs ago Vikings in America | | Posted on: 4/22/2010 5:52:27 AM |
Quote:The Beothuk, because of their habit of coating their bodies with red ochre may have been the reason why Europeans coined the term "red Indian". --George
NOW! there is a wonderful snippet!!! Exactly why i haunt this sort of forum, thank you George.
I read elsewhere that Norse DNA is found in the native american tribes.
colbertnation, Hello!
i just cut and pasted from an article I read on line.
I have No idea what the difference between a battle or skirmish or fight?
At the risk of being rude, I often think that Americans ignore their pre 1776 history.
"Columbus discovered America" "Jamestown and Roanoke were the 1st American settlements" Well clearly that isn't right.
May I ask why Americans in general don't explore this part of their history in any Depth? ( not of course that "you" have too)
I make no challenge here, just my usual mental wanderings.
Azita
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I did never know so full a voice issue from so empty a heart: but the saying is true 'The empty vessel makes the greatest sound'.
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| George
Haliburton, ON, Canada
Posts: 1348
| | Re: 1,000 yrs ago Vikings in America | | Posted on: 4/22/2010 7:23:47 AM | Hello Colbertnation,
I wondered how they got to the other side of the continent.
I know that they were farmers wherever they settled but I thought that their primary mode of travel was by sea.
Begs the question then, did they navigate the north-west passage and head south through the Bering Strait? Doesn't seem plausible but perhaps someone has some information on that.
Cheers,
George
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| George
Haliburton, ON, Canada
Posts: 1348
| | Re: 1,000 yrs ago Vikings in America | | Posted on: 4/22/2010 7:30:09 AM | Hello Azita,
There is a tendency to accept that the only real settlement was effected by Europeans post-Columbus. This is probably because the settlements lasted.
The Norse settlements lasted less than a decade.
Our American friends actually celebrate a holiday called Columbus Day. Perhaps they may tell us why.
Now I have close friends of Italian descent. They came here as babies but will brook no suggestion that the Vikings discovered North America. Their pride in ethnic origin won't allow them to accept that. Oh, they know that the Vikings were here first but as explorers and colonizers, they see them as "pretenders".
Cheers,
George
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| colbertnation
Posts: 580
| | Re: 1,000 yrs ago Vikings in America | | Posted on: 4/22/2010 3:08:49 PM | azita,
"Columbus discovered America" is probably the most popular (not necessarily true) statement concerning the discovery of the Americas. Columbus certainly publicized his findings more than did Erik and the vikings. Or that Irish monk whose name escapes me at the moment. (I think the monk was around 1400-1440?)
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"Life is a journey. Time is a river. The door is a jar." -- the Dresden Files
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| colbertnation
Posts: 580
| | Re: 1,000 yrs ago Vikings in America | | Posted on: 4/22/2010 3:18:59 PM | George,
Maybe they just walked. (Don't laugh.) If they came across the north of Russia, why not? The first settlers in North America COULD have come by sea; but very likely came by sea and by foot. The Ice Age would have helped by closing off travel by water and giving the earliest explorers something more concrete to travel on. Just because there may have been a lot of ice, doesn't mean it couldn't have happened.
Clothing would have been animal skins with perhaps wool felt worn next to the skim. Animal fats could have coated anything exposed to cold air.
I am reminded of how the ancient Celts came out of Central Europe and settled in Spain, then fixed their smallish, round boats for exploration before finally landing in the area where most of their descendants are today.
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"Life is a journey. Time is a river. The door is a jar." -- the Dresden Files
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| George
Haliburton, ON, Canada
Posts: 1348
| | Re: 1,000 yrs ago Vikings in America | | Posted on: 4/23/2010 5:22:20 PM | I'm not laughing because the indigenous people of our continent supposedly wander across the Bering Strait when it wasn't open water. It just doesn't seem plausible.
The Norse seem to be sea faring people who sailed to where they wanted to be. We would have to presume that they somehow got to present day Russia and then made their way across.
Interesting to ponder the possibilities.
George
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| George
Haliburton, ON, Canada
Posts: 1348
| | Re: 1,000 yrs ago Vikings in America | | Posted on: 4/26/2010 7:36:54 AM |
Quote:azita,
"Columbus discovered America" is probably the most popular (not necessarily true) statement concerning the discovery of the Americas. Columbus certainly publicized his findings more than did Erik and the vikings. Or that Irish monk whose name escapes me at the moment. (I think the monk was around 1400-1440?)
--colbertnation
I think that his name was Brendan or I guess St. Brendan.
George
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| RiaindeVoy
Geelong, Australia
Posts: 1217
| | Re: 1,000 yrs ago Vikings in America | | Posted on: 5/29/2010 7:41:26 PM | Presumably the Norse has iron weapons such as swords and battle axes and perhaps mail or leather armour, as well as a tradtion of fighting in a shield wall European style. As such I'd guess they sold their lives very dearly against Americans not so well equipped or 'trainined'.
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"Dante did not live to see the full development of political propaganda, commercial advertisement, and sensational journalism, but he has prepared a place for them" Dorothy L Sayers
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| George
Haliburton, ON, Canada
Posts: 1348
| | Re: 1,000 yrs ago Vikings in America | | Posted on: 5/30/2010 6:55:46 PM | From what I have read, some of their battles were free for all while others actually had a battle plan. They sometimes employed a wedge attack with younger men in the front and the older in the rear.
In one of their fights with the Beothuk in Vinland, they actually deployed some bulls that they had brought with them. The natives were fearful of these animals. According to the saga, the bellowing of the bull put them to flight.
If the Beothuk fought as many First Nations tribes have against Europeans, the Norse may have found their battle tactics wanting. I would think that they faced a good deal of harassment, cutting in, quick attack and quick withdrawal. The natives would be trying to attack the flanks never meeting head on.
I believe that the Norse left Vinland partly because of these annoying attacks and the theft of property that went along with it.
I was surprised to find that not all the Vikings had the same protection. If you were wealthy, you had more. Mail armour was the preserve of the wealthy. Some sported a circular shield while others had a wedge shaped one that protected the legs.
I think that the information on the Vikings methods stems from only a few sagas.
Cheers,
George
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| brian grafton
Victoria, BC, Canada
Posts: 2136
| | Re: 1,000 yrs ago Vikings in America | | Posted on: 5/30/2010 9:21:07 PM | I've come to this thread late, and it is kinda fascinating. Hope you don't mind a few random comments, because I don't really see what's being described as probable. I'm wondering if "repcisg", who is our only WA member, has heard anything about this.
So, I guess here are the things that puzzle/fascinate/trouble me about this thread:
1. Spokane, WA, is an inland city. Now that doesn't stop their newspaper from reporting something that occurred elsewhere, but that 1926 header certainly suggests this took place inland, in the NE of the state.
2. I don't know whether there is any correlation between Native tribes and WA county names, but IIRC Clallam County is in the extreme NW of WA: I look at it every morning. Maybe WA chose to use Native names for counties at random, but I have always assumed that Clallam County was named in recognition of its major Native group.
3. Minnesota (US) and Manitoba (CD) both promote their Viking heritage. Most of it has always seemed to me to be tourist hype, I'll admit. But the Vikings of the 11th century were largely sea-faring, and the Great Lakes waterway could get hardy types half-way from Newfoundland to WA. George, at least, will realize what a daunting task that would be!
4. How indigenous groups peopled North America is still a very open question. I raise this because the "land bridge" argument is, IMHO, if not in tatters being challenged by other possibilities. All of these occurred tens of thousands of years before the Vikings, of course, but I thought I should add it to the mix.
5. During the westward expansion of Norse (Viking) culture, the earth was in a period of warming. That's part of the reason why Norse settlements took root not only in Iceland but also in Greenland. The end of that mini-warming period brought disaster to Vikings living in established Greenland settlements (and they may have been there for longer than 100 years). There is some evidence that, with chronic malnutrition causing distortions in the pelvic bones, many women died in childbirth. I raise this because although I don't believe it was possible, there is a chance that the Northwest Passage could have been open to ocean-going craft. It it were possible, the window would have been very small, and I don't know if it would fit the dates being suggested.
6. Just to muddy the waters (part 1): Kennewick Man (whose skeleton was found on the banks of the Columbia in SE WA) seems to be distinct from most Native groups in the area. Last I heard, nobody knows how he got there. But a facial reconstruction suggests a man who looks more like Patrick Stewart (captain of Star Trek: Next Generation) than typical Northwest natives.
7. Just to muddy the waters (part 2): there have been some rather less than scientific claims made that the Chinese may have explored the West Coast of NA some 70 years before Columbus. The jury is definitely still out on this claim.
I believe George is right in saying that much of the history has been extrapolated from various sagas and eddas. But IIRC, at least some has also come from the various communities – in Iceland, Greenland, and Vinland – where there are physical records as well.
Cheers
bg
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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly.
"The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
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| colbertnation
Posts: 580
| | Re: 1,000 yrs ago Vikings in America | | Posted on: 5/30/2010 11:24:20 PM | Wow! Brian, I believe this is what?...... the second time I have totally (well, almost) agreed with you.
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"Life is a journey. Time is a river. The door is a jar." -- the Dresden Files
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