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 (???? - 1799 AD) Pre-19th Century Battles    
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anemone
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950th Nniversary of the Battle of Hastings in 1066
Posted on: 10/14/2016 6:07:16 AM
It is arguably the most famous battle in English history. On Saturday, October 14 it will be 950 years to the day that England’s last Anglo-Saxon king Harold Godwinson failed to defend England against William the Conqueror’s Norman army at the Battle of Hastings. This pivotal moment changed the course of British history forever.

A victorious William, Duke of Normandy promptly seized the throne, replaced the Saxon aristocracy with a French-speaking ruling class and introduced common law into England. Perhaps his greatest legacy was his introduction of the Domesday Book in 1085, essentially a comprehensive inventory of England.

To mark this pivotal moment that changed the course of British history forever, here are nine facts you may not know about the last time England was invaded.

[Read More]


[Read More]


Regards

Jim

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anemone
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Re: 950th Nniversary of the Battle of Hastings in 1066
Posted on: 10/14/2016 9:33:01 AM
The Battle of Hastings may have been won decisively by William the Conqueror, but the English put up a good fight, despite their exhaustion and their opponents having better cavalry. In fact, the battle lasted most of the day – unusually long for a medieval battle.

The Saxons (about 6,000 soldiers) fought long and hard on high ground using a traditional shield wall – a solid defensive wall of shields – which the Normans (about 7,000 troops) were unable to break through for many hours.

Not bad for an army that had just marched 250 miles from Stamford Bridge near York, to the south coast after their epic victory against Viking warrior Harald Hardrada of Norway and Harold's rebel brother Tostig.

Source-as previous post

Regards

Jim
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SJ
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Re: 950th Nniversary of the Battle of Hastings in 1066
Posted on: 10/14/2016 2:20:01 PM
Thanks for posting Jim. Way most important battle in the history of the English speaking people.

Counterfactually without the Norman aggression into Wales, Scotland and Ireland, the political development of the British Isles might have been so much different and we would never have heard of the British Empire.

George
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Re: 950th Nniversary of the Battle of Hastings in 1066
Posted on: 10/14/2016 3:29:09 PM
That's intriguing SJ. Were the Anglo-Saxons incapable of the same type of government introduced by the Normans?

George

anemone
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Re: 950th Nniversary of the Battle of Hastings in 1066
Posted on: 10/15/2016 2:36:41 AM

Quote:
Anglo-Saxon law, the body of legal principles that prevailed in England from the 6th century until the Norman Conquest (1066). In conjunction with Scandinavian law and the so-called barbarian laws (leges barbarorum) of continental Europe, it made up the body of law called Germanic law.

Anglo-Saxon law was written in the vernacular and was relatively free of the Roman influence found in continental laws that were written in Latin. Roman influence on Anglo-Saxon law was indirect and exerted primarily through the church. There was a definite Scandinavian influence upon Anglo-Saxon law as a result of the Viking invasions of the 8th and 9th centuries.

Only with the Norman Conquest did Roman law, as embodied in Frankish law, make its influence felt on the laws of England.The Church was the arbiter of government]/quote]
Britannica

[Read More]

Regards

Jim
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George
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Re: 950th Nniversary of the Battle of Hastings in 1066
Posted on: 10/15/2016 7:49:24 AM
So what was lost and what was gained in this conquest?

SJ implies that the British Empire perhaps would not have existed without the influence of the Normans and that was an excellent teaser so now I want to know why an Anglo-Saxon led empire would have been unlikely.

Was William a great unifier? Were the Anglo-Saxons a fractious and quarrelsome lot?

Jim how long did it take to eliminate this "German Law" alluded to in your link?

I have forgotten the history of the Norman conquest as taught in high school. When I came through there was a surge of Canadian nationalism and the details of British history had become less important.

So I am left with some random thoughts and probably incorrect perceptions.


So after the conquest what features of Anglo-Saxon government were dispensed with? How did the economic system change?

I recall the introduction of the feudal system which had great societal impact but I do not recall the Anglo-Saxon system that it replaced.

And the Normans built great castles and cathedrals. Were the Anglo-Saxons incapable of this sort of engineering or did they not see that sort of architecture as necessary?

I have this perception of the Anglo-Saxons as a wild and wooly lot while the Normans were somewhat more advanced and sophisticated. Fair or unfair?


Cheers,


George

anemone
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Re: 950th Nniversary of the Battle of Hastings in 1066
Posted on: 10/15/2016 8:15:37 AM
Hello George- your well posed questions are way above my simple learning-the Normans made firstly England- a vassal state,before moving into Scotland and Wales which they ultimately did-unlike the Anglo Saxons who had no real interest in expansionism.

The Anglo Saxon system of Folkdom and Germanic law was slowly eroded away; and the Normans gave to those AG thanes (or chieftains) who swore loyalty to King William lands and estates where castles were built thereon; the whole to be run by feudal law -the workers were serfs.

New laws were incorporated in the Domesday Book-which introdiuced tithes or taxes on all land owned.I have provided a link below which I sincerely hope answers all your questions accurately


[Read More]

Regards

Jim
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George
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Re: 950th Nniversary of the Battle of Hastings in 1066
Posted on: 10/15/2016 8:43:03 AM
Many thanks for your link JIm but I think that there is fodder for discussion here and perhaps others with knowledge of this part of British history would care to weigh in.

It would be beneficial to hear what you and others have to say about the positives and negatives of Norman conquest.

I just wouldn't want the thread ended with a summary link of the consequences of Norman conquest though I did read it with interest.


The Normans introduced the feudal system. I note that a modified form of the feudal system was introduced into New France, now Quebec by the French. It was called the seigneurial system.


But how was land allocated and controlled under the Anglo-Saxons? There was Scandinavian influence in that culture. Was there a concept of individual land ownership?

What I am getting at is, how did the life of an Anglo-Saxon peasant change with the advent of the Normans? Did the people gain or lose rights under this conqueror?


Cheers,

George

anemone
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Re: 950th Nniversary of the Battle of Hastings in 1066
Posted on: 10/15/2016 9:00:30 AM

Quote:
About 25% of the available land was acquired for his own purpose and another 25% went to the church. This was a necessary obligation as the invasion was with the blessing of Rome. The rest was divided between his trusted and loyal servants. These amounted to only 10 or 12 people.

These huge land grants were subject to conditions. William knew that a country that was not prepared for war, would soon end up in one, as the weakness of a country was an invitation for invasion, as the Saxons had found out before getting organised. He decided therefore, that to be a landowner would entail military duty. The country would be semi war ready at all times.

The tenants in chief would be responsible for raising an army in times of crisis. The tenants in chiefs, in turn, sub divided further to vassals, who were responsible for providing a fighting Knight, along with everything else he would need in battle. Depending on how large the holding was related to the number of Knights that tenant in chief supplied.

The Knights function was also to protect his peasant farmers, some of whom were wealthy landowners in their own right before the invasion. It was a form of pyramid of allegiance that had to be sworn. Everybody had a overlord with whom he had to swear allegiance and was the basis of the feudal system.

Failure to respond to the overlords request, resulted in the loss of land and privileges. The land could not be sold, partitioned without the overlords consent Everybody was answerable to a superior who he had sworn fealty too. The restrictions were great, but is instilled a sense of purpose and belonging. Everybody eventually was answerable to the Crown.

William had problems with the English adapting to the new regime. He even had problems with his Norman tenants in chief. They had delusions of grandeur but were crushed by William. By 1069 the problems were beginning to mount. He called all his Tenants in chief and major landholders to Salisbury where he laid down the law and requested that they swear an oath of allegiance to him.He introduced the original policeman -the Sheriff.

William was very clever in the way he allocated the land holdings or manors. By issuing in such a way that they were dispersed up and down the country, each tenant in chief was unable to rebel or muster enough men to challenge William. If William was a hard man, everybody knew their position in life and what was expected of them. This was the basis of the class structure that exists today.

The Normans and the English after 1066.

Regards

Jim
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Phil andrade
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Re: 950th Nniversary of the Battle of Hastings in 1066
Posted on: 10/15/2016 1:11:05 PM
Forgive my belated contribution.

Jim...that Telegraph link, did you notice something ?

It states that 10,000 men are believed to have died in the battle, and then goes on to estimate the participants as 6,000 English and 7,000 Normans.

Are we to believe that nearly eighty per cent of all the participants perished ?


I googled the battle, and picked up an interesting and plausible reference in a wiki article, citing a source that the Normans provided a roll of honour of their most high ranking warriors, and that this revealed that one in seven of them was killed in the battle. That's actually a severe casualty rate, especially if we allow for the additional numbers who were wounded. If one in seven of the higher ranking men were killed, it's a fair assumption that the mortality rate was replicated among the humbler ranks. Putting this into a more modern context for comparison, this implies that it was more deadly being a Norman soldier at the Battle of Hastings than it was being a Confederate infantryman in Pickett's division at Gettysburg. And the Normans were the victors !

This was obviously a gruelling, protracted and closely fought battle.

The phrase " decisive battle" is thrown around too readily....but in this case, it's merited.

Regards, Phil
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anemone
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Re: 950th Nniversary of the Battle of Hastings in 1066
Posted on: 10/15/2016 1:42:03 PM
Harold rejected the advice and immediately assembled the housecarls who had survived the fighting against Hardrada and marched south. Harold travelled at such a pace that many of his troops failed to keep up with him.

When Harold arrived in London he waited for the local fyrd to assemble and for the troops of the earls of Mercia and Northumbria to arrive from the north. After five days they had not arrived and so Harold decided to head for the south coast without his northern troops.

Battle of Hastings

Harold of Wessex realised he was unable to take William by surprise. He therefore decided to position himself at Senlac Hill near Hastings. Harold selected a spot that was protected on each flank by marshy land. At his rear was a forest.

The English housecarls provided a shield wall at the front of Harold's army. They carried large battle-axes and were considered to be the toughest fighters in Europe. The fyrd were placed behind the housecarls. The leaders of the fyrd, the thanes, had swords and javelins but the rest of the men were inexperienced fighters and carried weapons such as iron-studded clubs, scythes, reaping hooks and hay forks.


[Read More]


NB.I could not find fallible casualties for this battle on all the usual reliable- sites-most said-Unknown.However-I am of the opinion that the butcher bill on both sides would have been considerable-the dead and dying may well have been 6000+ all told-so fierce was the fighting on the field and thereafter

Regards

Jim
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SJ
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Re: 950th Nniversary of the Battle of Hastings in 1066
Posted on: 10/15/2016 1:46:49 PM

Quote:
That's intriguing SJ. Were the Anglo-Saxons incapable of the same type of government introduced by the Normans?

George
--George


Indeed George - a clear dichotomy in Norman and Anglo-Saxon socio-political cultures.

The received view - and its not my specialist period - would indicate complex differences:

1. The Anglo-Saxons had a different social system. The lower social orders, the Caorl were not peasants in the orthodox feudal sense, but may have had a sense of land ownership. The more Militaristic Danes called the Saxons "farmers" in a derogatory way. The Fyrd is as close as you get in the dark ages to a citizen army of freemen.


2.There is no evidence, other than time of war, that this society ever mustered an army. Now I have to qualify that and say that we have three centuries of Norse invasions and hostility. The Saxons were always on the backfoot.
3. There is continued sense of small "kingdoms". Even when they cease being kingdoms, they linger on as Ealdormen shires.

4 Unlike the Normans, the Saxons do not invest in the new arts of war. They ignore the lethal combination of elite mounted knights (with stirrups) juxtaposed with professional archers.

All this, means that "England" (this collection of Ealdormen and Shires) did not invade neighbouring Kingdoms like Wales, Scotland and Ireland. Even Cornwall was left alone until the 9th Century.

It is possible to argue that without the Norman invasion and later conquest of Wales, Scotland and Ireland, the regions of what we call Britain would have survived something like existed in Germany until Bismarck. Or until another continental invader took a fancy for the green and pleasant land.

George
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Re: 950th Nniversary of the Battle of Hastings in 1066
Posted on: 10/15/2016 3:35:35 PM
Thank you SJ. Shades of Game of Thrones as you describe a "Britain" that had not been invaded by the Normans.

As you describe them, the Anglo-Saxons were ill prepared for the modern warfare of the day.

Post Hastings, did the Anglo-Saxons capitulate or did it take William some time to pacify the different factions? (I was going to use the word tribes but that is probably inaccurate).

Pardon my ignorance but what was the newly conquered territory called by the Normans in the old Norman language. L'Angleterre???

Or did they refer to the old kingdoms like Wessex and Kent as separate realms that were conquered?


Cheers,

George


Phil andrade
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Re: 950th Nniversary of the Battle of Hastings in 1066
Posted on: 10/15/2016 3:38:03 PM
Did the Normans prevail because they were better able to fight the " all arms battle " ?

Regards, Phil
---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

James W.
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Re: 950th Nniversary of the Battle of Hastings in 1066
Posted on: 10/15/2016 7:18:08 PM
Back in those times the Monarch was the general who also directed combat, & was a fighting man too.

There was a point in the battle wher a rumour that William 'the Bastard'' had been killed, & great consternation resulted.
William doffed his helm to show his face & restore order.

Once Harold was taken out, the English lost heart like-wise.

Bear in mind these guys were cousins, being descended from King Canute a Scandinavian warlord who had holdings spanning the North Sea,
& that William felt he was redeeming what was rightfully his, from a usurper, & with the Pope's blessing..

SJ
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Re: 950th Nniversary of the Battle of Hastings in 1066
Posted on: 10/15/2016 7:31:01 PM

Quote:
Did the Normans prevail because they were better able to fight the " all arms battle " ?

Regards, Phil
--Phil andrade


A good debate warming up here. I would argue Phil, that only the Normans had 11th century "all arms" capacity. The Saxons fought behind the traditional shield wall. The Huscarls were an elite equal to any foot found in Europe (They had fought a battle at Stamford Bridge then yomped south 200 miles, averaging 25+ miles per day) The Fyrd did all that was expected of them and more.

Harold had chosen the best ground for his inferior army. He had adopted the tried and tested shieldwall and it had held. The Norman all arms tactics failed to dislodge them.

Counterfactually if the Godwinson dynasty (command & control) had survived and not killed (probably by arrows)they would have held their ground until sunset. With darkness the Normans lost their advantages. No fort or Moat to retreat to,and the Saxons on ground they knew well.

I will return to the excellent points raised by George in the morning!

anemone
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Re: 950th Nniversary of the Battle of Hastings in 1066
Posted on: 10/16/2016 2:42:41 AM

Quote:
4.00 p.m. Heavy English casualties from previous attacks meant that the front line was shorter. The Normans could now attack from the side. The few housecarls that were left were forced to form a small circle round the English standard.

The Normans attacked again and this time they broke through the shield wall and Harold and most of his housecarls were killed. With their king dead, the fyrd saw no reason to stay and fight, and retreated to the woods behind. The Normans chased the fyrd into the woods but suffered further casualties themselves when they were ambushed by the English.

According to William of Poitiers: "Victory won, the duke returned to the field of battle. He was met with a scene of carnage which he could not regard without pity in spite of the wickedness of the victims. Far and wide the ground was covered with the flower of English nobility and youth.

Harold's two brothers were found lying beside him." The next day Harold's mother, Gytha, sent a message to William offering him the weight of the king's body in gold if he would allow her to bury it. He refused, declaring that Harold should be buried on the shore of the land which he sought to guard


Regards

Jim
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Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

BWilson

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Re: 950th Nniversary of the Battle of Hastings in 1066
Posted on: 10/16/2016 3:02:53 AM

Quote:
The Norman Conquest was a cataclysm for the English people. After 1066, the country was clenched in a mailed fist. Castles, until then a rarity, sprang up everywhere. Many still stand, handsome and crenelated, their geographical situation advertising their grim purpose. For these were not defences against a foreign foe, but instruments of internal repression, from whose arrow-slits new proprietors peered out at a beaten people.

Having put down the North with terrifying savagery, leaving stretches of country depopulated, William began to rule as an absolute monarch. Quite how absolute can be seen from his compilation, some years afterwards, of a comprehensive inventory of the kingdom he now possessed.
[Read More]

Cheers

BW
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Phil andrade
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Re: 950th Nniversary of the Battle of Hastings in 1066
Posted on: 10/16/2016 3:37:13 AM
The Normans were not only formidable warriors. They were consumate traders and this imparted a degree of enlightenment to their culture.

Their reach extended down into Sicily and beyond .

Their book keeping skills are attested by Domesday.

Regards. Phil
---------------
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"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

anemone
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Re: 950th Nniversary of the Battle of Hastings in 1066
Posted on: 10/16/2016 3:47:05 AM
The Domesday Book - compiled in 1085-6 - is one of the few historical records whose name is familiar to most people in this country. It is our earliest public record, the foundation document of the national archives and a legal document that is still valid as evidence of title to land.

Based on the Domesday survey of 1085-6, which was drawn up on the orders of King William I, it describes in remarkable detail, the landholdings and resources of late 11th-century England, demonstrating the power of the government machine in the first century of the new Millennium, and its deep thirst for information.


[Read More]

Regards

Jim
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George
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Re: 950th Nniversary of the Battle of Hastings in 1066
Posted on: 10/16/2016 7:00:58 AM

Quote:

Quote:
The Norman Conquest was a cataclysm for the English people. After 1066, the country was clenched in a mailed fist. Castles, until then a rarity, sprang up everywhere. Many still stand, handsome and crenelated, their geographical situation advertising their grim purpose. For these were not defences against a foreign foe, but instruments of internal repression, from whose arrow-slits new proprietors peered out at a beaten people.

Having put down the North with terrifying savagery, leaving stretches of country depopulated, William began to rule as an absolute monarch. Quite how absolute can be seen from his compilation, some years afterwards, of a comprehensive inventory of the kingdom he now possessed.
[Read More]

Cheers

BW
--BWilson


BW's link speaks to one of the questions that I had and describes a large population under the thumb of a smaller group of foreigners.

Was the Norman control of the Anglo-Saxons so pervasive that any thoughts of rebellion against the conqueror did not occur?

Were there any instances of the rise of a dynamic A-S leader in the decades that followed, who sought to organize an insurrection? Or were the A-S totally subdued and British culture evolved from that time?


Cheers,

George




anemone
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Re: 950th Nniversary of the Battle of Hastings in 1066
Posted on: 10/16/2016 7:21:34 AM
There was a period of unrest and revolt among the indigenous populace including the Danes in the north; for seven years from 1069 to 1076-invariably over lands and taxesbut after these seven years peace,albeit uneasy;peace reigned.


Quote:
A direct consequence of the invasion was the almost total elimination of the old English aristocracy and the loss of English control over the Catholic Church in England. William systematically dispossessed English landowners and conferred their property on his continental followers.

The Domesday Book meticulously documents the impact of this colossal programme of expropriation, revealing that by 1086 only about 5 per cent of land in England south of the Tees was left in English hands.

Even this tiny residue was further diminished in the decades that followed, the elimination of native landholding being most complete in southern parts of the country.

Natives were also removed from high governmental and ecclesiastical office. After 1075 all earldoms were held by Normans, and Englishmen were only occasionally appointed as sheriffs.

Likewise in the Church, senior English office-holders were either expelled from their positions or kept in place for their lifetimes and replaced by foreigners when they died.

By 1096 no bishopric was held by any Englishman, and English abbots became uncommon, especially in the larger monasteries
Wikipedia

Regards

Jim
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George
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Re: 950th Nniversary of the Battle of Hastings in 1066
Posted on: 10/16/2016 7:50:28 AM
Thanks JIm. I appreciate your first statement regarding the Danes. Perhaps others would like to weigh in on a discussion of insurrection and leadership among the Anglo-Saxon people?

I know nothing of this subject.

I don't think that it is necessary to include a wiki quote to substantiate your statement. That could come later should the comment be challenged.

George

anemone
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Re: 950th Nniversary of the Battle of Hastings in 1066
Posted on: 10/16/2016 8:00:43 AM
Thank you George-point taken. Unfortunately I- like many other Englishmen-also am lacking on the finer points of the Norman Conquest-it is almost 70 years since my Grammar School days and the study of English history.

Regards

Jim
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George
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Re: 950th Nniversary of the Battle of Hastings in 1066
Posted on: 10/16/2016 9:34:35 AM

Quote:
Thank you George-point taken. Unfortunately I- like many other Englishmen-also am lacking on the finer points of the Norman Conquest-it is almost 70 years since my Grammar School days and the study of English history.

Regards

Jim
--anemone


Jim, we thank you for the introduction of the topic. But it is not your responsibility to answer every question or to address every issue. I know that you take proprietary interest in each thread that you introduce but I would still rather hear your opinions and knowledge expressed in your own words, appreciating that you may have physical challenges in that exercise.

I do find your personal comments insightful when you choose to make them.

I can assure you that I have less understanding of the Norman Conquest than you but there may be others who wish to discuss issues.

Some questions that I posed are simple knowledge questions and I appreciate receiving an answer. (e.g. on another thread the time for a bomb to land after release was asked by BG and answered by you)

But some questions that promote higher order thinking can lead to interesting discussion.

It's when we get into analysis and evaluation that meaningful discussion ensues.

Please forgive my foray into speaking edubabble (Bloom I think) but I am interested in the effect that the coming of the Normans had upon the Anglo-Saxon culture. So there have been allusions to alterations in the language and the diminished use of Ango-Saxon names for example.

But and this is only an example, I don't know whether the Normans enforced the use of their words aggressively or simply allowed their presence over time to erode the influence of the A-S culture. How was the culture destroyed or assimilated into Norman culture, or was it?


Cheers,


George

Phil andrade
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Re: 950th Nniversary of the Battle of Hastings in 1066
Posted on: 10/16/2016 9:59:02 AM
England was a wealthy country in 1066, and clearly perceived as such : I hope that I make a legitimate assumption.

Hence the desire of others to possess it, even at the risk of the most hazardous undertaking

I wonder if wool was a principal feature of this wealth.

The English were clearly no push over ; we need look no further than Stamford Bridge to appreciate that.

My supposition is that the Englsih society at that time was flourishing and vigorous, and that invasion was a very perilous undertaking, as Harald Hadrada and Tostig were to discover at the cost of their lives.

William himself nearly came to grief at Hastings.

I've always contended that if we compare the two cross channel invasions of 1066 and 1944, the earlier one was the riskier.

I think that the Normans were ruthless, and embarked on ethnic cleansing of the English ruling class in Church and State, but that over the course of two centuries the English were rehabilitated, and that the writings of Chaucer attest the development of an English identity founded upon the fusion of Anglo Saxon and Norman into a dynamic and prosperous culture.

Regards , Phil
---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

George
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Re: 950th Nniversary of the Battle of Hastings in 1066
Posted on: 10/16/2016 10:15:20 AM
Thanks for that Phil. I have wondered how much the Anglo-Saxons fought against assimilation by the Normans or whether it was a conscious effort at all.

Perhaps ingrained social practices are difficult to expunge.

There are some conquerors who realize the futility of trying to destroy ancient cultural practices. It was tried mightily in North America by the European expansionists and I would say that the French were quicker than Britain and certainly more so than the Spanish, to accept that some aspects of "Indian" culture would remain despite having the intention to Christianize the heathens.

The British conquered New France but realized that they could not eliminate language and cultural practices among the French-Canadians. Not that they didn't try but in the end, the cultural practices of Quebeckers were entrenched in law.

Back to William. What legal protection did an Anglo-Saxon have in Norman England? Any protections under the law?

It has been mentioned that he was "ruthless" and when I hear that word I immediately think of killing as a means to control the population. How often were reprisals against the people undertaken if at all?

Jim alluded to a revolt in the north by the people of Danish origin. What form did it take and how was it stopped? Violence or coercion?


Here's an odd question but we have read that Viking DNA is found in the cells of many Englishmen. But how about Norman DNA. If the Normans despised the A-S as has been suggested, did they inter-breed with them for reasons political? That's an excellent means to assimilate a culture over time. So did they mix? There really weren't very many of them compared to the Anglo-Saxon population.


Cheers,

George


anemone
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Re: 950th Nniversary of the Battle of Hastings in 1066
Posted on: 10/16/2016 10:56:48 AM

Quote:
Here's an odd question but we have read that Viking DNA is found in the cells of many Englishmen. But how about Norman DNA. If the Normans despised the A-S as has been suggested, did they inter-breed with them for reasons political? That's an excellent means to assimilate a culture over time. So did they mix? There really weren't very many of them compared to the Anglo-Saxon population.


The Norman ruling classes did not as a rule interbreed with their vassals' womenfolk-that is not to say that odd encounters never happened. However when one looks at the bare facts of the assimilation of conquerers and the conquered over time -the puritanical view becomes blurred as time goes by; and cohabitation would occur quite naturally as nature intended IMO.DNA testing proved this to be fact many years later-correct me if I have got this wrong.

Regards

Jim
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Michigan Dave
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Re: 950th Nniversary of the Battle of Hastings in 1066
Posted on: 10/16/2016 11:24:48 AM
Saxons, Normans, William, & Harold!

When will it all end??
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BWilson

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Re: 950th Nniversary of the Battle of Hastings in 1066
Posted on: 10/16/2016 11:30:41 AM
 Sound like good names. Norman Saxon and Harold Williams.

Cheers

BW
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anemone
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Re: 950th Nniversary of the Battle of Hastings in 1066
Posted on: 10/16/2016 12:00:36 PM

Quote:
I am interested in the effect that the coming of the Normans had upon the Anglo-Saxon culture. So there have been allusions to alterations in the language and the diminished use of Anglo-Saxon names for example.


From what I can find George-some of the major changes affecting the indigenous populace were as follows :-

1.Heavier taxation
2.Introduction of Royal Forests where the locals were disbarred from hunting therein-severe penalties were imposed on those- if caught in these grounds.
3.Increase in the use of writing in major matters
4.Introduction of Latin as a language of government matters.
5.The massive introduction of continental architecture,
6.The decline in the number of free peasants-who could move from one master to another.Amongst others I am sure.

regards

Jim
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Phil andrade
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Re: 950th Nniversary of the Battle of Hastings in 1066
Posted on: 10/16/2016 12:14:55 PM
George,

Your questions are fascinating.

The Normans excelled at business and trade, and were very pragmatic about how best to turn their advantage to good account. If this meant assimilation with, and concession to, the people they conquered, then they were more than happy to countenance it if it swelled their coffers. They were, I believe, prolific practitioners of using marriage to enhance their trading status. I get the impression that their nobility contained a cohort of strident and assertive women who became experts in the business of dynastic rule and expansion.

Incidentally, when it comes to DNA, weren't the Normans and the Vikings supposedly much the same ? Normans = Norsemen ?

My wife's maiden name is Deverson, and I always get a kick out of imagining that she shares this Norman provenance.

There is a village in Normandy called Verson.

I like to think that I'm consorting with a woman who can trace her bloodline back to the people who conquered in 1066 !

Regards, Phil
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Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

anemone
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Re: 950th Nniversary of the Battle of Hastings in 1066
Posted on: 10/16/2016 12:37:38 PM
My surname is Ainslie


[Read More]

Regards

Jim
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Phil andrade
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Re: 950th Nniversary of the Battle of Hastings in 1066
Posted on: 10/17/2016 2:34:25 AM

Quote:
My surname is Ainslie


[Read More]

Regards

Jim
--anemone


What's in a name ?

Quite a lot, apparently....


Regards, Phil


---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

SJ
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Re: 950th Nniversary of the Battle of Hastings in 1066
Posted on: 10/17/2016 6:22:33 AM

Quote:
Thanks JIm. I appreciate your first statement regarding the Danes. Perhaps others would like to weigh in on a discussion of insurrection and leadership among the Anglo-Saxon people?

I know nothing of this subject.

I don't think that it is necessary to include a wiki quote to substantiate your statement. That could come later should the comment be challenged.

George
--George

George and fellow forum members - apologies for the time lag. A serious piece of reconciliation/peace building eclipsed everything else over the weekend.

From memory I think there were some 6/7 uprisings mounted by AS groups after Hastings. Read David Horspool "The English Rebel". Quite remarkable when this era generally required some high status leader of 'royal' blood to be the focus. Edgar EAtheling was for a time, such a focus but ultimately fled north to Scotland

The response by the Normans was draconian to say the least. The school history books call it the "harrowing of the north". Historians like Kapelle call it genocide. Entire villages, hamlets and parishes were laid waste. Large tracks of the lands north of the Humber are recorded in the much vaunted Doomsday Book (1086)as simply "hoc est vast" - empty and vacuous.

As to social impact, initially there was little or no mixing of the ethnic groups. The Normans were the occupying power and the new social elite or ruling class. Saxon women lost their right to own property.
It is as late as the 14th Century before we see the corollaries of socio-cultural assimilation.

Vast numbers of Anglo-Saxons fled north in what remains Britain's greatest act of ethnic cleansing. They settled in the Scottish Borders, Galloway and the Central Belt. Their distinctive form of "Anglo Saxon Inglish" became the basis of what we would today call "Scots" - as found in the poems of Robbie Burns.



George
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Re: 950th Nniversary of the Battle of Hastings in 1066
Posted on: 10/17/2016 6:31:07 AM
Many thanks SJ. So it wasn't just one battle and then total capitulation.

I was unaware of a cultural genocide.


Cheers,

George

George
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Re: 950th Nniversary of the Battle of Hastings in 1066
Posted on: 10/17/2016 6:43:22 AM

Quote:

Quote:
I am interested in the effect that the coming of the Normans had upon the Anglo-Saxon culture. So there have been allusions to alterations in the language and the diminished use of Anglo-Saxon names for example.


From what I can find George-some of the major changes affecting the indigenous populace were as follows :-

1.Heavier taxation
2.Introduction of Royal Forests where the locals were disbarred from hunting therein-severe penalties were imposed on those- if caught in these grounds.
3.Increase in the use of writing in major matters
4.Introduction of Latin as a language of government matters.
5.The massive introduction of continental architecture,
6.The decline in the number of free peasants-who could move from one master to another.Amongst others I am sure.

regards

Jim
--anemone



Thanks Jim.

#2 is interesting. Does the concept of "crown land" still exist in Great Britain? I believe that we may have inherited the concept.

We have crown lands in Canada ostensibly owned by all of the people but administered by the government.

It's quite a coup when you can buy a piece of property abutting crown land. No-one will build behind you.

The Americans haven't received that concept of crown land well in their dealings with us. The conflict rears its head in the softwood lumber industry. Our logging business pay to log on crown land but their stumpage fees are less than the Americans pay in their country. So the Americans call this an unfair subsidy and will challenge it again under NAFTA.

Sorry for the digression but I can see that some historical events and concepts in GB have made their way here which means that we also inherited some aspects of Norman influence on GB.


BTW was there not a BBC production that showed how the regular people lived in Norman controlled Britain? It was a recreation of village life. Perhaps I am not remembering it correctly.


Cheers,


George

BWilson

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Re: 950th Nniversary of the Battle of Hastings in 1066
Posted on: 10/17/2016 8:43:41 AM
The response by the Normans was draconian to say the least. The school history books call it the "harrowing of the north". Historians like Kapelle call it genocide. Entire villages, hamlets and parishes were laid waste. Large tracks of the lands north of the Humber are recorded in the much vaunted Doomsday Book (1086)as simply "hoc est vast" - empty and vacuous.

 Sounds like what Pope Innocent and the French king did to Languedoc during the course of the Albigensian Crusade some 200 years later. Mainstream historiography has done a good job of whitewashing that event.

Cheers

BW
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With occasional, fatigued glances at life's rear-view mirror from the other side of time.

Society's righteous paranoia lows profoundly. -- random wisdom of a computer

anemone
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Re: 950th Nniversary of the Battle of Hastings in 1066
Posted on: 10/17/2016 9:04:53 AM
The Harrying of the North refers to the brutal slaughter and pillaging of Northumbria in 1069-1070 by the army of William the Conqueror. This is thought to have been devastating to the extent that 100,000 people starved to death-causing a depopulated wilderness.

The Harrying of the North was a response to the strong resistance to Norman rule shown by the Northumbrian (mainly Danes) people. It was sparked by the murder of William’s newly-appointed earl, Robert de Comines, in 1069.

Following the Harrying of the North, many of the key positions formerly held by the Anglo-Saxon aristocracy were given to Normans. However, despite the creation of a new Norman elite,Anglo Saxon attitude remained stoic.

As a result of this depopulation, Norman landowners sought settlers to work in the fields. Evidence suggests that such barons were willing to rent lands to any men not obviously disloyal. Unlike the Vikings in the centuries before, Normans did not settle wholesale in the shires, but only occupied the upper ranks of society.

This allowed an Anglo-Scandinavian culture to survive beneath Norman rule. Evidence for this continuity can be seen in the retention of many cultural customs


Regards

Jim
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SJ
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Re: 950th Nniversary of the Battle of Hastings in 1066
Posted on: 10/17/2016 9:35:01 AM
Some years ago I visited the ACW Shiloh battlefield. One of the staff gave me an interesting take on Anglo-Saxon and Norman "feuding". He made it sound like the Hatfield-McCoy dispute.

"1066 the Saxons faced off the Normans, The Normans became the aristocratic elite of England. A few hundred years later, they faced off again as Roundheads and Cavaliers in the English Civil War. After the war, the Roundhead Puritans sailed for the New World. They settled in New England. The descendants of the Cavaliers were back in power after the Restoration of Charles II. Many of these Cavaliers acquired vast estates in Virginia and the Carolinas. 1861 and guess what? Them Anglo-Saxon and Normans boys were at it again"....

I did not ask the Shiloh curator for footnoted citation. However as I sat that evening and watched the sunset over the Tennessee River from Pickwick Landing I did wonder, if one had access to good battlefield archaeology,the latest DNA tech, and viable human remains.....could indeed a link be traced between those combatants at Hastings, Nasby and ...fields like Bull Run and Shiloh?

 (???? - 1799 AD) Pre-19th Century Battles    
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