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 (???? - 1799 AD) Pre-19th Century Battles    
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anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 5963
http:// 82.44.47.99
King John (Lackland) and Magna Carta
Posted on: 10/17/2016 11:24:40 AM


Quote:
Magna Carta, meaning ‘The Great Charter’, is one of the most famous documents in the world. Originally issued by King John of England (r.1199-1216) as a practical solution to the political crisis he faced in 1215, Magna Carta established for the first time the principle that everybody, including the king, was subject to the law.

Although nearly a third of the text was deleted or substantially rewritten within ten years, and almost all the clauses have been repealed in modern times, Magna Carta remains a cornerstone of the British constitution.

Most of the 63 clauses granted by King John dealt with specific grievances relating to his rule. However, buried within them were a number of fundamental values that both challenged the autocracy of the king and proved highly adaptable in future centuries. Most famously, the 39th clause gave all ‘free men’ the right to justice and a fair trial.

Some of Magna Carta’s core principles are echoed in the United States Bill of Rights (1791) and in many other constitutional documents around the world, as well as in the Universal Declaration of Human Rights (1948) and the European Convention on Human Rights (1950).


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What brought about this exceptional piece of English History????

Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

Éireann_Ascendant
Dublin, Ireland
New User
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Posts: 16
https://erinascendantwordpress.wordpress.com/
Re: King John (Lackland) and Magna Carta
Posted on: 12/14/2016 6:10:53 PM
Essentially, no one liked King John and were fed up with how he kept breaking the time-honoured-but-unwritten rules to suit himself and screw everyone else over.

The Magna Carta was an attempt to clarify what the king could - and, most importantly couldn't - do.

There's been some revisionist attempts in recent years to paint John was not simply a bad king, but an unlucky one with some good points, but the contemporary sources are all clear that he was the pits.

scoucer
Berlin, Germany
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 1924

Re: King John (Lackland) and Magna Carta
Posted on: 12/15/2016 2:51:13 AM

Quote:
Essentially, no one liked King John and were fed up with how he kept breaking the time-honoured-but-unwritten rules to himself.

The Magna Carta was an attempt to clarify what the king could - and, most importantly couldn't - do.

There's been some revisionist attempts in recent years to paint John was not simply a bad king, but an unlucky one with some good points, but the contemporary sources are all clear that he was the pits.
--Éireann_Ascendant


And which rules were these then ?

Contemporary sources would be wouldn't they ?

Trevor
---------------
`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie

Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.

Éireann_Ascendant
Dublin, Ireland
New User
E-2 Private


Posts: 16
https://erinascendantwordpress.wordpress.com/
Re: King John (Lackland) and Magna Carta
Posted on: 12/15/2016 4:20:11 AM

Quote:
And which rules were these then ?


Basically, don't mess with your vassals without good reason, and John was doing a lot of messing.

He starved to death the wife and child of one of his men, William de Braose, and this was the family of someone who had previously been a favourite of his. If John could do that to his friends, why should anyone else trust him?

Add to this his heavy taxation for wars in France which he proceeded to lose anyway.

Better to be feared than loved, as Machiavelli, said, but if a king isn't either, then he has problems (and a rebellion on his hands).


Quote:
Contemporary sources would be wouldn't they ?

Trevor
--scoucer


Even the contemporary History of William Marshal says John was no good as a king or as a person. This being a celebratory biography of one of John's top followers, you'd expect this to good thing to say about its hero's master, but nope.

scoucer
Berlin, Germany
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 1924

Re: King John (Lackland) and Magna Carta
Posted on: 12/15/2016 4:27:15 AM
I blame his wife from Provence. And he came from one of the most messed up families in history.

Trevor
---------------
`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie

Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 5963
http:// 82.44.47.99
Re: King John (Lackland) and Magna Carta
Posted on: 12/15/2016 4:34:35 AM
He was also lecherous: several nobles are reported to have taken up arms against him because he had forced himself on their wives and daughters.
Most of all, John was shockingly cruel.

In a chivalrous age, when aristocrats spared their enemies, capturing them rather than killing them, John preferred to do away with people by grisly means. On one occasion, for example, he ordered 22 captive knights to be taken to Corfe Castle in Dorset and starved to death.

Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

scoucer
Berlin, Germany
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 1924

Re: King John (Lackland) and Magna Carta
Posted on: 12/15/2016 4:57:09 AM

Quote:
He was also lecherous: several nobles are reported to have taken up arms against him because he had forced himself on their wives and daughters.
Most of all, John was shockingly cruel.

In a chivalrous age, when aristocrats spared their enemies, capturing them rather than killing them, John preferred to do away with people by grisly means. On one occasion, for example, he ordered 22 captive knights to be taken to Corfe Castle in Dorset and starved to death.

Regards

Jim
--anemone


What chivalrous age ? The Norman/Plantagenet dynasty were all pretty cruel and perverse and certainly today seen as full of a whole range of psychopathology. The "chivalry" was an invention of Sir Walter Scott.

Trevor
---------------
`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie

Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 5963
http:// 82.44.47.99
Re: King John (Lackland) and Magna Carta
Posted on: 12/15/2016 5:32:56 AM
"In ANY chivalrous age" does not imply that John Lackland's age was chivalrous Trevor-if I may be so bold.It's the way I tell 'em.

Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

scoucer
Berlin, Germany
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 1924

Re: King John (Lackland) and Magna Carta
Posted on: 12/15/2016 6:57:18 AM
Jim,

Particularly at a time when ethnic nationalism is being wipped up, I am very sensitive to any kind of romantisized , "Gone with the Wind" , de-sentisized glorification of some mythical "golden age" conjured up from past. The past was brutal and there was very little romance or glory.

Trevor
---------------
`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie

Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 5963
http:// 82.44.47.99
Re: King John (Lackland) and Magna Carta
Posted on: 12/15/2016 7:11:56 AM
I am totally behind you on this tack Trevor-the Middle Ages and beyond in British history is- without doubt -Brutal!!!


Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

Éireann_Ascendant
Dublin, Ireland
New User
E-2 Private


Posts: 16
https://erinascendantwordpress.wordpress.com/
Re: King John (Lackland) and Magna Carta
Posted on: 12/15/2016 7:00:42 PM

Quote:
"In ANY chivalrous age" does not imply that John Lackland's age was chivalrous Trevor-if I may be so bold.It's the way I tell 'em.

Regards

Jim
--anemone


Perhaps 'mutual respect' is a more accurate term than chivalry, which is what chivalry was originally all about - a code of how to treat people, particularly your peers.

A king could demand a lot from his vassals as long as it was seen to be within the boundaries, but once he crossed a certain line...

Even that arch-cynic Machiavelli warned against rulers intruding upon certain aspects of their subjects' lives, namely women and property. Do anything else you want, but touch either of those essentials, and even passive servants will become rebels.

 (???? - 1799 AD) Pre-19th Century Battles    
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