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azita
Posts: 251
 | | 1980: Tehran hostage rescue mission fails | | Posted on: 4/24/2010 6:21:53 AM | 30 years ago!
[Read More]
Well, not sure what to say, just that Iran - US relations haven't thawed much in 30 yrs have they.
Do you think that this failed rescue, plays a large part in the US mind set toward Iran?
I think that the failure is seen by many Iranians as the will of God.
I do find the reaction of Many European nations rather interesting, was there perhaps some sympathy toward Iran over the Embassy siege?
certainly much of the documents found in the Embassy were very informative, there is one (i think) from a CIA director discussing a full Invasion of Iran.
Do you hold and credit to the "October surprise" idea?
Azita
link fixed
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I did never know so full a voice issue from so empty a heart: but the saying is true 'The empty vessel makes the greatest sound'.
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| George
Haliburton, ON, Canada
Posts: 1351
| | Re: 1980: Tehran hostage rescue mission fails | | Posted on: 4/24/2010 7:11:12 AM | Hello Azita,
I am having trouble opening your attachment.
George
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| George
Haliburton, ON, Canada
Posts: 1351
| | Re: 1980: Tehran hostage rescue mission fails | | Posted on: 4/24/2010 7:32:58 AM | Hello Azita,
I don't know about the Europeans but there was little sympathy in Canada for the Iranians.
They had allowed students to invade the sovereign territory of the USA on Nov. 4, 1979.
Held hostage were diplomats and CIA people and other intelligence gathering people.
This lead to the so called "Canadian Caper" in which a few Americans were hidden in the Canadian embassy by our ambassador Ken Taylor. They were flown out on Jan. 27, 1980 using false Canadian passports.
Canada basked in the glow of praise from our American allies. Some books were written suggesting that Taylor had become the eyes and ears of the CIA in Iran and that his actions compromised Canada's relations with Iran.
Canadians viewed Iran as a lawless state. That would be the view of the average citizen on the street at the time. We still look askance at any country that violates the diplomatic space of another.
That is not to say that Iran did not have legitimate complaints against the USA but the hostage taking was one step beyond dissatisfaction and intolerable.
Cheers,
George
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| azita
Posts: 251
| | Re: 1980: Tehran hostage rescue mission fails | | Posted on: 4/24/2010 9:38:20 AM | Indeed George, i suppose an issue is, whether it is acceptable for one nation to instigate a coup in another, thus violating "sovereign territory" an act considered "beyond dissatisfaction and intolerable."
If it is, then is it not also acceptable to "invade the sovereign territory" of that nation in the form of its Embassy in return?
Azita
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I did never know so full a voice issue from so empty a heart: but the saying is true 'The empty vessel makes the greatest sound'.
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| George
Haliburton, ON, Canada
Posts: 1351
| | Re: 1980: Tehran hostage rescue mission fails | | Posted on: 4/24/2010 10:06:59 AM | It depends upon how you define "invade". The cynical side of me says that my country, a rather benign one, is being spied upon in whatever form you choose by any number of nations. We had a scandal many years ago because the Soviets had contacts within our government (Gouzenko affair, I think). The Chinese steal industrial secrets. We are concerned that some nations who practise Islam are sponsoring groups and individuals to corrupt our Canadian Muslim youth. All of this is unacceptable yet most of the world plods on using diplomacy and counter measures to eliminate the problems. They do not attack embassies.
If there is any reason for the invasion of a foreign embassy it had better be a good one. Normal diplomatic protocol says that you dismiss representatives of a government who violates your laws.
What would a group of Iranian students know about a possible invasion by the USA? Is there compelling evidence that a US invasion was imminent. I believe that the assault on the US embassy was orchestrated by higher Iranian powers or at least, they did nothing to stop the action.
I also find hostage taking to be at least an uncivilized act as well as criminal in nature.
Cheers,
George
PS. Why can't I open your attachment from the previous post? Is it just me and my computer and my limited skill level? I would like to read it to provide context within the discussion
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| Dave G
Halifax, NS, Canada
Posts: 400
| | Re: 1980: Tehran hostage rescue mission fails | | Posted on: 4/26/2010 12:18:05 PM |
Quote:PS. Why can't I open your attachment from the previous post? Is it just me and my computer and my limited skill level? I would like to read it to provide context within the discussion
--George
Worked for me - try the copy & paste method:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/april/25/newsid_2503000/2503899.stm
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Dave G
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| George
Haliburton, ON, Canada
Posts: 1351
| | Re: 1980: Tehran hostage rescue mission fails | | Posted on: 4/26/2010 12:24:39 PM | Thanks Dave. I tried it again and it came up this time. Whatever was going on the other day is beyond my technical competency.
George
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| brian grafton
Victoria, BC, Canada
Posts: 2136
| | Re: 1980: Tehran hostage rescue mission fails | | Posted on: 4/26/2010 8:24:13 PM | Azita, I think George's comments pretty much sum up Canada's attitude toward the seizure of the US Embassy at the time (1979-80). A lot of ink could be spilled over that, but we are thirty years further along.
To your question "Do you think that this failed rescue, plays a large part in the US mind set toward Iran?", I would answer "no". The failed rescue may have played a part in the 1980 US presidential election (one more example where Mr Carter was seen to have failed). But the issues which established what you call the "US mind set" hinge on much larger issues than a failed rescue plan. I think – and these are very visceral comments on my part – that the US was affronted by the rejection of the Shah, and of the rejection of US support that implied. I think the US was unprepared for the power of Islamic belief that was unleashed by the return of Imam Khomenai (?Spelling?). I think the US was frightened by the excess anti-Americanism that was displayed. And I think the US was very concerned about how the Islamic revolution of 1979 might affect the balance of power in the Middle East, while still in the middle of a Cold War and with Iranian oil reserves no longer under their sway.
To your comment "I think that the failure is seen by many Iranians as the will of God." I've got to question your use of the present tense: "is seen", rather than "was seen". That it may have been seen as such in 1980 is one thing. That it continues to be seen as such in 2010 is another.
I assume we're talking about that wonderful Islamic expression which is almost impossible to translate into English (the rendering I'm most familiar with is "Insh'allah" – "if Allah wills it!"). I was recently told that for Persians the expression is one of optimism, but for Arabs it is one of pessimism, which struck me as either a subtle dig against Arabs (I heard this from a Persian) or a subtle distinction between Shiia and Sunni Muslims.
Just some thoughts, Azita, and I could go on. But I'm in the middle of a Pacific gale, and expect to lose my electrical power soon.
Cheers
Brian G
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"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly.
"The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
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| azita
Posts: 251
| | Re: 1980: Tehran hostage rescue mission fails | | Posted on: 4/27/2010 12:08:29 PM | does my using the term "US mind set" read as derogatory? I hope not is isn't meant to be.
Ok, can i be blunt, as the rescue was such a disaster, is there an "ass whooping" still owned to Iran? 
the anti-Americanism displayed in Iran in 1979 was visceral. much of course was over the 1953 coup, but I think most was stirred up as an "excuse" for the revolution, (cant quite find the right word here)
Is or was seen as the will of god, both still I'm afraid, don't forget the Islamic faith has a strong sense of Predestination, Qadar.
Insha'Allah. the same justification as the Christian phrase "its gods will"
strangely i think that the christian faith has a stronger Belief in a Divine Predestined future for mankind then Islam!
Brian, I Hope the gale has passed, but remember its all gods fault
Azita
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I did never know so full a voice issue from so empty a heart: but the saying is true 'The empty vessel makes the greatest sound'.
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| George
Haliburton, ON, Canada
Posts: 1351
| | Re: 1980: Tehran hostage rescue mission fails | | Posted on: 4/27/2010 2:57:22 PM | Hello Azita,
Just to be clear, are you suggesting that the US has a long memory and that current dissatisfaction with the Iranian regime has something to do with a 30 year old embassy seizure?
If so, I suppose it is possible but the current situation in Iran has many countries troubled. Of course it has to do with nuclear weapons in the hands of Iranian leaders who portray themselves as somewhat unstable, at least by western standards.
I have questioned the attitude that the US has toward Cuba, for instance. The trade sanctions have gone on far too long from my perspective but I cannot believe that the US is seeking revenge against Iran for a past indiscretion.
They have too much on their plate right now and certainly Iran is providing sufficient motivation right now to be of concern. They have made themselves a target and the term "rogue" state may not be too harsh. North Korea falls under the same category.
As to your comments about predestination and the terms, "Insha'Allah or It's gods will", my uninformed sense is that there are far more Muslims who believe more strongly in that philosophy than Christians. Of course, there are fundamentalists Christians who may believe it but I suggest that they are a rare breed. Is it the same in Islam? My perception is that it is not though it appears to vary from country to country.
Most westerners would find it an oddity to hear someone say, "It's God's will". It is somewhat anachronistic. Do practitioners of Islam utter this phrase regularly? Is it part of regular speech? Does it really mean anything or is it a throwaway phrase, a filler?
Cheers,
George
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| azita
Posts: 251
| | Re: 1980: Tehran hostage rescue mission fails | | Posted on: 4/27/2010 4:00:14 PM | Well, George I think perhaps I am hinting that the PART of the USA animosity toward Iran, is down to this unfinished score.
Equally I think that the Religious leaders of Iran, Do see their defiance of the USA as a god given cause.
BUT this only because of US support of Israel.
Lets be honest, its not the fact that Iran has Nuclear designs that bothers the USA, its "a Grudge" issue, would Iran use them in a way to "pay back" this grudge.
If it were the "fear of nuclear proliferation" then Korea, South Africa, France, Israel would surely come under the same US spot light, and as for Pakistan, well If any nation is going to use ( or "misplace") those weapons, I think it will be them.
As for gods will, Sorry but I don't agree that Islam has more than Christian predestination, the whole Judea/Christian bible is about Predestination, Errr Revelation!!??
But as you say it VERY much depends on which nation you sit in.
Can i add to your comment about Insha'Allah, how often do Christians say Amen? ( same meaning)
I'm being naughty here, but I hope you get my point.
As for a filler Of course it is, you know even I say it occasionally.
But also, well, can I tie in one of my favourite quotes by Ernie Pyle, "There are no atheists in foxholes"
If in doubt or trouble pray to god......
Azita
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I did never know so full a voice issue from so empty a heart: but the saying is true 'The empty vessel makes the greatest sound'.
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| Johnny McDowell
Wichita Falls, TX, USA
Posts: 391
| | Re: 1980: Tehran hostage rescue mission fails | | Posted on: 4/27/2010 4:31:12 PM | Careful Azita, your not hiding you anti-Americanism very well in your last post.
J.Mac.
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| azita
Posts: 251
| | Re: 1980: Tehran hostage rescue mission fails | | Posted on: 4/27/2010 4:32:59 PM | Wow!! a paranoid Texan!!
Please don't be rude to me, rather contribute to the discussion, well, if you can.
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I did never know so full a voice issue from so empty a heart: but the saying is true 'The empty vessel makes the greatest sound'.
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| Johnny McDowell
Wichita Falls, TX, USA
Posts: 391
| | Re: 1980: Tehran hostage rescue mission fails | | Posted on: 4/27/2010 4:35:50 PM | I'm the only American contributing on an American pointed thread. What does that tell you OL wise one?
J.Mac.
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| Johnny McDowell
Wichita Falls, TX, USA
Posts: 391
| | Re: 1980: Tehran hostage rescue mission fails | | Posted on: 4/27/2010 4:37:41 PM | I would only get paranoid if I was on a plane setting next to you.
J.Mac.
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| Sgt. Saunders
West Palm Beach, FL, USA
Posts: 286
| | Re: 1980: Tehran hostage rescue mission fails | | Posted on: 4/27/2010 4:46:22 PM | Hello Azita,
I would very respectfully submit that the failure of Operation Eagle Claw has practically nothing to do with current U.S. policy toward Iran. After all, Eagle Claw did not fail because of Iranian military intervention against U.S. forces. It was aborted because mechanical failure resulted in too few helicopters available to execute the mission- and the U.S. casualties were the result of an accident caused almost certainly by pilot fatigue. In fact, the Iranians didn't even know that the mission had even been attempted until the next day.
On the other hand, perhaps the fact that American citizens were held for 444 days may have something to do with current U.S. policy. Just how much is a good question.
Regards,
Sgt.
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"The beginning of the end of war lies in remembrance".- Herman Wouk
"Is it because they are lucky that great men become great? No- but, being great, they have been able to master luck... What is luck? The ability to exploit accidents"- Napoleon
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| George
Haliburton, ON, Canada
Posts: 1351
| | Re: 1980: Tehran hostage rescue mission fails | | Posted on: 4/27/2010 4:58:49 PM | Hello Azita,
I may be naive but I now that the nuclear cat is out of the bag and ownership of weapons is a fact of life, I don't think that the embassy invasion is much on the minds of the US. Oh, I have no doubt that it bothers some, just as Castro's power grab may bother them.
I just feel that if Iran was now an ally of the US, all would be forgiven. After all, the USA and Britain seem to be on the same track despite decades of animosity. In a sense, the conflict with Iran is simply on going and certainly the stakes are higher right now.
I think that all countries with nuclear weapons are on a watch list and for those of us who do not use nuclear power for defence, well, we watch even more carefully.
And I believe that all the nuclear weapons countries watch each other.
What are they looking for? Undoubtedly some sign that the other guys are responsible owners of such a power. Whom do you you trust?
Iran and North Korea have indicated that they may pose a danger to world peace.
I have no doubt that Pakistan is watched very closely because it is a state in turmoil.
On the other topic of religion, the influence of fundamentalism varies from country to country. Some are full blown theocracies though I cannot think of a Christian theocracy.
Others separate church and state completely.
I was simply wondering whether the use of a phrase like Insha'Allah had more significance than "Amen".
Cheers,
George
Cheers,
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| George
Haliburton, ON, Canada
Posts: 1351
| | Re: 1980: Tehran hostage rescue mission fails | | Posted on: 4/27/2010 5:20:35 PM | Hello Johnny,
I don't think that Azita was demonstrating anti-Americanism. And lest I appear disingenuous, I was one of the first to query Azita about her frame of reference which should be irrelevant on a history forum.
She seems convinced that the US can hold grudges. I don't know whether you agree with that or not. Has the US ever looked for a bit of "payback" in its history? I don't know the answer either. It may be worthy of discussion with a broader stroke. Have any large powers engaged in "payback"?
She may have problems with parts of US foreign policy but she is well able to speak for herself. That in itself doesn't make someone anti-American.
I'm suggesting that there is no time to settle old scores with Iran because of the nuclear trump card. Azita just disagrees.
You know, I've been ticked off with the US now and again. I remember being really upset when we were having an argument over softwood lumber and the US refused to comply with the NAFTA ruling to stop imposing tariffs. But that doesn't mean that I am anti-American. And the US didn't return the money that they took illegally. And my country caved and cut a deal which was not in our favour. Still, I don't hate the US viscerally because she exists. That would be irrational. A specific criticism of something the US does or is doing does not an anti-American make.
Now I know that Canada and the US have a different and perhaps special relationship so perhaps my example doesn't register on the radar.
I just think that other people can disagree with another country's policies and not be anti- (fill in the blank).
Cheers,
George
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| John R. Price
Wilkes-Barre, PA, USA
Posts: 848
| | Re: 1980: Tehran hostage rescue mission fails | | Posted on: 4/27/2010 6:46:20 PM | George,
"Have any large powers engaged in patback?" Of course they have or the Treaty of Versaille wouldn't be considered a cause in the start of WWII.
You said Azita "seems convinced the US can hold grudges" yet you don't even blink when she gives proof that Iran does hold grudges. Doesn't she say that part of the reason why the hostages were taken was the 1953 coup? I wonder what kind of grudge the Iranians would be holding against the Russians if the Russians had acted first in 1953? Maybe she should check out some examples of Russian occupation policy in Eastern Europe and Afghanistan or what happebed when Saigon fell. I'm not for a second trying to say that US policy during the Cold War was mistake free but the alternative was a death sentence to anyone who could pose the slightest threat such as doctors, lawyers, teachers and every other educated individual who refused to submitt.
I agree disagreement with a policy isn't being anti-American but when there doesn't seem to be a single policy which the person agrees with and the person refuses to discuss policy in the context of ongoing world affairs such as the world wide Cold War what other conclusion is there?
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A battle long forgotten by our country in a war never understood by our country.
"to satisfy our endless needs and justify our bloody deeds, in the name of destiny and in the name of God"
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| brian grafton
Victoria, BC, Canada
Posts: 2136
| | Re: 1980: Tehran hostage rescue mission fails | | Posted on: 4/27/2010 6:50:51 PM | JohnnyMac, try to keep the paranoia in check. Who knows, you may have sat beside Azita on any number of flights! 
Cheers
Brian G
---------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly.
"The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
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| brian grafton
Victoria, BC, Canada
Posts: 2136
| | Re: 1980: Tehran hostage rescue mission fails | | Posted on: 4/27/2010 7:32:29 PM | Sgt., I'm in agreement. The failure of the mission to rescue the hostages was an American failure rather than an Iranian success, and although there were probably repercussions in the US military for an exercise which was poorly planned and executed, I don't think that failure explains US antagonism towards Iran.
The holding of American hostages for all those days has a much better chance of playing a part in current US policy, I agree. But I think that the key is the 1979 rejection of a US-backed Shah, despite US support from the mid-1940s on, that may still rest behind current US policy.
Like any natiion, and particularly any powerful nation, loss of control often equals loss of power. And when (in 1979 terms) a very small nation rejects emphatically a large, powerful nation, the big guy ain't gonna be pleased. Though this is beyond the scope of the current thread, I think a similar case might be made concerning Cuba.
John R raises some decent points, IMHO. The US did play a significant role in keeping Iran under the shield of the West, and for the most part it is undoubtedly "nicer" to be under a western shield than a then-Soviet shield. But I think there is always a "quid pro quo" in such circumstances. Without suggesting I have a crystal ball, or even a "hindsight crystal ball", there is the possibility that the Shah turned a blind eye to Muslim sentiment in his country, leading to the eruptions of 1978-9.
Azita, thanks for correcting my misspelling of "Insha'Allah". Personally, I don't believe it is equivalent to "Amen", but exact translations ain't the real issue on this thread, are they? Whether "Insha'Allah" defines Iranians' views, or "the Will of God" defines Westerners' views, isn't the issue. The issue is whether Iran's growing desire for influence in the mid-East should be accommodated by nations which are striving so hard to maintain the status quo.
Cheers
Brian G
---------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly.
"The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
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| azita
Posts: 251
| | Re: 1980: Tehran hostage rescue mission fails | | Posted on: 4/27/2010 7:34:21 PM | i am deeply offended by the comment:-
Quote:I would only get paranoid if I was on a plane setting next to you.
J.Mac.
--Johnny McDowell
I do so want to return that venom, but, Isn't that EXACTLY the issue Iran and USA face?
Sgt. Saunders, you are of course totally right in what you say about the mission failure.
i concur about US outrage of the embassy taking.
I was narrow banding my comments to the rescue as it was an anniversary.
The anger the US must/Do feel about this situation is totally understandable. Is the Iranian anger over the 1953 coup also understandable?
George, as always you make so much sense.
Quote:. Whom do you you trust? --George
Well Sir, if you ask me personally, i say, No one.
Regarding Insha'Allah and "Amen". i confess to ignorance, all i meant was that both Islam and christianity share the same. err, mantra( ?)
Mr Price, I have said that i am NOT in favour of the USSR or Communism several times here.
Quote:"Have any large powers engaged in payback?" --John R. Price
May i say that ALL have done so, i did merely ASK, if this event was an example pertaining to the USA.
Please note that I wasn't even critical!!!!
BUT, yes i do ask, if the USA , can stage a coup in 1953, and that be deemed "correct". then is not the embassy siege also justified?
Question, rather than statement.
Quote:the person agrees with and the person refuses to discuss policy in the context of ongoing world affairs such as the world wide Cold War what other conclusion is there?--John R. Price
please, that really isn't fair, I have done so many times.
I do confess some confusion as to where you (and others) place me, McDowell seems to think im a hijacker or terrorist.
I find myself genuinely injured by the hostility shown to me.
Azita
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I did never know so full a voice issue from so empty a heart: but the saying is true 'The empty vessel makes the greatest sound'.
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| John R. Price
Wilkes-Barre, PA, USA
Posts: 848
| | Re: 1980: Tehran hostage rescue mission fails | | Posted on: 4/27/2010 8:32:41 PM | Azita,
In 1953 drilling for and exporting oil is basically the Iranian economy but just about everything needed to drill for oil and connected to the export of oil has to be imported from one of three countries, UK, US or USSR. You are kicking the UK out so there are only two countries left which can supply what Iran needs so again I ask why would the US even think about instigateing a coup if the then prime minister wasn't at least giving the impression that the USSR was a viable option to the US?
The embassy wasn't under 'siege" it was taken over by agents of the revelution and new revelutionary government and all US citizens captured were held hostage for well over a year.
With all due respect you discuss up to a point. For example you won't concede that if Iran had fallen under the Soviet sphere of influence in 53 then the Cold war becomes that much longer and that much harder for the West to win. You won't even contemplate the hardships that would have fallen on countless millions in the West and Mid East if the Soviets control Iran and Iranian oil from 53 onward.
I don't think your a terrorist and in all honesty I don't think I've been hostile to you. You bring a different perspective than most have here and because you do I think you should expect challenges to that perspective. I don't think your perspective is 100% wrong and I don't think mine is 100% right and really hope that the discussion of both continues because if we can't keep it going here what chance is there in the real world.
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A battle long forgotten by our country in a war never understood by our country.
"to satisfy our endless needs and justify our bloody deeds, in the name of destiny and in the name of God"
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| azita
Posts: 251
| | Re: 1980: Tehran hostage rescue mission fails | | Posted on: 4/27/2010 9:13:15 PM |
Quote: You are kicking the UK out so there are only two countries left --John R. Price
Who is this "you" that you speak of?
Quote:The embassy wasn't under 'siege" --John R. Price
ok, if you like, that was poor choice of words.
Quote:. For example you won't concede that if Iran had fallen under the Soviet sphere of influence in 53 then the Cold war becomes that much longer --John R. Price
Sigh! i think i have done just that SEVERAL TIMES in the past.
But Iran was NOT, repeat Not going to "side" wide the Soviets in 1953, Iran would have rather "sided" with the USA
Quote: You won't even contemplate the hardships that would have fallen on countless millions in the West and Mid East if the Soviets control Iran and Iranian oil from 53 onward. --John R. Price
Again, i think i have said the EXACT opposite in other threads.
But i ask, By the standards set, If, the US coup in 1953 was justified, was not the "occupation" of the US embassy also justified?
I have not stated personal opinion, i simply ask.
Quote:100% right --John R. Price
Ohh! if only "we" could get that
Azita
PS:can i go to bed now!?
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I did never know so full a voice issue from so empty a heart: but the saying is true 'The empty vessel makes the greatest sound'.
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| George
Haliburton, ON, Canada
Posts: 1351
| | Re: 1980: Tehran hostage rescue mission fails | | Posted on: 4/27/2010 10:24:09 PM | Hello John,
I'm not sure that the Treaty of Versailles is the best example of pay back though it obviously was more a dictate of terms of capitulation rather than an armistice. I was thinking more about a powerful country indicating in no uncertain terms that a smaller country had better realize its place. Perhaps the relationship between Georgia and Russia is a better example.
I also think that I indicated clearly my opinion of the hostage taking incident. I am not yet convinced that Azita thinks that it was justified. I think that she wants to discuss the issue.
We could spend a lot of time discussing the antecedent conditions that lead to WW1 without rancour because enough time has passed. But it is difficult to discuss the Iranian mindset that would cause them to do something that most western countries would revile. And it is more difficult if you come from the country whose embassy was invaded.
What could drive a country to do something that is so off side and beyond accepted diplomatic relations? Is it more than just a cultural divide?
Cheers,
George
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| John R. Price
Wilkes-Barre, PA, USA
Posts: 848
| | Re: 1980: Tehran hostage rescue mission fails | | Posted on: 4/28/2010 12:50:14 AM | Azita,
Where is the greater good for the hundreds of millions in the taking of the Embassy and the holding of all US citizen captured within for over a year? I'd even like to know how in the short or long term it was benificial to the people of Iran?
You say that Iran wouldn't have sided with the Soviets and maybe I might agree that with hindsight that might be the case but the decision makers of the time don't have the knowledge that hindsight offers. The evidence at the time shows the prime minister was beyond doubt a socialist, many surrounding him were communists and he had opened negotiations with the Russians. While the facts were that Iran had to either turn to the US or Russia once they kick the UK out of their oil business.
Iran a poor choice of words but given your lack of location and the views you have given in discussion...
---------------
A battle long forgotten by our country in a war never understood by our country.
"to satisfy our endless needs and justify our bloody deeds, in the name of destiny and in the name of God"
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| azita
Posts: 251
| | Re: 1980: Tehran hostage rescue mission fails | | Posted on: 4/28/2010 8:12:17 AM |
Quote:Where is the greater good for the hundreds of millions in the taking of the Embassy --John R. Price
Well, i don't think there is any "good", It just showed the USA how angry Iranians were at them.
The real mistake was for them to think the USA would care about their grievances.
The so called "evidence at the time" was falsified by the British.
Yes many in the Iranian government did have channels to the USSR, that is how they finally got Soviets troops out of Iran, THEN rejected a soviet -iranian oil deal.
Quote:Iran a poor choice of words but given your lack of location and the views you have given in discussion...
--John R. Price
Mr Price, would you sit next to me on a plane?
Azita
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I did never know so full a voice issue from so empty a heart: but the saying is true 'The empty vessel makes the greatest sound'.
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| Johnny McDowell
Wichita Falls, TX, USA
Posts: 391
| | Re: 1980: Tehran hostage rescue mission fails | | Posted on: 4/28/2010 12:00:11 PM | One of my very best friends is Persian (Iranian). He was here in college in the late 70's. When these religious zelots took our people hostage. Most of his family was murdured. He's a U.S. citizen now, and has been for many years. Many suffered by the Iranian revolution then and now.
J.Mac.
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| John R. Price
Wilkes-Barre, PA, USA
Posts: 848
| | Re: 1980: Tehran hostage rescue mission fails | | Posted on: 4/28/2010 12:53:55 PM | Azita,
Missplaced anger isn't a justification. The Shah and his backers ran the government and committed the acts real and precieved against the Iranian people. They did so to enrich themselves and to retain power not at the command of the US.
The real mistake was in thinking that intimidation and blackmail would work better than discussion and negotiation.
Can you say without the benifit of hindsight and without a shadow of doubt that the US leadership knew at the time what was falsified by the British and what wasn't?
Why do you refuse to scknowledge that there was a active Communist party in Iran and than many of the leadership of that Communist Party were members of the government in 1953? Initial rejection is commonplace between countries and corporation but that initial rejection doesn't mean a deal isn't going to happen.
If your talking about the Soviet troops that occupied parts of Iran during WWII I think you better check again as to the deals made to get them out and who made the deals.
If you can get medical science to find a way to get me healthy enough to fly are you buying the ticket and where are we going?
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A battle long forgotten by our country in a war never understood by our country.
"to satisfy our endless needs and justify our bloody deeds, in the name of destiny and in the name of God"
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| azita
Posts: 251
| | Re: 1980: Tehran hostage rescue mission fails | | Posted on: 4/28/2010 2:36:29 PM | Yes, But the Shah was seen as a US construct/puppet, whatever.
His abuses are indeed many, this was/is seen as another grievance Against the USA, in the America in supporting the Shah, was supporting these abuses. hence the anger and Embassy siege. ( must say that i persoannly, think that is rather unfair)
I cant say that the False evidence was known to the USA, in fact i would suspect it was believed, apart from a few US officials that argued against the coup.
Im not saying the USA didn't act in what it believed was the "best" way, just that Perhaps some sort of acceptance that it was a mistake.
Madeleine K. Albright did say:-
"The Eisenhower administration believed its actions were justified for strategic reasons. ... But the coup was clearly a setback for Iran's political development. And it is easy to see now why many Iranians continue to resent this intervention by America in their internal affairs"
But with the ever moderate Ali Hoseyni Khāmene’i really does what he can to offer the hand of friendship and peace to the USA...... ( i hope my use of irony is improving)
I don't refuse to accept an Iranian communist party (did I?) But as i keep saying Iran was not going to bed with the USSR, they wanted you evil Christian despots (attempt at humour there).
The 1941 anglo-soviet invasion of Iran, was probably "justified"
The Soviet refusal to withdraw , was not.
To get the Soviets out Of Iran, the Government promised the Soviets an oil deal. after they withdrew this deal was, cancelled.
Azerbaijan was as scary to Iran as it was the USA
As for flying, i haven't been to the USA for a few years, if i go back to work next year, i suspect i might accrue a few air miles in your country's borders.
I'm not going to Pennsylvania its full of mushrooms!! 
So much to see in the USA, all i ever got to see was New York, must say that i do prefer the old one...........
Azita
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I did never know so full a voice issue from so empty a heart: but the saying is true 'The empty vessel makes the greatest sound'.
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| John R. Price
Wilkes-Barre, PA, USA
Posts: 848
| | Re: 1980: Tehran hostage rescue mission fails | | Posted on: 4/28/2010 8:13:23 PM | Azita,
What is rather unfair my perception or that the US has to pay for the crimes of the Shah?
I don't understand because if Albright did say that as either US Ambassitor to the UN or Sec of State you and the Iranian people have already gotten what your asking for.
You can't say what would have happen if the US doesn't back the coup.
As for 1941 who do you think is pressureing the Soviets to accept a deal and once that deal is canceled who's military is it that makes the Soviets think twice about taking what they want by force? I'll give you a hint it wasn't anybody in the Iranian government and it wasn't the Iranian military.
Thats the first time I ever heard mushrooms used as a excuse not to go to PA.
I use to make the St Pat's Day Parade semi regularly and there was always at least three or four trips to the House that Ruth Built in the Bronx every year since i graduated high school. Add in a trip a year to see ND play in the Garden and at leat ten trips to see Springsteen over the years and at least a couple of dozen more to see other bands. New York is still a hell of a town but i agree I liked the skyline a whole lot better last century.
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A battle long forgotten by our country in a war never understood by our country.
"to satisfy our endless needs and justify our bloody deeds, in the name of destiny and in the name of God"
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| azita
Posts: 251
| | Re: 1980: Tehran hostage rescue mission fails | | Posted on: 4/29/2010 3:47:19 AM |
Quote:Azita,What is rather unfair my perception or that the US has to pay for the crimes of the Shah?--John R. Price
oh most definitely that the USA is blamed for the Shahs tyranny is not fair.
Quote:you and the Iranian people have already gotten what your asking for. --John R. Price
that word "you" again , I dont need/or want an apology. Besides 1953!! Im not that old!!
As you say If the US secretary of state can say that Iran and the US should well be on the reconciliation road over 1953 shouldn't they, which is why i indicated Ali Hoseyni Khāmene’i attitude.
The pressure on the soviets to quit Iran was indeed both by the UK and USA, Quite right too, but it was the oil deal that moved them.
Can i please say that, some here pigeon hole me and my personal attitudes rather inaccurately, I know I'm not forthcoming with personal details which as you say doesnt help dispel images.
For the record, the USA is Not the great Satan and the Iranian government is currently run by militants, but with regard to the last 60yrs relations between the 2 nations, neither is blameless.
mushrooms!!! i googled your state, i read that it is one of the worlds largest grows of mushrooms, which really amused me.
New york, was too big, too busy and impersonal and i found at times quite aggressive, but there is rather a lot there to see, I too wish that the sky line was as it was 
I have always daydreamed about a camper van trip round the WHOLE USA!! Wonder how long it would take....
I wonder that we are boring other members here, but I have enjoyed the conversation.
Azita
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I did never know so full a voice issue from so empty a heart: but the saying is true 'The empty vessel makes the greatest sound'.
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| Larry Purtell
Little Meadows, PA, USA
Posts: 722
| | Re: 1980: Tehran hostage rescue mission fails | | Posted on: 4/29/2010 10:44:10 AM |
Quote:Yes, But the Shah was seen as a US construct/puppet, whatever. His abuses are indeed many, this was/is seen as another grievance Against the USA, in the America in supporting the Shah, was supporting these abuses. hence the anger and Embassy siege. ( must say that i persoannly, think that is rather unfair) I cant say that the False evidence was known to the USA, in fact i would suspect it was believed, apart from a few US officials that argued against the coup. Im not saying the USA didn't act in what it believed was the "best" way, just that Perhaps some sort of acceptance that it was a mistake. Madeleine K. Albright did say:- "The Eisenhower administration believed its actions were justified for strategic reasons. ... But the coup was clearly a setback for Iran's political development. And it is easy to see now why many Iranians continue to resent this intervention by America in their internal affairs" But with the ever moderate Ali Hoseyni Khāmene’i really does what he can to offer the hand of friendship and peace to the USA...... ( i hope my use of irony is improving) I don't refuse to accept an Iranian communist party (did I?) But as i keep saying Iran was not going to bed with the USSR, they wanted you evil Christian despots (attempt at humour there). The 1941 anglo-soviet invasion of Iran, was probably "justified" The Soviet refusal to withdraw , was not. To get the Soviets out Of Iran, the Government promised the Soviets an oil deal. after they withdrew this deal was, cancelled. Azerbaijan was as scary to Iran as it was the USA As for flying, i haven't been to the USA for a few years, if i go back to work next year, i suspect i might accrue a few air miles in your country's borders. I'm not going to Pennsylvania its full of mushrooms!! So much to see in the USA, all i ever got to see was New York, must say that i do prefer the old one........... Azita --azita
Hi Azita. Pennsylvania does have mushroooms and much more. If you get to North East PA I would gladly show you around. New York is on someone else though. Too many people and too much hustle for me.
Larry
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"My goal is to live forever. So far, so good.
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| Red Bailey
Dewey, AZ, USA
Posts: 840
| | Re: 1980: Tehran hostage rescue mission fails | | Posted on: 4/29/2010 11:44:25 AM | I thought that I'd heard everything
From cradle to the grave
Hey Larry, just how do you know
When your mushrooms need a shave?
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'War is often the result of the failure to reason' - Anonymous
As usual,
Red
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| Larry Purtell
Little Meadows, PA, USA
Posts: 722
| | Re: 1980: Tehran hostage rescue mission fails | | Posted on: 4/29/2010 12:16:31 PM |
Quote:I thought that I'd heard everything
From cradle to the grave
Hey Larry, just how do you know
When your mushrooms need a shave?
--Red Bailey
HI Red. Every Saturday night, if there's a dance. I guess some proof reading is in
order.
Larry
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"My goal is to live forever. So far, so good.
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| Sgt. Saunders
West Palm Beach, FL, USA
Posts: 286
| | Re: 1980: Tehran hostage rescue mission fails | | Posted on: 5/21/2010 7:15:36 PM |
Quote:Sgt. Saunders, you are of course totally right in what you say about the mission failure.
i concur about US outrage of the embassy taking.
I was narrow banding my comments to the rescue as it was an anniversary.
The anger the US must/Do feel about this situation is totally understandable. Is the Iranian anger over the 1953 coup also understandable?
Azita
--azita
My apologies for the delay in my response, I would say that Iranian anger(however much that may be) is understandable. Most Americans couldn';t care less about the 1953 coup for the simple reason that it didn't directly affect them. We cared more in 1979 because it did strike directly at our dignity.
I also read something in one of these posts about how nations don't (?) hold grudges. Frankly, I believe that they do, because nations are not inanimate objects; they consist of- and are lead by- human beings. And human beings certainly hold grudges.
Regards,
Sgt.
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"The beginning of the end of war lies in remembrance".- Herman Wouk
"Is it because they are lucky that great men become great? No- but, being great, they have been able to master luck... What is luck? The ability to exploit accidents"- Napoleon
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| cook
Perth, WA, Australia
Posts: 112
| | Re: 1980: Tehran hostage rescue mission fails | | Posted on: 8/14/2010 2:08:57 AM |
Quote:But also, well, can I tie in one of my favourite quotes by Ernie Pyle, "There are no atheists in foxholes"
This just reminds me once again how glad I am that I am an Australian.
Heaven doesn’t want us and Hell is afraid we will take over.
God’s Own country inhabited by people who know full well that there isn’t one.
The only religion here is Australian Rules Football and our Mecca is the M.C.G.
Apologies, that is as close to a political comment as I shall ever make here.
:)
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| cook
Perth, WA, Australia
Posts: 112
| | Re: 1980: Tehran hostage rescue mission fails | | Posted on: 8/14/2010 2:10:59 AM | Back to the subject of the thread.
The Iranian embassy attempt is a study in what not to do at pretty much every level.
Apparently it was the stimulus for a lot of the Special Forces equipment available since then.
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| cook
Perth, WA, Australia
Posts: 112
| | Re: 1980: Tehran hostage rescue mission fails | | Posted on: 8/14/2010 2:11:00 AM | Back to the subject of the thread.
The Iranian embassy attempt is a study in what not to do at pretty much every level.
Apparently it was the stimulus for a lot of the Special Forces equipment available since then.
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