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 (1946-1999) Other 20th Century Battles    
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Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 2856

The Falkland Islands War 1982!
Posted on: 5/17/2017 9:32:55 PM
It's been 35 years since the War over the Falkland Islands!

[Read More]

I remember it like Vietnam in that it was a war which was brought home every day after work on National TV News!

It really brought home the reality of the war!
How do you remember the Falklands War??
MD

BTW The Harrier Jump Jet was one sweet fighter!

[Read More]
---------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 2856

Re: The Falkland Islands War 1982!
Posted on: 5/19/2017 7:55:49 AM
Sad when HMS Sheffield was sunk.
---------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 6033
http:// 82.44.47.99
Re: The Falkland Islands War 1982!
Posted on: 5/19/2017 8:02:11 AM
1982: Argentines destroy HMS Sheffield


Quote:
The British ship HMS Sheffield has been hit by an Argentine missile fired from a fighter bomber.
It is not clear how many of the 268 crew have perished.

The sinking has shocked the British nation and foiled any possible diplomatic solution to the current dispute over the Falkland Islands between Britain and Argentina.

The ship caught fire when a French-made Exocet missile penetrated deep into HMS Sheffield's control room. The blaze caused a poisonous smoke and most of the crew abandoned ship.

A major rescue operation has been launched in the South Atlantic as relatives thousands of miles back in the UK wait for news of their loved ones.

The 4,100-ton destroyer was struck as it carried out a scouting mission off the Falkland Islands, although its exact position is a secret.

Announcing the news on television, the spokesman for the Ministry of Defence Secretary, Ian McDonald, said the ship was "in the course of its duty within the total exclusion zone around the Falkland Isles".

Two missiles were fired by a Super-Etendard fighter bomber. One missed but the other scored a direct hit and ignited a fire.

The Exocet missile is designed to skim the sea to avoid radar detection. It has its own radar that guides it to its intended target.
On this Day by BBC

Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5510

Re: The Falkland Islands War 1982!
Posted on: 5/19/2017 8:26:49 AM
C'mon Jim. Let us hear what you remember and have to say. It's always more enlightening than a series of cuts and paste.

What was the reaction in the UK to the sinking?

Anger at Argentina, desire for revenge? Any anti-war protests saying that the Falklands weren't worth fighting over?

Cheers,

George

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 6033
http:// 82.44.47.99
Re: The Falkland Islands War 1982!
Posted on: 5/19/2017 8:46:39 AM
Yes I do remember the shock of losing HMS Sheffield and the furore that followed.

Her early warning system failed to pick up her attacker,her crew were seemingly incapable of tackling the fire caused by the Exocet strike which hit her superstructure- which was made of aluminium of all things;20 crew members died- mainly in the galley below the fire.

The whole bad business was covered up by a D Notice; but the truth gradually leaked out.

Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5510

Re: The Falkland Islands War 1982!
Posted on: 5/19/2017 8:53:00 AM
What is a "D notice", Jim?

Cheers,

George

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 6033
http:// 82.44.47.99
Re: The Falkland Islands War 1982!
Posted on: 5/19/2017 9:34:08 AM
A D Notice is issued by "the government of the day" to withhold information from the press- which they deem is "sensitive" and "not in the general public's interest"ie. it is a notice gagging the press.


Quote:
A DSMA-Notice (Defence and Security Media Advisory Notice)[1] — formerly a DA-Notice (Defence Advisory Notice), and before that called a Defence Notice (D-Notice) until 1993—is an official request to news editors not to publish or broadcast items on specified subjects for reasons of national security. The system is still in use in the United Kingdom.
Wikipedia



Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

SJ
Belfast N Ireland, UK
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 697

Re: The Falkland Islands War 1982!
Posted on: 5/19/2017 2:41:08 PM
Ok, as one who has cleaned Falkland peat (not mud) from his soaking wet DMS, let me ruffle a few feathers and challenge the comfortable orthodoxy that has been allowed to become part of the Thatcher government myth. I must stress I was not in Op Corporate, as my tour was in 83, and I had time to analyse and discuss the war with those who lived through it.

1. The Tories wanted rid of the Falklands by 1980. Talks with the Argentina explored Lease Back and an Hong Kong style settlement had been broached.

2. When you talk to the Kelpers as I have done you get an unheard and supressed narrative. In 1981 they were "sold down the River Plate" when denied British Passports under the British Nationality Act. Gibraltarians were - after protest - allowed citizenship, but the Kelpers were lumped along with Hong Kong ethnic Chinese and left out in the cold. This insulting exclusion did not go unnoticed in Bunenos Aires.

3. The HMS Endurance scandal. The Big Red Plum as the Kelpers affectionately called her, was the only Royal Navy vessel that had all weather capability. In the South Atlantic that means she could break ice. With an excellent sense of timing (1981), the MoD announced that she was being withdrawn/scrapped without replacement. Again, the significance of this "signal" was not lost to Buenos Aires.

4. The Security Section (6) in Argentine were not asleep. They send constant reports to London, even noting the significance of sesquicentennial anniversary, which the Junta used to renew pubic interest in the Malvinas. This was politely ignored by MoD on the argument that 6 had cried wolf in 1977.

5. If this was not enough there was that Eaton Arse Hole Nicholas Ridley. In a 1981 public meeting in Stanley he warned the Kelpers that they would "need to do a deal"[with the Junta] and went on to warn them that "you can expect NO help if invaded by Argentina". The two Argentine officials at the meeting exchanged excited glances and "went to make a phone call". That meeting sealed the fate of the Falklands.

6. The myth of the yoump/tab from San Carlos to Stanley. Now let me say that British soldiers were super fit (apart from a certain Guards unit) and accomplished feats of endurance in their Leather Personnel Carriers. However the role of the FIDF and the ordinary kelpers themselves has been airbrushed out of the story. Its not the Marine or the Para with as much as he can carry that you need to mount a deliberate attack - you need tons and tons of logistics. More than a man can carry. And they had lost the air lift capacity with the Atlantic Conveyer. A local hero - think a Falklands Crocodile Dundee- Falkland Island Defence Volunteer Terry Peck escaped Stanley on a motor bike with a detailed assessment of Argentine deployment. He lived rough and evaded capture for almost a fortnight (a sanitised version is on Wikipedia) and made his own way to San Carlos where he astounded Int Cell with his sketch maps, photos (taken with a zoom lens disguised as drain pipe) and the first detailed intelligence on the state of the enemy. It shaped British strategy.
There is a Hollywood blockbuster in here !!!

7. In addition to being chief scout for the British forces, Terry cracked the logistics problem. He mobilised the Kelpers. Every battered vintage tractor was dragged out and fired up. Some were mounted with GPMGs and Blowpipes. It was like Dunkirk - only it was Massey Fergusons not boats, and it was an advance not a withdrawal. The kit got to the FUP, the 105s got the HE for the Fire Missions and the attacks got mounted.

This story has yet to be told. When Terry Peck died in 2006, the Parachute Regiment honoured him with the right to engraved wings on his gravestone. Here lies a soldier.



George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5510

Re: The Falkland Islands War 1982!
Posted on: 5/19/2017 3:25:13 PM
Fabulous stuff SJ. Thank you.

Have the "kelpers" been approached even indirectly, since the war by delegates of Argentina who wish to encourage the islanders to join them?

George

kaii
Edinburgh, UK
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major


Posts: 1901

Re: The Falkland Islands War 1982!
Posted on: 5/19/2017 3:42:15 PM

Quote:
Ok, as one who has cleaned Falkland peat (not mud) from his soaking wet DMS, let me ruffle a few feathers and challenge the comfortable orthodoxy that has been allowed to become part of the Thatcher government myth. I must stress I was not in Op Corporate, as my tour was in 83, and I had time to analyse and discuss the war with those who lived through it.

1. The Tories wanted rid of the Falklands by 1980. Talks with the Argentina explored Lease Back and an Hong Kong style settlement had been broached.

2. When you talk to the Kelpers as I have done you get an unheard and supressed narrative. In 1981 they were "sold down the River Plate" when denied British Passports under the British Nationality Act. Gibraltarians were - after protest - allowed citizenship, but the Kelpers were lumped along with Hong Kong ethnic Chinese and left out in the cold. This insulting exclusion did not go unnoticed in Bunenos Aires.

3. The HMS Endurance scandal. The Big Red Plum as the Kelpers affectionately called her, was the only Royal Navy vessel that had all weather capability. In the South Atlantic that means she could break ice. With an excellent sense of timing (1981), the MoD announced that she was being withdrawn/scrapped without replacement. Again, the significance of this "signal" was not lost to Buenos Aires.

4. The Security Section (6) in Argentine were not asleep. They send constant reports to London, even noting the significance of sesquicentennial anniversary, which the Junta used to renew pubic interest in the Malvinas. This was politely ignored by MoD on the argument that 6 had cried wolf in 1977.

5. If this was not enough there was that Eaton Arse Hole Nicholas Ridley. In a 1981 public meeting in Stanley he warned the Kelpers that they would "need to do a deal"[with the Junta] and went on to warn them that "you can expect NO help if invaded by Argentina". The two Argentine officials at the meeting exchanged excited glances and "went to make a phone call". That meeting sealed the fate of the Falklands.

6. The myth of the yoump/tab from San Carlos to Stanley. Now let me say that British soldiers were super fit (apart from a certain Guards unit) and accomplished feats of endurance in their Leather Personnel Carriers. However the role of the FIDF and the ordinary kelpers themselves has been airbrushed out of the story. Its not the Marine or the Para with as much as he can carry that you need to mount a deliberate attack - you need tons and tons of logistics. More than a man can carry. And they had lost the air lift capacity with the Atlantic Conveyer. A local hero - think a Falklands Crocodile Dundee- Falkland Island Defence Volunteer Terry Peck escaped Stanley on a motor bike with a detailed assessment of Argentine deployment. He lived rough and evaded capture for almost a fortnight (a sanitised version is on Wikipedia) and made his own way to San Carlos where he astounded Int Cell with his sketch maps, photos (taken with a zoom lens disguised as drain pipe) and the first detailed intelligence on the state of the enemy. It shaped British strategy.
There is a Hollywood blockbuster in here !!!

7. In addition to being chief scout for the British forces, Terry cracked the logistics problem. He mobilised the Kelpers. Every battered vintage tractor was dragged out and fired up. Some were mounted with GPMGs and Blowpipes. It was like Dunkirk - only it was Massey Fergusons not boats, and it was an advance not a withdrawal. The kit got to the FUP, the 105s got the HE for the Fire Missions and the attacks got mounted.

This story has yet to be told. When Terry Peck died in 2006, the Parachute Regiment honoured him with the right to engraved wings on his gravestone. Here lies a soldier.


--SJ


Great stuff SJ,
I was lucky enough to visit the Falklands a couple of times in the late 90s and got very much the same vibe from the islanders even at that time 15 years later: there are large elements of the story still untold and there was considerable resentment against the official story (as told in The Sun and the Daily Express)...

I agree, there is definitely a blockbuster in there!

K
---------------
A fool and his money are soon elected.

SJ
Belfast N Ireland, UK
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 697

Re: The Falkland Islands War 1982!
Posted on: 5/19/2017 5:34:51 PM

Quote:
Fabulous stuff SJ. Thank you.

Have the "kelpers" been approached even indirectly, since the war by delegates of Argentina who wish to encourage the islanders to join them?

George
--George


There was a referendum in 2013. A 90% turnout of electorate (about 1,600) and only 3 votes cast not to retain the status of a British Overseas Territory. Even then, the 3 votes may have been seeking independence as the Falklands have discovered a game changer - Texas Tea. Oil and Gas reserves.

With a GDP of £100m per annum, full British citizenship, and full employment any potential delegates know they are wasting their time. And as K has rightly reminded us, the war and Argentine aggression still leaves a bitter taste in the mouth, and relations with the Argentine government are still strained.

wazza
Sydney , Australia
top 25
E-6 Staff Sergeant
Posts: 348

Re: The Falkland Islands War 1982!
Posted on: 5/19/2017 6:06:25 PM
Terry Peck. What an amazing man.

SJ
Belfast N Ireland, UK
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 697

Re: The Falkland Islands War 1982!
Posted on: 5/20/2017 5:39:24 AM

Quote:
Terry Peck. What an amazing man.
--wazza


Too right mate, and a disgrace that the BME (given to civil servants for sharpening pencils)was all the official recognition he got. He also performed an act VC level valour in rescuing an injured Para under fire. But Terry had blotted his copy book with the establishment and the Etonian mafia.

That establishment made a number of cock ups both in inciting the war and in the conduct of it. The near mutiny of B Squadron when ordered on a one way ticket raid on Rio Grande by de la de da Billiere is another untold narrative missed/avoided by the tabloid and indeed broadsheet press.

The successful attempt to silence Captain Barker (HMS Endurance) is another classic cover up.

Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 2856

Re: The Falkland Islands War 1982!
Posted on: 5/20/2017 2:00:50 PM

Quote:
Terry Peck. What an amazing man.
--wazza


Right you are Waz!

[Read More]
---------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

SJ
Belfast N Ireland, UK
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 697

Re: The Falkland Islands War 1982!
Posted on: 5/21/2017 2:57:36 AM
If you are on Facebook log in to the Globe Tavern Stanley. I recall it as the Globe Hotel. It gives a flavour of the culture of the Falklands. They are in identity more British than today's Brits.

Coming from an Ulster Protestant background - and another area of disputed British sovereignty- I had an instant empathy with the Kelpers. And they with me. I "got it" that they lived in a Britain of the 1940/50s.
Even the portraits of HM Majesty the Queen that adorn the community halls in the Islands match the halls back in Ulster. The Queen is always depicted in post coronation youth. She is forever young- despite her birthdays being celebrated with annual neo-religious fervour.

The irony for both territories was/is that the Brits wanted rid of both. But military action prevented the transaction. If the Junta waited 10 more years they would have had it all. But now the precious blood has been shed The war changed everything. The Foreign Office file detailing lease back to Argentina is gathering dust.

The Islanders got their precious UK&EU passports. They got National Health, their kids got scholarships to UK schools and universities. They travelled. I had two lads from a station on Darwin Road who turned up and sheared my sheep for a couple of years !

I don't know how interested the Forum are on the Falklands, so I don't want to bore anyone. But there are many questions/issues merit study: The threat to sink a ship carrying American media crews, Did Northwood have too much control ? Did the British land at San Carlos without a breakout plan? the tactical failures at Battle of Goose Green with the plethora of conspiracy theories Did Thompson ask too much of 2 Para?(was H shot by his own men?),Was H the real hero of the battle or was it the likes of Corporal Camp 093 and Pte Carter 272? Did 2 Para stand a better chance of winning with H dead?

why was 40 Commando left at San Carlos? Was there near mutiny in the SAS, the secret service war against the Exocets, the American involvement, the sinking of the Belgrano, the failure to appreciate logistics.(Some British units approaching Stanley in the last days of the war has less than 10 rounds per man with no prospect of resupply !) The loss of Galahad and the failure of the Welsh Guard command to ditch peace time procedures in time of war and imminent threat.......


George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5510

Re: The Falkland Islands War 1982!
Posted on: 5/21/2017 6:27:10 AM
Not boring at all SJ. But you are bringing up topics related to the war that pique my interest but I will be able to do little but read and try to understand.

You have inside information so please continue if you wish.

Thanks for what you have shared so far.

Cheers,

George

Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 2856

Re: The Falkland Islands War 1982!
Posted on: 5/21/2017 8:43:50 AM
SJ,

I agree with George, & I started this thread, you do have inside information, by all means feel free to share it! It would be great if you answered the questions that you already posed!?

I would be curious why the Argentine Navy would put a outdated warship wagon the General Belgrano, filled with poor soul sailors for the RN to sink? Could that loss of life been prevented??

[Read More]

[Read More]

Is this true?
MD
---------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 6033
http:// 82.44.47.99
Re: The Falkland Islands War 1982!
Posted on: 5/21/2017 8:59:59 AM
The fighter-plane that caused quite a furore during this conflict.


[Read More]

Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

SJ
Belfast N Ireland, UK
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 697

Re: The Falkland Islands War 1982!
Posted on: 5/21/2017 9:52:58 AM

Quote:
Not boring at all SJ. But you are bringing up topics related to the war that pique my interest but I will be able to do little but read and try to understand.

You have inside information so please continue if you wish.

Thanks for what you have shared so far.

Cheers,

George
--George

My thanks to George and Dave. A few things less to take to the grave. Here is one for you George.Did you know that the Canadian Secret Intelligence Service (CSIS) played an key role in passing on vital high grade intel to the British during the Falklands War ?

Now, they will deny this as the CSIS are banned by statute from operating outside Canada, and officially have no overseas agents.

Enter Wild Bill Curtis, the elderly, semi retired air controller at Stanley airstrip. A Canadian citizen, he reported to Government House on the morning of the invasion with his 12bore he used to chase seabirds off the runway, and offered his services to Rex Hunt.

Wild Bill was offered a more covert role. To go back to his post- protest his Canadian citizenship and demand contact with his Ambassador in Buenos Aires. He also made himself useful to the Argentine Air Force as he knew where everything was and could advise on the considerable cross winds etc.

Every day for most of the occupation, Wild Bill phoned the Canadian Embassy from the public kiosk in Stanley - as the line was to Argentina, and hundreds of Argentine soldiers were making similar calls- Bill's call was not monitored. Being aircraft savvy - Wild Bill send highly detailed intel to the Canadian Embassy which went to CSIS and direct to ....London.

Because of its accuracy and detail, the CSIS intel became highly prized. Wild Bill's contribution went unsung and CSIS still deny they were involved.





anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 6033
http:// 82.44.47.99
Re: The Falkland Islands War 1982!
Posted on: 5/21/2017 10:03:07 AM
Gee Whizz!!- SJ I do believe that you have much more to tell.That was quite a starter- for ten???

Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

SJ
Belfast N Ireland, UK
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 697

Re: The Falkland Islands War 1982!
Posted on: 5/21/2017 11:17:43 AM

Quote:
Gee Whizz!!- SJ I do believe that you have much more to tell.That was quite a starter- for ten???

Regards

Jim
--anemone


There is a lesson here Jim, if you ever invade a small tight island community- lock up all the semi retired male pensioners who have a background interest in things military. MHO forum members would be top of my list. It was via Wild Bill that the Brits learned that Panhard 90s had been flown in and deployed.

I will hunt out my Falkland notes, as the old memory is bad for names and dates.

scoucer
Berlin, Germany
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 1941

Re: The Falkland Islands War 1982!
Posted on: 5/21/2017 7:09:36 PM
Thank you SJ. I´m interested in all you can tell about the Falklands.

Even after all these years, it is still painful. One of the casualties on Sheffield was my closest school friend Ian ( communication and computer room). He was evacuated but later died on the hospital ship of smoke poisoning. There was no flag waving in my neighbourhood. Ian´s family were well known, hard working dockworker people proud that their only son had made it to university and into the Royal Navy. They were never the same again - they never recovered.

Trevor
---------------
`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie

Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 6033
http:// 82.44.47.99
Re: The Falkland Islands War 1982!
Posted on: 5/22/2017 4:46:17 AM
San Carlos Water


Quote:
35 years ago, the Royal Navy was coming to the end of a pitched battle against the air assets of the Argentine Air Force and Navy in the Battle of San Carlos. They had been heavily engaged while supporting Operation Sutton, the amphibious landings to recapture the Falklands. Nicknamed “Bomb Alley” by the soldiers, the fighting in San Carlos Water highlighted the Royal Navy’s lack of flexibility, and was very much a case of fighting the wrong enemy, at the wrong time, and in the wrong place.In fighting more akin to that which had taken place off Crete and Okinawa 40 years earlier, the Royal Navy was shown to be functionally underequipped and unsuited for such operations, despite the skill and commitment of its sailors.
RN blog

Battle of Goose Green

Quote:
British forces had landed at San Carlos on May 21st. On May 23rd, the decision was taken for 2 Para to attack Goose Green. The attack was to start on May 25th. However, sometime on May 24th, the attack was cancelled (the log for 2 Para stated that the attack was not favoured in London) but was then reinstated on May 26th. On the evening of May 26th, 2 Para started their march from their base at Sussex Mountain, to the south of the San Carlos bridgehead.

2 Para targeted Camilla Creek House as their starting point for the attack. On the night of May 27th, eight men from C Company, 2 Para, were sent out to scout the surrounding terrain. Their reports gave Lt. Col Jones a detailed knowledge of Argentine strong points – where heavy machine posts were based etc. With this knowledge, Jones planned his attack. However, none of the scouts had seen the trenches that the Argentines had dug along Darwin Hill as the contours of the hill had hidden them. Such a lack of knowledge was a major weakness as it was while attacking the guns in these trenches that Jones was killed.
Para Blog

Regards

Jim

---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

SJ
Belfast N Ireland, UK
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 697

Re: The Falkland Islands War 1982!
Posted on: 5/22/2017 6:50:48 AM

Quote:
Thank you SJ. I´m interested in all you can tell about the Falklands.

Even after all these years, it is still painful. One of the casualties on Sheffield was my closest school friend Ian ( communication and computer room). He was evacuated but later died on the hospital ship of smoke poisoning. There was no flag waving in my neighbourhood. Ian´s family were well known, hard working dockworker people proud that their only son had made it to university and into the Royal Navy. They were never the same again - they never recovered.

Trevor
--scoucer


You are welcome Trevor. I am watching the 30 year rule releases, as like you I signed the OSA. At lot of what I know stems from a openminded analysis of the land action trying to glean lessons that could be learnt, so was never classified as such.

With regard to the Senior Service, I had a cousin's boy serving as a young AS "in" Glasgow. He heard the alarm call "Handbrake" and witnessed the failure of the 909 fire control to lock on to the two tiny intermittent targets. Glasgow was a sitting duck as there was a frantic attempt to override to manual. They were literally counting the seconds to being blown out of the water, but either due to Chaff or other target signals,the two Exocets passed by on the port beam and one acquired Sheffield some 20 miles away.

Now forget what you read on Wikipedia and the Board of Inquiry. The Shiney Sheff perished not because of bad seamanship, but faulty design.

Sheffield had been tasked - because of Her state of the art SCOT satellite comms - to transmit to Northwood.
The powerful transmissions the SCOT was generating bled over the vital 965 radar array and blinded the ship to all aircraft/missile activity. The AKE2 array was the state of the art in 1982 - no navy had better equipment - but it was switched off as per SOP during these "vital" satellite comms.

Sheffield was not alerted, so the classified Bexley jammers that could tilt an Exocet were not used. And due to MoD budget cuts, Sheff was not fitted with the new Cutlass infa-red warning system. The crew were unaware of the drama on Glasgow. The Link 10 to Glasgow's computers was not connected- so not to upset SCOT- and the original 2-3-8 bearing of the missiles at 50 miles out,when called by Glasgow, did not put Sheffield in harms way- so she remained at Air Raid White - not Action Stations.

The time from missile launch to impact on Sheffield was just ...107 seconds. Take that on board the armchair before anyone makes MHO judgements.

It was bad design that the SCOT transmission shut down all vital detection/defence systems, and penny pinching by MoD not to fit the Cutlass. And contrary to the flawed BOI, the Exocet did indeed detonate.

If its any consolation, Sam Salt and his crew were not guilty of any human error or negligence, and they fought for four and a half desperate hours of reckless bravery to save their ship, despite water pumps ruptured, dense smoke and decks so hot that burnt their feet.

Nelson would have expected no more.


Kindest regards



Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 2856

Re: The Falkland Islands War 1982!
Posted on: 5/24/2017 2:52:21 PM
Lord H. Nelson, you say!?

[Read More]
---------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

scoucer
Berlin, Germany
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 1941

Re: The Falkland Islands War 1982!
Posted on: 5/24/2017 3:03:30 PM
Thank you SJ. Of course, having signed the OSA, there are things I know but can´t talk about.

Talked to quite a few Falklands vets in W.Berlin ( mostly RE and REME). What comes over is that, the Brits had a lot of luck and it could have gone seriously bad. Far too many "gong hunters" and very bad logistics. What disgusted many was the political exploitation of the Thatcher gouvernment.

Trevor
---------------
`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie

Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.

Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 2856

Re: The Falkland Islands War 1982!
Posted on: 6/4/2017 4:28:17 PM
Victory is sweet!

[Read More]

[Read More]

Rule Britannia!
MD

Not so happy in Argentina!

[Read More]
---------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

Jon Zelazny
Los Angeles, CA, USA
top 50
E-4 Specialist


Posts: 72
http://jonzelazny.com
Re: The Falkland Islands War 1982!
Posted on: 6/4/2017 5:54:41 PM
Great discussion. As a boy in post-Vietnam America with a huge interest in military history, the Falklands were the first "real war" of my lifetime. I very clearly recall excitedly discussing the daily reported developments with my like-minded chums. I have one book about it, but certainly haven't thought of it much as an adult.
---------------
Z

SJ
Belfast N Ireland, UK
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 697

Re: The Falkland Islands War 1982!
Posted on: 6/5/2017 6:52:53 AM
Thanks Jon

We who lived through it, served/toured in the Falklands (before/during/after) the war, and knew many of the players have never really had a chance to talk or share.

As Trevor (miss you mate- look forward to seeing you on the forum later this week) says above, the Brits were lucky.

When you study the campaign the first thing that strikes you is the Task Force did not have a plan. Unlike the various NATO scenarios there had been no strategic study- no war games, no surveys of "the ground". And when they sailed they had a few weeks of window in the weather.

Woodward knew the vulnerability of his carriers. He was obsessed with establishing a beach head on West Falkland -at Port North- getting Engineers to construct an improvised airstrip and fly in Phantoms from Ascension. The RAF argued that a Phantom was not a Harrier. It needed clean runway without moss, rocks and other debris. Otherwise the jet intakes would get buggered.

The glory hunter de la de da Billiere wanted an SAS suicide mission into Stanley, land at the airfield and drive into town to "eliminate" the Argentine high command. Thankfully good intel of the level of defences around Stanley
(thanks in no small measure to local hero "Wild Bill"- a Canadian Secret Agent) scrubbed this one. The SAS head shed then looked at Op MIKADO but it too was thankfully scrubbed as an impossible suicide mission into the Argentine mainland!

Low Bay was also considered, and even much closer to Stanley such as Cow Bay and Uranie Bay and some even advocated Stanley itself. At one point Uranie Bay was the hot favourite, with the first objective being Mt. Estancia until the Gunners worked out -even with shore bombardment - they could not get a regiment ashore and emplaced to give necessary fire cover.

Much of the intel on the 40 odd bays around the islands was provided by Major Ewen
Southby-Taylor. He had commanded the Naval Party on the islands in 1978 and spent his free time sailing a dingy around the inlets. He also looked for bays suitable for small assault boat exercises.

San Carlos looked good. SBS confirmed that the channel was not mined. The plan was to establish a beach head and use the heavy lift choppers to mount airlifts at night with troops/ heavy kit/105s and leapfrog towards Stanley.(That went well!!)

But the final decision to make Port San Carlos/Ajax Bay the landing ground was based on an unusual source that is omitted from the official histories. Mrs Carol Miller, a housewife from Congleton in Cheshire, England, was responsible. But that's another story.

Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 2856

Re: The Falkland Islands War 1982!
Posted on: 6/5/2017 9:23:52 AM
Thanks SJ,

Your inside info is very enlightening!

Regards,
MD
---------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 2856

Re: The Falkland Islands War 1982!
Posted on: 6/12/2017 4:15:43 PM
A synopsis on the Falklands!

[Read More]

up until then this was the last British Invasion!?

[Read More]

:)
MD

---------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

SJ
Belfast N Ireland, UK
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 697

Re: The Falkland Islands War 1982!
Posted on: 6/13/2017 6:35:19 AM

Quote:
A synopsis on the Falklands!

[Read More]

up until then this was the last British Invasion!?

[Read More]

:)
MD


--Michigan Dave


Very factual - little or no interpretation. More a chronology of events than good history.
And "last Brit invasion" - did he miss Suez ?

Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 2856

Re: The Falkland Islands War 1982!
Posted on: 6/17/2017 11:30:50 AM
Hi SJ,

We haven't really discussed the Suez War?

Perhaps someone could start a thread?

MD
---------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 2856

Re: The Falkland Islands War 1982!
Posted on: 6/19/2017 5:37:49 PM
Some Falkland Island War, Combat Footage!?

[Read More]
---------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

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