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 (1946-1999) Other 20th Century Battles    
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John R. Price
Wilkes-Barre, PA, USA
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant
Posts: 523

Re: 50 years ago: Camp Carroll, Republic of Vietnam
Posted on: 10/20/2017 12:07:45 PM
He wasn't "compelled" to serve he volunteered for the Navy, volunteered for the SEALS and volunteered to go to Vietnam twice because he believed.

The point you refused to accept is that something like 70% of those who actually served in Vietnam volunteer to join the military and weren't drafted and that FACT is available in multiple balanced sources.


---------------
A battle long forgotten by our country in a war never understood by our country.
"to satisfy our endless needs and justify our bloody deeds, in the name of destiny and in the name of God"


BWilson

top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 3438

Re: 50 years ago: Camp Carroll, Republic of Vietnam
Posted on: 10/20/2017 12:34:47 PM
John,

 Yes, I knew a sergeant-major in the Army who volunteered for service in Vietnam something like three or four times. I asked him why he had done so. His answer was frank: "I wanted to kill communists." And the reason for that went back to 1940, when the Soviet Army invaded and occupied his homeland. He was a good man and an outstanding instructor.

Cheers

BW
---------------
With occasional, fatigued glances at life's rear-view mirror from the other side of time.

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5510

Re: 50 years ago: Camp Carroll, Republic of Vietnam
Posted on: 10/20/2017 3:03:32 PM

Quote:
He wasn't "compelled" to serve he volunteered for the Navy, volunteered for the SEALS and volunteered to go to Vietnam twice because he believed.

The point you refused to accept is that something like 70% of those who actually served in Vietnam volunteer to join the military and weren't drafted and that FACT is available in multiple balanced sources.





--John R. Price



Since the fact had never been presented before on this thread, why would you suggest that I refuse to accept it. Silly accusation.

Were the volunteers already in the service? If so did they have to declare that they would go to Vietnam or did they have any choice?

But it would interesting to read any studies that:

1. compared the differences in attitudes of draftees and volunteers toward the war.

2. indicated how the attitude of the soldiers, draftees and volunteers, changed during their rotation

3. How they felt about their service after the combat experience was finished.

4. Changes in attitude toward the Vietnamese people during the rotation.






John R. Price
Wilkes-Barre, PA, USA
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant
Posts: 523

Re: 50 years ago: Camp Carroll, Republic of Vietnam
Posted on: 10/20/2017 5:55:38 PM
This isn't our first discussion on Vietnam.

Here is a copy and past from the Vietnam Veteran,

The stereotypes are wrong. Let's look at the facts, starting with who actually served in Vietnam.
The image of those who fought in Vietnam is one of poorly educated, reluctant draftees -- predominantly poor whites and minorities. But in reality, only one-third of Vietnam-era veterans entered the military through the draft, far lower than the 66 percent drafted in World War II.
It was the best-educated and most egalitarian military force in America's history -- and with the advent of the all-volunteer military, is likely to remain so. In WWII, only 45 percent of the troops had a high school diploma. During the Vietnam War, almost 80 percent of those who enlisted had high school diplomas, and the percentage was higher for draftees -- even though, at the time, only 65 percent of military-age males had a high school diploma.
Throughout the Vietnam era, the median education level of the enlisted man was about 13 years. Proportionately, three times as many college graduates served in Vietnam than in WWII.
Another common assumption: The war in Vietnam was fought by youngsters wet behind the ears, who died as teenagers barely old enough to shave. In fact, more 52-year-olds (22) died in Vietnam than 17-year-olds (12). An analysis of data from the Department of Defense shows the average age of men killed in Vietnam was 22.8 years, or almost 23 years old.
Though the notion persists that those who died in Vietnam were mostly members of a minority group, it's not true. About 5 percent of KIAs were Hispanic and 12.5 percent were black -- making both minorities slightly under-represented in their proportion of draft-age males in the national population.
A common negative image of the soldier in Vietnam is that he smoked pot and injected heroin to dull the horrors of combat. However, except for the last couple of years of the war, drug usage among GIs in Vietnam was lower than for U.S. troops stationed elsewhere.
When drug rates started to rise in 1971 and 1972, almost 90 percent of the men who served in Vietnam had already come and gone. A study after the war by the VA showed drug usage of veterans and non-veterans to be about the same. And marijuana -- not heroin -- was the drug used in 75 percent of the cases. Of those addicted, 88 percent kicked the habit within three years of returning.
Posterboy of Anti-War Movement:

The anti-war movement paraded Vietnam servicemen who had deserted their units as "proof" that it was an immoral war. But of the 5,000 men who deserted for various causes during the Vietnam War period, only 5 percent did so while attached to units in Vietnam.
Only 24 deserters attributed their action to the desire to "avoid hazardous duty." Some 97 percent of Vietnam veterans received honorable discharges, exactly the same rate for the military in the 10 years prior to the war.

After the war ended, reports began to circulate of veterans so depraved from their war experiences that they turned to crime, with estimates of the number of incarcerated Vietnam veterans as high as one-quarter of the prison population. But most of these accounts were based on self-reporting by criminals. In every major study of Vietnam veterans where military records were verified, an insignificant number of prisoners were found to be actual Vietnam veterans.
A corollary to the prison myth is the belief that substantial numbers of Vietnam veterans are unemployed. A study by the Labor Department in 1994 showed an unemployment rate of 3 percent for Vietnam veterans -- lower than that of Vietnam-era veterans who served outside the Vietnam theater (5 percent), and for all male veterans (4.9 percent).

The same is true for the nonsense that Vietnam vets have high rates of suicide, often heard as the "fact" that more veterans had died by their own hand than in combat. But that's a myth, too. A 1988 study by the Centers for Disease Control found Vietnam veterans had suicide rates well within the 1.7 percent norm of the general population.
Societal Success:

In fact, Vietnam veterans are as successful or more successful than men their own age who did not go to war. Disproportionate numbers of Vietnam veterans serve in Congress, for instance. Vice President Al Gore is a Vietnam veteran, as is enormously popular Colin Powell.
They run Fortune 500 corporations (Frederick Smith of Federal Express), write screenplays (Bill Broyles formerly of Newsweek) and report the evening news (ABC correspondent Jack Smith).
Actor Dennis Franz, who plays a detective on TV's NYPD Blue, is a Vietnam vet, as are large numbers of real law enforcement agents, prosecutors and attorneys. No facet of American life has been untouched by the positive contributions of Vietnam veterans.
While stereotypes may persist in Hollywood and the media, America's finest increasingly run the country.
Vietnam Warriors:

A Statistical Profile In Uniform and In Country Vietnam Vets: 9.7% of their generation.
9,087,000 military personnel served on active duty during the Vietnam era (Aug. 5, 1964-May 7, 1975)
8,744,000 GIs were on active duty during the war (Aug. 5, 1964-March 28, 1973).
3,403,100 (including 514,300 offshore) personnel served in the Southeast Asia Theater (Vietnam, Laos, Cambodia, flight crews based in Thailand, and sailors in adjacent South China Sea waters).
2,594,000 personnel served within the borders of South Vietnam (Jan. 1, 1965- March 28, 1973).
Another 50,000 men served in Vietnam between 1960 and 1964.
Of the 2.6 million, between 1-1.6 million (40-60%) either fought in combat, provided close support or were at least fairly regularly exposed to enemy attack.
7,484 women (6,250 or 83.5% were nurses) served in Vietnam.
Peak troop strength in Vietnam: 543,482 (April 30, 1969).
Casualties

Hostile deaths: 47,378
Non-hostile deaths: 10,800
Total: 58,202 (includes men formerly classified as MIA and Mayaguez casualties). Men who have subsequently died of wounds account for the changing total.

8 nurses died -- 1 was KIA.

Married men killed: 17,539

61% of the men killed were 21 or younger

Highest state death rate: West Virginia- 84.1 (national average 58.9 for every 100,000 males in 1970).

Wounded: 303,704 -- 153,329 hospitalized + 150,375 injured requiring no hospital care.

Severely disabled: 75,000 -- 23,214 100% disabled; 5,283 lost limbs; 1,081 sustained multiple amputations.

Amputation or crippling wounds to the lower extremities were 300% higher than in WWII and 70% higher than in Korea. Multiple amputations occurred at the rate of 18.4% compared to 5.7% in WWII.

Missing in Action: 2,338.

POWs: 766 (114 died in captivity).

Draftees vs. Volunteers:

25% (648,500) of total forces in country were draftees. (66% of U.S. armed forces members were drafted during WWII.)

Draftees accounted for 30.4% (17,725) of combat deaths in Vietnam.

Reservists killed: 5,977.

National Guard: 6,140 served; 101 died.

Total draftees (1965-73): 1,728,344.

Actually served in Vietnam: 38%

Marine Corps draft: 42,633.

Last man drafted: June 30, 1973.
Race and Ethnic Background

88.4% of the men who actually served in Vietnam were Caucasian; 10.6% (275,000) were black; 1% belonged to other races.

86.3% of the men who died in Vietnam were Caucasian (includes Hispanics);

12.5% (7,241) were black; 1.2% belonged to other races.

170,000 Hispanics served in Vietnam; 3,070 (5.2% of total) died there.

70% of enlisted men killed were of Northwest European descent.

86.8% of the men who were killed as a result of hostile action were Caucasian; 12.1% (5,711) were black; 1.1% belonged to other races.

14.6% (1,530) of non-combat deaths were among blacks.

34% of blacks who enlisted volunteered for the combat arms.

Overall, blacks suffered 12.5% of the deaths in Vietnam at a time when the percentage of blacks of military age was 13.5% of the total population.
Religion of Dead:

Protestant -- 64.4%; Catholic -- 28.9%; other/none --6.7%.
Socio-Economic Status

76% of the men sent to Vietnam were from lower middle/working class backgrounds.

Three-fourths had family incomes above the poverty level; 50% were from middle income backgrounds.

Some 23% of Vietnam vets had fathers with professional, managerial or technical occupations.

79% of the men who served in Vietnam had a high school education or better when they entered the military service.
(63% of Korean War vets and only 45% of WWII vets had completed high school upon separation.)

Deaths by region per 100,000 of population: South-31; West-29.9; Midwest-28.4; Northeast-23.5.
Winning & Losing

82% of veterans who saw heavy combat strongly believe the war was lost because of lack of political will.

Nearly 75% of the public agrees it was a failure of political will, not of arms.
Honorable Service

97% of Vietnam-era veterans were honorably discharged.

91% of actual Vietnam War veterans and 90% of those who saw heavy combat are proud to have served their country.

66% of Vietnam vets say they would serve again if called upon.

87% of the public now holds Vietnam veterans in high esteem.
---------------
A battle long forgotten by our country in a war never understood by our country.
"to satisfy our endless needs and justify our bloody deeds, in the name of destiny and in the name of God"


John R. Price
Wilkes-Barre, PA, USA
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant
Posts: 523

Re: 50 years ago: Camp Carroll, Republic of Vietnam
Posted on: 10/20/2017 6:10:37 PM
Here is another copy and paste,

No event in American history is more misunderstood than the Vietnam War. It was misreported then, and it is misremembered now. Rarely have so many people been so wrong about so much. Never have the consequences of their misunderstanding been so tragic." [Nixon]
The Vietnam War has been the subject of thousands of newspaper and magazine articles, hundreds of books, and scores of movies and television documentaries. The great majority of these efforts have erroneously portrayed many myths about the Vietnam War as being facts. [Nixon]
Myth: Most American soldiers were addicted to drugs, guilt-ridden about their role in the war, and deliberately used cruel and inhumane tactics.
The facts are:
91% of Vietnam Veterans say they are glad they served [Westmoreland]
74% said they would serve again even knowing the outcome [Westmoreland]
There is no difference in drug usage between Vietnam Veterans and non veterans of the same age group (from a Veterans Administration study) [Westmoreland]
Isolated atrocities committed by American soldiers produced torrents of outrage from antiwar critics and the news media while Communist atrocities were so common that they received hardly any attention at all. The United States sought to minimize and prevent attacks on civilians while North Vietnam made attacks on civilians a centerpiece of its strategy. Americans who deliberately killed civilians received prison sentences while Communists who did so received commendations. From 1957 to 1973, the National Liberation Front assassinated 36,725 South Vietnamese and abducted another 58,499. The death squads focused on leaders at the village level and on anyone who improved the lives of the peasants such as medical personnel, social workers, and schoolteachers. [Nixon] Atrocities - every war has atrocities. War is brutal and not fair. Innocent people get killed.
Vietnam Veterans are less likely to be in prison - only 1/2 of one percent of Vietnam Veterans have been jailed for crimes. [Westmoreland]
97% were discharged under honorable conditions; the same percentage of honorable discharges as ten years prior to Vietnam [Westmoreland]
85% of Vietnam Veterans made a successful transition to civilian life. [McCaffrey]
Vietnam veterans' personal income exceeds that of our non-veteran age group by more than 18 percent. [McCaffrey]
Vietnam veterans have a lower unemployment rate than our non-vet age group. [McCaffrey]
87% of the American people hold Vietnam Vets in high esteem. [McCaffrey]
Myth: Most Vietnam veterans were drafted.
2/3 of the men who served in Vietnam were volunteers. 2/3 of the men who served in World War II were drafted. [Westmoreland] Approximately 70% of those killed were volunteers. [McCaffrey]  Many men volunteered for the draft so even some of the draftees were actually volunteers.
Myth: The media have reported that suicides among Vietnam veterans range from 50,000 to 100,000 - 6 to 11 times the non-Vietnam veteran population.
Mortality studies show that 9,000 is a better estimate. "The CDC Vietnam Experience Study Mortality Assessment showed that during the first 5 years after discharge, deaths from suicide were 1.7 times more likely among Vietnam veterans than non-Vietnam veterans. After that initial post-service period, Vietnam veterans were no more likely to die from suicide than non-Vietnam veterans. In fact, after the 5-year post-service period, the rate of suicides is less in the Vietnam veterans' group." [Houk]
Myth: A disproportionate number of blacks were killed in the Vietnam War.
86% of the men who died in Vietnam were Caucasians, 12.5% were black, 1.2% were other races. (CACF and Westmoreland)
Sociologists Charles C. Moskos and John Sibley Butler, in their recently published book "All That We Can Be," said they analyzed the claim that blacks were used like cannon fodder during Vietnam "and can report definitely that this charge is untrue. Black fatalities amounted to 12 percent of all Americans killed in Southeast Asia - a figure proportional to the number of blacks in the U.S. population at the time and slightly lower than the proportion of blacks in the Army at the close of the war." [All That We Can Be]
Myth: The war was fought largely by the poor and uneducated.
Servicemen who went to Vietnam from well-to-do areas had a slightly elevated risk of dying because they were more likely to be pilots or infantry officers.
Vietnam Veterans were the best educated forces our nation had ever sent into combat. 79% had a high school education or better. [McCaffrey]
 
Here are statistics from the Combat Area Casualty File (CACF) as of November 1993. The CACF is the basis for the Vietnam Veterans Memorial (The Wall):
Average age of 58,148 killed in Vietnam was 23.11 years. (Although 58,169 names are in the Nov. 93 database, only 58,148 have both event date and birth date. Event date is used instead of declared dead date for some of those who were listed as missing in action) [CACF]

Deaths Number Average Age
Total 58,148 23.11 years
Enlisted 50,274 22.37 years
Officers 6,598 28.43 years
Warrants 1,276 24.73 years
E1 525 20.34 years
USMC 0351 1,122 20.46 years
11B MOS 18,465 22.55 years
One man killed in Vietnam was only 16 years old (RABER, PAUL J.)  [CACF]
The oldest man killed was 62 years old (TAYLOR, KENNA CLYDE). [CACF]
11,465 KIAs were less than 20 years old. [CACF]
Myth: The average age of an infantryman fighting in Vietnam was 19.
Assuming KIAs accurately represented age groups serving in Vietnam, the average age of an infantryman (MOS 11B) serving in Vietnam to be 19 years old is a myth, it is actually 22. None of the enlisted grades have an average age of less than 20. [CACF] The average man who fought in World War II was 26 years of age. [Westmoreland]
 
Myth: The domino theory was proved false.
The domino theory was accurate. The ASEAN (Association of Southeast Asian Nations) countries, Philippines, Indonesia, Malaysia, Singapore and Thailand stayed free of Communism because of the U.S. commitment to Vietnam. The Indonesians threw the Soviets out in 1966 because of America's commitment in Vietnam. Without that commitment, Communism would have swept all the way to the Malacca Straits that is south of Singapore and of great strategic importance to the free world. If you ask people who live in these countries that won the war in Vietnam, they have a different opinion from the American news media. The Vietnam War was the turning point for Communism. [Westmoreland]
Democracy Catching On - In the wake of the Cold War, democracies are flourishing, with 179 of the world's 192 sovereign states (93%) now electing their legislators, according to the Geneva-based Inter-Parliamentary Union. In the last decade, 69 nations have held multi-party elections for the first time in their histories. Three of the five newest democracies are former Soviet republics: Belarus (where elections were first held in November 1995), Armenia (July 1995) and Kyrgyzstan (February 1995). And two are in Africa: Tanzania (October 1995) and Guinea (June 1995). [Parade Magazine]
 
Myth: The fighting in Vietnam was not as intense as in World War II.
The average infantryman in the South Pacific during World War II saw about 40 days of combat in four years. The average infantryman in Vietnam saw about 240 days of combat in one year thanks to the mobility of the helicopter.
One out of every 10 Americans who served in Vietnam was a casualty. 58,169 were killed and 304,000 wounded out of 2.59 million who served. Although the percent who died is similar to other wars, amputations or crippling wounds were 300 percent higher than in World War II. 75,000 Vietnam veterans are severely disabled. [McCaffrey]
MEDEVAC helicopters flew nearly 500,000 missions. Over 900,000 patients were airlifted (nearly half were American). The average time lapse between wounding to hospitalization was less than one hour. As a result, less than one percent of all Americans wounded who survived the first 24 hours died. [VHPA 1993]
The helicopter provided unprecedented mobility. Without the helicopter it would have taken three times as many troops to secure the 800 mile border with Cambodia and Laos (the politicians thought the Geneva Conventions of 1954 and the Geneva Accords or 1962 would secure the border) [Westmoreland]
More helicopter facts:
Approximately 12,000 helicopters saw action in Vietnam (all services). [VHPA databases]
Army UH-1's totaled 9,713,762 flight hours in Vietnam between October 1966 and the end of American involvement in early 1973. [VHPA databases]
Army AH-1G's totaled 1,110,716 flight hours in Vietnam. [VHPA databases]
We believe that the Huey along with the Huey Cobra have more combat flight time than any other aircraft in the history of warfare assuming you count actual hostile fire exposure versus battle area exposure.  As an example, heavy bombers during World War II most often flew missions lasting many hours with only 10 to 20 minutes of that time exposed to hostile fire.  Helicopters in Vietnam seldom flew above 1,500 feet which is traffic pattern altitude for bombers and were always exposed to hostile fire even in their base camps.

Myth: Air America, the airline operated by the CIA in Southeast Asia, and its pilots were involved in drug trafficking.
The 1990 unsuccessful movie "Air America" helped to establish the myth of a connection between Air America, the CIA, and the Laotian drug trade. The movie and a book the movie was based on contend that the CIA condoned a drug trade conducted by a Laotian client; both agree that Air America provided the essential transportation for the trade; and both view the pilots with sympathetic understanding. American-owned airlines never knowingly transported opium in or out of Laos, nor did their American pilots ever profit from its transport. Yet undoubtedly every plane in Laos carried opium at some time, unknown to the pilot and his superiors. For more information see http://www.air-america.org
Facts about the fall of Saigon
Myth: The American military was running for their lives during the fall of Saigon in April 1975.
The picture of a Huey helicopter evacuating people from the top of what was billed as being the U.S. Embassy in Saigon during the last week of April 1975 during the fall of Saigon helped to establish this myth.

This famous picture is the property of UPI Corbus-Bettman Photo Agency. It is one of 42 pictures of this helicopter that UPI photographer, Hubert Van Es took on 29 April 1975 from UPI's offices on the top floor of the Saigon Hotel which was several blocks from the Pittman Apartments. [People]
Here are some facts to clear up that poor job of reporting by the news media.
It was a "civilian" (Air America) Huey not Army or Marines.
It was NOT the U.S. Embassy. The building is the Pittman Apartments, a 10 story building where the CIA station chief and many of his officers lived, located at 22 Ly Tu Trong St. The U.S. Embassy and its helipad were much larger. The platform is the top of the elevator shaft for the building and was not designed as a helipad.  [People]
The evacuees were Vietnamese not American military.  Two high ranking Vietnamese where among those taken that day to Tan Son Nhut airport, General Tran Van Don and the head of the secret police Tran Kim Tuyen.  Both immigrated to Europe and both have since died.  [People]
The person who can be seen aiding the refugees was CIA operations officer, Mr. O.B. Harnage, who is now retired in Arizona.  The pilots who were flying this helicopter, tail number N4 7004, were Bob Caron who lives in Florida and Jack "Pogo" Hunter who died in 1997.  [People]
Another famous picture.

Myth: Kim Phuc, the little nine year old Vietnamese girl running naked from the napalm strike near Trang Bang on 8 June 1972, was burned by Americans bombing Trang Bang.
No American had involvement in this incident near Trang Bang that burned Phan Thi Kim Phuc. The planes doing the bombing near the village were VNAF (Vietnam Air Force) and were being flown by Vietnamese pilots in support of South Vietnamese troops on the ground. The Vietnamese pilot who dropped the napalm in error is currently living in the United States. Even the AP photographer, Nick Ut, who took the picture was Vietnamese. The incident in the photo took place on the second day of a three day battle between the North Vietnamese Army (NVA) who occupied the village of Trang Bang and the ARVN (Army of the Republic of Vietnam) who were trying to force the NVA out of the village. Recent reports in the news media that an American commander ordered the air strike that burned Kim Phuc are incorrect. There were no Americans involved in any capacity. "We (Americans) had nothing to do with controlling VNAF," according to Lieutenant General (Ret) James F. Hollingsworth, the Commanding General of TRAC at that time. Also, it has been incorrectly reported that two of Kim Phuc's brothers were killed in this incident. They were Kim's cousins not her brothers.
Myth: The United States lost the war in Vietnam.
The American military was not defeated in Vietnam. The American military did not lose a battle of any consequence. From a military standpoint, it was almost an unprecedented performance. (Westmoreland quoting Douglas Pike, a professor at the University of California, Berkley a renowned expert on the Vietnam War) [Westmoreland] This included Tet 68, which was a major military defeat for the VC and NVA.

THE UNITED STATES DID NOT LOSE THE WAR IN VIETNAM, THE SOUTH VIETNAMESE DID after the U.S. Congress cut off funding.  The South Vietnamese ran out of fuel, ammunition and other supplies because of a lack of support from Congress while the North Vietnamese were very well supplied by China and the Soviet Union.
Facts about the end of the war:
The fall of Saigon happened 30 April 1975, two years AFTER the American military left Vietnam. The last American troops departed in their entirety 29 March 1973. How could we lose a war we had already stopped fighting? We fought to an agreed stalemate. The peace settlement was signed in Paris on 27 January 1973. It called for release of all U.S. prisoners, withdrawal of U.S. forces, limitation of both sides' forces inside South Vietnam and a commitment to peaceful reunification. [1996 Information Please Almanac]
The 140,000 evacuees in April 1975 during the fall of Saigon consisted almost entirely of civilians and Vietnamese military, NOT American military running for their lives. [1996 Information Please Almanac]
There were almost twice as many casualties in Southeast Asia (primarily Cambodia) the first two years after the fall of Saigon in 1975 then there were during the ten years the U.S. was involved in Vietnam. [1996 Information Please Almanac] 
POW-MIA Issue (unaccounted-for versus missing in action)
Politics & People, On Vietnam, Clinton Should Follow a Hero's Advice, contained this quote about Vietnam, there has been "the most extensive accounting in the history of human warfare" of those missing in action. While there are still officially more than 2,200 cases, there now are only 55 incidents of American servicemen who were last seen alive but aren't accounted for. By contrast, there still are 78,000 unaccounted-for Americans from World War II and 8,100 from the Korean conflict.
"The problem is that those who think the Vietnamese haven't cooperated sufficiently think there is some central repository with answers to all the lingering questions," notes Gen. John Vessey, the former chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff and the Reagan and Bush administration's designated representative in MIA negotiations. "In all the years we've been working on this we have found that's not the case." [The Wall Street Journal]
More realities about war: Post Traumatic Stress Disorder (PTSD) - it was not invented or unique to Vietnam Veterans. It was called "shell shock" and other names in previous wars. An automobile accident or other traumatic event also can cause it. It does not have to be war related. The Vietnam War helped medical progress in this area.
Myth: Agent Orange poisoned millions of Vietnam veterans.
Over the ten years of the war, Operation Ranch Hand sprayed about eleven million gallons of Agent Orange on the South Vietnamese landscape. (the herbicide was called "orange" in Vietnam, not Agent Orange. That sinister-sounding term was coined after the war) Orange was sprayed at three gallons per acre that was the equivalent of .009 of an ounce per square foot. When sprayed on dense jungle foliage, less that 6 percent ever reached the ground. Ground troops typically did not enter a sprayed area until four to six weeks after being sprayed. Most Agent Orange contained .0002 of 1 percent of dioxin. Scientific research has shown that dioxin degrades in sunlight after 48 to 72 hours; therefore, troops exposure to dioxin was infinitesimal. [Burkett]
See also The History of the Ranch Hand Epidemiologic Investigation.


Restraining the military in Vietnam in hindsight probably prevented a nuclear war with China or Russia. The Vietnam War was shortly after China got involved in the Korean war, the time of the Cuban missile crisis, Soviet aggression in Eastern Europe and the proliferation of nuclear bombs. In all, a very scary time for our country.


SOURCES
[Nixon] No More Vietnams by Richard Nixon
[Parade Magazine] August 18, 1996 page 10.
[CACF] (Combat Area Casualty File) November 1993. (The CACF is the basis for the Vietnam Veterans Memorial, i.e. The Wall), Center for Electronic Records, National Archives, Washington, DC
[All That We Can Be] All That We Can Be by Charles C. Moskos and John Sibley Butler
[Westmoreland] Speech by General William C. Westmoreland before the Third Annual Reunion of the Vietnam Helicopter Pilots Association (VHPA) at the Washington, DC Hilton Hotel on July 5th, 1986 (reproduced in a Vietnam Helicopter Pilots Association Historical Reference Directory Volume 2A)
[McCaffrey] Speech by Lt. Gen. Barry R. McCaffrey, (reproduced in the Pentagram, June 4, 1993) assistant to the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, to Vietnam veterans and visitors gathered at "The Wall", Memorial Day 1993.
[Houk] Testimony by Dr. Houk, Oversight on Post-Traumatic Stress Disorder, 14 July 1988 page 17, Hearing before the Committee on Veterans' Affairs United States Senate one hundredth Congress second session. Also "Estimating the Number of Suicides Among Vietnam Veterans" (Am J Psychiatry 147, 6 June 1990 pages 772-776)
[The Wall Street Journal] The Wall Street Journal, 1 June 1996 page A15.
[VHPA 1993] Vietnam Helicopter Pilots Association 1993 Membership Directory page 130.
[VHPA Databases] Vietnam Helicopter Pilots Association Databases.
[1996 Information Please Almanac] 1995 Information Please Almanac Atlas & Yearbook 49th edition, Houghton Mifflin Company, Boston & New York 1996, pages 117, 161 and 292.
[Burkett] Stolen Valor: How the Vietnam Generation was Robbed of its Heroes and its History by B.G. Burkett and Glenna Whitley, Verity Press, Inc., Dallas, TX, 1998. Book review.
[People.com] Vietnam 25 Years Later, by Joe Treen, People.com, 21 April 2000.


Other references:

VC and NVA murders

Statistics Of Vietnamese Democide Estimates, Calculations, And Sources by R.J. Rummel

Updated:  2 June 2008

      Gary Roush
      242 ASHC Muleskinners
      Information by: roush@vhpa.org

Return to the VHFCN Homepage
---------------
A battle long forgotten by our country in a war never understood by our country.
"to satisfy our endless needs and justify our bloody deeds, in the name of destiny and in the name of God"


John R. Price
Wilkes-Barre, PA, USA
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant
Posts: 523

Re: 50 years ago: Camp Carroll, Republic of Vietnam
Posted on: 10/20/2017 7:40:09 PM
First it was called a tour of duty.

For attitude towards Vietnamese its going to differ from time period of service to MOS to area stationed to duty performed. The most positive are going to come from those who served as advisors or Special Forces who lived and worked/fought with Vietnamese every day of their tour. The worst would most likely come from most of the ground combat units out of mistrust and fear.

As for draftee vs volunteer try "Hue 1968." Good account of a volunteer officer and his draftee radioman assigned to advise a unit attached to the 1st ARVN Division.

The change in attitude is impossible to categorize because it changed in so many different ways with each individual depending on dozens of factors. If you are asking were they looking forward to going home as the DEROS day neared I think that would be universal but that would be about the only thing.

Number 3 is answered in the 2 copy and paste but somehow I think its not going to satisfy you and you will reject it.

Advisors to the ARVN prior to the deployment of US ground troops did volunteer for duty in Vietnam. Once ground troops were deployed if you were order you went for the 1st 1 year tour of duty, 13 months if you were a Marine, any other tours you volunteered for.

Plus your questions are slanted so as to get a negative answer.
---------------
A battle long forgotten by our country in a war never understood by our country.
"to satisfy our endless needs and justify our bloody deeds, in the name of destiny and in the name of God"


George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5510

Re: 50 years ago: Camp Carroll, Republic of Vietnam
Posted on: 10/20/2017 8:06:19 PM
Yeah John. I found those cut and pastes on the web. It's an easy search.

There are plenty of sites that would try to disprove the narrative that some American soldiers did their duty even though they felt that the war was unjust.

You provided one site that wishes to dispel the claim that the US lost this war John.

I am looking for academic studies that may have delved into the attitude of the American soldier during the Vietnam War.

Yours don't do it.

And you aren't interested in finding out John.


John R. Price
Wilkes-Barre, PA, USA
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant
Posts: 523

Re: 50 years ago: Camp Carroll, Republic of Vietnam
Posted on: 10/20/2017 10:02:11 PM
Try JSTOR, The Scholarly Journal Archive.

Just wonder but if you know so much wouldn't you have already read a few of these academic studies? Wouldn't you have read in book written by vets how they felt about their service? Or read quotes in books and papers from vets how they felt about their experiences and service? Wouldn't you have talked to a number of vets and heard with your own ears their stories?

Interested in finding out? I already have and have heard from vets on both sides of the issue first hand. I personally know at least 30 Vietnam Vets and have talked to every single one of them about the war and their service at length. How many have you? I've averaged at least 5 books read a year on the war since high school which I started 41 years ago. I've read I don't know how many articles and a fair number of academic papers. But hey you know more and your knowledge based opinions are more valid. Good luck!
---------------
A battle long forgotten by our country in a war never understood by our country.
"to satisfy our endless needs and justify our bloody deeds, in the name of destiny and in the name of God"


George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5510

Re: 50 years ago: Camp Carroll, Republic of Vietnam
Posted on: 10/21/2017 5:44:41 AM
No I cannot match that John. But I too lived through the period.

Your country was on fire John. War protests and race riots by the thousands.

Were they all traitors? Do you have an appreciation for the reasons that they were out in the streets and for that matter while protests against the Vietnam war happened all over the world?

Some of the protesters were men who had served and they said that it was time to bring the men home.

With your wide advantage in reading of this era I presume then that I can conclude that you believe:

-that communism was as real a threat as your government and mine told us that it was and that there was no paranoia in your country especially.

(BTW, I think that the allied and later NATO actions, post war, in Europe to thwart the USSR in that geographical area were entirely necessary. I do not think that the USSR had expansionist plans beyond the buffer zone that they had created out of WW2)

-that the Domino Theory was proved correct and that the Vietnam war stopped the fall of the dominoes

-that this war was just and that intervention in another foreign country was also just because they were a direct threat to the USA

-that every soldier who fought in Vietnam was politically astute enough to understand why his government sent him there.


I will say it again John. Every man and woman who was sent over there deserves praise and should be honoured. Some of the treatment that they received upon return was misguided and unfair.

By 1969, a wide majority of Americans felt that entry into Vietnam had been a mistake.

Pres. Nixon, a vile man, had made a speech at one point in the war when he called upon the silent majority to rise up and combat the influence of the war protesters, whom he hated. It worked, for a while, but by 1969, most Americans had an opinion that this war was unjust and unnecessary.

By 1967, your Senate Foreign Relations Committee was urging Pres. Johnson to ask the UN security council to assist in ending the war.

Were they all traitors to a just cause?

Lastly, it is interesting that you would take the pissing contest route in a discussion to lend weight to your arguments which I find to be disjointed and poorly expressed.



John R. Price
Wilkes-Barre, PA, USA
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant
Posts: 523

Re: 50 years ago: Camp Carroll, Republic of Vietnam
Posted on: 10/21/2017 10:59:27 AM
Disjointed and poorly expressed? Who said that Russia agreed to remover her troops from the Indochina peninsula per agreements reached at Yalta in preparation of free election in Vietnam? Who brought up the picture of the little girl blaming it on the US? Oh and could you show me exactly where I called anybody but Hanoi Jane and maybe Kerry a traitor, or where I've ever said a bad work about MLK or the Civil Rights Movement, which I may add is a separate issue from the war no matter how much your mind links them? STOP PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH!

P. S. Stop pissing into the wind, haven't you ruined too many of your shoes already.

EDIR You bring up Nixon being a vile man and then the majority of the people being against the war but the problem with that is the majority of the people elected that vile man President twice. Just because the majority believe one thing or act one way doesn't mean its the right thing to believe or the right action to take.
---------------
A battle long forgotten by our country in a war never understood by our country.
"to satisfy our endless needs and justify our bloody deeds, in the name of destiny and in the name of God"


George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5510

Re: 50 years ago: Camp Carroll, Republic of Vietnam
Posted on: 10/23/2017 8:35:36 PM
You're rambling John. Each post is a sequence of "yeah buts". Disjointed and unrelated.

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