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The current time is: 12/13/2017 6:17:22 AM
 (2000-Pres) Current Day Military talk (No Partisan Politics)    
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kaii
Edinburgh, UK
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major


Posts: 1937

Nordics gearing up
Posted on: 3/1/2017 12:47:17 PM
The Finnish government announced yesterday that they will expand the size of the armed forces, so that the Finnish Army - on mobilisation - would field a total of 280,000 men. This is an increase of 30,000 from the previous plans. The Finns have also been busy building prepared positions along forest roads etc and artillery charts are updated - much like the preparations before the Winter War in 1939.



The Finnish Army is the only army in the Nordic region of any quantitative substance after years of defence cuts, the Norwegian Army, whilst very high quality, for instance counts now just around 35,000 on mobilisation (+around 50,000 Home Guard local Light Infantry units). The Norwegian government has just initiated a "Land Power Study" which, hopefully will bring the Norwegian army back to strength of at least 4 brigades (currently only one Brigade HQ remains).
The Swedish armed forces are in even worse state but are also slowly being rebuilt.


In March, Joint Viking 2017 will bring 8,000 soldiers to Finnmark county in Northern Norway for three weeks of exercises. In addition to Norway, units from UK (Royal Marines) and the USA (US Marines, US Army) will take part. The Russians are working themselves up, of course, and the Norwegian army has said that any drones over the exercise area will be shot down.



One thing I always wondered about when I was in the Norwegian Army: what happens if the Russians attack in the summer? Most training and equipment is designed for winter warfare, and a Russian attack in, say July, would seriously mess with that...

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You can be a Dictator or you can design ladies undergarments. You can't do both (Bertie Wooster)

Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 2959

Re: Nordics gearing up
Posted on: 3/1/2017 6:44:51 PM
Good point Kai,

I hope that there is a contingency plan if it was summer warfare?

What can happen, may happen?
MD
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

kaii
Edinburgh, UK
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major


Posts: 1937

Re: Nordics gearing up
Posted on: 3/1/2017 7:39:15 PM

Quote:
Good point Kai,

I hope that there is a contingency plan if it was summer warfare?

What can happen, may happen?
MD
--Michigan Dave


I think maybe we'd just dress like reindeer moss, hide out and wait for the first snow Dave...:-)
---------------
You can be a Dictator or you can design ladies undergarments. You can't do both (Bertie Wooster)

Brian Williams
Atlanta, GA, USA
Administrator


Posts: 368
http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com
Re: Nordics gearing up
Posted on: 3/2/2017 7:35:53 PM
Sweden's government approved mandatory military service for 18 years olds. The defense minister said it will apply to both men and women for the first time.

kaii
Edinburgh, UK
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major


Posts: 1937

Re: Nordics gearing up
Posted on: 3/3/2017 2:16:13 AM

Quote:
Sweden's government approved mandatory military service for 18 years olds. The defense minister said it will apply to both men and women for the first time.
--Brian Williams


That is correct Brian, Sweden reintroduced national service (it has been on hold since 2010). Initially 4,000 (of a total of 90,000 or so) 18 year olds will serve each year for 11 months before being moved to the reserves.
Norway and Finland already operates a similar system which also applies to both genders.
---------------
You can be a Dictator or you can design ladies undergarments. You can't do both (Bertie Wooster)

Brian Williams
Atlanta, GA, USA
Administrator


Posts: 368
http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com
Re: Nordics gearing up
Posted on: 3/6/2017 12:42:14 AM
Sweden only has 90,000 18 yr olds? We have 90,000 18 yr olds in my county alone at least. Ok, well, in the north Atlanta counties at least.

I've been watching various news about this, but does it really matter? Russia will never invade Scandinavia.

kaii
Edinburgh, UK
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major


Posts: 1937

Re: Nordics gearing up
Posted on: 3/6/2017 12:50:32 PM

Quote:
Sweden only has 90,000 18 yr olds? We have 90,000 18 yr olds in my county alone at least. Ok, well, in the north Atlanta counties at least.

I've been watching various news about this, but does it really matter? Russia will never invade Scandinavia.
--Brian Williams

.
Yeah just about 90,000 18 year olds every year in Sweden apparently (there are only 10 mill people in Sweden)

Never is a long time of course, but you are right that it is highly unlikely Russia will invade Scandinavia any time soon. The Russians appear to have accepted that Finland is lost to their empire, and they don't really have any territorial claims in Norway and Sweden, historically or at the moment.

This is not really about building forces capable of beating the Russians, well, for Finland it is probably, but rebuilding back to a credible level of deterrent against any state that might get tempted to nibble away at the assets of these countries. The Russians might well get tempted to take, say Svalbard, parts of the new oil fields in the Barents Sea or nibble a bit of land in the North where there are now sizeable Russian populations (and, as it looks might hold sizeable diamond deposits), if they thought NATO would not care. NATO might not care about a limited incursion that would be seen as a border adjustment squabble rather than an invasion.

To be blunt: Ultimately these projects are really about showing the US that "look, we are doing what we can, so please come and help us if the shit hits the fan", much like sending troops to Afghanistan and Iraq was.
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You can be a Dictator or you can design ladies undergarments. You can't do both (Bertie Wooster)

BWilson

top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 3517

Re: Nordics gearing up
Posted on: 3/6/2017 3:04:56 PM
To be blunt: Ultimately these projects are really about showing the US that "look, we are doing what we can, so please come and help us if the shit hits the fan", much like sending troops to Afghanistan and Iraq was.

 If NATO does "fail", a real tragedy will be that -were- certain European countries that were genuinely invested in the ideal, and who were willing to commit troops in faraway locations, though they could have begged off. I count Norway among them.

Cheers

BW
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With occasional, fatigued glances at life's rear-view mirror from the other side of time.

kaii
Edinburgh, UK
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major


Posts: 1937

Re: Nordics gearing up
Posted on: 3/6/2017 4:23:05 PM

Quote:
To be blunt: Ultimately these projects are really about showing the US that "look, we are doing what we can, so please come and help us if the shit hits the fan", much like sending troops to Afghanistan and Iraq was.

 If NATO does "fail", a real tragedy will be that -were- certain European countries that were genuinely invested in the ideal, and who were willing to commit troops in faraway locations, though they could have begged off. I count Norway among them.

Cheers

BW
--BWilson


Indeed, when Norway (and Denmark) abandoned their traditional neutrality after ww2, it was to a great extent based on ideals and joint values with the west ... and a good dose of fear about the Soviets of course.

To be honest, I believe the US-UK-Norway alliance that was established in ww2 is still pretty strong and would probably survive the dissolution of NATO, partly also given the location of Norway as the gate keeper for Russian subs entering the Atlantic and the value of intel gathered by Norwegian stations along the Russian border.

The UK and Norway have signed fairly comprehensive alliance documents on top of the NATO commitments, and same goes for Us and Norway, with pre-positioning agreements and training for US marines etc that are based on bilateral agreements rather than NATO agreements as such.

Should NATO fail, there would probably, be a renewed attempt at getting a true Nordic alliance o its feet. Last time it failed because Norway and Denmark were already invested in NATO, but who knows what happens in the future. A true Nordic alliance could probably work as a good replacement for NATO to a certain extent.
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You can be a Dictator or you can design ladies undergarments. You can't do both (Bertie Wooster)

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