MHO Home   Forum Home   Help   Register   Login
 
 
Welcome to MilitaryHistoryOnline.com.
You are not signed in.
The current time is: 12/18/2017 7:43:21 AM
 (2000-Pres) Current Day Military talk (No Partisan Politics)    
AuthorMessage
Page 1 of 2 (Page: 1  2 )
James W.
Ballina, Australia
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant


Posts: 674

Aussie P.M. Announces Military Combat Roles are Open to Women.
Posted on: 3/8/2017 3:34:58 AM
On 'International Womens Day' P.M. Trumble has ok'd female military combat capability..

If he really wants 'gender equality' - will he be sending female defence personnel into combat exclusively, until the number of deaths on ops are equal to men, too?

Lightning
Glasgow, UK
top 20
E-7 Sgt First Class


Posts: 459

Re: Aussie P.M. Announces Military Combat Roles are Open to Women.
Posted on: 3/8/2017 11:21:30 AM
James,

I think that female members of the armed forces around the world have been champing at the bit to get their chance for nearly 100 years now - they would have been in the trenches (so to speak) long before now, if they'd had their way. The decision to get them into combat roles is the right one, IMO, as long as they can pass the same entrance tests as males.

I don't think quips about equality of combat deaths are appropriate either, tbh, they just belittle what should be a momumentous milestone in the history of the US armed forces.

Cheers,

Colin
---------------
"There is no course open to us but to fight it out. Every position must be held to the last man: there must be no retirement. With our backs to the wall and believing in the justice of our cause, each one of us must fight to the end."

BWilson

top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 3554

Re: Aussie P.M. Announces Military Combat Roles are Open to Women.
Posted on: 3/8/2017 11:44:35 AM
they just belittle what should be a momumentous milestone in the history of the US armed forces.

Whose armed forces ?

Cheers

BW
---------------
With occasional, fatigued glances at life's rear-view mirror from the other side of time.

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 6103
http:// 82.44.47.99
Re: Aussie P.M. Announces Military Combat Roles are Open to Women.
Posted on: 3/8/2017 11:45:16 AM
In the UK-senior officers have stressed there will be no easing of standards and women would be held to the same tests as men.

There will be no quota for women and forecasts predict only around 40 women a year will apply; and be able to meet the standards for ground close combat roles across the entire Armed Forces, compared to thousands of male recruits.

Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5737

Re: Aussie P.M. Announces Military Combat Roles are Open to Women.
Posted on: 3/8/2017 11:46:11 AM
Hi Colin. I think that this milestone event relates to developments in Australia.

I don't understand James W's comment either and perhaps he will explain it.

This statement needs explanation:


Quote:
If he really wants 'gender equality' - will he be sending female defence personnel into combat exclusively, until the number of deaths on ops are equal to men, too?


Does it mean that women have not been shouldering their fair share? Perhaps the implication is that a squad of women in combat could not ever hope to be as competent as a squad of men. What say you James?

I will add that Canada lost its first female combat soldier in Afghanistan in 2006. Capt. Nicola Goddard was hit by an RPG while supporting Afghan and Canadian troops in the Panjwai district in 2006, from her position in a LAV. As a forward observer, she had been calling in artillery fire on Taliban.

The troops under her command had great respect for her. She had qualified for combat as all the men had done and was an officer slated for advancement.

The men under her command and her commanding officers said that she would have been extremely angry that her death received so much attention just because of her gender. She would protest any concessions given to female soldiers including one in which CO Hope had ordered blanket partitions installed in the BAT's (big ass tents) that they all slept in, in Kandahar.

Not all women in the forces elect to qualify for combat duty. Some cannot physically meet the standard. But some can and are welcome to try.


It's not as though women in combat is unusual. The Israelis do it and we know that the Soviets, out of necessity, employed female soldiers in combat during WW2.

So good on Australia.



Cheers,

George

scoucer
Berlin, Germany
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 1958

Re: Aussie P.M. Announces Military Combat Roles are Open to Women.
Posted on: 3/8/2017 1:16:20 PM
I personally would not like to mess with the " Woman of the Sun" - the Yesiden and Kurdish woman`s battalions fighting ISIS with the Peschmerga. The Bundeswehr has been training them and the inside is that they are fearsome.

Trevor
---------------
`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie

Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.

Lightning
Glasgow, UK
top 20
E-7 Sgt First Class


Posts: 459

Re: Aussie P.M. Announces Military Combat Roles are Open to Women.
Posted on: 3/8/2017 5:05:42 PM
Apologies to all - don't know what came over me. Obviously meant to say Australia! Please allow me to put it down to a busy day at work, as I typed in haste during a brief moment of calm.

Looking forward to James' reply.

Cheers,

Colin
---------------
"There is no course open to us but to fight it out. Every position must be held to the last man: there must be no retirement. With our backs to the wall and believing in the justice of our cause, each one of us must fight to the end."

Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 2967

Re: Aussie P.M. Announces Military Combat Roles are Open to Women.
Posted on: 3/8/2017 6:58:45 PM
You Go Girl!
---------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

James W.
Ballina, Australia
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant


Posts: 674

Re: Aussie P.M. Announces Military Combat Roles are Open to Women.
Posted on: 3/8/2017 7:03:37 PM
Its fairly self-evident - surely, Colin.

Equality quantitatively &/or qualitatively..

Its the same in civilian work in fields where lives are at risk/lost.

Equal pay = equal risk, seems fair enough, no?


brian grafton
Victoria, BC, Canada
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Moderator


Posts: 1462

Re: Aussie P.M. Announces Military Combat Roles are Open to Women.
Posted on: 3/8/2017 9:00:25 PM
BS, James W. There's nothing self-evident about your post.

There isn't a single sensible argument suggesting that for women to match male participation they have to have died proportionally.

Using your argument, any 20th century service member should be infected with malaria, dengue and the like in order for them to catch up quantitatively with soldiers from the 19th century.

This isn't a question of equal pay = equal risk either, IMHO. Risk factor is only partly associated with a hostile environment. It's also associated with behaviours within that environment. If females can achieve similar results with fewer losses, would you punish them?

I find I'm equally well-served by females in medical, fire, police and/or emergency services as by males. In some cases, I'm served better, because gender differences have some effect on defining what a job might entail. And probably there might be specific circumstances where a male might serve me better.

If Australia's military is extending female service into combat roles, I assume the decision has been made because female service members have been found to be able to to the job as well as males have done in the past.

Females will die in combat. That is the risk military combat service implies, and it won't change because women go in harms way. Let those female soldiers who wish to be at the "sharp point" be there. Their commitment, capability, and understanding will enhance rather than diminish the abilities of front-line forces.

Cheers
Brian G
---------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly.

"The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.

James W.
Ballina, Australia
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant


Posts: 674

Re: Aussie P.M. Announces Military Combat Roles are Open to Women.
Posted on: 3/8/2017 11:48:56 PM
No need to go back to C19th Brian, (even C20th death rates would be unbearable), but C21st figures ought to be doable..

( again Brian.. if you need, or others really need - it spelled out, I am using 'feminist logic' here - as a 'Devil's advocate').

scoucer
Berlin, Germany
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 1958

Re: Aussie P.M. Announces Military Combat Roles are Open to Women.
Posted on: 3/9/2017 4:09:17 PM

Quote:
No need to go back to C19th Brian, (even C20th death rates would be unbearable), but C21st figures ought to be doable..

( again Brian.. if you need, or others really need - it spelled out, I am using 'feminist logic' here - as a 'Devil's advocate').
--James W.


But you are not succeeding James. Could be because the tone and intonation ( especially an Australian ) does not translate over in digital internet postings ? Adding emoticons might be helpful for us non-Aussies. Hope it isn´t so, and hope it is a matter of misunderstanding, but you are coming over as a grumpy misogynist hiding contempt behind sarcasism and rationalising irrational prejudice.

Trevor

Edit: And I am not one for PC crap.
---------------
`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie

Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5737

Re: Aussie P.M. Announces Military Combat Roles are Open to Women.
Posted on: 3/9/2017 5:55:09 PM
Hello James. Do you think that there is a place for women in combat roles in the armed forces of Australia? Why or why not?

It is a topic that has been discussed in every western country including those that determined that women had the right to try.

I think that the Canadian Forces have allowed women to try out for combat arms for about 20 years and even now, only 2.5% of the people in combat arms are women. Those that make it are excellent and a number have been decorated for actions in Afghanistan.

Cheers,

George

James W.
Ballina, Australia
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant


Posts: 674

Re: Aussie P.M. Announces Military Combat Roles are Open to Women.
Posted on: 3/9/2017 8:06:43 PM

Quote:

Quote:
No need to go back to C19th Brian, (even C20th death rates would be unbearable), but C21st figures ought to be doable..

( again Brian.. if you need, or others really need - it spelled out, I am using 'feminist logic' here - as a 'Devil's advocate').
--James W.


But you are not succeeding James. Could be because the tone and intonation ( especially an Australian ) does not translate over in digital internet postings ? Adding emoticons might be helpful for us non-Aussies. Hope it isn´t so, and hope it is a matter of misunderstanding, but you are coming over as a grumpy misogynist hiding contempt behind sarcasism and rationalising irrational prejudice.

Trevor

Edit: And I am not one for PC crap.

--scoucer



Trevor, you are reading way too much into this, &/or revealing your own hang-ups..

I am being quite straightforward, since with 'equality' in pay & roles, comes opportunity for equal burden sharing, inc' casualties..
So why is that being illogically misconstrued & misrepresented as "irrational prejudice"?

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5737

Re: Aussie P.M. Announces Military Combat Roles are Open to Women.
Posted on: 3/10/2017 7:10:39 AM
James, do you wish to present your views about women in combat roles in a clear manner so that I may understand whether you are in approval or opposition and your rationale?
It could be a good discussion.

Cheers,

George

scoucer
Berlin, Germany
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 1958

Re: Aussie P.M. Announces Military Combat Roles are Open to Women.
Posted on: 3/10/2017 11:07:43 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:
No need to go back to C19th Brian, (even C20th death rates would be unbearable), but C21st figures ought to be doable..

( again Brian.. if you need, or others really need - it spelled out, I am using 'feminist logic' here - as a 'Devil's advocate').
--James W.


But you are not succeeding James. Could be because the tone and intonation ( especially an Australian ) does not translate over in digital internet postings ? Adding emoticons might be helpful for us non-Aussies. Hope it isn´t so, and hope it is a matter of misunderstanding, but you are coming over as a grumpy misogynist hiding contempt behind sarcasism and rationalising irrational prejudice.

Trevor

Edit: And I am not one for PC crap.

--scoucer



Trevor, you are reading way too much into this, &/or revealing your own hang-ups..

I am being quite straightforward, since with 'equality' in pay & roles, comes opportunity for equal burden sharing, inc' casualties..
So why is that being illogically misconstrued & misrepresented as "irrational prejudice"?
--James W.


No James, you are not being quite straightforward. It is very hard to understand what you are truly saying. Hence the feedback about how you are coming over. Bizarre things like "feminist logic" - whatever that is (?) , just add to the confusion. There seems to be, for me, a disparity between what you say and what you mean. As I said , it could have to do with Aussie intonation - I am a scouser. Two scousers talking would be completely undiscipherable for outsiders even though it is english.


Quote:
If he really wants 'gender equality' - will he be sending female defence personnel into combat exclusively, until the number of deaths on ops are equal to men, too?
--James W.


Now that is a fairly confusing sentence. A rhetorical question, gender equality in " ". Far too many implied thoughts left open to interpretation.

As for my "hang ups", in this case, I have 3 adult daughters (and 3 granddaughters), who my wife and I have raised to be independent, self-reliant and self-confident. I am getting sick and tired of snowflake machos who can´t cope with the idea that there are strong women who aren´t interested in playing outdated roles.

Trevor


---------------
`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie

Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.

James W.
Ballina, Australia
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant


Posts: 674

Re: Aussie P.M. Announces Military Combat Roles are Open to Women.
Posted on: 3/10/2017 7:53:07 PM
What you are "...sick & tired of..."Trevor is your own concern..

Double standards - which often appear to be kept in readiness/applied - in 'women can do anything' scenarios, do bug me..

I'm looking for the 'proof of the pudding' - which is the opposite of what you imagine..

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5737

Re: Aussie P.M. Announces Military Combat Roles are Open to Women.
Posted on: 3/10/2017 10:30:35 PM
Hello James. I wish that you would state clearly what you believe.

So you are a skeptic is that it? What would constitute, "proof of the pudding" for you?

As well, what examples of the double standard to which you allude are evident in this military scenario?

Cheers,

George

James W.
Ballina, Australia
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant


Posts: 674

Re: Aussie P.M. Announces Military Combat Roles are Open to Women.
Posted on: 3/10/2017 11:00:03 PM
George, I can clearly state that I do not "believe" anything.

I will accept reliable evidence-based proof, however..

Why is it that female athletes cannot compete head-to-head with males in most/every athletic-based sporting competition with a quantitative scoring system?

I weigh ~100Kg/220lbs, what proportion of females in firefighting/soldiering could lift/carry me - a safe distance to rescue if needful?

Now, if the unit was all female, they would have a better chance of doing so for each other, surely, just as in sports competition?

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5737

Re: Aussie P.M. Announces Military Combat Roles are Open to Women.
Posted on: 3/11/2017 8:43:14 AM
Forgive me but I feel as though I am being played James.

You don't "believe" anything, correct? You seem to have biases though and whatever game you are playing, it seems that I must somehow determine just what the hell you are talking about.

And yet you stand ready to accept reliable evidence based proof. Proof of what, James?


You have yet to declare of what it is that you wish to be convinced. I and others can guess at your biases based upon the thinly masked hints that you provide. For example, your concerns about being carried by a female firefighter are a hint at your bias.

And since you won't clearly declare what it is you wish to debate, are the rest of us supposed to debate for you while you play moderator?

There seems to be some deliberate obfuscation here? That is why some have suggested that you are trolling.


Riaindevoy
Geelong, Australia
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major


Posts: 1118

Re: Aussie P.M. Announces Military Combat Roles are Open to Women.
Posted on: 3/11/2017 4:03:44 PM
Apparently the body armour used by the Army was designed by a woman and the diggers whinged about it constantly but she resisted this criticism. In the end she went to the sandpit, put the armour on and promptly collapsed.

I once saw a TV debate about this issue and a senior officer said that soldiers need to carry heavy loads, a feminist advocate replied that she questioned the need to carry such loads. So it appears that advocates are more than willing to sacrifice capability to get the girls on the line, no doubt they'll be the quislings when we lose a war because of this.
---------------
Vegetarian: the ancient tribal word for the villiage idiot; who was too stupid to hunt, fish and ride!

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5737

Re: Aussie P.M. Announces Military Combat Roles are Open to Women.
Posted on: 3/11/2017 5:16:22 PM
Have there been any concessions made to prospective women candidates for combat roles, in the physical requirements that must be met? In Australia that is?

Cheers,

George

wazza
Sydney , Australia
top 25
E-6 Staff Sergeant
Posts: 353

Re: Aussie P.M. Announces Military Combat Roles are Open to Women.
Posted on: 3/11/2017 5:26:07 PM
Yes George there has. Females get an extra few weeks- i think 4, of specialist physical conditioning.
This extra to the fitness requirements that you need to meet before showing up for recruit training.
It would be like showing up for marine boot camp at Paris Island with no prior prep, because you know that you will get specialist training before starting boots. Meanwhile the males kick their heels up doing shit jobs till the females are ready to join them.

Thus far, very few females have tried out for combat roles as infanteers or Commandos. Those that have from what I have heard have all been broken in training bar one or two.
We have female officers coming in to combat roles like engineers and armour but that's a whole different cycle again.
Most just don't want to do it as they are aware of how tough it is on the body and the demands on your lifestyle, especially with young family.

To be frankly honest, no one that I work with cares about gender politics as long as the people we lead do the job they are asked to do and don't whinge and complain for special treatment.

I am also at a loss to what James is trying to say or what answers he wants?

brian grafton
Victoria, BC, Canada
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Moderator


Posts: 1462

Re: Aussie P.M. Announces Military Combat Roles are Open to Women.
Posted on: 3/11/2017 9:49:58 PM

Quote:
George, I can clearly state that I do not "believe" anything.

I will accept reliable evidence-based proof, however..

Why is it that female athletes cannot compete head-to-head with males in most/every athletic-based sporting competition with a quantitative scoring system?

I weigh ~100Kg/220lbs, what proportion of females in firefighting/soldiering could lift/carry me - a safe distance to rescue if needful?

Now, if the unit was all female, they would have a better chance of doing so for each other, surely, just as in sports competition?


I'd suggest you lose some weight, James. Dunno if you're in the military, but you're certainly too heavy for a lot of folks to pack around, male or female!

I've been thinking about what is meant by combat arms. I assume it differs slightly from nation to nation, including different branches of the military depending on definition as much as anything. I've also been thinking about conscription in various forces around the world. And I don't necessarily see your argument holding water.

At least some – I dunno, maybe a majority – of nations with conscription include females in their military thinking. Some have highly successful militaries. I assume that's because not every job in the military requires brute strength, even in combat arms. If a female can meet standards of fitness, strength and capability, there is no reason why they should not be allowed to opt for combat arms.

Seems to me Wazza makes a sensible comment.
Quote:
Thus far, very few females have tried out for combat roles as infanteers or Commandos. Those that have from what I have heard have all been broken in training bar one or two.
We have female officers coming in to combat roles like engineers and armour but that's a whole different cycle again.
Most just don't want to do it as they are aware of how tough it is on the body and the demands on your lifestyle, especially with young family.


First: how many roles in the military require strength as the primary asset? Note, I ask "primary". There will be some, I suppose: Wazza, e.g., talks of Infantry and Commandos, and those are probably the ones that come to mind if one thinks army. I'm just not sure (and Wazza isn't either) that those are the only branches considered to be combat arms. And I'm not sure how different definitions might be when talking about naval or aviation assets. I would think, e.g., that any person aboard a military vessel on war status must be considered to be in combat. Drone pilots, although they may be engaged in air strikes, may not be considered combatants. Hell, they may not even be in the military!

Other side. Had I been American, I would have been eligible for the draft in the US during the 1960s ... at least until I married in 1966. I was healthy, with only some knee problems from working in lumber mills. My weight ranged from 135 to 150 lbs, but I was at the height of my strength at 145. My guess is that at least some of the females requesting combat service would have outweighed me, and maybe been able to outlift me. Does that mean that, had I been conscripted and sent to Nam that I would be considered a liability? Does it mean that requirements would be reduced to keep the bodies heading to 'Nam? I don't know whether I could have lugged you out of a fire zone had you been hit, because I don't know how I would respond in a fire zone. I also wouldn't know whether you would be any use to me just because you're big and strong.

James, the sports analogy is bullshit. This isn't just about muscle, and it isn't just about being fat. It's about being able to do a job. Use your own example. Could you take on and beat a top female athlete at weight-lifting? High jump? 100 m dash? Wrestling? My guess is the answer would be no. Or if you were in a position that you had to schlep 220 lbs of inert body, are your certain you could do it? Most female athletes at an elite level recognize that their skills are different than male skills at the same level. If men believe "bulling" their way through is what women will be judged by, I'm quite certain that most women will be smiling and thinking "finesse". Men are such self-focused, arrogant arses, don't you think?

It's also about wanting to do a job, whether you can qualify or not. Give females an opening, and let them test their capabilities. Let them do it without having to deal with sexist comments (such as your's appear to be). Females have strengths far beyond what most macho males (no, beyond what most males ... period) want to recognize.

Wazza is, IMHO, right. Females have every right to test their strengths against various demands for military action. If they fail, they have every right to explore other aspects of active duty. Were I in he military, I'd want to be able to trust my buddy. I don't believe that means my buddy must be male, large, heavy or anything else.

Cheers
Brian G

---------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly.

"The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.

James W.
Ballina, Australia
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant


Posts: 674

Re: Aussie P.M. Announces Military Combat Roles are Open to Women.
Posted on: 3/11/2017 9:52:42 PM

Quote:
Forgive me but I feel as though I am being played James.

You don't "believe" anything, correct? You seem to have biases though and whatever game you are playing, it seems that I must somehow determine just what the hell you are talking about.

And yet you stand ready to accept reliable evidence based proof. Proof of what, James?


You have yet to declare of what it is that you wish to be convinced. I and others can guess at your biases based upon the thinly masked hints that you provide. For example, your concerns about being carried by a female firefighter are a hint at your bias.

And since you won't clearly declare what it is you wish to debate, are the rest of us supposed to debate for you while you play moderator?

There seems to be some deliberate obfuscation here? That is why some have suggested that you are trolling.


--George



If anything George, this post of yours is closer to 'trolling' - given that you appear to be 'playing dumb'..

As R-D & W-a, have already noted.. it is an 'in your face' - thing, surely..

I suggest you check the percentiles of female recruits - who can match the male mean for upper-body strength, on test..

Do you accept that for arduous duties which require upper-body strength - such as combat infantry & fire fighting,
- very few women - can meet the standards required of every male candidate?

If women were in dedicated female/light-bodied male units, would they fare better? Or would there be an equipment/logistics problem?



James W.
Ballina, Australia
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant


Posts: 674

Re: Aussie P.M. Announces Military Combat Roles are Open to Women.
Posted on: 3/11/2017 10:24:21 PM

Quote:

Quote:
George, I can clearly state that I do not "believe" anything.

I will accept reliable evidence-based proof, however..

Why is it that female athletes cannot compete head-to-head with males in most/every athletic-based sporting competition with a quantitative scoring system?

I weigh ~100Kg/220lbs, what proportion of females in firefighting/soldiering could lift/carry me - a safe distance to rescue if needful?

Now, if the unit was all female, they would have a better chance of doing so for each other, surely, just as in sports competition?


I'd suggest you lose some weight, James. Dunno if you're in the military, but you're certainly too heavy for a lot of folks to pack around, male or female!

I've been thinking about what is meant by combat arms. I assume it differs slightly from nation to nation, including different branches of the military depending on definition as much as anything. I've also been thinking about conscription in various forces around the world. And I don't necessarily see your argument holding water.

At least some – I dunno, maybe a majority – of nations with conscription include females in their military thinking. Some have highly successful militaries. I assume that's because not every job in the military requires brute strength, even in combat arms. If a female can meet standards of fitness, strength and capability, there is no reason why they should not be allowed to opt for combat arms.

Seems to me Wazza makes a sensible comment.
Quote:
Thus far, very few females have tried out for combat roles as infanteers or Commandos. Those that have from what I have heard have all been broken in training bar one or two.
We have female officers coming in to combat roles like engineers and armour but that's a whole different cycle again.
Most just don't want to do it as they are aware of how tough it is on the body and the demands on your lifestyle, especially with young family.


First: how many roles in the military require strength as the primary asset? Note, I ask "primary". There will be some, I suppose: Wazza, e.g., talks of Infantry and Commandos, and those are probably the ones that come to mind if one thinks army. I'm just not sure (and Wazza isn't either) that those are the only branches considered to be combat arms. And I'm not sure how different definitions might be when talking about naval or aviation assets. I would think, e.g., that any person aboard a military vessel on war status must be considered to be in combat. Drone pilots, although they may be engaged in air strikes, may not be considered combatants. Hell, they may not even be in the military!

Other side. Had I been American, I would have been eligible for the draft in the US during the 1960s ... at least until I married in 1966. I was healthy, with only some knee problems from working in lumber mills. My weight ranged from 135 to 150 lbs, but I was at the height of my strength at 145. My guess is that at least some of the females requesting combat service would have outweighed me, and maybe been able to outlift me. Does that mean that, had I been conscripted and sent to Nam that I would be considered a liability? Does it mean that requirements would be reduced to keep the bodies heading to 'Nam? I don't know whether I could have lugged you out of a fire zone had you been hit, because I don't know how I would respond in a fire zone. I also wouldn't know whether you would be any use to me just because you're big and strong.

James, the sports analogy is bullshit. This isn't just about muscle, and it isn't just about being fat. It's about being able to do a job. Use your own example. Could you take on and beat a top female athlete at weight-lifting? High jump? 100 m dash? Wrestling? My guess is the answer would be no. Or if you were in a position that you had to schlep 220 lbs of inert body, are your certain you could do it? Most female athletes at an elite level recognize that their skills are different than male skills at the same level. If men believe "bulling" their way through is what women will be judged by, I'm quite certain that most women will be smiling and thinking "finesse". Men are such self-focused, arrogant arses, don't you think?

It's also about wanting to do a job, whether you can qualify or not. Give females an opening, and let them test their capabilities. Let them do it without having to deal with sexist comments (such as your's appear to be). Females have strengths far beyond what most macho males (no, beyond what most males ... period) want to recognize.

Wazza is, IMHO, right. Females have every right to test their strengths against various demands for military action. If they fail, they have every right to explore other aspects of active duty. Were I in he military, I'd want to be able to trust my buddy. I don't believe that means my buddy must be male, large, heavy or anything else.

Cheers
Brian G


--brian grafton




Yeah Brian,

I am no misogynist, my mother taught me basic boxing skills as a kid, which she'd learned from her very skilled brothers..
As I developed, she 'pulled her punches' less & less, so I feared no punches that any - would be - school bully could deliver..


I enjoyed playing Rugby football when I was young & fit, Brian - even if the training was not as much fun as the games..
I also enjoyed going hunting with my father as a teenager, in rough bush terrain, & I was able to carry the necessary kit & butchered meat out as required.

Strength & fitness development is an advantage, esp' if your natural body morphology is already gifted by genetics, I even won a bet with a light-weight
super-fit middle-distance runner, - I did not doubt he could beat me over a distance, but he did doubt that I could ever match him over any distance.. he
thought I was too heavy..
I warned him that I would use my Rugby skills ( I played wing & could sprint well) to catch & tackle him from a standing start, which I duly did...

Without boasting, I'd say that when I was in my toned, trained prime, there would be only a very few 'natural' women that could best my speed/strength skills.. & none at my local amateur competition level.. but if there had been one, she would've earned my respect on her merits, no drama..
So if by "different" skills athletics performance-wise, if you mean elite females cannot match elite males in quantitative measures, I agree..

Men have no copyright on arrogance, preening, showboating, or being bad losers, either IMO.. & yet do seem to manage without recourse to the 'double standard'..

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5737

Re: Aussie P.M. Announces Military Combat Roles are Open to Women.
Posted on: 3/11/2017 10:43:15 PM
I was thinking about James W's comment about the ability of a woman to carry a 100 kg man from a burning building or from a battle field.

I know that female firefighters do have to drag heavily weighted dummies in their training and they do hoist that same dummy and live buddies in a fireman's carry.

It is because they use the large muscles of their legs that they are able to accomplish that task.

Women can demonstrate lower body strength in a leg press or squat that is, while not equal to that of a man, is more than sufficient to hoist a heavy man over her shoulders.

And trained female athletes can leg press and squat prodigious masses.

Clearly, men have greater upper body strength than women. There is a greater difference in the muscle mass of the upper body but the disparity is not so pronounced in the lower body.

[Read More]

But carrying someone from a battlefield is not all that defines a combat soldier, surely. The list of skills demanded of a combat soldier is longer than that isn't it?

Canadian soldiers who were women have distinguished themselves in combat and received praise from the men with whom they worked or commanded.

As well, female US soldiers have distinguished themselves in combat situations in Iraq and Afghanistan even though they were not officially permitted to do so. I don't know how that comes about. I suspect that the women were attached to combat units in support roles but accepted tasks equal to those in demands to those accepted by male colleagues.

Let them qualify if they can. We have wasted the talents of half the population for too long.

Cheers,

George

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5737

Re: Aussie P.M. Announces Military Combat Roles are Open to Women.
Posted on: 3/11/2017 10:56:32 PM

Quote:
If anything George, this post of yours is closer to 'trolling' - given that you appear to be 'playing dumb'..

As R-D & W-a, have already noted.. it is an 'in your face' - thing, surely..

I suggest you check the percentiles of female recruits - who can match the male mean for upper-body strength, on test..

Do you accept that for arduous duties which require upper-body strength - such as combat infantry & fire fighting,
- very few women - can meet the standards required of every male candidate?

If women were in dedicated female/light-bodied male units, would they fare better? Or would there be an equipment/logistics problem?


Yes, playing dumb with someone who until this post has lacked the courage to state his views clearly and whose posts are vague.


I have already indicated clearly that few women desire to enter into the combat trades but those who do deserve the opportunity to qualify and that many have distinguished themselves.

How about you James? Are you willing to state that you feel that there is no place for women in combat roles in Australia's forces? Other than upper body strength, is there anything else that should disqualify a woman from participation in combat roles?

If you agree to comment, that would be much more "in your face" than anything that you have posted to date.


James W.
Ballina, Australia
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant


Posts: 674

Re: Aussie P.M. Announces Military Combat Roles are Open to Women.
Posted on: 3/12/2017 1:06:11 AM
George I doubt you were/are really too "dunmb" to see the bleedin' obvious...

Put this way, my old man made the 1st XV Rugby team at his high school, & gifted his 'football' genes to me, genes that also attracted my mother to him..
No female student athlete at my high school could've made the 1st XV, even if co-ed had extended to trying out/playing Rugby unisex..

If the soldier candidates truly make it on merit - ( & AFAIR, firefighters do need upper-body strength from postures other than helped by thigh usage..)
- then all power to them, but if 'token' females are given preference on dubious 'affirmative action/double standards' grounds, then no, - that aint right..


As for that 'fluff piece' you linked, yeah ok, it shows a best-case scenario.. now find one that shows 'em fully equipped, soaking wet, on slippery footing...

wazza
Sydney , Australia
top 25
E-6 Staff Sergeant
Posts: 353

Re: Aussie P.M. Announces Military Combat Roles are Open to Women.
Posted on: 3/12/2017 2:24:41 AM
Well, all said and done, only time will tell with all this social engineering and politicking with gender equality.
Oh and I just recalled that the FARC in South America have a huge amount of female soldiers.... may be worth everyone reading up on them for some extra evidence. They seem to pull their weight in combat and pack carrying.

kaii
Edinburgh, UK
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major


Posts: 1948

Re: Aussie P.M. Announces Military Combat Roles are Open to Women.
Posted on: 3/12/2017 6:11:54 AM
Here you go. These are excellent soldiers designed, trained and used for different purposes and scenarios than male special forces.

They are no less effective though and have been very useful and successful in Afghanistan, Iraq and Africa.

Modern day soldiering is far more about brainpower than raw physical strength. Of course women can not compete on raw strength with men so you design equipment etc for women rather than men. That is a discussion that was ended 20 years ago and the world has moved forward since then.

[Read More]
---------------
You can be a Dictator or you can design ladies undergarments. You can't do both (Bertie Wooster)

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5737

Re: Aussie P.M. Announces Military Combat Roles are Open to Women.
Posted on: 3/12/2017 8:00:20 AM

Quote:
George I doubt you were/are really too "dunmb" to see the bleedin' obvious...

Put this way, my old man made the 1st XV Rugby team at his high school, & gifted his 'football' genes to me, genes that also attracted my mother to him..
No female student athlete at my high school could've made the 1st XV, even if co-ed had extended to trying out/playing Rugby unisex..

If the soldier candidates truly make it on merit - ( & AFAIR, firefighters do need upper-body strength from postures other than helped by thigh usage..)
- then all power to them, but if 'token' females are given preference on dubious 'affirmative action/double standards' grounds, then no, - that aint right..


As for that 'fluff piece' you linked, yeah ok, it shows a best-case scenario.. now find one that shows 'em fully equipped, soaking wet, on slippery footing...
--James W.


Thanks for clarifying your position James. It took a while. I value plain speech.

For the record, I am not the only one on this thread who was nonplussed with your reluctance to state clearly your position and I did ask you three times, I believe, to state what everyone suspected your view would be. Your penchant for speaking metaphorically and to use forward slashes and multiple verbs/nouns/gerunds only made it more difficult to decipher your code.

What you regard as a simple issue and "bleedin' obvious" is clearly not how others perceive it.

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5737

Re: Aussie P.M. Announces Military Combat Roles are Open to Women.
Posted on: 3/12/2017 8:21:47 AM
Perhaps the military people could create a list for me of the different combat roles that a soldier could train for.

I guess I mean, "how many different trades are there available in combat arms?"

For example, is a combat engineer considered to be a combat role or are we only talking about the rifleman in his squad?


Cheers,

George

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 6103
http:// 82.44.47.99
Re: Aussie P.M. Announces Military Combat Roles are Open to Women.
Posted on: 3/12/2017 8:34:53 AM
In Commonwealth Countries today- the combat arms in the Army are:

Infantry
Armoured
Artillery
Combat Engineers
Combat Aviation
Field Air Defence

Source-Military Nomenclature

Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

scoucer
Berlin, Germany
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 1958

Re: Aussie P.M. Announces Military Combat Roles are Open to Women.
Posted on: 3/12/2017 9:09:20 AM

Quote:
Well, all said and done, only time will tell with all this social engineering and politicking with gender equality.
Oh and I just recalled that the FARC in South America have a huge amount of female soldiers.... may be worth everyone reading up on them for some extra evidence. They seem to pull their weight in combat and pack carrying.
--wazza


Watched that docu on the FARC female soldiers last week. Impressive.

So, I´m finally getting a hang on this. The Australian Armed Forces, and no doubt other parts of society, are undergoing a process of social engineering and gender equality that Germany had about 15-20 years ago. And this is what has had James upset. My take on this is that some politicos/bürocrats usually use such things to profilate themselves and such things tend to have a "flavour of the month" feel. After a while it will be something else as some other politicos/bürocrats want to profilate themselves with something else.First of all, it gets blown out of all proportion ( sometimes taking on an ideological aspect ) and then dwindles away as it stops being so important. Usually brings "some" good and at least "food for thought". Stops an organisation getting crusty.

The experience with the german Armed forces was that some women make extremely good fighter pilots. In fact, some of the pilots flying Tornados in Syria at the moment are female pilots.

Trevor
---------------
`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie

Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.

James W.
Ballina, Australia
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant


Posts: 674

Re: Aussie P.M. Announces Military Combat Roles are Open to Women.
Posted on: 3/12/2017 8:45:11 PM

Quote:


Thanks for clarifying your position James. It took a while. I value plain speech.

For the record, I am not the only one on this thread who was nonplussed with your reluctance to state clearly your position and I did ask you three times, I believe, to state what everyone suspected your view would be. Your penchant for speaking metaphorically and to use forward slashes and multiple verbs/nouns/gerunds only made it more difficult to decipher your code.

What you regard as a simple issue and "bleedin' obvious" is clearly not how others perceive it.

--George



George, perhaps "for the record" - you can let "others" express themselves if they wish, & try to accept responsibility for your own difficulties in comprehension,(such as in "asking 3 times") or ascribing values such as "reluctance", "metaphorically" & "code" - to me - as rationalization for the cognitive dissonance, you feel.

To sum up, IMO, a modern, volunteer-based, professionally organised defence force/military surely must pick the best available career prospects on a merit basis,
& while showing principles of public policy in fair-dealing organisationally, ought not to be forced to accept underperforming recruits on PC grounds.

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5737

Re: Aussie P.M. Announces Military Combat Roles are Open to Women.
Posted on: 3/12/2017 9:54:46 PM
James, that last post is a load of equine waste. You like that phrase "cognitive dissonance" don't you, misapplied as it is?

I think that you have used it twice directed at two different people on two different threads.

I do not hold contradictory beliefs on this subject and certainly I am not stressed by anything that you have said or my beliefs, so there can be no cognitive dissonance, can there?

Comprehension is not usually a problem with me but I confess that I did have to read and reread your earlier posts to discover that you weren't really going to commit to a stance.

I actually posed the question three times to give you an out before you shot yourself in the other foot. Honestly, I was trying to be kind because you had backed yourself into a corner and were trying to justify your incoherent comments.

Not much more to say here.




James W.
Ballina, Australia
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant


Posts: 674

Re: Aussie P.M. Announces Military Combat Roles are Open to Women.
Posted on: 3/12/2017 11:35:44 PM
George, I made it clear from the O.P., what my 'opinion' was, & your asking "3 times" - could be perceived as tantamount to 'trolling'- IMO..

If by "equine waste" you mean hoof glue, then you sure got stuck to the 'tar baby' ( of your own imagining)..

& the term 'cognitive dissonance' most definitely applies in both the instances used.. - & you can add 'denial' in your case, if you wish..

Kaii's interesting link directly addresses the potential for the question I posed in the O.P..

James W.
Ballina, Australia
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant


Posts: 674

Re: Aussie P.M. Announces Military Combat Roles are Open to Women.
Posted on: 3/13/2017 5:24:20 AM
Ok so, here's a bit of cultural/anthropological context ( note: language/humour/PC warning!)
- that demonstrates the 'action-stations' differences in hormonal effects of testosterone/adrenaline in the same species/different gender..

[Read More]

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 6103
http:// 82.44.47.99
Re: Aussie P.M. Announces Military Combat Roles are Open to Women.
Posted on: 3/13/2017 5:55:47 AM
James-you have got to be taking the mickey-what the hell was all that about
-the filthy language was so egregious and absolutely unnecessary here-where members just want plain and simple answers to their questions. C'mon James "play a straight bat"

Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

 (2000-Pres) Current Day Military talk (No Partisan Politics)    
Page 1 of 2 (Page: 1  2 )
 Forum Ads from Google