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 (2000-Pres) Current Day Military talk (No Partisan Politics)    
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Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 2770

UK Parliment attacked 4 dead, 20 injured! What next?
Posted on: 3/22/2017 6:41:41 PM
Another despicable attack on the West!?

[Read More]

Terrorists again??
tragic,
MD
---------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

mick
Belfast, Ireland
top 50
E-4 Specialist


Posts: 79

Re: UK Parliment attacked 3 dead, 20 injured! What next?
Posted on: 3/22/2017 6:50:20 PM
Hi Dave,its now 5 dead and many more injured some serious including a number of Police Officers.
---------------
Sir,I'll have you know I cannot be bought and I cannot be threatened,but you put the two together and I'm your man.

brian grafton
Victoria, BC, Canada
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Moderator


Posts: 1309

Re: UK Parliment attacked 3 dead, 20 injured! What next?
Posted on: 3/22/2017 9:19:37 PM
MD, despicable or not, a nasty, ugly, vicious assault. Sad to face the deaths of those unlucky enough to be targeted, of course. Sad to have to go through the aftermath as well.

Clean-up time will tell us more, of course, but will not make anyone anywhere feel any safer.

Now up to five dead: I didn't know. But all praise to the MP who attempted to save the life of a "bobby" assigned to protect the Mother of all Parliaments. The "bobby" gave his life, and the MP did what he could to repay the cost of his protection. Nobody won except the human spirit.

Brian G
---------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly.

"The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 5954
http:// 82.44.47.99
Re: UK Parliment attacked 3 dead, 20 injured! What next?
Posted on: 3/23/2017 8:54:08 AM
Well said Brian-my sentiments entirely-thank you for expressing what most ordinary people will be thinking.


Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

mine run
Halifax Co., VA, USA
top 40
E-4 Corporal
Posts: 97

Re: UK Parliment attacked 3 dead, 20 injured! What next?
Posted on: 3/23/2017 11:05:13 AM
It is absolutely mind boggling to me, an American, that the London police officer who was killed by this radical Islamic terrorist had no firearm with which to defend himself. At least that is what I have seen reported. This is especially stunning because the officer was guarding what anyone in his right mind would have considered to be a "high value" target.

I am aware that Bobbies are not armed as they guard or patrol the streets. I have visited London more than once. Perhaps there was a time in London when there was a sort of "gentlemen's agreement"between common criminals and the underworld there not to use guns when the miscreants went about their illegal business. It would appear that British lawmakers have their collective heads in the sand for one reason or another, perhaps a PC culture run amok today. To restrict law enforcement from having he ability to protect itself and the public against radical Islamic terrorists seems an insane policy. The world has changed and no amount of candle light vigils and vapidly soothing platitudes from the politicians who keep law enforcement disarmed will stop these killers from their psychopathic behavior.

Had that poor police officer been armed, in all likelihood he would be alive today. Of course every oountry gets the government it deserves, so if the citizens of London are willing to accept the risks involved with an inadequately armed police force it is certainly their business.

Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 2770

Re: UK Parliment attacked 3 dead, 20 injured! What next?
Posted on: 3/23/2017 11:29:30 AM
I agree mr.

UK police guarding such a high profile site need to be armed!? The latest on who's responsible for this sick attack!

[Read More]

[Read More]

MD
---------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

morris crumley
Lawrenceville, GA, USA
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 1189

Re: UK Parliment attacked 3 dead, 20 injured! What next?
Posted on: 3/23/2017 11:57:13 AM
I have also heard that the police who guard that area, for a time, were armed, but recently they were disarmed.

But, as the Mayor of London, Sadiq Khan has said, terror attacks are just a part of living in the big city. Traffic snarls, parking tickets, the symphony and the art gallery`s and pubs....and the odd being run over, stabbed shot or hatchet ed in the name of.....

Respects, Morris
---------------
"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5301

Re: UK Parliment attacked 3 dead, 20 injured! What next?
Posted on: 3/23/2017 12:10:49 PM
Hello mine run,

I asked the same question myself but then Britons don't murder at anywhere near the rate of the US, do they? For that matter, Canada's murder rate by firearm appalls me and it is tiny when compared to the US.

They are able to police their country largely without resorting to shooting citizens.

Sadly, 256 officers have been shot since 1945 but while we may argue that far fewer would have been killed had they been armed, that would have demanded a substantial change in police culture and to British culture.

I would have to check but I believe that UK police are shot at the rate of 0-2 per year.

But I think that they have made adjustments to the terrorist threats.

I was there during the 2005 attacks and the next day while on the tube, the presence of heavily armed officers was well noted. A bit scary actually.

So it seems that they have officers well trained in the use of weapons but, and I don't want to speak for them, but my British friends do not identify a need for the local community police officer to be armed. Nor do they seem to want it.

If a threat emerges, well trained and armed officers are despatched. Important installations do have armed police including airports and government buildings.

There is nothing PC about it. I wish that our officers in Canada did not have to carry weapons and there has been talk in Toronto of taking away their guns. Nothing will come of it. We don't have the political will to restrict weapons possession by the public any more than we have.

But to characterize them as "inadequately armed" imposes a distinctly American mindset, don't you think? It makes the assumption that a police officer cannot perform his job without a gun. It assumes that a police officer will have to shoot a citizen at some point.

I think that we need to determine what the PC's assigned task was that day and whether he was in a critical guard position. I did read that the assailant jumped the fence and surprised this constable.

Within seconds, the assailant was dead as the armed officers at the door challenged him and then killed him.


Quote:
Of course every country gets the government it deserves, so if the citizens of London are willing to accept the risks involved with an inadequately armed police force it is certainly their business.


I don't see the absence of guns in a culture as an abrogation of responsibility by the government, whether federal or municipal.

If the British don't wish to live in a country where everyone is armed to the teeth and crime can be managed without every officer being armed, then more power to them.

They have a minuscule murder rate by firearm, by US and Canadian standards.

In 2011, there were 638 murders in England and Wales. 58 were by firearm. I acknowledge that there has been an uptick in the last year, after a decade of decreasing numbers.

I would guess that there will be a few Britons who will ask why this PC wasn't armed. It will be interesting to see whether they wish to substantially alter the way in which they are policed by giving every officer a gun.


Quote:
In England and Wales in the 12 months to March 2016, British police discharged their firearms on just seven occasions, the statistics, released on Thursday show.


For the sake of British, I hope that they can maintain this aspect of their culture. I find it inspiring.

It is a topic of discussion over there. Some interesting views expressed in this BBC article:

[Read More]

I was struck by one statement indicating that when Peel started the first police force, the people didn't want them to be armed, fearing oppression by the state.

Contrast that with the US amendment that guarantees the right of citizens to bear arms. It is my understanding that the Americans feared oppression by the state and wanted to be armed, just in case.

I am not offering criticism of either approach. It is interesting that the people of both cultures feared oppression by the state and allayed the fears of the people by taking different directions.

Cheers,

George



George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5301

Re: UK Parliment attacked 3 dead, 20 injured! What next?
Posted on: 3/23/2017 12:45:18 PM

Quote:
I have also heard that the police who guard that area, for a time, were armed, but recently they were disarmed.

But, as the Mayor of London, Sadiq Khan has said, terror attacks are just a part of living in the big city. Traffic snarls, parking tickets, the symphony and the art gallery`s and pubs....and the odd being run over, stabbed shot or hatchet ed in the name of.....

Respects, Morris
--morris crumley


Rather than repeat something that Trump's idiot son said, why don't we examine the text of the comments.

Note that this half wit was quoting something that the mayor Sadiq Khan said last year and not in response to this attack. He was in New York and asked to make a comment on the explosions in NYC and surrounding towns.

Among other things he said this:


Quote:
"Part and parcel of living in a great global city is you have to be prepared for these sorts of things, you have to be vigilant, you have to support the police doing an incredibly hard job, you have to support the security services,"


Now that sounds a little different than what Trump junior decided to run off his mouth about, doesn't it?


Apparently it's true, the apple doesn't fall far from the tree.


Trump junior deserves to be raked over the coals for taking advantage of this situation in London. To what end I do not know.


George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5301

Re: UK Parliment attacked 3 dead, 20 injured! What next?
Posted on: 3/23/2017 12:49:44 PM
double

mine run
Halifax Co., VA, USA
top 40
E-4 Corporal
Posts: 97

Re: UK Parliment attacked 3 dead, 20 injured! What next?
Posted on: 3/23/2017 12:58:27 PM
George,

I seriously doubt that the family of the slain officer finds "that aspect of British culture "inspiring this morning.

The plain, simple obvious fact is that he would probably be alive today had he been armed. You cannot credibly deny that. You cannot philosophize that away with perhaps a holier than thou attitude. Perhaps i misinterpret you in that regard.

Yes, the American mindset regarding firearms is culturally different, for most of us at least, but to me it is absolutely foolish for law enforcement not to be armed, especially in high value target areas when we have a radical ideology ready to strike at any time and in any place. How many more police officers and citizens need to be killed before people start getting very, very angry about their lack of safety?

Again, there is no escaping the probability that the officer would be alive today had he been armed. Period.

Now I am not about to get involved in another useless debate over firearms in general. We have our laws, you have yours, Britain has its laws. Fine enough, that is the way sovereignty works. I just think that the loss of that police officer's life was a tragedy that the slightest amount of common sense could have prevented .

I have said all that I have to say on this one.

kaii
Edinburgh, UK
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major


Posts: 1884

Re: UK Parliment attacked 3 dead, 20 injured! What next?
Posted on: 3/23/2017 1:19:07 PM
This article discuses the question whether the police officer should have been armed. There is bound to be a debate coming about the policing of Parliament and other high profile targets.

[Read More]


As details emerge about the terrorist, it looks like a textbook case: British born, Pakistani young male with a petty criminal history and has been under investigation for radicalisation a few years ago, but was not on the radar as a potential threat now.

Just shows how incredibly difficult the job of the security services is in dealing with these cases.

EDIT I see the man was 52, so my use of "young male" was probably not spot on...
---------------
A fool and his money are soon elected.

morris crumley
Lawrenceville, GA, USA
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 1189

Re: UK Parliment attacked 3 dead, 20 injured! What next?
Posted on: 3/23/2017 1:19:42 PM
George....can you please get off the Trump this and Trump that crap. This is not a thread for partisan political discussion. I brought up the statement by the Mayor from last year..which I remembered because ...I have a fricking memory...allright!

I am beginning to think that you have become completely deranged and are incapable of doing anything but bringing up how much you despise the man into any discussion.

I don`t give a rip what Trump Jr. said. I said what I said. I find it hard to keep a straight face when reading about how guns and weapons were removed from guard stations outside of Parliament....that is not how one supports the police or security? It got one killed. Western civilization is told that we must sacrifice our shoes, our phone conversations, our dignity at airports...all because we must allow our security forces to find that "needle in a haystack"...and time and time again we find out that there is a stack of needles that no one wants to "inconvenience" as they do the entire haystack. Yet another guy that MI5 knew about as a dangerous extremist. Another case like the elder Tzarniev brother whom Russian authorities alerted US intell about...but nothing came of it until after the mess had to be scraped off of Boston streets. Like the Christmas bomber who`s own father alerted the authorities about his radicalization...yet nothing kept him from getting on a US bound plane and killing an entire plane load of people...except a faulty detonation and the airplane passengers themselves.

Respects, Morris
---------------
"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5301

Re: UK Parliment attacked 3 dead, 20 injured! What next?
Posted on: 3/23/2017 1:20:37 PM

Quote:
The plain, simple obvious fact is that he would probably be alive today had he been armed. You cannot credibly deny that. You cannot philosophize that away with perhaps a holier than thou attitude. Perhaps i misinterpret you in that regard.


And you Mine run cannot state that he would "probably be alive" without knowing the facts of the attack and how it unfolded.

You suggested that to refuse to arm was PC run amok.

I must remind you that it was you that made critical comments about the irresponsibility of the London municipal government in not arming all of their police officers. I could easily have construed that as a "holier than thou" statement I think.

Without getting into a long, fruitless article about gun control, I will suggest that you have presumed that every culture that doesn't arm its police officers has somehow done a disservice to them and to the citizenry.

You seem to have presumed that the US has gotten the relationship between police and the people it is supposed to serve absolutely correct. The US does have an inordinately large number of citizens killed by police.

America may have developed culturally so that it is necessary for everyone to be armed and where the death of citizens at the hands of the police is common, and where police lives are in danger every day.

I don't think that the Brits are in that state or want to get to that state. They have a different culture of policing.

Cheers,

George


George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5301

Re: UK Parliment attacked 3 dead, 20 injured! What next?
Posted on: 3/23/2017 1:23:28 PM
d

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5301

Re: UK Parliment attacked 3 dead, 20 injured! What next?
Posted on: 3/23/2017 1:35:36 PM

Quote:
George....can you please get off the Trump this and Trump that crap. This is not a thread for partisan political discussion. I brought up the statement by the Mayor from last year..which I remembered because ...I have a fricking memory...allright!


Apologies Morris. I had assumed that your reference was to the comments made by Trump jr yesterday, about the mayor of London.

It has been in all the media sources.

The comments echo yours.

BTW, you both got it wrong. Check your sources.

brian grafton
Victoria, BC, Canada
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Moderator


Posts: 1309

Re: UK Parliment attacked 3 dead, 20 injured! What next?
Posted on: 3/23/2017 5:33:39 PM
MR, to your "...Again, there is no escaping the probability that the officer would be alive today had he been armed. Period."

I get your argument, and in certain instances I would accept your "probability". I think it is because of the distinctions that exist between various cultures wrt arming folk that I can't whole-heartedly agree.

Like you, like George – in fact like just about anybody who has been to Britain – I have seen armed police on the streets and in places of public confluence. I've actually seen armed forces wearing what looked very like military uniforms, back in the early 1990s.

You probably walked near 10 Downing Street when you visited London. Most of the time, there are two bobbies on duty, IIRC. But you don't seriously believe there aren't well-armed and well-trained officers nearby, do you?

Pc Keith Palmer was on outer perimeter detail, which is largely the side that the public sees. He's the friendly bobby who answers questions and directs folks to the loo. Even had he been armed, he may not have used his weapon. His training and his function would have worked against it. He was there to maintain order, not to create disorder. Shooting a man running towards you without knowing his intentions (and events weere happening at a pretty rapid pace here), should the runner have been a pedestrian fleeing in panic from the car crash, would not, IMHO, have instilled an sense of safety or security in those in the immediate vicinity.

There were weapons aplenty on hand, as any quick scan of photos of the scene indicate, and as the death of the assailant demonstrates. Parliament is not left naked to aggressors.

Sadly, Pc Palmer and four others died during this incident. But there is no way to assume having Pc Palmer armed would have saved any lives at all. Nobody can be anything but saddened by his death, brave though he was. But when events such as these occur, people are often killed whether there is armed security or not.

As you say, MR, different cultures and differences in attitudes. Only the loss is the same.

Cheers
Brian G
---------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly.

"The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.

kaii
Edinburgh, UK
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major


Posts: 1884

Re: UK Parliment attacked 3 dead, 20 injured! What next?
Posted on: 3/23/2017 7:25:00 PM

Quote:
MR, to your "...Again, there is no escaping the probability that the officer would be alive today had he been armed. Period."

I get your argument, and in certain instances I would accept your "probability". I think it is because of the distinctions that exist between various cultures wrt arming folk that I can't whole-heartedly agree.

Like you, like George – in fact like just about anybody who has been to Britain – I have seen armed police on the streets and in places of public confluence. I've actually seen armed forces wearing what looked very like military uniforms, back in the early 1990s.

You probably walked near 10 Downing Street when you visited London. Most of the time, there are two bobbies on duty, IIRC. But you don't seriously believe there aren't well-armed and well-trained officers nearby, do you?

Pc Keith Palmer was on outer perimeter detail, which is largely the side that the public sees. He's the friendly bobby who answers questions and directs folks to the loo. Even had he been armed, he may not have used his weapon. His training and his function would have worked against it. He was there to maintain order, not to create disorder. Shooting a man running towards you without knowing his intentions (and events weere happening at a pretty rapid pace here), should the runner have been a pedestrian fleeing in panic from the car crash, would not, IMHO, have instilled an sense of safety or security in those in the immediate vicinity.

There were weapons aplenty on hand, as any quick scan of photos of the scene indicate, and as the death of the assailant demonstrates. Parliament is not left naked to aggressors.

Sadly, Pc Palmer and four others died during this incident. But there is no way to assume having Pc Palmer armed would have saved any lives at all. Nobody can be anything but saddened by his death, brave though he was. But when events such as these occur, people are often killed whether there is armed security or not.

As you say, MR, different cultures and differences in attitudes. Only the loss is the same.

Cheers
Brian G
--brian grafton


Very well put Brian.

---------------
A fool and his money are soon elected.

mine run
Halifax Co., VA, USA
top 40
E-4 Corporal
Posts: 97

Re: UK Parliment attacked 3 dead, 20 injured! What next?
Posted on: 3/23/2017 9:07:29 PM
Brian,

I have to agree with you that our differing cultures and how we each view law enforcement causes us to have differing opinions on this matter. Of course London has all kinds of armed security both obvious and sub rosa. And of course Britain has a much lower rate of homicide by gun. The point I was trying to make which George seems to have missed is that old ways of policing may be anachronistic because our world has changed. The era of Radical Islamic terror has given us a new paradigm. One can wax poetic about the virtues of unarmed police as a reflection of a more "civilized" society for lack of better words if you will, but tell that to the officer's survivors. The decision to not arm police officers in this instance was, in my opinion, a gross dereliction of duty by those responsible for the situation, The brutal fact is that he is almost certainly dead today because he was unarmed at a high value target. No one can logically explain those circumstances to me. Whatever security plan they had in place FAILED. The faulty logic lies not with you or George in my opinion because you are not charged with making the right decisions to protect law enforcement or the citizenry You and George are simply expressing opinions which you sincerely believe to be true just as I have.

I may have mentioned this once before, Perhaps the big reason for my concern about Radical Islamic terror attacks is due to the fact that on of my sisters, now a retired lawyer, just missed possible death in Twin Tower #1 on 9/11. Her firm was located just below Cantor & Fitzgerald which was all but wiped out. I was at my desk at my office when the word buzzed around the office and I immediately left and drove to my parents house where my 80 something parents were holding each other sitting on a sofa glued to the TV, full of fear. I sat t here with them until we at last received a phone call from her husband telling us she escaped harm. It was a gut wrenching time. To me, the scourge of Radical Islam is a cancer on this earth and it bothers me that so many western leaders seem to be unwilling to recognize it for what it is, treat it with band aids and that we live in a new world. By their naivete, pussy footing approach to the problem possibly for self serving political reasons they appear to be unknowingly willing to risk the lives of innocent civilians.

Ha! And I said I had no more comments on this issue!

MR




kaii
Edinburgh, UK
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major


Posts: 1884

Re: UK Parliment attacked 3 dead, 20 injured! What next?
Posted on: 3/23/2017 10:13:57 PM
.


---------------
A fool and his money are soon elected.

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5301

Re: UK Parliment attacked 3 dead, 20 injured! What next?
Posted on: 3/24/2017 6:57:46 AM

Quote:
.



--kaii


What happened to Kai's post? I scanned it last night and wanted to re-read it but the text has disappeared completely. Not even a "deleted".


Cheers,

George

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5301

Re: UK Parliment attacked 3 dead, 20 injured! What next?
Posted on: 3/24/2017 7:13:55 AM
Thanks for that last post mine run. It is a good reminder that events very close to us help to create our frame of reference.

I am happy that your sister escaped physically unscathed. The picture in my mind of your distraught parents trying to hold it together as they awaited news affected me.

Still I am not sure that there is much that we can do about people who call themselves Muslims but behave in a manner which garners disapproval from millions of other Muslims, and who are often the victims of the excesses of these groups.

The London terrorist was British. Born there and had lived a half century in that free country. The British will want to know how and why he became radicalized. He was known to them as a criminal and a person who held radical views. And still he struck.

EDIT: I was just reading that the man was named Adrian Russell Ajao at birth and was a Muslim convert. We have had a couple of converts like this in Canada. It seems to be a scenario that plays out quite frequently.

Elimination of groups like Al-Qaeda, Daesh or even the regional Taliban won't stop the radicalization of our own people.

So how do we minimize radicalization of our own people because I think it will continue so long as we feel that our presence in some parts of the world whose populations contain competing factions who profess to be the true Muslims, is necessary?


Again thanks for your views,

George



Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 2770

Re: UK Parliment attacked 3 dead, 20 injured! What next?
Posted on: 3/24/2017 8:34:39 AM

Quote:
.



--kaii




Kai,

What were you thinking??? inquiring minds want know??

MD
---------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

morris crumley
Lawrenceville, GA, USA
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 1189

Re: UK Parliment attacked 3 dead, 20 injured! What next?
Posted on: 3/24/2017 9:47:06 AM
"...the scourge of Radical Islam is a cancer on this earth and it bothers me that so many western leaders seem to be unwilling to recognize it for what it is, treat it with band-aids, and that we live in a new world. By their naivete, pussy footing approach to the problem, possibly for self-serving political reasons, they appear to be unknowingly willing to risk the lives of innocent civilians."

Absolutely amen to that brother!

And I`m sick and tired of the "home grown" syndrome. The monster who turned up in that gay nightclub in Florida and killed so many was not "home grown"....he was a second generation immigrant, the son of an effin` Taliban supporting father ...a family that never embraced what living in the United States is supposed to be about. Born here...but not of here...not being a true part of here. Same with the asshole shooter in California who shot up the Christmas party along with his mail order "Jihad Joan." They are similar in thought to the family a friend of mine married into. Came to America from Columbia forty years ago for the work...never learned to speak English, fly the Colombian flag in his front yard in New York state...and really doesn`t think much of Gringos. Burred in like a tick...but not part of the dog.

This is the essence of multi-cultural ism...tribalize your country..and for what purpose? To what end?

Respects, Morris
---------------
"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."

scoucer
Berlin, Germany
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 1923

Re: UK Parliment attacked 3 dead, 20 injured! What next?
Posted on: 3/24/2017 10:17:44 AM

Quote:
George....can you please get off the Trump this and Trump that crap. This is not a thread for partisan political discussion. I brought up the statement by the Mayor from last year..which I remembered because ...I have a fricking memory...allright!

I am beginning to think that you have become completely deranged and are incapable of doing anything but bringing up how much you despise the man into any discussion.Respects, Morris--morris crumley


Morris,

A part of the problem is the media here, even more so in the (still ) UK. No matter what happens, the first thing splattered all over the headlines is the Tweets or comments of a certain Mr. Trump. Why so, I dont know. Seems to hijack and mix up every theme.

Trevor
---------------
`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie

Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.

kaii
Edinburgh, UK
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major


Posts: 1884

Re: UK Parliment attacked 3 dead, 20 injured! What next?
Posted on: 3/24/2017 12:37:24 PM

Quote:

Quote:
.



--kaii


What happened to Kai's post? I scanned it last night and wanted to re-read it but the text has disappeared completely. Not even a "deleted".


Cheers,

George

--George


Ah sht I think I must have deleted it late yesterday when I wanted to include an EDiT based on info that the attacker was shot by the protection officer of Michael Fallon rather than an armed officer from the parliamentary gusrd detail. I blame my new phone.

Sorry about that. Not sure i even remember in details what i wrote now but it was probably very good...

---------------
A fool and his money are soon elected.

morris crumley
Lawrenceville, GA, USA
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 1189

Re: UK Parliment attacked 3 dead, 20 injured! What next?
Posted on: 3/24/2017 1:01:40 PM
Kaii, I can assure you from personal experience....a lost post...is most profound and the most important ever!

Respects, Morris
---------------
"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."

Riaindevoy
Geelong, Australia
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major


Posts: 1074

Re: UK Parliment attacked 3 dead, 20 injured! What next?
Posted on: 3/24/2017 7:36:27 PM
Perhaps coincidentally the morning of the London attack there was a story in The Australian about more NSW police getting long arms, which are currently limited to the ORG (SWAT or whatever), to deal with the likes of the London attacks. I'm in two minds about this; I sincerely do want terrorists gunned down on the street before they can complete whatever they are trying to do but I have seen cops spray capsicum spray into a crowd at the Tennis because of one dickhead so shudder to think what would happen with an M4.

[Read More]

As for armed cops, apparently it was a serious issue when Australia was colonised that cops were armed as it went against the grain for the British authorities. However given that there were bushrangers lurking in the 7km between Melbourne and St Kilda waterfront the Police had to armed from the very beginning.
---------------
Vegetarian: the ancient tribal word for the villiage idiot; who was too stupid to hunt, fish and ride!

brian grafton
Victoria, BC, Canada
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E-9 Sergeant Major
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Posts: 1309

Re: UK Parliment attacked 3 dead, 20 injured! What next?
Posted on: 3/24/2017 9:21:55 PM
Morris, just some thoughts concerning your comments. I'm no happier with the various acts of terror than you are. Just keep that in mind, please, while I not a couple of things.
Quote:
I`m sick and tired of the "home grown" syndrome. The monster who turned up in that gay nightclub in Florida and killed so many was not "home grown"....he was a second generation immigrant, the son of an effin` Taliban supporting father
I am a second generation Canadian, the grandson of an effin' Englishman whose commitment was to Queen Victoria.

"The monster" was, you suggest, part of
Quote:
...a family that never embraced what living in the United States is supposed to be about. Born here...but not of here...not being a true part of here. Same with the asshole shooter in California who shot up the Christmas party along with his mail order "Jihad Joan."
I don't actually think her name was "Jihad Joan". Are these "monsters" and "assholes" any different than the likes of the loonie who shot up the theatre Colorado (12 dead, 70 injured), or who shot Gabrielle Giffords in Arizona (6 dead, 13 wounded), or the slaughter in the church in Charleston by Dylann Roof (a self-proclaimed white supremacist, as his actions demonstrated).

Radical Islam is, I agree, scary as hell. But they're not the only scary ones kicking around: since Columbine there have been hosts of acts of terror (I put it that way because you don't have to be a jihadi to terrorize) that have stemmed from "home grown" folks who act out their fantasies, hatred or general lunacy by killing others. Is the shooting of all those elementary school kids in New England by a white nutter any less terrifying than the shootings at what your call a "monster" at "that gay nightclub"?

Come on, Morris. Cultural values are cultural values, and the y work both ways.
Quote:
They [my edit: you are talking about monsters and effin' Talibans and asshole shooters with Jihadi Jane in tow] are similar in thought to the family a friend of mine married into. Came to America from Columbia forty years ago for the work...never learned to speak English, fly the Colombian flag in his front yard in New York state...and really doesn`t think much of Gringos. Burred in like a tick...but not part of the dog.
Nice personal touch with the story. Let me tell you about my buddy who is a successful realtor. And, by the way, an ethnic Chinese. His forebear came to my province (BC) in 1851. That's some 35 years before my grandfather (but guess who got a "Pioneer" pin?). His family was successful, but remained "traditional": they married within the Chinese community because they were scorned by "society" (which meant "whites"). My friend is a fourth or fifth generation Canadian, but still an ethnic Chinese. And a few years ago, when he and his wife (a Swedish blonde whose marriage to my friend all but destroyed the family) decided to adopt a Chinese orphan, he was appointed "spokesman" for all the adoptive parents who were expected to go to China as part of the adoption procedure. My friend spoke not one word of Chinese, and said he really couldn't be of help. And the response was: "But of course you should be the spokesman! You're Chinese"! I do love how easy we make it for visible minorities to fit in with western culture!

Morris. except for the final issue (and I could provide heaps of indications of how poorly even Canadians, with a policy of multiculturalism, make integration), I worry more about uncontrollable rage that finds an outlet than just about radical Islam. Nice white boys killing blacks scares the shit out of me, as do nice normal folks who can't separate cinema from reality. If the only loonies in the world were radical Muslims, we'd probably be living in a different world. I just can't assume Islam is the "bad guy" when so many non-Islamic folks are setting up their weapons... .

Cheers
Brian G
---------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly.

"The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.

brian grafton
Victoria, BC, Canada
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
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Posts: 1309

Re: UK Parliment attacked 3 dead, 20 injured! What next?
Posted on: 3/24/2017 9:35:18 PM
Riain, my province doesn't have a state police force. We have hired the Canadian federal RCMP to provide our provincial policing. And I have to assume that the RCMP has squads allowed to carry long arms and (c'mon, folks, let's admit it, this is the happy buzz word) "anti-terrorist" devices.

Like you, I'm comfortable with the concept of a "special" force designed to deal with particularly nasty challenges. But also like you, I don't know that I trust the RCMP to be able to recognize the difference between a terror event and an robbery, and I don't truly know whether the training received by specialized squads is sufficient unto the day.

Relatively recently, a couple were arrested in BC on terrorist charged. They were alleged to be building "pressure cooker" bombs to use against our Legislative Assembly buildings. At least IMHO, they were fringies without the aptitude or capability to build a bomb. But the point is, they weren't shot because they were thinking of such a thing. They were arrested and charged, and had their day in court. I'd rather see the huge cost of a trial leading nowhere than find the bullet-riddled bodies of two young naifs behind police tape.

Cheers
Brian G
---------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly.

"The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5301

Re: UK Parliment attacked 3 dead, 20 injured! What next?
Posted on: 3/24/2017 9:39:21 PM
Very good response Brian.

I wish to add that it is possible to integrate people from different cultures rather than to ask them to assimilate.

We can respect cultural differences and share the rights and freedoms guaranteed in our constitution and the laws of the country.

George

mine run
Halifax Co., VA, USA
top 40
E-4 Corporal
Posts: 97

Re: UK Parliment attacked 3 dead, 20 injured! What next?
Posted on: 3/24/2017 10:48:08 PM
Brian & George.

As I have said before, I really try to bear in mind the cultural differences which affect how we all develop our opinions on a topic such as this. Your explanation of that makes sense.

I would hasten to point out that our American share of spree shooters and mass murders have cost less than a 100 lives in several scattered incidents over many years. The Colorado theater shooter and the the Arizona Gabby Giffords shooter were both paranoid schizophrenics off their meds. They had no radical religious or political motivation, nor did the school shooter in CT. The only homegrown American terrorist who mass murdered for political reasons was McVey many years ago. He used a bomb and he was executed. Our government classified Ft. Hood as "workplace violence" for years out of political correctness until public outrage finally peaked so loudly that our politicians forced the government of President Obama to admit the truth and reclassify it as a terrorist act and allow the victims, all soldiers, to receive their Purple Hearts.

The radical Islamic terrorists killed 2,996 people in one attack in NYC on 9/11. This does not take into account over 100 killed and wounded at the Boston Marathon and at Ft. Hood by the Radical Islamic Army Major who was found to be a disciple of Anwar Al Alaki. In the investigation that followed, it was found that Hassan had been repeatedly promoted and transferred to other commands despite his overt expressions of sympathy with Radical Islam. His past commanders said they did that because they feared being accused of anti-Islam bias if they reported his attitude and activities. PC strikes again. PC kills.

It is very easy for any Canadian, New Zealander, Costa Rican, you name it, not to see Radical Islamic terror as the REAL threat to our collective countries, law enforcement and citizens at large and to possibly draw an equivalence between Radical Islamists and mentally disturbed Americans and lowlife racists like the Charleston killer. That, if that was a point you made, is an unreasonable conclusion in my opinion and unfair to the victims of these Radical Islamists.

As I have related, previously, my attitude is admittedly shaped a lot by 9/11. I mean it with all my heart when I say that I hope Canada never, ever, experiences a 9/11 or Ft. Hood or Boston Marathon. As the saying here in the USA goes, " a conservative is a liberal who has just been mugged."

No offense intended as I try to make my point.

MR

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
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E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5301

Re: UK Parliment attacked 3 dead, 20 injured! What next?
Posted on: 3/25/2017 7:15:41 AM
Thanks MR. It is not as though Canada has been immune to terrorist plots, most of which have been foiled by good police and intelligence work, some of which was provided by US agencies to ours.

I can think of the Toronto 18, a group of young kids who were Muslim and who decided to train themselves as terrorists in the bush north of Toronto. They had no experience in this sort of thing and made no attempt to hide their presence.

They were bumblers and had been infiltrated by an operative, a citizen of the Muslim faith, who had reported them to the police. They were taken down, had their day in court and a few have done time. Hopefully, with the help of their community leaders, we can rehabilitate them.

It's all a matter of scale I realize with everything paling in comparison to the World Trade Center attacks but you will recall that a radicalized Canadian who had converted, shot and killed a soldier who was guarding the National War Memorial in Ottawa. The man then entered Parliament and was killed by the Sergeant-at-Arms. The perpetrator was a Canadian born man.. His dad was Libyan, while Mom was Canadian. He had had a problem with crime and drugs.

Sometimes there are other factors than ideology at play in the minds of these people when they decide to act.

Dylan Roof in your country was a white supremacist who just decided to kill black people at worship. I submit that the hue and cry that surrounds every terrorist act associated with radical Islamists should be equally as loud as when the act is committed by a white supremacist. Somehow, it seems to me anyway, that after the initial "that's terrible", that the sounds of protest and disgust are more muted.

Whenever a Canadian who is Muslim goes off the rails there are all sorts of cries that this person is not a "real Canadian" and that he is a traitor to Canadian values.

Was Dylan Roof a traitor to American values and to the country too.

More recently, in Quebec City, a mosque was attacked by a radical Canadian who hated Muslims and he took his hatred out on other Canadians at worship, killing six. The shooter was Alexandre Bissonnette, a Christian, who had decided that he would act on his hatred of Muslims.
Among the murder charges, police are trying to determine whether this man may also be charged under the terrorism statutes.

I can tell you that the Canadians who are muslim are watching closely. They know that this man will die in prison based on the murder charges alone, so the terrorism charges are not necessary.

So it is symbolic for them. Terrorism is difficult to prove as terrorism is defined as an act committed "for a political, religious or ideological purpose, objective or cause" that has "the intention of intimidating the public, or a segment of the public with regard to its security."

Now the crown has to assess the evidence collected to determine whether Bissonnette was motivated by ideology and wished to intimidate.

It now seems that this is just a good old run of the mill, hate crime but not terrorism.


Most of the mass murders in my country and yours have been done by Canadians or Americans, native born at that. And Christians.


I understand your fear of what you call Radical Islam but I think that the greater fear is the attraction that Canadian or American young people have for these causes that may result in their departure from home.

And I confess that I do not know what the solution is.

Cheers,

George



brian grafton
Victoria, BC, Canada
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E-9 Sergeant Major
Moderator


Posts: 1309

Re: UK Parliment attacked 3 dead, 20 injured! What next?
Posted on: 3/25/2017 8:43:41 PM
MR, to my shame I have not mention the nearness of 9/11 to your family. The event was almost unbelievable for everybody. To have had a family member linked to the site is almost beyond my comprehension.One of my daughters works, lives, and is a citizen of the US, and she went through the same issues as you on 9/11, except her concern was for colleagues rather than family. She knew people who worked in WT1 or 2. At the same time, I understand that family is family, while death is death.

I hope I have never minimized what 9/11 was, and I still have trouble seeing it as anything more than a catastrophic alteration in the way the world functions. The collapse of those towers still play in my dreams. But I hope I haven't become confused between what 9/11 was and what it represented. I think the two are different. I say that without any insult intended.

Canada has been threatened by some Islamic extremists, and we remain sufficiently open as a society that we might allow dangerous people in. And I hate say so, but I expect Canada to be attacked at some point. That appears to be what Islamic jihadists do: attacking to incite feelings of terror are their modus operandi. At the same time, I visit my Investment Advisor (visible minority Pakistani but 3rd year Canadian, married – by family agreement) to make decisions about my retirement. And I wave to my neighbour wearing a hijab, but wonder if I can smile at another hijabbed woman because I don't know her. These are no "others", but folks I interact with most days of my life.

I'm sorry, MR, but I don't see a distinction between Islamic killing and non-Islamic killing. I don't see the number of dead as an issue. Dead people are dead people. People are killed for all kinds of reasons. I don't see death by radical Islamic as one bit different from death from Dylann Root. I don't see why psychological evaluations should apply only to white killers, or why those who raised and educated those who killed over Batman or skin colour or whatever shouldn't be held responsible in the same way you suggest the parents of Islamic extremists should be.

People who kill other people at a gross rate are no different whether they kill for God, or kill for White cleanliness, or kill for some SciFi fantasy requirement, or simply kill because they can kill. They might have psychological problems; might need treatment; might regret what they have done. They might wave a flag and extol the glory of god knows what. The point is, they are killers. And we have to live with how to deal with that. I guess I want to believe that each will be treated the same way. If we want to focus on a Taliban-linked family and apportion blame, then I think we should apportion the same blame to the family of a person like Dylann Root. If we're going to assume that somebody twisted the mind of an Islamic killer, then we'd better be ready to make the same assumptions about the impact of family and friends on the mind of someone like Dylann Root. He got his values in the same way as any Islamic extremist. The body count isn't the issue. The cultural framework which leads somebody to believe group killing for whatever reason might be the reason. And that cannot be defined by Islamic values.

Sorry, MR, like you I feel I could rant about this forever.

I mean no nastiness towards you. I just feel as strongly from my side as you appear to do from yours.

Cheers
Brian G


---------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly.

"The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.

mine run
Halifax Co., VA, USA
top 40
E-4 Corporal
Posts: 97

Re: UK Parliment attacked 3 dead, 20 injured! What next?
Posted on: 3/25/2017 9:56:07 PM
Brian,

No offense taken here. And I respect what you say because I can tell that you are sincere in your beliefs just as I am in mine. We just disagree with some things on the issue. Now, half time must be about over----back to TV as Oregon vs. Kansas are on tonight.

redcoat
Stockport, UK
top 30
E-5 Sergeant


Posts: 213

Re: UK Parliment attacked 3 dead, 20 injured! What next?
Posted on: 4/7/2017 8:22:10 PM

Quote:


Had that poor police officer been armed, in all likelihood he would be alive today. Of course every oountry gets the government it deserves, so if the citizens of London are willing to accept the risks involved with an inadequately armed police force it is certainly their business.

--mine run
The Policeman killed was the only policeman since 2012 to die in the UK after being attacked by a criminal or terrorist armed with either a knife or gun, in the USA, where all police are armed, the figure is 198 police officers killed by gun or knife in the same period.

SJ
Belfast N Ireland, UK
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 697

Re: UK Parliment attacked 3 dead, 20 injured! What next?
Posted on: 4/8/2017 2:43:43 AM

Quote:

Quote:


Had that poor police officer been armed, in all likelihood he would be alive today. Of course every oountry gets the government it deserves, so if the citizens of London are willing to accept the risks involved with an inadequately armed police force it is certainly their business.

--mine run
The Policeman killed was the only policeman since 2012 to die in the UK after being attacked by a criminal or terrorist armed with either a knife or gun, in the USA, where all police are armed, the figure is 198 police officers killed by gun or knife in the same period.
--redcoat


Redcoat makes a valid point. The UK simply does not have a gun culture, and the tighter laws after Hungerford (1987) and Dunblane (1996)have made military rifles and handguns almost impossible to acquire.

One insider security point I would make. PC Keith Palmer was not a regular London Bobby. He was a member of the elite PaDP. The successor to the old SO17 and the DPG - Back in 1980, it should be remembered that DPG Constable Trevor Lock went through the Iranian Embassy Siege with his issue Smith & Wesson .38 concealed on his person. He was not able to draw and fire when the embassy was taken over. The terrorists assumed that he was an unarmed London Bobby and did not give him a thorough frisk!

Up until 2007 I was a regular visitor to both Houses. I can verify that I have seen PaDP officers carry Glocks under their Hi Vis yellow charm coats both at the PoW and No10.

The PSNI are the only police officers in the UK to overtly carry pistols. Like all UK police forces they are issued with the Hi Vis jacket which covers the belt order. For this reason it is also known as the Charm Jacket as it presents the police officer as "unarmed" It is SOP when under threat of a gun attack from Dissident IRA, they either ditch the Hi Vis, or hitch it up to allow faster access to the holster.

Question: Is it the case that, far from being "unarmed", PC Palmer was carrying a Glock under his Hi Vis jacket, and simply did not have time to draw his weapon under the frenzy of Masood's attack ?



SJ
Belfast N Ireland, UK
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 697

Re: UK Parliment attacked 3 dead, 20 injured! What next?
Posted on: 4/10/2017 1:20:49 PM
Witnessed the funeral of PC Keith Palmer proceed along Millbank this afternoon. What struck me was the international representation of police forces. I saw the distinctive redcoats of the RCMP and a few that looked like US police units.

Security was present but not overpowering. London is a resilient city.

kaii
Edinburgh, UK
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major


Posts: 1884

Re: UK Parliment attacked 3 dead, 20 injured! What next?
Posted on: 4/10/2017 1:49:34 PM
I noticed Virgin Trains offered free rail travel from anywhere in the UK to police officers wanting to take part in the funeral.
---------------
A fool and his money are soon elected.

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5301

Re: UK Parliment attacked 3 dead, 20 injured! What next?
Posted on: 4/10/2017 2:30:37 PM

Quote:
Witnessed the funeral of PC Keith Palmer proceed along Millbank this afternoon. What struck me was the international representation of police forces. I saw the distinctive redcoats of the RCMP and a few that looked like US police units.

Security was present but not overpowering. London is a resilient city.
--SJ


My Dad was a police officer and as much as some people like to complain about them, most care about the communities that they serve and there is a brotherhood among them. When one falls, they all feel it.



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