MHO Home   Forum Home   Help   Register   Login
 
 
Welcome to MilitaryHistoryOnline.com.
You are not signed in.
The current time is: 10/17/2017 10:13:24 PM
 (2000-Pres) Current Day Military talk (No Partisan Politics)    
AuthorMessage
Page 1 of 2 (Page: 1  2 )
SJ
Belfast N Ireland, UK
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 697

Manchester bomb atrocity
Posted on: 5/24/2017 4:36:22 AM
No posts as yet concerning the vile attack on Manchester by Wahhabist Islamic extremists.

Are we now case hardened by these events that have become so common?

Is murder by Islamists now viewed as death by misadventure in a natural storm?

As I watched the news, the political reaction, the people in the street choosing words with care- like the mother from Bradford who almost said that "Pakistani" girls were on the train with her daughter going to the concert, and changed it to "girls from all the community".

Now we have the platitudes, the vigils and the flowers. A sad sad sense of Groundhog day.... again.

Is it not time that the West challenged the Sunni community and their Riyadh financial backers to disown the evil that is Wahhabism? To cease this passive support and "looking the other way" when they see young men radicalised ?

The terror we saw unleashed in Manchester is only beginning. The device used is efficient and a batch has been made. The bomber probably collected it from London.

Britain can react and respond, but really needs to tackle the root of the problem. But would the West would risk diplomatic relations/big business with a middle east regime ?

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 5939
http:// 82.44.47.99
Re: Manchester bomb atrocity
Posted on: 5/24/2017 5:58:23 AM

Quote:
Britain can react and respond, but really needs to tackle the root of the problem. But would the West would risk diplomatic relations/big business with a middle east regime ?


Well put SJ but therein lies the rub.


Quote:
Now we have the platitudes, the vigils and the flowers. A sad sad sense of Groundhog day.... again.


Says it all in my book.

Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5286

Re: Manchester bomb atrocity
Posted on: 5/24/2017 6:53:21 AM
SJ is correct. We have become inured to these events.

My first and very selfish thought is that I hope that it doesn't happen here.

But we all feel for the people of Manchester. They aren't so different from us that we cannot empathize.

But objectively, what can our governments do to eliminate the scourge?

The Saudis should be called out for sure but there are pockets all over the Middle East where extremist forms of Islam have taken hold.

As naive as it sounds, is there a reason for western nations to feel a compulsion to have influence in this area? Other than oil, I mean.

Is it Israel? Is it keeping the Russians at bay?

If the US, UK, France and others simply pull out, what would happen to the world order?


The other issue of course is domestic terrorism and the radicalization of UK, US, French, (name any western country) citizens to make them want to hurt the people of their own country.

Canada has a welcoming immigration policy but I do worry. What happens when people, young men especially, are not experiencing success and see their faith as a touchstone of life to the point that they would die to defend and promote it?


For the people of Manchester, we can only express our sorrow and solidarity.

George

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 5939
http:// 82.44.47.99
Re: Manchester bomb atrocity
Posted on: 5/24/2017 7:53:12 AM
Even hard line Israel- in the middle of the Middle East powder keg-is not immune from terrorist attacks; and does not seem to be in a position to do anything substantial to counter these actions-apart from fighting and winning interstate wars. Centuries ago we had the Crusades when we fought the Saracen in his homeland; but now the enemy is within
Would Mass expulsions solve the problem-I somehow doubt that very much- even it were possible.Will it come to 3rd World War in which one side exterminates the other ???

Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

morris crumley
Lawrenceville, GA, USA
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 1187

Re: Manchester bomb atrocity
Posted on: 5/24/2017 8:47:38 AM
It is estimated that at least 850 ISIS fighters with UK citizenship have returned. Doesn`t mean they have given up the fight, they just live to fight somewhere else.

Last year, a poll commissioned by Trevor Phillips, the former chair of the UK Equality and Human Rights Commission, found that only one third of Muslims living in the UK would alert the authorities if a friend or relative became involved in terrorist acts.

Twenty four percent, one of every four UK Muslims said that they sympathized with violence perpetrated in defense of religion.


I too have expressed concerns that so many young Muslim males are arriving in Europe and there is not enough employment for them. But, poverty is really not that much of an indicator. So many of those involved in the planning an execution of these attacks in the UK and elsewhere...are from nice, middle-class families. Some of the so-called "lone wolves" here in the US had good jobs and were not poor or impoverished.

I`m sorry for what happened in Manchester. I truly am. But get used to it. And yes, the enemy is within.

Respects, Morris
---------------
"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."

Brian Williams
Atlanta, GA, USA
Administrator


Posts: 362
http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com
Re: Manchester bomb atrocity
Posted on: 5/24/2017 9:57:06 AM
I guess it's frustrating because we've talked about this a long time ago. Europe just doesn't get it...well, they're starting to. Europe has opened its door to islamic refugees without any regard to its effect on the future. As we've seen with the Manchester bomber, we're talking about future generations, indefinitely. I can only say good luck and get used to it.

SJ
Belfast N Ireland, UK
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 697

Re: Manchester bomb atrocity
Posted on: 5/24/2017 10:52:37 AM

Quote:


I`m sorry for what happened in Manchester. I truly am. But get used to it. And yes, the enemy is within.

Respects, Morris
--morris crumley


With respect Mr Crumley, I grew up to 50 terrorist incidents a day ranging from car bombs to gun battles,having taken up arms at 17, so I am well used to it.

After 9/11 the Islamic leaders in Belfast were paid two visits. The first was from the UVF, the second was from the IRA. Same message.






George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5286

Re: Manchester bomb atrocity
Posted on: 5/24/2017 11:12:48 AM

Quote:
Last year, a poll commissioned by Trevor Phillips, the former chair of the UK Equality and Human Rights Commission, found that only one third of Muslims living in the UK would alert the authorities if a friend or relative became involved in terrorist acts.

Twenty four percent, one of every four UK Muslims said that they sympathized with violence perpetrated in defense of religion.



UK Muslim leadership suggested that the survey of 1081 Muslims in the UK was skewed.

Why? The survey could only be taken in areas where the population was 20% Muslim.

As a result, 50% of UK Muslims were excluded from the poll.


I sense that the problem is in integration of some Muslims into the population. If the survey was only taken in areas where Muslims weren't doing well then the results would be skewed.

Mr. Versi of the Muslim Council of Britain said that the survey, commissioned by a TV station, only concentrated on Muslim communities in the most disadvantaged areas.


Quote:
Sunghee Lee, a professor at the University of Michigan with a specialty in polling hard-to-reach minority groups, echoed some of Mr. Versi’s concerns about the poll. She said there was a “mismatch” between the group of people who were interviewed and the national population to which ICM Unlimited extrapolated its results.



So we need to be careful about characterizing a whole population as pro- terrorist.

[Read More]


Cheers,

George


Lightning
Glasgow, UK
top 20
E-7 Sgt First Class


Posts: 442

Re: Manchester bomb atrocity
Posted on: 5/24/2017 11:24:31 AM

Quote:
I can only say good luck and get used to it.--Brian Williams


Terrorism is nothing new in Europe, Brian. We're well used to it (as SJ says), especially those of us who live in areas with armed dissident paramilitaries. It's not so long ago that I can remember collections in pubs of Glasgow for the IRA and UVF - I'm sure it still happens, tbh, despite the Good Friday Agreement.

The problem for us now is that I believe previous problems could/can be solved with dialogue, but I'm not sure that the demands of the terrorists (falsely operating under the guise of Islam) have any demands that we can reasonably expect to meet.

The only answer that I can see is the promotion of stability and prosperity in the Middle East/Africa, an end to Western military intervention outside of our direct area of control and heavy investment into community education and covert surveillance so that we can both better educate the young people about the awful choices they are making, whilst doing as much as possible to catch those who absolutely will not be convinced otherwise.

The alternative, suggested on here and elsewhere in the past, of mass expulsion, internment and imprisonment, takes us too close to the regimes we fought so hard in the past to defeat.


Quote:
Are we now case hardened by these events that have become so common?--SJ


SJ, I had thought the same and considered posting myself. When I got down to it, I couldn't think of any words to start me off that didn't lead to emotions of anger and distress. Thanks for doing the necessary, I know it wouldn't have been easy for you.

My thoughts remain with the individuals and families whose lives have been ruined by this disgusting murderous act.

Cheers,

Colin
---------------
"There is no course open to us but to fight it out. Every position must be held to the last man: there must be no retirement. With our backs to the wall and believing in the justice of our cause, each one of us must fight to the end."

kaii
Edinburgh, UK
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major


Posts: 1884

Re: Manchester bomb atrocity
Posted on: 5/24/2017 12:03:25 PM
Although I feel as much as anyone for the victims in Manchester, I basically chose not to post because I expected it would just end up like the 10 last times: we will all restate the arguments we have, nobody will change their point of view, and eventually the thread will die out.

Ultimately, and to be brutally honest, the odd terror attack with civilian casualties is still acceptable to politicians, because doing something with the actual source of the problem rather than just the sympthoms, would be way too expensive both financially and politically.
---------------
A fool and his money are soon elected.

SJ
Belfast N Ireland, UK
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 697

Re: Manchester bomb atrocity
Posted on: 5/24/2017 12:27:23 PM

Quote:
Although I feel as much as anyone for the victims in Manchester, I basically chose not to post because I expected it would just end up like the 10 last times: we will all restate the arguments we have, nobody will change their point of view, and eventually the thread will die out.

Ultimately, and to be brutally honest, the odd terror attack with civilian casualties is still acceptable to politicians, because doing something with the actual source of the problem rather than just the sympthoms, would be way too expensive both financially and politically.
--kaii


I understand Kaii - and yet we cannot become hardened to it. The Brits have a different style of approach to the Yanks. The Friends may well go back to Mama Kitson and "sponsor" pseudo Shia or Farsi groups to step up to the crease and bat. There are some keen to have a go.

I have to say the Friends have infiltrated the Pakistani community, with high levels of success, and its interesting that the new activity comes from a Libyan (Arab)cohort.

Brian Williams
Atlanta, GA, USA
Administrator


Posts: 362
http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com
Re: Manchester bomb atrocity
Posted on: 5/24/2017 3:51:27 PM

Quote:

Britain can react and respond, but really needs to tackle the root of the problem. But would the West would risk diplomatic relations/big business with a middle east regime ?


What ideas were you thinking about?

Riaindevoy
Geelong, Australia
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major


Posts: 1070

Re: Manchester bomb atrocity
Posted on: 5/24/2017 6:22:41 PM

Quote:

Quote:


I`m sorry for what happened in Manchester. I truly am. But get used to it. And yes, the enemy is within.

Respects, Morris
--morris crumley


With respect Mr Crumley, I grew up to 50 terrorist incidents a day ranging from car bombs to gun battles,having taken up arms at 17, so I am well used to it.

After 9/11 the Islamic leaders in Belfast were paid two visits. The first was from the UVF, the second was from the IRA. Same message.






--SJ


How has Belfast fared for trouble from the Muslim community after those visits, which I assume included assurances as to whose country NI was and advice that these enemies would unite to supress Islamic violence harshly?
---------------
Vegetarian: the ancient tribal word for the villiage idiot; who was too stupid to hunt, fish and ride!

Riaindevoy
Geelong, Australia
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major


Posts: 1070

Re: Manchester bomb atrocity
Posted on: 5/24/2017 6:45:48 PM
I am not jaded by the attack itself, but rather by the bullshit response to it. I can't help but think of Mao's assertion that guerrillas are fish who swim in the sea of the peastantry, yet the first thing that gets done after an attack is the sea of the so called Islamic community is looked after.

Ive said it before, we're hostages to our own values because others who don't share them are happy to exploit these values.
---------------
Vegetarian: the ancient tribal word for the villiage idiot; who was too stupid to hunt, fish and ride!

morris crumley
Lawrenceville, GA, USA
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 1187

Re: Manchester bomb atrocity
Posted on: 5/24/2017 10:35:27 PM
Ever since 9/11 here in New York..there has been this knee-jerk response from people..."oh, we musn`t let this bring about anti-Muslim violence." And every year since 9/11 that I have seen, according to the FBI stats...there has been much more anti-Semitic hate crimes than against Muslims.

And, the morning after this...I heard the same crap...the blood of the victims wasn`t even dried...and it turns to "poor, poor, Muslims"...as if the dead and dying were just an inconvenience to the real victims...Muslims. I am getting so damn tired of this crap!

Respects, Morris
---------------
"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."

brian grafton
Victoria, BC, Canada
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Moderator


Posts: 1303

Re: Manchester bomb atrocity
Posted on: 5/24/2017 11:55:02 PM
Don't get your point, Brian. What doesn't Europe get?
Quote:
I guess it's frustrating because we've talked about this a long time ago. Europe just doesn't get it...well, they're starting to. Europe has opened its door to islamic refugees without any regard to its effect on the future. As we've seen with the Manchester bomber, we're talking about future generations, indefinitely. I can only say good luck and get used to it.


Is this like the US letting in the Irish, and ending up stuck with a John Kennedy? Letting in Japanese, and ending up with national internment for no verifiable reason? Letting in Christians and getting Jonestown? Did the US ban Seventh Day Adventists because of the Branch Davidians? Or Baptists because of those weirdos from Westboro?

Just exactly what is Europe supposed to get, that you imply the US has already figured out?

I'm mourning the deaths in Manchester. I'd like to think we can do that without assigning death to a particular faith. Islam didn't set off that bomb. A twisted, unhappy, screwed-up person set off the bomb.Whatever he believed when he pushed the button (pulled the trigger during a prayer meeting, poisoned the Kool-Aid, parked the truck in the Alfred P. Murrah building, or started shooting his colleagues at a military base in Texas), it wasn't a faith or a value system I accept.

What has the US figured out? That it can trade with Islamic nations, or can attempt to play one Islamic sect against another, so long as the trade deals bring US jobs?

Cheers
Brian G
---------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly.

"The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.

Brian Williams
Atlanta, GA, USA
Administrator


Posts: 362
http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com
Re: Manchester bomb atrocity
Posted on: 5/25/2017 1:02:34 AM
Brian. I'm 3/4 Irish. My mom's maiden name is Kennedy. The Irish...my Irish are not trying to kill me. I'm 1/2 Irish and 1/4 Scot-Irish and 1/4 Welsh (thus my last name) ...so I have all bases covered.

SJ
Belfast N Ireland, UK
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 697

Re: Manchester bomb atrocity
Posted on: 5/25/2017 1:19:52 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:


I`m sorry for what happened in Manchester. I truly am. But get used to it. And yes, the enemy is within.

Respects, Morris
--morris crumley








--SJ


How has Belfast fared for trouble from the Muslim community after those visits.

--Riaindevoy


Zero.

Riaindevoy
Geelong, Australia
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major


Posts: 1070

Re: Manchester bomb atrocity
Posted on: 5/25/2017 7:09:27 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:


I`m sorry for what happened in Manchester. I truly am. But get used to it. And yes, the enemy is within.

Respects, Morris
--morris crumley








--SJ


How has Belfast fared for trouble from the Muslim community after those visits.

--Riaindevoy


Zero.

--SJ


I'm shocked! You mean the IRA and UVF, organisations not beholden to the screeching of delusional halfwits on twitter, are able to keep a lid on Islamic extremist violence? Wow!
---------------
Vegetarian: the ancient tribal word for the villiage idiot; who was too stupid to hunt, fish and ride!

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5286

Re: Manchester bomb atrocity
Posted on: 5/25/2017 7:17:36 AM

Quote:
Brian. Sorry...you've lost your mind. You are speaking nonsense. I'm 3/4 Irish. My mom's maiden name is Kennedy. The Irish...my Irish are not trying to kill me. I'm 1/2 Irish and 1/4 Scot-Irish and 1/4 Welsh (thus my last name) ...so I have all bases covered. And I joined the military at 17 years old...officially. In the military we have a saying...lead, follow, or get the hell out of the way. It's like you Canadians are living in an alternate universe. Have you served in the military and seen what atrocities have been committed that the general public have never seen? I have. Have you lived and served in the Middle East? I have. It's so naive. Don't lecture me. I just give up with trying to reason with people that don't have a clue.
--Brian Williams



Brian, that's a bit harsh. Canadians don't live in an alternative universe but many of us think that human beings can learn to live together in harmony.

Multiculturalism is the basis of our society and of course, we are not without problems related to integration of cultures. Hell, we haven't even learned how to live respectfully with our indigenous cultures.

We like to think that we may actually be showing leadership in the area of integration of cultures and management of a multicultural society. We haven't got it right but we also don't assume that societal problems are all related to the importation of the wrong type of immigrant.

That military maxim, "lead, follow or get out of the way" actually sounds a bit ominous. Does it simply mean that this is how the military functions within its own culture? Or does it mean that the military, if disenchanted with the society that it serves, will attempt to lead unilaterally?

I thank you for your service Brian but I wish that you would explain how your experiences over there have informed your political views with respect to integration and immigration.

You may have seen some awful things that most of us have not. Perhaps those experiences have clouded your views.

I am reminded of my father who returned from WW2 with a visceral hatred of all things German. He even hated the sight of a Volkswagen car. He could not accept that Canada allowed Germans to emigrate here.
But I had a German buddy who he quite liked and over time realized that not every German was evil.

I shall be blunt then.

Are you advocating an expulsion of Muslims from the US?

Are you advocating a complete ban on immigration to the the US of people of the Muslim faith?

If the answer is no to both, then what are you advocating right now?

Cheers,

George



Riaindevoy
Geelong, Australia
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major


Posts: 1070

Re: Manchester bomb atrocity
Posted on: 5/25/2017 7:54:11 AM
Just a word on refugees, we've had an issue in the news recently that people accepted as refugees going back to their own country on holiday. The whole point of getting asylum is because you are in danger in your country of origin, if you can go back on holiday then you aren't in danger and thus the refugee status should be revoked and the person not allowed to enter Australia again.

Just another example of our kind nature and system set up for people less likely to exploit it being taken advantage of by people without a stake in the system.
---------------
Vegetarian: the ancient tribal word for the villiage idiot; who was too stupid to hunt, fish and ride!

morris crumley
Lawrenceville, GA, USA
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 1187

Re: Manchester bomb atrocity
Posted on: 5/25/2017 8:00:51 AM
Brian G, Jonestown was not really about being "Christian".....it was a communist cult from San Francisco.

Timothy McVay was an agnostic.

What Europe doesn`t get is that when you surrender your national destiny to some fools in Brussels...you become a state, not a country...and if your neighbor is too stupid to figure things out..their problems become your problems. They have no sensible screening for whom they let in, then you have no defense because there is no border.

We are at war because they are at war with us. If there are around 850 people in Britain who have left to fight with ISIS...then that is 850 people who the authorities need to find...and , not just allow back in, but charge with treason. When you fight with the enemy at war with your country..you are a traitor..and need to be treated as such.

It`s laughable if not so sad...every time we have one of these, even when it`s a suicide bomber who blows himself into tiny bits...almost immediately the police zero in on who it was, they swoop in and make arrests in relatively little time. They know who these bastards are...before they dial the cell phone and explode the bomb.

It is a big mistake to think that you can safely take people who have grown up in a centuries old stew of tribal violence and hate, contained only by the occasional bastard dictator, congregate them into their own smaller version of the country they left..in a place like Manchester..and the dynamic of tribal hate and violence will somehow change.

"Hey, lets open up those borders and give me sum more of dat."

If Europe cares so little for their daughters that they allow sex assaults to be done by migrants...and the lyin` ass media cover it up. If they care so little for their daughters that they import people from countries who don`t give a shit about women`s rights. Then don`t be surprised when your daughters can`t even go to a music concert without fear of being blasted by shrapnel.

My father spent four years of his life in Europe fighting to help save it from Fascism....and now Europe is dead set about surrendering to Islam o-Fascists.

Seem harsh? Well so is having soldier-patriots beheaded in the streets....people enjoying a morning walk mowed down on a bridge...or picking nails and bolts out from the flesh of an 8-year old girl so she can be buried.

By the way, back when Bin Laden was killed..I remember all the concern the US had about making sure that the word got out ...we treated his body with respect for his faith to every degree possible. Then, we spent every day after some event like this saying "This is not Islam. These people are are not Muslim, they have stolen the faith like a thief in the night."

"Well, then why go out of the way to express how we treated his body with as much respect for his faith...if he is not really Muslim?"

"Oh, that`s because we don`t want to offend other Muslims."

"But if Bin Laden isn`t really Muslim...and most Muslims believe he was a thief who stole away from their religion....then why should they give a shit?"


---------------
"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."

Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 2752

Re: Manchester bomb atrocity
Posted on: 5/25/2017 8:06:24 AM

Quote:
Just a word on refugees, we've had an issue in the news recently that people accepted as refugees going back to their own country on holiday. The whole point of getting asylum is because you are in danger in your country of origin, if you can go back on holiday then you aren't in danger and thus the refugee status should be revoked and the person not allowed to enter Australia again.

Just another example of our kind nature and system set up for people less likely to exploit it being taken advantage of by people without a stake in the system.
--Riaindevoy





Good point Riain!
---------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5286

Re: Manchester bomb atrocity
Posted on: 5/25/2017 8:15:34 AM

Quote:
Just a word on refugees, we've had an issue in the news recently that people accepted as refugees going back to their own country on holiday. The whole point of getting asylum is because you are in danger in your country of origin, if you can go back on holiday then you aren't in danger and thus the refugee status should be revoked and the person not allowed to enter Australia again.

Just another example of our kind nature and system set up for people less likely to exploit it being taken advantage of by people without a stake in the system.
--Riaindevoy


We have had the same problem. It has been reported that Tamils in particular have gained refugee status and even permanent residency and then gone home to Sri Lanka for a holiday. A "secret" government report leaked to the press said that the majority of Tamil claimants actually go home for a variety of reasons.

The government has been tracking these people down and removing their protected status if they return home.

To many of us, it is a sign that the refugee claim was false although circumstances in the home country could have changed. If so and it is safe to go home, should refugee status be revoked?

Perhaps but the time-line is a concern. Suppose several years have gone by between the flight of the refugee and the change in the situation at home. Suppose the refugee has been granted permanent residency status and has married and had Canadian kids.

So each case has to be assessed individually.

To refugee advocates, it is a sign that Canada is no longer welcoming to refugees. Immigration lawyers say that some go home to visit a sick relative for example.

But if they came to Canada because their lives were in danger, then I am skeptical of their reasons for being here, if it is safe enough to return home.

Canadians are welcoming but they hate being scammed by immigrants or refugees.


Cheers,

George

SJ
Belfast N Ireland, UK
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 697

Re: Manchester bomb atrocity
Posted on: 5/25/2017 8:54:55 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:


I`m sorry for what happened in Manchester. I truly am. But get used to it. And yes, the enemy is within.

Respects, Morris
--morris crumley








--SJ


How has Belfast fared for trouble from the Muslim community after those visits.

--Riaindevoy


Zero.

--SJ


I'm shocked! You mean the IRA and UVF, organisations not beholden to the screeching of delusional halfwits on twitter, are able to keep a lid on Islamic extremist violence? Wow!
--Riaindevoy


It was always going to be the paramilitaries doing a bit of grandstanding. At the time you must remember that the Muslim population in N Ireland was mostly UK born professionals - doctors, surgeons, academics- less that 2,000 and well dispersed in leafy suburbia.

In recent years we have a new cohort of asylum seekers for Somalia. They are decanted out to all UK cities, and are often the butt of racial attacks in Belfast as they live in working class areas.

The working class areas are generally segregated sectarian ghettoes, so new comers are viewed with suspicion and hatred.

morris crumley
Lawrenceville, GA, USA
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 1187

Re: Manchester bomb atrocity
Posted on: 5/25/2017 9:35:37 AM
Katy Perry says of the Manchester massacre, " No barriers, no walls, we all just need to co-exist"...says this insipid little twat, ensconsed within a $19 million dollar mansion in Beverly Hills....surrounded by an effin` big gate and long walls.

Surounded and protected by armed security when she ventures out into the great unwashed.
---------------
"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5286

Re: Manchester bomb atrocity
Posted on: 5/25/2017 9:58:53 AM
She's just expressing what many of us are thinking. It is a naive and utopian view of the world and a hope for a peaceful future.

No harm done.

BTW Morris, we have had women who post on this forum and "insipid little twat" would offend. It offends me. It would offend my wife and daughters.

And yeah, I am aware of the several definitions of the noun and what use of the word normally intends today in North America. UK, something different perhaps.


Cheers,

George

Lightning
Glasgow, UK
top 20
E-7 Sgt First Class


Posts: 442

Re: Manchester bomb atrocity
Posted on: 5/25/2017 11:23:59 AM

Quote:
...says this insipid little twat...--morris crumley


Forum rules:


Quote:
Be respectful. Be Polite. Don't Insult. No Partisan Politics. No Trolling (baiting) or Flaming (insulting). No Exceptions


I know you're passionate about this, Morris, but come on. We can discuss this reasonably without picking on people for expressing a view.

BTW, I'm still waiting on somebody providing a workable solution/suggestion as to what we in Europe do next?

Cheers,

Colin
---------------
"There is no course open to us but to fight it out. Every position must be held to the last man: there must be no retirement. With our backs to the wall and believing in the justice of our cause, each one of us must fight to the end."

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5286

Re: Manchester bomb atrocity
Posted on: 5/25/2017 1:27:38 PM
Hello Colin,

Which country in the EU, including the UK for now, has the best social and educational programmes for integrating immigrants so that they feel a part of the culture?

Is there a template to follow that has been successful in one country and basically results in immigrants who can find jobs in their new country?

I understand that not all economies in the EU are equally successful.

While I'm at it, and pardon my ignorance but are individual countries in the EU permitted to create there own selection process for immigrants. (not refugees)

For clarity, let me explain that Canada employs a points system for immigrants. It is based partly on current economic needs, language facility, age and a number of other factors.

So could the UK have a different set of selection factors than would Germany or France?


Cheers,

George



kaii
Edinburgh, UK
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major


Posts: 1884

Re: Manchester bomb atrocity
Posted on: 5/25/2017 3:48:17 PM
George,
open borders and free movement only applies between EU states, so each EU country decides their own rules for immigration from outside the EU/EEA area. The UK does have different rules than, for instance, Germany or France. One practical example of this is my own situation: since I am an EEA citizen exercising my rights to work in the UK, my Ukrainian wife also automatically has the right to live and work with me in the UK, as per EU rules. My colleague, who is British and also married to a Ukrainian, had to go through British immigration procedures and prove his income etc before she would be allowed to enter the UK. There have been some initiatives to harmonise the rules in the EU, but so far this is an area where countries prefer to be able to keep their own national rules. Had he moved to, say Ireland for six months and worked and paid taxes there, he would have counted as an EU/EEA citizen coming back to the UK.

So there are obviously cases that cause discussions and conflict. For instance, Poland accepted some 150,000 Ukrainian workers into their country and gave them work permit for Poland only (because Poland was lacking manual labour since a large share of their own population had gone to other countries). This was well within Polis rights to do so. Given that these are not EU citizens, they do not automatically have the right to work anywhere else in Europe, but given the open internal borders in the Schengen area, a lot of them travelled to work illegally in Germany and UK where wages were higher. Hungary gave passports to large amounts of Ukrainian citizens with Hungarian roots, thereby creating new EU citizens with full rights of movement etc - and obviously a lot of these immediately travelled to other countries to seek work.

If you are from a Commonwealth country, it is generally easier to get work permit in the UK than elsewhere in Europe as per current rules.

Contrary to what some Americans seem to think, there are no open borders for immigration in Europe and if you come from outside the EU it is very very difficult in general to get work permit or residence permit. Refugees, of course, are dealt with according to international treaties and have different rules. Again, most of those that arrive as refugees are returned home as they do not have a valid claim for asylum.

---------------
A fool and his money are soon elected.

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5286

Re: Manchester bomb atrocity
Posted on: 5/25/2017 4:34:37 PM
Thanks Kai. I wondered whether EU countries insisted upon some sort of control over immigration.

I didn't quite understand why your British colleague had to prove to immigration that his wife would not be a burden to society.

I don't disagree. We do it too.

But you didn't have to go through the same procedures.

Is it because you were already married and the Brit was having a foreign national join him?

Cheers,

George

kaii
Edinburgh, UK
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major


Posts: 1884

Re: Manchester bomb atrocity
Posted on: 5/25/2017 5:39:58 PM

Quote:
I didn't quite understand why your British colleague had to prove to immigration that his wife would not be a burden to society.

Cheers,

George

--George


Because he is British, living in Britain, so British immigration rules apply for him. British immigration rules for bringing a spouse from outside the EU are strict and demand that he proves income etc.

Since I am not a British citizen, but rather from an EEA country, when I am moving to Britain, I am exercising my rights under EU law rather than British law. EU law (freedom of movement) states that as long as I (the EEA citizen) am exercising my rights under the freedom of movement rules (have job, pay taxes, don't do crime etc), my immediate family also have the right to travel with me and live with me (assuming they do not have a criminal record or are a danger to security and safety). So for Brits that seems unfair of course. However, it is exactly the same if a British person moves to another EU country, they can then bring their family from outside the EU automatically.

It also means that my wife can travel freely in Europe without visa with her EEA registration card from the UK, whereas my colleague's wife must apply for visa to the Schengen area (at least until 11th June when Ukrainians get visa free access).

If we had moved to Norway directly from Ukraine after we got married, I would have had to comply with Norwegian immigration rules rather than EU rules, which would have meant a lot more paperwork.

Now, that is fairly simple at the outset, but there is an obvious loophole here of course.

What happens if I now decide to move back to Norway with my wife, having lived and worked in the UK legally for a few years?

This is what is called the "Surrinder Singh" route, named after the person that took on British government and won - the ECJ ruled that if you have exercised your rights as an EU citizen in another EU country and the "gravity of your life" has been in that country, you have EU rights when returning to your own country. So in other words, my wife's immigration status is tied to me and my legal status, rather than her citizenship from outside the EU. That means that my colleague could have moved to Ireland for say a year, lived with his wife there as EU citizen, and then brought her to the UK without having to comply with British immigration rules.

It is not a massive problem as such, since few people are mobile enough to move to another country just to meet these criteria, but for some people it can be a short cut to get around national immigration rules and I know that security agencies are monitoring this loophole.
---------------
A fool and his money are soon elected.

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5286

Re: Manchester bomb atrocity
Posted on: 5/25/2017 7:37:05 PM
Thanks Kai. Great explanation.

George

SJ
Belfast N Ireland, UK
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 697

Re: Manchester bomb atrocity
Posted on: 5/26/2017 4:44:28 AM

Quote:

Quote:
...says this insipid little twat...--morris crumley


Forum rules:


Quote:
Be respectful. Be Polite. Don't Insult. No Partisan Politics. No Trolling (baiting) or Flaming (insulting). No Exceptions


I know you're passionate about this, Morris, but come on. We can discuss this reasonably without picking on people for expressing a view.

BTW, I'm still waiting on somebody providing a workable solution/suggestion as to what we in Europe do next?

Cheers,

Colin

--Lightning


Well said Colin. I second your comments and adherence to Forum rules. Let's keep respect and civility a treasured value.

morris crumley
Lawrenceville, GA, USA
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 1187

Re: Manchester bomb atrocity
Posted on: 5/26/2017 11:20:40 AM
Yes Colin. You are correct, I should have shown more respect and dignity. The way that Lady Thatcher was treated on this very forum the day she passed away.

My bad.
---------------
"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5286

Re: Manchester bomb atrocity
Posted on: 5/26/2017 12:13:09 PM
So no apology then.

scoucer
Berlin, Germany
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 1923

Re: Manchester bomb atrocity
Posted on: 5/26/2017 12:41:02 PM

Quote:
Yes Colin. You are correct, I should have shown more respect and dignity. The way that Lady Thatcher was treated on this very forum the day she passed away.

My bad.
--morris crumley


Lady Thatcher was not badly treated on this forum. It was "reported" by others, including me, that that she was in certain cities hated and there were those who were dancing in the streets - literally. It was not condoned by any on this forum. And it was not condoned by me. I made the atempt to explain "where" this hate was coming from. Don´t start twisting words Morris. You are far too intelligent for that.

Trevor

---------------
`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie

Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.

scoucer
Berlin, Germany
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 1923

Re: Manchester bomb atrocity
Posted on: 5/26/2017 3:15:57 PM

Quote:

Quote:
I can only say good luck and get used to it.--Brian Williams


Terrorism is nothing new in Europe, Brian. We're well used to it (as SJ says), especially those of us who live in areas with armed dissident paramilitaries. It's not so long ago that I can remember collections in pubs of Glasgow for the IRA and UVF - I'm sure it still happens, tbh, despite the Good Friday Agreement.

The problem for us now is that I believe previous problems could/can be solved with dialogue, but I'm not sure that the demands of the terrorists (falsely operating under the guise of Islam) have any demands that we can reasonably expect to meet.

The only answer that I can see is the promotion of stability and prosperity in the Middle East/Africa, an end to Western military intervention outside of our direct area of control and heavy investment into community education and covert surveillance so that we can both better educate the young people about the awful choices they are making, whilst doing as much as possible to catch those who absolutely will not be convinced otherwise.

The alternative, suggested on here and elsewhere in the past, of mass expulsion, internment and imprisonment, takes us too close to the regimes we fought so hard in the past to defeat.


Quote:
Are we now case hardened by these events that have become so common?--SJ


SJ, I had thought the same and considered posting myself. When I got down to it, I couldn't think of any words to start me off that didn't lead to emotions of anger and distress. Thanks for doing the necessary, I know it wouldn't have been easy for you.

My thoughts remain with the individuals and families whose lives have been ruined by this disgusting murderous act.

Cheers,

Colin

--Lightning


Completely agree Colin. As I´ve said before, it was an IRA bomb that nearly killed me and Liverpool was just like Glasgow.
The impression being given is that terrorism in Europe is somehow on the increase. In fact, terrorism in Europe today is a third of what it was in the 70´s. There was a european-wide "campaign against terrorism" running during my time in the British Military Gouvernment in West Berlin. And in Berlin there were all kinds of political things going on. Unfortunately, not allowed to say anything about my counter-insurgency experiences in the shadowy world of Spy City. I have a sinking feeling that a reborn RAF and NSU are in the making.

Trevor
---------------
`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie

Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.

 (2000-Pres) Current Day Military talk (No Partisan Politics)    
Page 1 of 2 (Page: 1  2 )
 Forum Ads from Google