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 (2000-Pres) Current Day Military talk (No Partisan Politics)    
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Riaindevoy
Geelong, Australia
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major


Posts: 1115

Re: Manchester bomb atrocity
Posted on: 5/26/2017 8:35:27 PM
Back in the 70s there was no delusion about the terrorists, they were generally considered rightly or wrongly as proxies of the Soviets in the larger context of the Cold War. There certainly wasn't the reaction that we had to ensure their supporters, sympathisers and empathisers were looked after and no harm come to them, indeed they had to cross the Iron Curtain to get sanctuary.

Just to put this into perspective. It was recently said by a Government Minister that PM Fraser was told in 1976 that to accept large numbers of illiterate, rural Muslim refugees from Lebanon was to invite trouble, but PM Fraser overruled this advice and the programme was mismanaged as well. The Minister then said that 22 of the 33 people charged or jailed on terror offensives are descendants of this group of refugees, which raised protests from leftists that you can't condemn an entire community because of 22 people. It then came out that in this same community some 50% collect unemployment benefits, 1 in 6 is on a Disability Support Pension (far, far outside the normal ranges) and Police both Melbourne and Sydney had Middle East Crime Task Forces to combat the extreme level of criminality in these communities. So while its not right to condemn a community because of 22 people this community does exhibit a pattern of behaviour that fosters criminality and thus terrorism.
---------------
Vegetarian: the ancient tribal word for the villiage idiot; who was too stupid to hunt, fish and ride!

BWilson

top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 3528

Re: Manchester bomb atrocity
Posted on: 5/27/2017 2:17:57 AM

Quote:
Terrorism is nothing new in Europe, Brian. We're well used to it (as SJ says), especially those of us who live in areas with armed dissident paramilitaries. It's not so long ago that I can remember collections in pubs of Glasgow for the IRA and UVF - I'm sure it still happens, tbh, despite the Good Friday Agreement.

Cheers,

Colin

--Lightning


Hi Colin,

 It is nothing new, but the tenor of the 1970s-80s terrorism on the continent was quite different. Those people targeted politicians and military leaders, as well as military facilities. Even then, no one really expected them to hit soft targets like military hospitals -- the 97th General Hospital in Frankfurt was mostly uncontrolled-access during the heyday of the RAF and the Baader-Meinhof Gang.

 What is happening today -is- different, again, at least on the continent. The Islamic terrorists are targeting masses of civilians. And their level of success is greater than commonly acknowledged: when 10% of the French Army has to remain on constant deployment within THEIR OWN COUNTRY simply to ensure a minimal level of security -- that is a steady drain on national (and NATO) military resources that can't be used elsewhere. Same thing in Italy; cops and soldiers all over the place.

 European populations may simply accept this situation as the new normal, or they may, at some unpredictable point, react very angrily and put people into power who will make the Trumps and LePens of this world look reasonable by comparison.

Cheers

BW
---------------
With occasional, fatigued glances at life's rear-view mirror from the other side of time.

scoucer
Berlin, Germany
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 1957

Re: Manchester bomb atrocity
Posted on: 5/27/2017 2:19:08 PM

Quote:

Quote:
Terrorism is nothing new in Europe, Brian. We're well used to it (as SJ says), especially those of us who live in areas with armed dissident paramilitaries. It's not so long ago that I can remember collections in pubs of Glasgow for the IRA and UVF - I'm sure it still happens, tbh, despite the Good Friday Agreement.

Cheers,

Colin

--Lightning


Hi Colin,

 It is nothing new, but the tenor of the 1970s-80s terrorism on the continent was quite different. Those people targeted politicians and military leaders, as well as military facilities. Even then, no one really expected them to hit soft targets like military hospitals -- the 97th General Hospital in Frankfurt was mostly uncontrolled-access during the heyday of the RAF and the Baader-Meinhof Gang.

 What is happening today -is- different, again, at least on the continent. The Islamic terrorists are targeting masses of civilians. And their level of success is greater than commonly acknowledged: when 10% of the French Army has to remain on constant deployment within THEIR OWN COUNTRY simply to ensure a minimal level of security -- that is a steady drain on national (and NATO) military resources that can't be used elsewhere. Same thing in Italy; cops and soldiers all over the place.

 European populations may simply accept this situation as the new normal, or they may, at some unpredictable point, react very angrily and put people into power who will make the Trumps and LePens of this world look reasonable by comparison.

Cheers

BW
--BWilson


Bill and Brian,

You are right when talking about the RAF or the Red Brigades but Right-wing/neo-nazi terror attacks were exactly the same as the Islamist headcases today.

Could it be that because NATO forces were declared a target for Left-wing extremist groups, and you were trained for it, that you have forgotten the other ?

Oktoberfest bombing , Bologna Massacre, Piazza Fontana (Milan),Piazza della Loggia (Brescia), Italicus Express bombing.

Trevor
---------------
`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie

Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.

BWilson

top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 3528

Re: Manchester bomb atrocity
Posted on: 5/28/2017 2:08:59 AM
Trevor,

 There was of course variation in the pattern of attacks. But as I recall the events, the left wing groups were more active and successful -- bombing Rhein Main Air Base, killing Hans Martin Schleyer, the murder of Aldo Moro, etc. -- targeted attacks, not all of which were NATO targets.

 If we want a thorough survey, the murder of the Israeli athletes by Palestinian terrorists in 1972 is also quite notable.

Cheers

BW
---------------
With occasional, fatigued glances at life's rear-view mirror from the other side of time.

scoucer
Berlin, Germany
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 1957

Re: Manchester bomb atrocity
Posted on: 5/28/2017 1:48:50 PM
What I meant Bill was that the left-wing groups had a war against "the State" and therefore attacked symbols of that state whereas the Right-wing , as in such cases :

Oktoberfest bombing , Bologna Massacre, Piazza Fontana (Milan),Piazza della Loggia (Brescia), Italicus Express bombing.

targeted masses of civilians in a "strategy of tension and destabilisation" just like the Islamists today (and indeed the Provos in the UK). It is not something new.

Trevor
---------------
`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie

Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.

BWilson

top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 3528

Re: Manchester bomb atrocity
Posted on: 5/28/2017 2:52:37 PM
 Certainly nothing new. All terrorism, back to ancient times, shares common elements; one of them being is that these acts are what we today term asymmetric warfare. Even the acts of self-radicalized attackers are useful to those who exercise command in asymmetric warfare, because it all serves their goals.

Cheers

BW
---------------
With occasional, fatigued glances at life's rear-view mirror from the other side of time.

BWilson

top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 3528

Re: Manchester bomb atrocity
Posted on: 5/29/2017 1:44:06 AM
Trevor,

 Most of the attacks you mentioned took place in Italy. I find that interesting, given the the simultaneous activities of the left-wing groups. Makes me think the late Second World War conflict between the partigiani and the Salo Republic boys continued postwar in slightly altered guise.

Cheers

BW
---------------
With occasional, fatigued glances at life's rear-view mirror from the other side of time.

 (2000-Pres) Current Day Military talk (No Partisan Politics)    
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