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 (2000-Pres) Current Day Military talk (No Partisan Politics)    
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Riaindevoy
Geelong, Australia
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major


Posts: 1076

Another London attack
Posted on: 6/3/2017 8:26:32 PM
Here we go again; more deaths and another round of pointless guilt-tripping, self-loathing blame-games and worthless responses driven by PC above all else, all of which is laying the groundwork of another attack in the near future.

Yay!
---------------
Vegetarian: the ancient tribal word for the villiage idiot; who was too stupid to hunt, fish and ride!

BWilson

top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 3330

Re: Another London attack
Posted on: 6/4/2017 3:36:12 AM
 Interesting that there have two attacks so close together before the election in the U.K.

Cheers

BW
---------------
With occasional, fatigued glances at life's rear-view mirror from the other side of time.

Society's righteous paranoia lows profoundly. -- random wisdom of a computer

Phil andrade
London, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Moderator
Posts: 2482

Re: Another London attack
Posted on: 6/4/2017 4:39:14 AM
Seven deaths reported now, in addition to the three assailants.

Interested in your allusions, Riain....have been awaiting the syndromes you mention ; what has been said so far in respect of guilt trip and self loathing ?

I do agree with you, make no mistake, but in connection to this incident I haven't yet picked up on the PC brigade platitudes .

Regards, Phil
---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

Lightning
Glasgow, UK
top 20
E-7 Sgt First Class


Posts: 444

Re: Another London attack
Posted on: 6/4/2017 4:50:20 AM
None of this would have likely happened if the US and UK (and others) hadn't destabilised the entire region by the ridiculous war in Iraq. As evil and brutal as he was, Saddam would have snuffed out ISIS within a week and they wouldn't have been able to grow into a lighthouse for Islamic extremists across the world.

Colin
---------------
"There is no course open to us but to fight it out. Every position must be held to the last man: there must be no retirement. With our backs to the wall and believing in the justice of our cause, each one of us must fight to the end."

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 5968
http:// 82.44.47.99
Re: Another London attack
Posted on: 6/4/2017 5:20:26 AM
Colin-I think that you have made a very cogent point


Quote:
Perhaps even more directly relevant to Sunni grievances and the rise of Isis, was the US-run prison system, which started with rampant abuses at Abu Ghraib and evolved into mass detention, albeit of both major sects. Sunni jihadis said the prison system was their most effective organising tool.

A senior Isis commander has told the Guardian that without the Camp Bucca facility in southern Iraq, in which he and most of the senior leadership were at one point detained, there would be no Isis today
The Guardian

Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

kaii
Edinburgh, UK
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major


Posts: 1884

Re: Another London attack
Posted on: 6/4/2017 7:52:27 AM
My guess this is a rushed and improvised attack as the police were getting close in their enquiries after Manchester attack.
---------------
A fool and his money are soon elected.

morris crumley
Lawrenceville, GA, USA
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 1196

Re: Another London attack
Posted on: 6/4/2017 8:48:09 AM
Oh, I think we can all blame the true causes on the British and the French for effin` up the region nearly a hundred years ago in the first place.

And it`s so wise to suggest that none of this would have happened except for the Iraq war. Really?

So, ISIS commanders are now trusted sources of information?

Yah, know, it``s damn peculiar to me that every single thing that we do to combat these bastards "is a recruiting tool" for them...and there are people on our side who accept this bullshit.

These bastards actually trained in how to bloody their noses so as to accuse the military of harming them while in captivity...because they knew they could cause all kinds of mischief that way.

But, GITMO..."thats a recruiting tool." Enhanced interrogation..."that`s a recruiting tool." And internet video..."that`s a recruiting tool."

We are going to be fighting these pricks for generations...and it`s easy to see why.

Hell, Theresa May ordered an investigation into whether women were being hammered by "Sharia Councils" in Great Britian, but went out of her way to suggest that "we can learn a lot form Sharia." As of last year I believe the top baby boy name in London was Muhammad ....damnable recruiting tools if you ask me. Obvious reasons for blowing up little girls at a concert. Or running down pedestrians and stabbing diners.
When you give acceptance to "Sharia mediation, or Sharia Councils in your country..you think you are being a "multicultural nice guy." They perceive that as weakness...and acceptance of Sharia. Doen`t matter what you think..it`s what they perceive. When many Muslims receive welfare and social benefits in Western nations...it is viewed by many as the tax that non-believers must pay to Islam. Again, doesn`t matter what you may see it as..it is what they perceive. What you perceive as gracious hospitality...many of them perceive as the weakness and the suplication of the infidel.
---------------
"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."

Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 2775

Re: Another London attack
Posted on: 6/4/2017 8:54:34 AM
If this attack wasn't bad enough over 1,500 soccer fans got hurt in a perceived terrorist attack at a big game near Milan Italy, possibly a noise like fire crackers started it! No one was seriously hurt! Cuts and scrapes, mostly.

[Read More]

crazy fans!
MD




---------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5315

Re: Another London attack
Posted on: 6/4/2017 3:18:50 PM
People who are sympathetic to the cause of a terrorist group like ISIS will be influenced by an event that appears to indicate that outsiders are attacking Muslims.

It is misguided for these people, often citizens of the country that they attack but only a fool would not analyze the factors contributing to disaffection.

So yeah, the Iraq wars, and events in other middle east countries where western armies are involved can be interpreted as an invasion of a Muslim country. It matters not whether some of the Muslims within that country are happy for the help, not if the person has adopted and embraced a perverted ideology.

GITMO, extraordinary rendition, and enhanced interrogation will have an influence.

These people didn't just decide to go rogue on a whim. They are influenced by the events that they see and the way that the terrorists have interpreted those events for them.


Re: Sharia Law

There are no Sharia courts in Canada or the US, so far as I know.

Muslim religious leaders will always affirm that they must obey the rules of the country in which they reside.

But like the Jews and Christian, Muslims do have sets of religious laws with respect to marriage and annulment, financial crime and other aspects of family life.

So shall we stop an Imam from dispensing religious advice to his flock, from engaging in marriage counselling?

If so, then we must ban the practice of Canon Law in the RC faith. That church offers advice on marriage, rules on annulments.

How about Orthodox Jews and the religious laws governing divorce and child custody cases and even fraud?

So where any of these faiths, through enacting their religious laws, violate the secular laws of the state, then go after them for that.

How about the Mormons and their religious elders who rule when adultery takes place?

Anglican canon law can influence personal decisions of the faithful too.

But it is ridiculous to assume that every mosque and Imam is part of a fifth column plotting to undermine the country.

Riaindevoy
Geelong, Australia
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major


Posts: 1076

Re: Another London attack
Posted on: 6/4/2017 3:41:54 PM
I blame Romanos IV Diogenes, he shouldn't have taken that Army to Manzikert.

That lead to the Crusades, which was the worlds greatest evil.
---------------
Vegetarian: the ancient tribal word for the villiage idiot; who was too stupid to hunt, fish and ride!

Brian Williams
Atlanta, GA, USA
Administrator


Posts: 362
http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com
Re: Another London attack
Posted on: 6/4/2017 7:05:19 PM

Quote:
None of this would have likely happened if the US and UK (and others) hadn't destabilised the entire region by the ridiculous war in Iraq. As evil and brutal as he was, Saddam would have snuffed out ISIS within a week and they wouldn't have been able to grow into a lighthouse for Islamic extremists across the world.

Colin
--Lightning


That's pretty much true. It is one the US's greatest blunders. It created a chaotic mess that has spread leaps and bounds.

Brian Williams
Atlanta, GA, USA
Administrator


Posts: 362
http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com
Re: Another London attack
Posted on: 6/4/2017 7:11:58 PM

Quote:

But it is ridiculous to assume that every mosque and Imam is part of a fifth column plotting to undermine the country.
--George

Not every one, but 23,000 sounds like a lot to me. Here you go George: [Read More]

Riaindevoy
Geelong, Australia
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major


Posts: 1076

Re: Another London attack
Posted on: 6/4/2017 7:51:21 PM
Surely not all mosques need to be at fault for the government to act, the same idea doesn't apply to any other law or policy. The road toll is at all sorts of historical lows but the government still introduces a raft of legislation and regulations to ruthlessly pursue a smaller and smaller number of offenders. If the same principle was applied to islamist terrorists there wouldn't be an open mosque in Australia.
---------------
Vegetarian: the ancient tribal word for the villiage idiot; who was too stupid to hunt, fish and ride!

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5315

Re: Another London attack
Posted on: 6/4/2017 8:10:18 PM

Quote:

Quote:

But it is ridiculous to assume that every mosque and Imam is part of a fifth column plotting to undermine the country.
--George

Not every one, but 23,000 sounds like a lot to me. Here you go George: [Read More]
--Brian Williams


Brian I couldn't make the link work. They want a subscription.

But surprise, surprise, Breitbart was quick to quote the London Times.

There are over 3 million people who profess to be Muslims in the UK.

The figure of 23, 000 also includes many of those who are a "residual risk". That means that the measures and controls are largely working as opposed to "inherent risk", when the controls are failing.

I am not saying that they don't have a problem in the UK but is there any evidence that the homegrown terrorists are learning the ISIS ideology in the mosques?

And yes, I do know that there are Imam's under surveillance. I think that we have a couple in Canada too.

Brian, how are Muslims doing in your country? Are they integrating well? Are they working and going to school?

Do they feel welcome and do they feel like Americans?

I expect that the answer is for the most part, yes and if all of those conditions are met, the risk is mitigated.


Cheers,


George




Brian Williams
Atlanta, GA, USA
Administrator


Posts: 362
http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com
Re: Another London attack
Posted on: 6/5/2017 1:16:01 AM
George,

Well, yes...until it's not. The fact that we have to mitigate risk in our society is scary in itself. We need to protect ourselves and not bury our heads in the sand.

dt509er
Santa Rosa, CA, USA
top 20
E-7 Sgt First Class


Posts: 459

Re: Another London attack
Posted on: 6/5/2017 1:42:47 AM

Quote:
But it is ridiculous to assume that every mosque and Imam is part of a fifth column plotting to undermine the country.
--George



Is it really?

---------------
"American parachutists-devils in baggy pants..."

I take offense to your perception of being offended!

“If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better experiment.” Lord Ernest Rutherford

BWilson

top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 3330

Re: Another London attack
Posted on: 6/5/2017 2:32:17 AM

Quote:
I blame Romanos IV Diogenes, he shouldn't have taken that Army to Manzikert.

That lead to the Crusades, which was the worlds greatest evil.
--Riaindevoy


 Thanks, Riain

 Place has been stirring for a while.

Cheers

BW
---------------
With occasional, fatigued glances at life's rear-view mirror from the other side of time.

Society's righteous paranoia lows profoundly. -- random wisdom of a computer

SJ
Belfast N Ireland, UK
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 697

Re: Another London attack
Posted on: 6/5/2017 4:19:01 AM
There are about 100 Mosques in UK that are funded by Saudis and Qataris - they preach Wahhabism - the ultra conservative doctrine open to interpretations ofjihad. That the killing of infidels is no sin.

1. Large sections of the Muslim community are in denial about the radicalism that this style preaching spawns. That needs to be challenged.

2. The British Tory government are loth to chastise these two Arab states, because of the ££££££ in arms sales.

3. We need a check on Youtube that is still streaming terrorist videos.

Riaindevoy
Geelong, Australia
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major


Posts: 1076

Re: Another London attack
Posted on: 6/5/2017 4:47:57 AM
I read a stat today that some 4% of British Muslims openly support suicide bombers, which equates to some 100,000 people.

I read a stat the other day that some 55% of Pakistanis in Britain are married to their first cousin, indeed about half of the worlds Muslim population is seriously inbred. Maybe there's something to that.
---------------
Vegetarian: the ancient tribal word for the villiage idiot; who was too stupid to hunt, fish and ride!

morris crumley
Lawrenceville, GA, USA
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 1196

Re: Another London attack
Posted on: 6/5/2017 9:20:08 AM
I just wanted to say something about what happened in Manchester yesterday. I know that security was singularly heavy..and that the chances of a terrorist act was tampered by that heavy security...but the courage shown by the people of Manchester who attended a concert in defiance of madness was inspiring.

To the people of Manchester....well done.

Respects, Morris
---------------
"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."

morris crumley
Lawrenceville, GA, USA
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 1196

Re: Another London attack
Posted on: 6/5/2017 9:51:01 AM

Quote:
I read a stat today that some 4% of British Muslims openly support suicide bombers, which equates to some 100,000 people.

I read a stat the other day that some 55% of Pakistanis in Britain are married to their first cousin, indeed about half of the worlds Muslim population is seriously inbred. Maybe there's something to that.
--Riaindevoy



I posted on the Manchester thread two weeks ago that a poll found that only one third of UK Muslims would report a friend or relative that they knew to be involved in terrorist activity. Just one third!

And that one out of every four UK Muslims said that they sympathized with violence committed in the name of their religion!

Now, I`ve been posting here since 2006, and for much of that time I have railed against the multi-cultural ism and the PC insanity that was occurring, not just in Europe..but in my country as well. That a people constipated on PC nonsense were going to get people killed. I don`t live in Europe, so it ain`t my front yard...but you guys have a front yard full of sand...and you better get your heads out of it.

When you have wide open borders for the sake of PC...and you don`t demand assimilation...when you don`t really know the people flooding in...and you cater to their whims, rather than demand they conform more to to your country and it`s values...then you have..not a melting pot..but a stew of tribalism and of sectarian ferment. You are importing it...and diminishing your country not enhancing it. The first migrant who complained about a lack of good WI-fi...or the quality of food at a refugee center should have his or her ass kicked back to wherever they came from.

Respects, Morris
---------------
"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5315

Re: Another London attack
Posted on: 6/5/2017 10:25:52 AM
One of the attackers on the London Bridge was demonstrating changes in attitude among his friends. They knew that he was becoming more radical.

And they reported him to the authorities.

The comment that one of them made was, "I did my job, the authorities didn't do theirs". The comment was made by a Muslim and a Brit.


Morris, the stuff that you reported a couple of weeks ago is from a study that was panned. The survey was only taken in the area in which the Muslim population was over 50%. That means that most British Muslims were not surveyed.

That doesn't mean that there aren't problems of integration of minorities into British culture.

The "melting pot" philosophy is distinctly American and probably part of the myths that all countries create in house.

Canada sees itself as a cultural mosaic where all cultures are respected but all united by the principles described in the Constitution and the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

Multiculturalism is clearly an observable fact of life. We can see the different people who live here.

But I think it wrong to assume that the different cultures are not willing to live their lives under the agreed upon laws supported by the Constitution.

I also think it is wrong to demand assimilation of one's culture.

How does one, "act American" enough so that it satisfies people who don't trust others who have a different first language other than English?

You know, what does an American look like? How does he speak? What does he eat?

Far more important is to integrate, not assimilate, newcomers. And it isn't easy. But if immigrants can learn the language, educate themselves and their children, by and large, they will strengthen the national fibre.


George

morris crumley
Lawrenceville, GA, USA
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 1196

Re: Another London attack
Posted on: 6/5/2017 11:54:21 AM
George, never is a poll done of the entire sampling of anything. This poll chose to survey opinions in areas of large majority Muslim populations...and found that there is a big effin` problem!

Most British Muslims would not have been surveyed even if they had done it in random neighborhoods.

Yes, some in his sphere did alert the authorities....but the authorities are absolutely inundated by growing numbers of people suspected of terrorist sympathies that they must watch and try to track.

Some indications are that as many as 850 to one thousand may have joined to fight with ISIS. Over four hundred have returned...to do what?

The EU has swamped itself with new people who may need to be watched...and want even more!

At some point even Forrest Gump begins to look like a genius.

Respects, Morris
---------------
"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5315

Re: Another London attack
Posted on: 6/5/2017 1:34:07 PM
Morris, polling must take a representative sample in order to be considered valid and reliable under the parameters of an analysis.

So if the purpose was to survey the opinions of poorer and disaffected English citizens and residents in marginalized areas, then they have done that.

But that survey was not representative of the Muslim population of the UK, only a selected portion of it.

It is useful in that it indicates social problems in those communities that lead to disaffection.

So if they are already there and if they are there legally, what would you suggest? Send them back? To where?

So far as I know, English law does not regulate opinions but actions.


I would prefer that one of our English friends confirm your statement that, "The EU has swamped itself with new people who may need to be watched...and want even more!".

We must remember that there is a great deal of difference between an immigrant that has gone through the vetting process and a refugee.

What do you mean by "want even more" BTW? More immigrants wanted? Or the immigrants are more demanding? I'm just looking for clarification on the point that you were making.


Canada was the first country I believe, to introduce a points based immigration system, in 1967. The Australians implemented a similar system in 1979.

And I think that the UK has gone to a points based system.

Each country can use different criteria to assess the "usefulness", for want of a better word, of a prospective immigrant to the country.

Our system discriminates largely on the basis of economics, that is, do we need the immigrant who is applying? There are other factors like age, language facility and different categories including family reunification if a Canadian resident wants to sponsor a family member from the old country.
But largely, we can look for immigrants who will be helpful to the economy.

I believe that the US is one of the few western countries without a points based system. You have far less stringent requirements for entry.

There are no guarantees but in theory, the new immigrant already has a better chance to succeed because he has been vetted for the things that we are looking for.

The real problem is with the sons and daughters of those immigrants who are native born Canadians, Australians or UK citizens.

And we are searching for the reasons that they have gone rogue and how to prevent that. So are the EU countries.

So is the US for that matter.

So far only the fringe elements have suggested that Canada should allow immigration only from Caucasian Europeans.

Is that what you would advocate for the UK and Europe and the US, Morris? I think that that would violate the constitutions, written or unwritten of many countries.

Cheers,

George

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 5968
http:// 82.44.47.99
Re: Another London attack
Posted on: 6/5/2017 1:46:14 PM

Quote:
Update: The figures in this piece referring to recent net migration have been updated following new figures published on 21 May 2017.

The Conservative party target to reduce net migration from the 'hundreds of thousands' to the 'tens of thousands' has been reflected in stricter policies for admitting non-EU students, family members and workers.

Eligibility criteria for work visas have become more selective but overall numbers remain similar to 2010 levels.

British citizens and settled residents must now earn at least £18,600 if they want to bring their spouse to the UK, up from a post-tax income of £5,500 before July 2012.

The exact number of family visa applications this policy has prevented is not known.
uGov.org

NB.I have to admit that the above could be no more than a good sound bite for the Tory Party.It is too "broad brush" for my liking.


Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

Riaindevoy
Geelong, Australia
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major


Posts: 1076

Re: Another London attack
Posted on: 6/5/2017 6:21:40 PM
If that Survey is a scam are surveys that give the opposite conclusion scams too?

Also I've heard or read that beyond a certain sample size getting more people doesn't make for a better survey result, that's why they only sample about 1000 people.
---------------
Vegetarian: the ancient tribal word for the villiage idiot; who was too stupid to hunt, fish and ride!

SJ
Belfast N Ireland, UK
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 697

Re: Another London attack
Posted on: 6/5/2017 6:36:13 PM
You have to love the Londoners. They attacked the killers with a hail of drinking glasses, beer bottles and chairs. The police managed a rapid response and in 8 minutes and killed the 3 terrorists. A Romanian baker Florin Morarin attacked the terrorists with a bread tray and chased them out of the bakery- Does Florin want a British Passport ? Give him one - and is there many more like him back home ?

And...one wee man when back to the restaurant that had been attacked the following day, to pay his bill and tip the staff.

And that's why London will survive. It reminds me of Belfast in the 1970s. We had "an acceptable level of violence", and in a surreal way life goes on. The terror threat becomes normal- part of an accepted risk, like road accidents.

I suppose its a bit like gun crime in the United States. Those who support the right to bear firearms accept that there will be high levels of gun related deaths. 13,286 in 2015.

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5315

Re: Another London attack
Posted on: 6/5/2017 7:54:54 PM

Quote:
If that Survey is a scam are surveys that give the opposite conclusion scams too?

Also I've heard or read that beyond a certain sample size getting more people doesn't make for a better survey result, that's why they only sample about 1000 people.
--Riaindevoy


It's not the sample size. It's the restrictions that they placed upon it. The persons interviewed had to be living in a primarily Muslim community.

So the greater number of Muslim, UK residents were not interviewed.

But right wing newspapers and the people who read them jump on the results and it becomes, 1 in 4 British Muslims approve of jihadi violence.

It should be reported that the level of anger is higher among concentrations of Muslims in neighbourhoods of disaffected people.

The greater percentage of British Muslims have not indicated their beliefs. They weren't interviewed, only a particular socio-economic group.

Cheers,

George

morris crumley
Lawrenceville, GA, USA
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 1196

Re: Another London attack
Posted on: 6/5/2017 9:29:52 PM
So then, those Muslims in majority Muslim neighborhoods..have more anger...but are not indicative of "British Muslims?"

Kinda makes my point doesn`t it. That there are areas where there are Mulsims who are not happy campers..and aren`t really the same as "British Muslims"...are kinda more tribal, more sectarian. Not "integrated" as you prefer.

I mean, what your saying is that there two different Muslims in Britain. the ones who are "British Muslims" and the ones who live in Muslim enclaves.

Does it make the poll any more pan-worthy to have Muslims, in majority Muslim neighborhoods, who have a higher level of anger...only one third of which would report some one they know to be engaged in terror activity, and twenty five percent of whom belief violence in the name of their religion is OK?

That would make me feel better to know that those figures only come from the parts of town where the real pissed off live.

Respects, Morris
---------------
"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."

Riaindevoy
Geelong, Australia
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major


Posts: 1076

Re: Another London attack
Posted on: 6/5/2017 9:40:47 PM
Sure, but what is the predominant socio economic profile of British Muslims? Or in a related issue is the cohort of low socio economic muslims large enough to go close to that 100000 number, maybe 90000 or 80000,and if so does 80000 represent not enough of a danger to act upon?

I think false equivalencies and trashing all the data due to a reasonable variance is a danger as it allows no action.
---------------
Vegetarian: the ancient tribal word for the villiage idiot; who was too stupid to hunt, fish and ride!

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5315

Re: Another London attack
Posted on: 6/6/2017 6:39:45 AM

Quote:
Kinda makes my point doesn`t it. That there are areas where there are Mulsims who are not happy campers..and aren`t really the same as "British Muslims"...are kinda more tribal, more sectarian. Not "integrated" as you prefer.

I mean, what your saying is that there two different Muslims in Britain. the ones who are "British Muslims" and the ones who live in Muslim enclaves.


You are drawing conclusions that have not been indicated in the survey that you quoted.

That is dangerous practice. And Morris, have you changed the findings from that survey? Are the numbers different?

What is important is mitigation? Find out why people are disaffected. It may be something as simple as having a crap job and not feeling a part of the mainstream. I am speculating here myself.

Having opinions is not a crime in the UK. Terrorist activity is and they are going after those people.


And Morris, I think that you need to employ more critical thinking when quoting these polls.

The polling company was hired by the Sun newspaper, a tabloid rag. We have those here too.

Did you bother to check the source of the survey because it has been widely criticized?

The Sun delights in printing provocative headlines.

This is the same paper that was raked over the coals because one of their reporters called all migrants to Britain, "feral humans" and "cockroaches".
That's the type of BS reporting for which this paper is famous.

Take a look at the quote below. It appears to me that the Sun went looking for a survey company that would find the conclusions that it wanted to write about. This was not academic research from the sociology department of a university.

The Sun's regular polling company refused the job because they could not guarantee accuracy.


Quote:
Survation was approached by the Sun because the paper’s regular pollsters, YouGov, “didn’t want to do the poll”. YouGov said it did not want to carry out the study because it could not be confident that it could accurately represent the British Muslim population within the timeframe and budget set by the paper.


This isn't the first time that you have jumped on a provocative headline and then jumped to conclusions, Morris.

Here is an article describing the backlash against this survey whose results were first posted in the Sun and then picked up by the right wing press around the world. Where did you read it first, Breitbart? Seriously, I would like to know.

[Read More]

Are there socio-economic issues that may be influencing the attitudes and behaviours of some British Muslims? Possibly, in fact, likely.

But let's let the professionals and the people trained to determine the root causes of domestically sourced terrorism do their jobs and leave the rag newspapers out of it.

Cheers,

George


morris crumley
Lawrenceville, GA, USA
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 1196

Re: Another London attack
Posted on: 6/6/2017 8:36:51 AM
George, according to US diplomatic cables released in January, 2009...that is six years before the poll you blow off...the US was concerned over a poll conducted by the Center For Social Cohesion that was a survey of 600 UK Muslim students at 30 universities all across Britain and found that 32 percent of Muslim respondents believed killing in the name of religion is justified. ( Sound familiar?) 54% wanted a Muslim Party to represent their world views in Parliament, and 40% want Muslims in the UK to live under Sharia Law.

Now this was in US diplomat documents released in 2009 by Wikileaks...but I have yet to hear of or see any such Wiki documents that are fabricated..or proven to be made up crap! Nor has the US claimed them to be illegitimate.

The communications from US diplomats (I assume they have some desire "to determine the root causes of domestically sourced terrorism" ) expressed the concerns that the UK had a growing problem with Muslims not really becoming blended into the host nation.

It seems to me that you are the one who is poll shopping if you don`t agree with the results.

Secondly, I came across the original poll through a Google search George. I did some damn research. You may not like it, you may not care for my research...but I don`t read crap on any site and just "go with it." And this is now multiple times you have accused some one of using Breitbart as a source. You did it the other day in response to Brian Williams. So...who`s "jumping to conclusions."

Also, the poll that I have sited twice now was not done by Survation...but by ICM Unlimited, and was not done for the Sun! So different poll anyway.

I applaud the news that came out yesterday that about 130 Imams have stated that they refuse to preside over any services for the killers. This is important, the notion that those Muslims who say that terrorists are not representative of Islam, are not true Muslims, do not represent the faith, and have hijacked the religion...need to follow through by publicly shaming and condemning these bastards instead of saying they are not true Muslims...then treating their dead carcass as if they are members of the faith.

Respects, Morris


---------------
"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."

Lightning
Glasgow, UK
top 20
E-7 Sgt First Class


Posts: 444

Re: Another London attack
Posted on: 6/6/2017 10:21:55 AM

Quote:
I applaud the news that came out yesterday that about 130 Imams have stated that they refuse to preside over any services for the killers. This is important, the notion that those Muslims who say that terrorists are not representative of Islam, are not true Muslims, do not represent the faith, and have hijacked the religion...need to follow through by publicly shaming and condemning these bastards instead of saying they are not true Muslims...then treating their dead carcass as if they are members of the faith.--morris crumley


Doesn't really support your argument that we have a Muslim problem, does it Morris? What's the story here; that most people are decent and humane individuals already? We knew that already.

That some Muslims want Sharia Law, sympathise with Islamic fundamentalist ideology, don't wish to integrate and generally would rather recreate their countries of origin that absorb themselves into their new homes is nothing new. Separate enclaves across Europe; in Glasgow, the Irish largely clustered into the centre, south and east of the city; in London, the Jews clung to the east; the Poles follow where the work is (and often live in multiple-occupancy properties); and so on. The reasons for this are largely economic, and generally not political. The UK has many 2nd/3rd generation immigrants who have got on with it, from all religions, including Islam.

I'm sure within every ethnic and national group that there exists a small enclave of people who believe their grouping to be superior and wish to dominate, but rarely through terrorism. We shouldn't hold all accountable for the actions of a few (i.e. we didn't expel all Irish people when the IRA were killing citizens in bombings and shootings across the land). You absolutely cannot convince me that there is a Muslim plot to overthrow Europe and raise the Crescent over the continent; most Muslims are far too busy working hard, paying taxes and raising families to be involved in some massive long term conspiracy.

I also refuse to accept any evidence that is cited by rags such as the Daily Mail and The @@n, when their only seeming objective is to divide and insult the population.

Cheers,

Colin
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"There is no course open to us but to fight it out. Every position must be held to the last man: there must be no retirement. With our backs to the wall and believing in the justice of our cause, each one of us must fight to the end."

morris crumley
Lawrenceville, GA, USA
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 1196

Re: Another London attack
Posted on: 6/6/2017 10:48:49 AM
No Colin, it shows me that at least 130 Imams realize that there is a problem and that continuing on as normal is not good enough.

Respects, Morris
---------------
"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5315

Re: Another London attack
Posted on: 6/6/2017 11:59:29 AM
I think that American perception of what is happening in the UK is skewed by the paranoia, and is fuelled by irresponsible remarks made by politicians and that includes the President.

The comments about the mayor of London made by Mr. Trump were completely off base and I anticipated a retraction. He attacked the mayor to indicate that the mayor of London was soft peddling the terrorism angle.

Instead the completely wrong headed comments were doubled down and then supported by the Trump sons.

Later I heard defenders of the President say that he was trying to indicate that the Brits aren't taking terrorism seriously enough.


Any culture that responds in the way that the people of Manchester and of London have of late, is worthy of our respect. They are resolute and calm and analytical even as they grieve. It is a picture that we have seen many times before from this nation.

We can learn from that and that includes some American news outlets and the President himself.


Cheers,

George


Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 2775

Re: Another London attack
Posted on: 6/6/2017 1:36:12 PM
Amen to that!!!
---------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

morris crumley
Lawrenceville, GA, USA
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 1196

Re: Another London attack
Posted on: 6/6/2017 3:20:58 PM
George, I will stay away from political on this chapter. This is not LFF.

But we can certainly all agree that the people of Manchester and London have shown great strength and resolve in the face of this latest incarnation of madness.

Respects, Morris
---------------
"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."

Lightning
Glasgow, UK
top 20
E-7 Sgt First Class


Posts: 444

Re: Another London attack
Posted on: 6/7/2017 6:18:19 AM

Quote:
But we can certainly all agree that the people of Manchester and London have shown great strength and resolve in the face of this latest incarnation of madness.--morris crumley


The implication being that the political leadership and civil authorities haven't done enough? Again, I'll ask specifically what it is you think they should be doing that they aren't?

Cheers,

Colin
---------------
"There is no course open to us but to fight it out. Every position must be held to the last man: there must be no retirement. With our backs to the wall and believing in the justice of our cause, each one of us must fight to the end."

Brian Williams
Atlanta, GA, USA
Administrator


Posts: 362
http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com
Re: Another London attack
Posted on: 6/7/2017 8:49:29 AM

Quote:
Again, I'll ask specifically what it is you think they should be doing that they aren't?

Cheers,

Colin

--Lightning


There's quite a bit that can done that isn't being done. Theresa May brought up several things they need to do.

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