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 (2000-Pres) Current Day Military talk (No Partisan Politics)    
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George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5700

Re: Another London attack
Posted on: 6/7/2017 10:19:38 AM
Brian, all leaders are looking at what they can do. All should be examining their security measures.

PM May wants to know how at least one of the attackers on the London Bridge slipped through the cracks. That doesn't mean that there aren't protocols in place but they didn't work in this case.

She is probably winning some support in view of the upcoming elections with statements like this:


Quote:
“But I can tell you a few of the things I mean by that: I mean longer prison sentences for people convicted of terrorist offences. I mean making it easier for the authorities to deport foreign terror suspects to their own countries.

“And I mean doing more to restrict the freedom and the movements of terrorist suspects when we have enough evidence to know they present a threat, but not enough evidence to prosecute them in full in court.

“And if human rights laws stop us from doing it, we will change those laws so we can do it.”


Good luck with that. She is already being raked over the coals for these statements.

What is resented is the noise coming from the US that the UK isn't doing enough, both from the President, his sons and other Republicans.

Now they haven't been very specific but the President's agenda, if he hopes to push it through, demands that he portray the UK and the rest of the EU as dangerous places with lawless communities, full of discontented Muslims who wish to do harm.

He wants to push through his travel ban and I found his comments about the Mayor of London and the situation in the UK to be not only a lie in one case but grossly exaggerated.

His approach is self serving and cynical.

But to your post, what is it specifically that isn't being done in the UK that the US is doing better? I am serious because if there are better measures that don't impact heavily on civil liberties, then we all need to learn from each other.

Cheers,

George

Lightning
Glasgow, UK
top 20
E-7 Sgt First Class


Posts: 459

Re: Another London attack
Posted on: 6/7/2017 11:35:17 AM
She was Home Secretary for six years prior to being Prime Minister and therefore had ample opportunity before now to do something. Instead, she starved the security services of funding and cut 20,000 Police officer posts, most drawn from community beats and therefore hampered efforts of community engagement via pro-active preventative policy.. Her sudden conversion to "hang 'em and flog 'em" methods of tackling the consequences (and again she still isn't even paying lip service to the cause!) of terrorism is nothing short of disgracefully hypocritical; anybody would think there's an election or something tomorrow.

Colin
---------------
"There is no course open to us but to fight it out. Every position must be held to the last man: there must be no retirement. With our backs to the wall and believing in the justice of our cause, each one of us must fight to the end."

morris crumley
Lawrenceville, GA, USA
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 1293

Re: Another London attack
Posted on: 6/7/2017 1:08:33 PM

Quote:

Quote:
But we can certainly all agree that the people of Manchester and London have shown great strength and resolve in the face of this latest incarnation of madness.--morris crumley


The implication being that the political leadership and civil authorities haven't done enough? Again, I'll ask specifically what it is you think they should be doing that they aren't?

Cheers,

Colin

--Lightning


Well, for starters you can arm your damn police officers. The time from the initial onslaught to the shooting of the three perpetrators was about eight minutes. Not bad response. But, if what I have read is true, the initial contact happened within two minutes or so of the bridge attack commencing...and the police had only batons or plastic cafe chair to confront them with. "Halt...or I`ll flail at you with this plastic chair" is not the same as "Halt... say hello to my 9mm friend...bamm...bamm...bamm."

Another thing is that...you just got attacked by a terrorist who was on a TV show called "Jihad Neighbor" or some such crap! He was a known problem!

And there are over 400 jihad i types from the UK who went and fought with the enemies of the UK and the Western Democracies and have been allowed to come back as if they were just "extreme tourists." We can not abide the stupidity that what would once have been "traitors" to the country...are now just some bad news tourist to be tolerated. Some two hundred are said to have returned to London. Good luck!

And those open EU borders are being used against you. it appears that the various police and itell crackdowns that have been the result of previous attacks have disrupted the flow of weapons. People are now watched..or in jail..the logistics support for terror operations is somewhat diminished. Thus the need for trucks and knives. But the flow of bad folks from one country to the other..some of whom are known bad actors has not been sufficiently dealt with.

Respects, Morris

As I said, this is not the place to get into politics..one way or the other.
---------------
"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5700

Re: Another London attack
Posted on: 6/7/2017 5:15:49 PM
The Brits and many other countries do not have gun cultures.

And from what I understand from British friends, the don't feel comfortable with an armed police officer on regular duty.

But they do have special officers who are armed and who apparently can respond quite quickly.


Morris, how many Americans have left to fight for al Qaeda or Daesh? What do you do with them when they come home?


George

Brian Williams
Atlanta, GA, USA
Administrator


Posts: 368
http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com
Re: Another London attack
Posted on: 6/7/2017 5:40:35 PM

Quote:
The Brits and many other countries do not have gun cultures.

George
--George


We know this George. It doesn't mean the police shouldn't be armed better. It's only a matter of time if this continues.
The police officer who just had the baton was stabbed and he was the only thing between the terrorists and the public behind him.
They're lucky more people weren't hurt.

morris crumley
Lawrenceville, GA, USA
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 1293

Re: Another London attack
Posted on: 6/7/2017 5:55:39 PM
Here is the problem about armed police: Only about 5 percent of police in the UK ( except Northern Ireland) are armed. They are well trained in firearms and their use. But, that means 95 percent are not armed. Now, a city like London, which has ..hell.. maybe 200,000 security cameras..and these "special asset officers' can maybe be sent fairly quickly to where there is an ongoing situation. But, away from the big city....there could be an attack underway and it may take twenty minutes or more to get armed assets there.

I agree with Brian, this could have been much worse.

And make no mistake, I don`t think the US is hard enough...or on enough of a war footing. We have made horrible mistakes....foremost in my mind is the stupid notion that , while we are at war with terrorists, a soldier who was a terrorist could walk along an army base and shoot dozens of US soldiers because...the soldiers were not permitted to carry weapons. Men and women who train every day with firearms...were not given the opportunity to defend themselves from a "jihad Johnny" at Ft. Hood.

But any country, in a time when we are at war with a determined enemy, that allows for it`s people to leave to fight for that enemy..and then return as if nothing was wrong....is a country being stupid.

I have sadly come to believe that, on this day after the anniversary of D-Day on the Normandy coast...that this generation would never be able to do that.

Respects, Morris

---------------
"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5700

Re: Another London attack
Posted on: 6/7/2017 9:35:41 PM
British police fired weapons 7 times in 2016. 4 people were killed. That was an unusually high number by comparison to other years.

Somewhere under 1000 people were killed by police in the USA in the same time period.

In Canada, about 25 people are shot and killed by police each year and people are upset about that. It is considered too many especially when the death occurs with someone who is emotionally unstable.


You know, you can see the cultural differences on this forum and attitudes toward arming citizens as a solution.

And I don't think that we are on a war footing. That is paranoia talking and I say this knowing full well that a terrorist attack could occur in my country and has.

Cheers,

George


Brian Williams
Atlanta, GA, USA
Administrator


Posts: 368
http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com
Re: Another London attack
Posted on: 6/7/2017 11:48:08 PM
George,

Here's the problem. If the officer with the baton had a gun, he would've neutralized the terrorists. He didn't. He almost died and negligently endangered the people behind him because he was barely effective. The media is very quiet about the particulars. All we know is he had just the baton and he was standing between the terrorists and civilians and he nearly died. I am not saying arm the public...but give law enforcement the tools they need to protect the public. It's already happening in the UK. It's gradual. I understand that. We have cops in line at Taco Bell with guns and it doesn't phase Americans. We don't freak out. It's like a baton to us.

I'm just saying that law enforcement needs to be able to do what they need to do. Europe is now the front line against terrorism it seems. It's not paranoia. We had over 3000 people murdered on 9/11 and it's the same thing happening again and again and again. IMHO, you're sticking your head in the sand and need to be aware of what is really happening. How short your memory is George.

Riaindevoy
Geelong, Australia
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major


Posts: 1114

Re: Another London attack
Posted on: 6/8/2017 12:35:29 AM
Our regular cops have guns and the SOG/TOG etc have long arms, but the latest talk is for more cops to carry long arms such as the ~100 strong PROT (riot police) in NSW and Victoria. That should get these states from 1 group of long arms to 5 or 6 groups spread throughout Melbourne and Sydney.
---------------
Vegetarian: the ancient tribal word for the villiage idiot; who was too stupid to hunt, fish and ride!

BWilson

top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 3522

Re: Another London attack
Posted on: 6/8/2017 1:43:41 AM
Europe is now the front line against terrorism it seems. It's not paranoia.

 I agree. The general conception of "war" is often grounded in mental imagery of conventional war. This -is- war, but it is asymmetric warfare because those attacking us don't have the ability to confront us openly in conventional battle. We deny that fact at our peril.

Cheers

BW
---------------
With occasional, fatigued glances at life's rear-view mirror from the other side of time.

Dt509er
Santa Rosa, CA, USA
top 20
E-7 Sgt First Class


Posts: 469

Re: Another London attack
Posted on: 6/8/2017 2:20:39 AM

Quote:
That is paranoia talking and I say this knowing full well that a terrorist attack could occur in my country and has.

Cheers,

George


--George


Hi George. I am being simplistic here and maybe you mean otherwise but, "a terrorist attack could occur" in Canada? That has already happened.., yes?
---------------
"American parachutists-devils in baggy pants..."

I take offense to your perception of being offended!

“If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better experiment.” Lord Ernest Rutherford

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5700

Re: Another London attack
Posted on: 6/8/2017 6:07:19 AM
Awkwardly phrased by me, dt509er.

I meant that we are not immune to future attacks and we have our own few disgruntled residents who seem to see the goals of Daesh as valid.

We have had young men and young woman head off to Syria to fight or to marry an ISIS sympathizer.

My reference to the past means that we have had incidents whereby terrorist plots were foiled. These would be people living in Canada with plans to do something evil.

The Toronto 18 had planned to blow up the CN tower in Toronto and to kill the PM. They were amateurs and had been infiltrated by a Muslim, RCMP plant.

In another case, two Muslim men plotted to blow up a train en route from the US to Canada. They were going to blow up a bridge near Niagara Falls as the train passed.

And some that have not been foiled like the killing of Cpl. Cirillo at the War Memorial in Ottawa by a Canadian convert to ISIS beliefs.

And the killing of Muslims in a mosque in Quebec City by a Canadian Christian.

One of the worst acts of terrorism was the planting of a bomb in a plane in Vancouver in 1988. This was Air India flight 182 which blew up over the Irish Sea.
The bombs had been planted by Sikh extremists while the plane stopped in Vancouver. They were caught, tried and convicted.

268 Canadians, 27 Brits and 24 Indians died in the explosion and crash.

So yes we have had violence associated with terrorism.

My big fear is that we begin to see all Muslims as the enemy and that our society becomes less welcoming and inclusive.


Cheers,

George

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5700

Re: Another London attack
Posted on: 6/8/2017 6:28:34 AM

Quote:
George,

Here's the problem. If the officer with the baton had a gun, he would've neutralized the terrorists. He didn't. He almost died and negligently endangered the people behind him because he was barely effective. The media is very quiet about the particulars. All we know is he had just the baton and he was standing between the terrorists and civilians and he nearly died. I am not saying arm the public...but give law enforcement the tools they need to protect the public. It's already happening in the UK. It's gradual. I understand that. We have cops in line at Taco Bell with guns and it doesn't phase Americans. We don't freak out. It's like a baton to us.

I'm just saying that law enforcement needs to be able to do what they need to do. Europe is now the front line against terrorism it seems. It's not paranoia. We had over 3000 people murdered on 9/11 and it's the same thing happening again and again and again. IMHO, you're sticking your head in the sand and need to be aware of what is really happening. How short your memory is George.
--Brian Williams


My memory is not short at all, Brian. I recall the killing of Cpl. Cirillo in Ottawa and at the same time, I recall the slaying of Muslims in their place of worship in Quebec City.

I know that we need to be vigilant and that our security agencies and immigration have to monitor signs of trouble domestically and to vet potential newcomers to the country. They are doing that and I hope that they have been given the resources to do so.

Americans may view the police service weapon as a "baton" but it is much more lethal than that.

I need to remind you that the US is one of the most violent countries in the western world. You may not be freaking out by the presence of guns but perhaps you should be. Your citizens are killed by police in alarming numbers and while I don't want to go down this path, we must acknowledge that you kill each other in enormous numbers with these weapons that you see as rather benign instruments.

You may see me and others like me as soft on terrorism but I see over reaction and panic in some Americans and politicians.

It is a marked difference in cultural response to situations. I say, be vigilant but be calm and analytical. Don't panic. Don't generalize.


We may not understand why the Brits feel that the regular constable does not need a weapon but perhaps they can explain it to us.

I would guess that in the aftermath of these events, that some Brits have been calling for a fully armed police service but I would like to hear from them.

In the most recent incident on the bridge, no officer with a weapon was going to stop those 3 men from killing with a van as the their weapon of choice.

Were you referring to the officer in the restaurant who was unarmed? I thought that he was an auxiliary officer or transit police.

I don't know what that designation of transport police (BTP) means in the London Police Service structure.

In Toronto, our transport police are not armed either. They have some powers to arrest and detain until the Toronto Police Service arrives to take the offender away.


Cheers,

George

morris crumley
Lawrenceville, GA, USA
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 1293

Re: Another London attack
Posted on: 6/8/2017 8:18:52 AM
This according to a 20 year London police officer: ".....the first officers at London Bridge arrived within two minutes. The brave officers tackled the terrorists armed with only batons and a chair. It is amazing that they were not killed. But, they were overpowered and the terrorists moved on and continued to stab other people.
This is not an unusual scenario. In 2010, during his rampage through Cumbria, Derrick Bird was quickly confronted by unarmed officers but aimed his gun at them. They were unable to return his fire and despite their bravery, Bird got away and killed a further nine people and injured one more."

Respects, Morris
---------------
"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."

Lightning
Glasgow, UK
top 20
E-7 Sgt First Class


Posts: 459

Re: Another London attack
Posted on: 6/8/2017 11:45:12 AM
The British people, by and large, don't like their officers armed in the routine course of duty. There's a feeling (and evidence to support it) that almost all incidents the police are asked to deal with in this country can be resolved without resorting to firearms. For those incidents that can't, we have specialist armed police. Despite the publicity, terrorist attacks are historically rare in the UK (compared with elsewhere) and gun crime is massively lower here than in other parts of the world. In short, our regular police constables don't need firearms. Where there is a risk of terrorist attacks, you'll see armed officers around or nearby.

Of course, it's a cultural thing. US citizens take offence when non-US persons suggest a link between the availability of guns and deaths by guns, but it is their right to bear arms, so fair enough. Just don't expect the people of the UK to suddenly bow down and accept that we need to arm every bobby on the beat with a 9mm pistol, because the evidence of routine crime in the UK tells us it simply isn't needed.

Cheers,

Colin

N.B is there also a possibility that if you armed all officers, that the terrorists might simply respond in kind (I do accept guns are harder to acquire than kitchen knives, of course)? Then you might see gun battles on the streets. I'm wary of jumping to radical solutions without significant investment in evaluation.
---------------
"There is no course open to us but to fight it out. Every position must be held to the last man: there must be no retirement. With our backs to the wall and believing in the justice of our cause, each one of us must fight to the end."

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5700

Re: Another London attack
Posted on: 6/8/2017 12:36:11 PM

Quote:
This according to a 20 year London police officer: ".....the first officers at London Bridge arrived within two minutes. The brave officers tackled the terrorists armed with only batons and a chair. It is amazing that they were not killed. But, they were overpowered and the terrorists moved on and continued to stab other people.
This is not an unusual scenario. In 2010, during his rampage through Cumbria, Derrick Bird was quickly confronted by unarmed officers but aimed his gun at them. They were unable to return his fire and despite their bravery, Bird got away and killed a further nine people and injured one more."

Respects, Morris
--morris crumley



How many instances like this have you found in the UK like this, Morris?

I'm not sure what you are trying to prove.

If I detailed the number of times that a US police officer irresponsibly discharged his weapon and killed a citizen, could I use that knowledge to determine that US police officers should be unarmed?


Cheers,

George

morris crumley
Lawrenceville, GA, USA
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 1293

Re: Another London attack
Posted on: 6/8/2017 1:02:30 PM
Not trying to prove anything George. Your reply to Brian asked if he were referring to a transit cop. This is from a 20 year veteran of the London police force who has related that the first contact with these terrorists and London police officers happened about two minutes after the attack had started...that they were unarmed officers...and that they could not stop the terrorists from getting past them and stabbing of number of other people before they were finally stopped by armed officers.

His statement speaks for its self.

Respects, Morris
---------------
"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."

kaii
Edinburgh, UK
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major


Posts: 1940

Re: Another London attack
Posted on: 6/8/2017 4:20:33 PM

Quote:
The British people, by and large, don't like their officers armed in the routine course of duty. There's a feeling (and evidence to support it) that almost all incidents the police are asked to deal with in this country can be resolved without resorting to firearms. For those incidents that can't, we have specialist armed police. Despite the publicity, terrorist attacks are historically rare in the UK (compared with elsewhere) and gun crime is massively lower here than in other parts of the world. In short, our regular police constables don't need firearms. Where there is a risk of terrorist attacks, you'll see armed officers around or nearby.

Of course, it's a cultural thing. US citizens take offence when non-US persons suggest a link between the availability of guns and deaths by guns, but it is their right to bear arms, so fair enough. Just don't expect the people of the UK to suddenly bow down and accept that we need to arm every bobby on the beat with a 9mm pistol, because the evidence of routine crime in the UK tells us it simply isn't needed.

Cheers,

Colin

N.B is there also a possibility that if you armed all officers, that the terrorists might simply respond in kind (I do accept guns are harder to acquire than kitchen knives, of course)? Then you might see gun battles on the streets. I'm wary of jumping to radical solutions without significant investment in evaluation.
--Lightning



I agree Colin.
Terrorist attacks represent a nuisance to society, but are in no way an existential threat that must by default force major changes to how a society operates. This appears to be the difference in how Americans and Europeans view terror attacks. For some reason Americans seem to count death by terrorist attack as much worse than being shot by a disgruntled coworker or your friendly neighbourhood police officer because he got jumpy (which statistically is far more likely to happen to you than get killed by a terrorist in the US). I don't really see the difference - and I have lost friends and colleagues in terrorist attacks.

To be brutal, the question is: "is saving, say 20 lives a year from terrorist attacks worth having say 25 people killed by police every year" (numbers are mine and not based on stats as such)? It is at least certainly worth evaluating before jumping to the conclusion that generally arming police is the solution.

I do agree with Brian W, though, that it is critical that police have the tools they need to do the job. There may well be an argument for arming more police in London (and other major cities) and a corresponding hike in training regular police how to deal with a threat like a guy with a knife. In principle, a police officer with a proper baton should, in general, be able to neutralise a guy with a knife as well (three of them though is a different thing of course).

K



---------------
You can be a Dictator or you can design ladies undergarments. You can't do both (Bertie Wooster)

kaii
Edinburgh, UK
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major


Posts: 1940

Re: Another London attack
Posted on: 6/8/2017 4:28:37 PM

Quote:
This according to a 20 year London police officer: ".....the first officers at London Bridge arrived within two minutes. The brave officers tackled the terrorists armed with only batons and a chair. It is amazing that they were not killed. But, they were overpowered and the terrorists moved on and continued to stab other people.
This is not an unusual scenario. In 2010, during his rampage through Cumbria, Derrick Bird was quickly confronted by unarmed officers but aimed his gun at them. They were unable to return his fire and despite their bravery, Bird got away and killed a further nine people and injured one more."

Respects, Morris
--morris crumley


"This is not an unusual scenario..." followed by a 7 year old case. I would submit that that in itself illustrates that this is indeed a very unusual scenario.

His statement is true in this particular case, of course, the first police officers on the scene were unable to stop the three attackers. I am not sure individual incidents should dictate policy without considering the bigger picture though - or, to put it differently, I am absolutely certain that basing wide policy decisions on individual incidents is a bad idea.


Having said that,
It is pretty much a dead debate though: Americans will never understand European sentiments, and Europeans will never understand American sentiments when it comes to guns.

K
---------------
You can be a Dictator or you can design ladies undergarments. You can't do both (Bertie Wooster)

redcoat
Stockport, UK
top 30
E-5 Sergeant


Posts: 220

Re: Another London attack
Posted on: 6/8/2017 4:37:56 PM
What is so difficult to understand ???

We don't like guns and feel they have no place in a civilized society.

redcoat
Stockport, UK
top 30
E-5 Sergeant


Posts: 220

Re: Another London attack
Posted on: 6/8/2017 4:46:14 PM

Quote:

When you give acceptance to "Sharia mediation, or Sharia Councils in your country..you think you are being a "multicultural nice guy." They perceive that as weakness...and acceptance of Sharia. Doen`t matter what you think..it`s what they perceive. When many Muslims receive welfare and social benefits in Western nations...it is viewed by many as the tax that non-believers must pay to Islam. Again, doesn`t matter what you may see it as..it is what they perceive. What you perceive as gracious hospitality...many of them perceive as the weakness and the suplication of the infidel.
--morris crumley
The use of Sharia Law in civil law in the UK has nothing to do with modern multiculturalism. English civil law from the Middle ages has always allowed two parties in dispute to use a third party of their own choosing to arbitrate.

redcoat
Stockport, UK
top 30
E-5 Sergeant


Posts: 220

Re: Another London attack
Posted on: 6/8/2017 5:04:19 PM

Quote:

Terrorist attacks represent a nuisance to society, but are in no way an existential threat that must by default force major changes to how a society operates.
The number of people being killed each year in Europe through terrorist acts was greater in the 1970's

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