MHO Home   Forum Home   Help   Register   Login
 
 
Welcome to MilitaryHistoryOnline.com.
You are not signed in.
The current time is: 10/19/2017 4:20:38 PM
 Civil War - General    
AuthorMessage
Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 2762

Another brilliant Civil War expert!
Posted on: 5/1/2017 6:48:08 PM
You won't believe who is showing brilliance in Civil War knowledge!

[Read More]

[Read More]



Looking forward to more great CW talks from this brilliant man!
MD
---------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5297

Re: Another brilliant Civil War expert!
Posted on: 5/1/2017 7:20:05 PM
Yeah but I wouldn't be too upset about it. He seems to speak while he is thinking and that gets him in trouble.

But these comments aren't as problematic as the ones that seem to indicate that he is out of his depth as a governor.

He is an admirer of Andrew Jackson and opined that if Jackson had been around that he could have found a way to prevent the war.

He didn't say why he admires Jackson but in the past he has commented that the man was a slaver.

He was wrong to suggest that Americans don't ask why there was a civil war. I have been in US book stores and you could fill a library with the number of history, biography and analyses of this war, in the book stores. So yes they do ask.

And some cite multiple factors and antecedent conditions that precipitated the war while others choose to concentrate on the slavery question only.

I just don't know why he suddenly decided to talk about the civil war but he left himself open to criticism again because he was unclear about his knowledge of Jackson and about the causes of the civil war.

The man isn't an academic or particularly learned, and he is not a polished speaker so he shouldn't pass ammunition to his detractors, again.

There are other actions that he has taken or wants to take that are more important discussion points.

Cheers,

George

Bubble_head
Austin, TX, USA
New User
E-2 Private


Posts: 25

Re: Another brilliant Civil War expert!
Posted on: 5/1/2017 9:02:08 PM
You're being way too easy on that idiot.

I clearly heard him claim that Jackson was bothered by what was going on with the Civil War. His words.

Clearly Trump has his timelines cocked up. Jackson was POTUS a full twenty plus years before the war even started! Plus, he was of course a democrat. Indeed, considered by most political science guys to be the father of today's Democratic party.

I think Trump was confusing Jackson with Andrew Johnson. A hardass Republican bigot and under qualified man like the Donald.

John Gross
Desert Southwest, USA
top 50
E-4 Specialist


Posts: 57

Re: Another brilliant Civil War expert!
Posted on: 5/1/2017 9:42:04 PM
Ummm...ok.

While the shooting started in 1861, the Civil War was brewing decades before that time. During the Nullification Crisis of 1832, Andrew Jackson wrote about secession, preserving the Union, and actually used the term "civil war."

Below is a private letter written by Jackson. The bold emphasis is mine.

John Gross



[Read More]

A Private Letter Written By General Jackson, on the 1st of May, 1833, to Rev. A.J. Crawford

My Dear Sir---I have just received your letter of the 6th ultimo, and have only time in reply to say that General Coffee well understood Mr. Shackleford, and urged your nomination in his stead. I had nominated you; but, on the serious importunity of Col King, your Senator, with General Coffee, the change was adopted, and you nominated for the office you now fill.

The Senate cannot remove you, and I am sure your faithfullness and honesty will never permit you to do an act that will give good cause for your removal; and, if Moor and Poindexter discovered that you were related to me, that would be sufficient cause for them to reject you. Therefore it is, that I let well enough alone, although I know it would be a convenience to you to be located where you are; still a rejection by the Senate might prove a greater inconvenience, and, for the reasons assigned, it was not done.

I have had a laborious task here; but nullification is dead, and its actors and courtiers will only be remembered by the people to be execrated for their wicked designs to sever and destroy the only good government on the globe, and that prosperity and happiness we enjoy over every other portion of the world. Haman's gallows ought to be the fate of all such ambitious men, who would involve the country in civil war, and all the evils in its train, that they might reign and ride on its whirlwinds, and direct the storm. The free people of these United States have spoken, and consigned these demagogues to their proper doom. Take care of your nullifiers you have amongst you. Let them meet the indignant frowns of every man who loves his country. The tariff, it is now known, was a mere pretext. Its burthen was on your coarse woolens---by the law of July, 1832, coarse woolen was reduced to five per cent. for the benefit of the South. Mr. Clay's bill takes it up and classes it with woolens at 50 per cent., reduces it gradually down to 20 per cent., and there it is to remain, and Mr. Calhoun and all the nullifiers agree to the principle. The cash duties and home valuation will be equal to 15 per cent. more, and after the year 1842, you pay on coarse woolens 35 per cent. If this is not protection, I cannot understand. Therefore the tariff was only the pretext, and disunion and a Southern confederacy the real object. The next pretext will be the negro, or slavery, question.

My health is not good, but is improving a little. Present me kindly to your lady and family, and believe me to be your friend. I will always be happy to hear from you.

Andrew Jackson
---------------
My areas of expertise are firearms and Latin females. Not necessarily in that order.

Gregory C. White
Canton, GA, USA
top 40
E-4 Corporal
Posts: 172

Re: Another brilliant Civil War expert!
Posted on: 5/2/2017 12:03:16 AM

Quote:
You won't believe who is showing brilliance in Civil War knowledge!

[Read More]

[Read More]



Looking forward to more great CW talks from this brilliant man!
MD
--Michigan Dave


Unlike Obama, at least Trump knows there are 50 states, not 57.
---------------
"I do not believe that any man can adequately appreciate the world of to-day unless he has some knowledge of...[and] some feeling for...the history of the world of the past." Theodore Roosevelt

BWilson

top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 3307

Re: Another brilliant Civil War expert!
Posted on: 5/2/2017 3:16:20 AM
Greg,

 I've been assured more than once by Europeans there are 52 states. Perhaps 52 is a more popular number than 50 ?

Cheers

BW
---------------
With occasional, fatigued glances at life's rear-view mirror from the other side of time.

Society's righteous paranoia lows profoundly. -- random wisdom of a computer

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5297

Re: Another brilliant Civil War expert!
Posted on: 5/2/2017 6:30:32 AM

Quote:
You're being way too easy on that idiot.

I clearly heard him claim that Jackson was bothered by what was going on with the Civil War. His words.

Clearly Trump has his timelines cocked up. Jackson was POTUS a full twenty plus years before the war even started! Plus, he was of course a democrat. Indeed, considered by most political science guys to be the father of today's Democratic party.

I think Trump was confusing Jackson with Andrew Johnson. A hardass Republican bigot and under qualified man like the Donald.
--Bubble_head



Bubble_head, this may have been the only time that I have gone easy on Trump on this forum. And I have been taken to task for taking a strip off him.

I just think that he is out of his depth in anything but real estate. I hope that we in Canada never have a leader of a party or a PM who has no experience of government.

But in this case, with all the other examples of mismanagement and failure by the administration, this kerfuffle over civil war comments made by Trump is a bit of piling on, in my view. It's kind of like, "listen to what doofus is saying now".

I have to say though, as a foreigner, that this war still seems to be a contentious event in the US. Just look at the comments here. People can be roused to anger very quickly over small points.

As well I have noted that you folks tend to place your Presidents on pedestals. I find it unusual that Presidents have unusual power to govern like Emperors. These executive orders, delivered with flare while the President holds up a folder in a "look what I just did" moment seem rather unnecessary. Of course, when you've only got 100 days to make an impact, I guess that showmanship becomes part of the process.

I find it unusual that people look to the President for wisdom and guidance when he or she may be less intelligent than required.

It seems to me that the Congress should be the focal point especially since it is your Congress and Judiciary that can put the brakes on when the elected President proves to be a poor decision maker.

Isn't that where the real work is done?


Cheers,

George



George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5297

Re: Another brilliant Civil War expert!
Posted on: 5/2/2017 6:58:25 AM
I did find it unusual that Trump thought that Andrew Jackson would have found a solution.

He is an admirer of the man though I don't know why.

Perhaps Mr. Trump felt that Jackson's role in placating South Carolina over the tariff issues made him a candidate to stave off the civil war 15 years later.

He did say that "if Jackson was around" so I think that he knew that the man was dead at the time of the war.

But he also said:


Quote:
‘I mean had Andrew Jackson been a little later you wouldn’t have had the Civil War. He was a very tough person, but he had a big heart. He was really angry that he saw what was happening with regard to the Civil War, he said, “There’s no reason for this.”


He seems to have a marginal grasp of history at any time and in his ignorance, he engages in revisionism with regard to Jackson.

That's how it appears.

Now he will need to explain how Andrew Jackson, ethnic cleanser of First Nations and slave holder would have found a resolution.

There were economic problems creating a rift between the federal government and the states and the southern economy functioned on the backs of free enslaved labour. So Jackson's resolutions would be interesting to hear.

But Mr. Trump wasn't thinking about that because he wasn't thinking when he spoke. Musing out loud can get politicians in trouble.

In the words of Mr. Trump, "Bad".

But I would give him a pass here because he has North Korea, health care, NAFTA, a wall, tax reform and god knows what all on his plate. He doesn't have a civil war to avoid, yet.


Cheers,

George

scoucer
Berlin, Germany
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 1923

Re: Another brilliant Civil War expert!
Posted on: 5/2/2017 9:11:41 AM

Quote:
Greg,

 I've been assured more than once by Europeans there are 52 states. Perhaps 52 is a more popular number than 50 ?

Cheers

BW
--BWilson


Now come on . Everybody knows that Liverpool is the 51st State. And I´m sure he was confusing Andrew with Samuel L.

[Read More]

Trevor
---------------
`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie

Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.

Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 2762

Re: Another brilliant Civil War expert!
Posted on: 5/2/2017 9:33:04 AM
This 51st State, Trevor!

[Read More]

A later debate on Jackson comments??

[Read More]

And George, your right, definitely much more important current world topics than this!

[Read More]
---------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

OpanaPointer
St. Louis, MO, USA
top 20
E-7 Sgt First Class
Posts: 465

Re: Another brilliant Civil War expert!
Posted on: 5/2/2017 11:11:12 AM
If that's the dumbest thing T.rump says in the next four years the world will be vastly relieved.

morris crumley
Lawrenceville, GA, USA
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 1189

Re: Another brilliant Civil War expert!
Posted on: 5/3/2017 8:15:55 AM
What is "dumb" is that this is even some kind of controversy in the first place!

It is not controversial to call into question why that war had to be fought. Many have said much the same thing. Even in the successful "Civil War " documentary, right up front author Shelby Foote says, it was "a failure of compromise. Our entire system is based on compromise...and it failed." I assume that means he felt it could have and should have been avoided! OMG!

Regardless of what people think about Andrew Jackson, he would have dealt with things differently. Big fricken deal!

Derangement syndrome at full work here.

I would advise that we be more concerned about half of this country being in open rebellion, violently protesting, insisting that an election they lost is not legitimate, and openly calling themselves "the resistance" is a lot more important to speak out against than some "perceived" nonsense like this. We may be living our own civil war.

Respects, Morris
---------------
"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5297

Re: Another brilliant Civil War expert!
Posted on: 5/3/2017 11:53:57 AM
Hello Morris,

I gave him a pass on his musings on the civil war because he has other things of greater importance on his plate.

However, I think that you give this man too much credit as a man of intellect. He is not.

He cannot give cogent arguments or explanations. That is why he should avoid historical topics or even current events. From what I gather, he is not one given to study and analysis and that makes him dangerous.

In that sense then, his comments on the civil war only highlight his weaknesses. His detractors think that he is an idiot with autocratic tendencies.

Are they right?

Examine his other comments this week. He would be honoured to meet with the North Korean President. He invites that whack job Duterte from the Philippines to visit and comments that both must have something because they are in charge. That's all it takes for Donald.

Kim Jong Un is only 26 and runs a country. Duterte is in charge and murders people without benefit of trial. But to Mr. Trump, there must be something there because those guys have won.

That's what he admires; strength and power. Those two fit the bill and so does Jackson.


Mr. Trump is an admirer of Andrew Jackson simply because someone compared the populist nature of Trump's campaign and approach to that of Andrew Jackson. That's good enough for a narcissist. "I must be the second coming of Andrew Jackson".

I can see how black Americans would be beside themselves when their President says that Americans don't ask why the war was started.

They know very well that they were at the root of it. State's rights, state rejection of federal tariffs. All of that is intertwined with an evil institution.

May I ask, what sort of compromise would Andrew Jackson or Shelby Foote have recommended that did not include the continuation of the practice of slavery in the south?


If open rebellion is the right to exercise the freedoms of your constitution, to gather for peaceful protest and to exercise the right to object to this man as their leader then yes, I guess you have a rebellion. Violent protest should be dealt with in the courts but most protests have been people marching peacefully.

But at the root of it is not an election that they lost but the fact that the electoral system allowed such a failed man as Donald Trump to rise to the highest office in the land.

Cheers,

George

Steve Clements
Toronto, ON, Canada
top 20
E-7 Sgt First Class
Moderator
Posts: 407

Re: Another brilliant Civil War expert!
Posted on: 5/3/2017 12:31:29 PM
Hi Morris,


Quote:
It is not controversial to call into question why that war had to be fought. Many have said much the same thing. Even in the successful "Civil War " documentary, right up front author Shelby Foote says, it was "a failure of compromise. Our entire system is based on compromise...and it failed." I assume that means he felt it could have and should have been avoided! OMG!

Regardless of what people think about Andrew Jackson, he would have dealt with things differently.


Once the first seven states seceded, Lincoln had (as far as I can see) only two choices:

1) Let them go.

2) Put down the rebellion with force.

What could Jackson have done differently? I really do not see any other options...

I mean, Lincoln may not have "liked" slavery, on a personal level, but he was not elected to end slavery, nor would have have done so without the war.

Do you disagree?

s.c.

morris crumley
Lawrenceville, GA, USA
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 1189

Re: Another brilliant Civil War expert!
Posted on: 5/3/2017 1:31:25 PM
Steve and George, I don`t have the time to "get into things" right now. But George, I am not going to get into a Trump discussion, or a political discussion on this thread. This is not LFF...nor is it Civil War Politics. I don`t know why the thread was begun but to take a slap at Trump...again...nor why it was not posted on LFF anyway.

Steve, you say Lincoln "was not elected to end slavery" and this is true. Even Lincoln made it clear that he was not an abolitionist, that he did not intend to end slavery where it already existed, but only it`s spread into the territories...but the perception of Lincoln among too many in the South was just the opposite. It doesn`t really matter what Lincoln`s intent was....it was about what the South expected his intentions to be. And beside, politically, halting slavery into the territories was an evolution to abolition...and Southern politicos knew it.

There are so very many officers who made up the Confederate army who did not want secession, did not think that it was worthy..regardless of ones feeling on slavery. But the firebrands won out, largely because of the distrust of Lincoln.

Perceptions, quite often, are more important than realities.

Respects, Morris
---------------
"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."

scoucer
Berlin, Germany
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 1923

Re: Another brilliant Civil War expert!
Posted on: 5/3/2017 1:48:57 PM

Quote:


Perceptions, quite often, are more important than realities.

Respects, Morris
--morris crumley


Agree Morris. Especially in conflict situations. Wether it´s the ACW, WW1, the Cold War , family therapy or a divorce.

Trevor
---------------
`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie

Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5297

Re: Another brilliant Civil War expert!
Posted on: 5/3/2017 3:30:20 PM
OK Morris. I didn't start the thread but I was on topic. I had forgotten that we were in the Civil War section. Perhaps Dave did too.

George

Steve Clements
Toronto, ON, Canada
top 20
E-7 Sgt First Class
Moderator
Posts: 407

Re: Another brilliant Civil War expert!
Posted on: 5/3/2017 5:54:08 PM
Morris,

Thank you for your reply.


Quote:
Steve, you say Lincoln "was not elected to end slavery" and this is true. Even Lincoln made it clear that he was not an abolitionist, that he did not intend to end slavery where it already existed, but only it`s spread into the territories...but the perception of Lincoln among too many in the South was just the opposite. It doesn`t really matter what Lincoln`s intent was....it was about what the South expected his intentions to be. And beside, politically, halting slavery into the territories was an evolution to abolution...and Southern politicos knew it.


As a born in Montreal "tete carre", my bias is that there are a lot of parallels between the two attempts (referendums ... I voted in the 1980 one...) of the Province of Quebec to leave Confederation, and the secession of the original seven southern states in 60/61.

1) Both the southern states and the Province of Quebec saw their relative influence decline over time, both economically (hard to believe now, but it wasn't that long ago that Montreal was the financial capital of Canada) and population wise.

2) The "elite" that ran the southern states (circa 1860), and the "elite" that governed thought in Quebec (1973 to ??) had something in common. In short, their relative importance was visibly in decline, and they didn't like it. I mean, which has more cache, being Premier of a debt ridden Province that everyone craps on, or being the leader of your own independent country. Same for the southern politicians. They were used to running Washington, but economic and population flows were lessening their relative power.

3) IMO, there was little to no risk that Lincoln was going to try and end slavery. Not sure if the "elite" sold that story to the electorate....but IMO, it was not the real reason that those seven states bolted. It was a power play by the honchos that ran those states...

On a somewhat similar basis, the Parti Quebecois basically sold the idea that, only in an independent Quebec, could the Quebec culture (basically peeler bars and steamy joints in every piss ant town in the Province) and language survive thrive. This, despite the fact that the Canadian Federal gov't bent over backwards (I could use a somewhat more vulgar analogy, but I won't) to "guarantee" that this would never happen. So that the signage in the airports and National Parks in Alberta and B.C. would be in French forever....

For what it's worth.

s.c.

Bubble_head
Austin, TX, USA
New User
E-2 Private


Posts: 25

Re: Another brilliant Civil War expert!
Posted on: 5/3/2017 7:33:33 PM
Trump clearly said that Jackson didn't like the ongoing Civil War.

There was nothing like a war going on in 1832. The letter you pasted doesn't even refer to the primary causes that began the real War in 1861.

Trump was confused with Andrew Johnson ad I explained in my OP.

Actually, his gaffe is all over the internet and the media. I'm surprised you haven't heard about it.

Trump is pretty much a moron insofar as History is concerned. Why are you defending him?


http://www.newsweek.com/trump-civil-war-gaffe-andrew-jackson-592331


Bubble_head
Austin, TX, USA
New User
E-2 Private


Posts: 25

Re: Another brilliant Civil War expert!
Posted on: 5/3/2017 7:44:03 PM
Yeah, George, I agree with everything you said.

Trump is in over his head as bad as Paris Hilton would be teaching calculus at Caltech.

The POTUS did not used to have as much power as he now does. I think our founding fathers would be fairly appalled, should they see how much power they wield these days.

The Congress is broken in my country. It is the worst problem in the government. The fact that the two sides are constantly at each other's throats and must win the game at hand at all costs. They have forgotten why they're in Washington in the first place. We need to instill done sort of incentive for them to work across the aisle. If they only would do so, far more things would get done. And problems solved, I guarantee you.

Steve Clements
Toronto, ON, Canada
top 20
E-7 Sgt First Class
Moderator
Posts: 407

Re: Another brilliant Civil War expert!
Posted on: 5/3/2017 9:58:09 PM
As Morris correctly noted, this is not LFF.....LFF being a more appropriate home for any "Trump" related discussions.


Gregory C. White
Canton, GA, USA
top 40
E-4 Corporal
Posts: 172

Re: Another brilliant Civil War expert!
Posted on: 5/4/2017 12:29:19 AM

Quote:
Yeah, George, I agree with everything you said.

Trump is in over his head as bad as Paris Hilton would be teaching calculus at Caltech.

The POTUS did not used to have as much power as he now does. I think our founding fathers would be fairly appalled, should they see how much power they wield these days.

The Congress is broken in my country. It is the worst problem in the government. The fact that the two sides are constantly at each other's throats and must win the game at hand at all costs. They have forgotten why they're in Washington in the first place. We need to instill done sort of incentive for them to work across the aisle. If they only would do so, far more things would get done. And problems solved, I guarantee you.
--Bubble_head


The incentive for congress should be accomplishing as much as possible while serving their constituents from back home while in Washington. The Founding Fathers would be appalled by these career politicians who spend most of their time raising money for their next election. Term limits are overdue. I'd make it 12 years for congress; two 6-year terms for senate; and no more than 15 years for the supreme court. There would be a constant renewal of new blood.
---------------
"I do not believe that any man can adequately appreciate the world of to-day unless he has some knowledge of...[and] some feeling for...the history of the world of the past." Theodore Roosevelt

morris crumley
Lawrenceville, GA, USA
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 1189

Re: Another brilliant Civil War expert!
Posted on: 5/4/2017 10:12:57 AM

Quote:

Quote:


Perceptions, quite often, are more important than realities.

Respects, Morris
--morris crumley


Agree Morris. Especially in conflict situations. Wether it´s the ACW, WW1, the Cold War , family therapy or a divorce.

Trevor

--scoucer


Amen to that Trevor. I am sure that my perceptions....and the perceptions of the woman here to referred to as "the redhead" are at complete opposite ends of the spectrum!

Respects, Morris
---------------
"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."

 Civil War - General    
 Forum Ads from Google