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 Civil War - General    
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1stvermont
Vermont, VT, USA
top 50
E-4 Specialist


Posts: 82

Petition to Designate All Civil War-Related Monuments as National Monuments
Posted on: 9/3/2017 4:18:06 PM
Sign up to keep america history intact

WHEREAS the monuments and statuary arising out of the American Civil War are an irreplaceable homage to our American history and heritage, and,

WHEREAS there are those who wish, from selfish motives, to destroy forever these memorials to brave and proud Americans on both sides of the conflict,

THEREFORE, we the undersigned, as the People of the United States, do hereby beseech the President to utilize his powers under the Antiquities Act to designate every such monument, memorial, and statue as NATIONAL MONUMENTS in order to preserve our priceless and irreplaceable history.

https://petitions.whitehouse.gov/pet...onal-monuments
---------------
“The CSA congress can have no such power over states officers. The state governments are an essential part of the political system, upon the separate and independent sovereignty of the states the foundation of the confederacy”
-1864 Virginia supremeCourt

OpanaPointer
St. Louis, MO, USA
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant
Posts: 519

Re: Petition to Designate All Civil War-Related Monuments as National Monum
Posted on: 9/3/2017 5:38:42 PM
Whites only?

1stvermont
Vermont, VT, USA
top 50
E-4 Specialist


Posts: 82

Re: Petition to Designate All Civil War-Related Monuments as National Monum
Posted on: 9/3/2017 6:27:56 PM

Quote:
Whites only?
--OpanaPointer


only whites like civil war history or american history? I think you have been taught a pc history my friend. But that would be for another thread.

---------------
“The CSA congress can have no such power over states officers. The state governments are an essential part of the political system, upon the separate and independent sovereignty of the states the foundation of the confederacy”
-1864 Virginia supremeCourt

OpanaPointer
St. Louis, MO, USA
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant
Posts: 519

Re: Petition to Designate All Civil War-Related Monuments as National Monum
Posted on: 9/3/2017 6:40:06 PM
You have your own brand of political correctness, so don't get holier-than-thou. As for civil war history, there's very little of it in those statues. They were funded in the greatest part by the KKK and fellow travelers from 1880 to 1920. The drop-off occurred when the KKK was disgraced national after the head was caught drugging and raping a co-ed.

And I have a Masters in History, as well as a bachelors in Psychology and another in Sociology, not the University of Youtube like so many people who spout off about "history".

morris crumley
Lawrenceville, GA, USA
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 1291

Re: Petition to Designate All Civil War-Related Monuments as National Monum
Posted on: 9/3/2017 7:48:19 PM
Thanks for the heads up 1stvermont..I signed it.

Respects, Morris
---------------
"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."

1stvermont
Vermont, VT, USA
top 50
E-4 Specialist


Posts: 82

Re: Petition to Designate All Civil War-Related Monuments as National Monum
Posted on: 9/4/2017 8:53:44 AM

Quote:
You have your own brand of political correctness.

And I have a Masters in History, as well as a bachelors in Psychology and another in Sociology, not the University of Youtube like so many people who spout off about "history".
--OpanaPointer


I would suggest you received the pc version. Is this not where PC is preached most?
---------------
“The CSA congress can have no such power over states officers. The state governments are an essential part of the political system, upon the separate and independent sovereignty of the states the foundation of the confederacy”
-1864 Virginia supremeCourt

OpanaPointer
St. Louis, MO, USA
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant
Posts: 519

Re: Petition to Designate All Civil War-Related Monuments as National Monum
Posted on: 9/4/2017 9:43:22 AM
Your own political correctness is the problem here, not mine.

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5692

Re: Petition to Designate All Civil War-Related Monuments as National Monum
Posted on: 9/4/2017 1:32:05 PM

Quote:

Quote:
You have your own brand of political correctness.

And I have a Masters in History, as well as a bachelors in Psychology and another in Sociology, not the University of Youtube like so many people who spout off about "history".
--OpanaPointer


I would suggest you received the pc version. Is this not where PC is preached most?

--1stvermont


1st Vermont. You seem to be gradually revealing your true mindset here, one that I find unappealing.

It seems that you have decided through the reading of whatever sources you have available that slavery "wasn't so bad" or at least, not the terrible institution that it was purported to have been.

Anyone who demurs in response is dismissed as someone guilty of political correctness. That in itself is not a sound or even fair rebuttal.

OP is well able to defend himself but if a person has spent time in an educational institution he has learned how to learn, how to research and to think critically.

To pass off his opinion as PC may signal that you are unaware of the educational and research process. It is unfortunate that he had to present his c-v to convince you of the gravity of his assessment of your comments.

To suggest that educational institutions only examine issues from a politically correct point of view is inaccurate. It has been my experience that most topics and indeed, most professors, bend over backwards to examine issues from all sides. They like to challenge conventional thought and make people uncomfortable with what they may have learned in the past.

On another topic, I would like to know the name of the group that sponsored the petition favouring retention of statues and to which you provided a link.


OpanaPointer
St. Louis, MO, USA
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant
Posts: 519

Re: Petition to Designate All Civil War-Related Monuments as National Monum
Posted on: 9/4/2017 1:40:54 PM
You can probably find it by visiting the Southern Poverty Law Center.

John R. Price
Wilkes-Barre, PA, USA
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant
Posts: 553

Re: Petition to Designate All Civil War-Related Monuments as National Monum
Posted on: 9/4/2017 4:18:06 PM
To suggest that educational institutions only examine issues from a politically correct point of view is inaccurate. It has been my experience that most topics and indeed, most professors, bend over backwards to examine issues from all sides. They like to challenge conventional thought and make people uncomfortable with what they may have learned in the past.

Why aren't you practicing what you preach? Couldn't 1stvermont's whole post on slavery be a challenge to conventional thought meant for discussion?

What If I told you it was a lawyer with the ACLU that was behind the petition? Even a broken clock is right twice a day.
---------------
A battle long forgotten by our country in a war never understood by our country.
"to satisfy our endless needs and justify our bloody deeds, in the name of destiny and in the name of God"


OpanaPointer
St. Louis, MO, USA
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant
Posts: 519

Re: Petition to Designate All Civil War-Related Monuments as National Monum
Posted on: 9/4/2017 6:08:57 PM
Which "you" are you addressing, please.

John R. Price
Wilkes-Barre, PA, USA
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant
Posts: 553

Re: Petition to Designate All Civil War-Related Monuments as National Monum
Posted on: 9/4/2017 6:54:42 PM
Which "you" did I quote with a copy and paste?


---------------
A battle long forgotten by our country in a war never understood by our country.
"to satisfy our endless needs and justify our bloody deeds, in the name of destiny and in the name of God"


1stvermont
Vermont, VT, USA
top 50
E-4 Specialist


Posts: 82

Re: Petition to Designate All Civil War-Related Monuments as National Monum
Posted on: 9/4/2017 7:58:34 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:
You have your own brand of political correctness.

And I have a Masters in History, as well as a bachelors in Psychology and another in Sociology, not the University of Youtube like so many people who spout off about "history".
--OpanaPointer


I would suggest you received the pc version. Is this not where PC is preached most?

--1stvermont


1st Vermont. You seem to be gradually revealing your true mindset here, one that I find unappealing.

It seems that you have decided through the reading of whatever sources you have available that slavery "wasn't so bad" or at least, not the terrible institution that it was purported to have been.

Anyone who demurs in response is dismissed as someone guilty of political correctness. That in itself is not a sound or even fair rebuttal.

OP is well able to defend himself but if a person has spent time in an educational institution he has learned how to learn, how to research and to think critically.

To pass off his opinion as PC may signal that you are unaware of the educational and research process. It is unfortunate that he had to present his c-v to convince you of the gravity of his assessment of your comments.

To suggest that educational institutions only examine issues from a politically correct point of view is inaccurate. It has been my experience that most topics and indeed, most professors, bend over backwards to examine issues from all sides. They like to challenge conventional thought and make people uncomfortable with what they may have learned in the past.

On another topic, I would like to know the name of the group that sponsored the petition favouring retention of statues and to which you provided a link.


--George



thanks for the thought George. I am sorry to disappoint your high hopes of my opinions. I hope we can disuse disagreements but most important, support them historically. If you are upset that i wish to preserve civil war statues [north and south] i am guilty as charged and dont apologize. I love the civil war, it is the most fascinating piece of all world history to me, love it, love it, love it. I want it preserved, good, bad all of it.


I dont dismiss any evidence as political correctness, only unsupported opinions that have been concluded on by pc sources. Those are easy to find and spot. If someone presents something and i respond with pc than call me out on it. When someone gives an opinion unsupported than i am fully in my right to try and convince them to broaden their scope of research to challenge that pc conclusion.



Often times the modern educations institutions themselves are the main preachers of pc. They often dont allow you to think, how to learn, they tell you what to think, what is learned. They give the pc version. I want to help people realize their is more history than we are told, more truth than what we are told.


I have no idea the group that started it. I saw it and supported it. I have no idea if it is a group or one guy, first time really on the site.


---------------
“The CSA congress can have no such power over states officers. The state governments are an essential part of the political system, upon the separate and independent sovereignty of the states the foundation of the confederacy”
-1864 Virginia supremeCourt

1stvermont
Vermont, VT, USA
top 50
E-4 Specialist


Posts: 82

Re: Petition to Designate All Civil War-Related Monuments as National Monum
Posted on: 9/4/2017 8:00:34 PM

Quote:
You can probably find it by visiting the Southern Poverty Law Center.
--OpanaPointer



I must say this is a great example of what pc thinking is based on to refer to the SPLC who i signed a petition for cnn to stop using them as a source. But i think we are getting well off topic here. Also notice the bias/built in assumptions. If you want civil war statue to not be removed, your a racists says a pc organization. they called all trump supporters [i am not] racists last year. they are a political organization.
---------------
“The CSA congress can have no such power over states officers. The state governments are an essential part of the political system, upon the separate and independent sovereignty of the states the foundation of the confederacy”
-1864 Virginia supremeCourt

scoucer
Berlin, Germany
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 1957

Re: Petition to Designate All Civil War-Related Monuments as National Monum
Posted on: 9/4/2017 8:16:01 PM
1st Vermont. What do you exactly mean by "pc version" ?. Its a rather vague concept.

Trevor
---------------
`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie

Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.

OpanaPointer
St. Louis, MO, USA
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant
Posts: 519

Re: Petition to Designate All Civil War-Related Monuments as National Monum
Posted on: 9/4/2017 8:20:45 PM
Ah, would you be so kind as to define "politically correct" for us? I've always thought it meant "I can't insult people anymore", but your definition would definitely be interesting to see.

OpanaPointer
St. Louis, MO, USA
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant
Posts: 519

Re: Petition to Designate All Civil War-Related Monuments as National Monum
Posted on: 9/4/2017 8:21:15 PM
Dupe.

OpanaPointer
St. Louis, MO, USA
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant
Posts: 519

Re: Petition to Designate All Civil War-Related Monuments as National Monum
Posted on: 9/4/2017 8:21:59 PM

Quote:
Which "you" did I quote with a copy and paste?


--John R. Price

Didn't see any quote marks.

1stvermont
Vermont, VT, USA
top 50
E-4 Specialist


Posts: 82

Re: Petition to Designate All Civil War-Related Monuments as National Monum
Posted on: 9/4/2017 8:58:40 PM

Quote:
1st Vermont. What do you exactly mean by "pc version" ?. Its a rather vague concept.

Trevor
--scoucer



broadly defined i think its the standard version of civil war history you will see in documentaries, newspapers, general public education and most collages, the winner writes the history.

-Lincoln is a demi god the best president we ever had, he saved the union and the Constitution. Lincoln was a abolitionist who wanted all men treated equal under the law. His main political focus was ending slavery.
-Thoes who sought secession were traitors illegally seceding from the union and attempting to destroy the Constitution.
-Slavery was universally evil in the worst way.
- the south left only to preserve slavery. states if they were an issue, was just to preserve slavery.
-the north were vitreous abolitionist who treated blacks equally.
- the south are racists evil slave owners all kinds of atrocities were committed by them
- our modern nation of america is a improvement over the union of the founders, we should be thankful for Lincolns transformation to better our country.


if you support the south you are racists. If you like the old union of the founders and states rights, its because your racists and want slavery.



that would be a quick general idea of it.



---------------
“The CSA congress can have no such power over states officers. The state governments are an essential part of the political system, upon the separate and independent sovereignty of the states the foundation of the confederacy”
-1864 Virginia supremeCourt

OpanaPointer
St. Louis, MO, USA
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant
Posts: 519

Re: Petition to Designate All Civil War-Related Monuments as National Monum
Posted on: 9/4/2017 9:08:37 PM
So, superficial study of history is bad. You've shown that to be true.

Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 2955

Re: Petition to Designate All Civil War-Related Monuments as National Monum
Posted on: 9/5/2017 2:30:57 PM

Quote:

Quote:
1st Vermont. What do you exactly mean by "pc version" ?. Its a rather vague concept.

Trevor
--scoucer



broadly defined i think its the standard version of civil war history you will see in documentaries, newspapers, general public education and most collages, the winner writes the history.

-Lincoln is a demi god the best president we ever had, he saved the union and the Constitution. Lincoln was a abolitionist who wanted all men treated equal under the law. His main political focus was ending slavery.
-Thoes who sought secession were traitors illegally seceding from the union and attempting to destroy the Constitution.
-Slavery was universally evil in the worst way.
- the south left only to preserve slavery. states if they were an issue, was just to preserve slavery.
-the north were vitreous abolitionist who treated blacks equally.
- the south are racists evil slave owners all kinds of atrocities were committed by them
- our modern nation of america is a improvement over the union of the founders, we should be thankful for Lincolns transformation to better our country.


if you support the south you are racists. If you like the old union of the founders and states rights, its because your racists and want slavery.



that would be a quick general idea of it.



--1stvermont



1st Vermont,

Just curious as to why 1st Vermont is your handle when you don't come across as supporting, Lincoln, the Union, or other things Union Soldiers are for???

just curious??
---------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

OpanaPointer
St. Louis, MO, USA
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant
Posts: 519

Re: Petition to Designate All Civil War-Related Monuments as National Monum
Posted on: 9/5/2017 2:33:21 PM
And why stop at "states" rights? Why not "county rights"? Or city-states like Athens? The reason, of course, is because some states still approved of slavery.

1stvermont
Vermont, VT, USA
top 50
E-4 Specialist


Posts: 82

Re: Petition to Designate All Civil War-Related Monuments as National Monum
Posted on: 9/5/2017 5:41:00 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:
1st Vermont. What do you exactly mean by "pc version" ?. Its a rather vague concept.

Trevor
--scoucer



broadly defined i think its the standard version of civil war history you will see in documentaries, newspapers, general public education and most collages, the winner writes the history.

-Lincoln is a demi god the best president we ever had, he saved the union and the Constitution. Lincoln was a abolitionist who wanted all men treated equal under the law. His main political focus was ending slavery.
-Thoes who sought secession were traitors illegally seceding from the union and attempting to destroy the Constitution.
-Slavery was universally evil in the worst way.
- the south left only to preserve slavery. states if they were an issue, was just to preserve slavery.
-the north were vitreous abolitionist who treated blacks equally.
- the south are racists evil slave owners all kinds of atrocities were committed by them
- our modern nation of america is a improvement over the union of the founders, we should be thankful for Lincolns transformation to better our country.


if you support the south you are racists. If you like the old union of the founders and states rights, its because your racists and want slavery.



that would be a quick general idea of it.



--1stvermont



1st Vermont,

Just curious as to why 1st Vermont is your handle when you don't come across as supporting, Lincoln, the Union, or other things Union Soldiers are for???

just curious??
--Michigan Dave




lol. I am from Vermont, live in vermont, so i just chose it as a name.
---------------
“The CSA congress can have no such power over states officers. The state governments are an essential part of the political system, upon the separate and independent sovereignty of the states the foundation of the confederacy”
-1864 Virginia supremeCourt

jthlmnn
Milwaukee, WI, USA
top 40
E-4 Corporal


Posts: 178

Re: Petition to Designate All Civil War-Related Monuments as National Monum
Posted on: 9/6/2017 3:01:46 PM

Quote:

Quote:
1st Vermont. What do you exactly mean by "pc version" ?. Its a rather vague concept.

Trevor
--scoucer



broadly defined i think its the standard version of civil war history you will see in documentaries, newspapers, general public education and most collages, the winner writes the history.

-Lincoln is a demi god the best president we ever had, he saved the union and the Constitution. Lincoln was a abolitionist who wanted all men treated equal under the law. His main political focus was ending slavery.
-Thoes who sought secession were traitors illegally seceding from the union and attempting to destroy the Constitution.
-Slavery was universally evil in the worst way.
- the south left only to preserve slavery. states if they were an issue, was just to preserve slavery.
-the north were vitreous abolitionist who treated blacks equally.
- the south are racists evil slave owners all kinds of atrocities were committed by them
- our modern nation of america is a improvement over the union of the founders, we should be thankful for Lincolns transformation to better our country.


if you support the south you are racists. If you like the old union of the founders and states rights, its because your racists and want slavery.



that would be a quick general idea of it.



--1stvermont


OK. Step-by-step.


Quote:
Lincoln is a demi-god

Well, he does have his groupies, and some overstate the case, but then, you are also overstating your case.


Quote:
the best president we ever had, he saved the union and the Constitution.

The first part is arguably true, the latter is totally accurate. The Union was preserved and the Constitution upheld. (No, there was no right to unilateral secession. If there was one, the slave states attempting to secede would have taken their cause to the Supreme Court- mostly southerners- and saved a lot of blood and treasure. The fact that they immediately chose to take their cause to the battlefield indicates that they knew they didn't have a legal leg to stand on.)


Quote:
Lincoln was an abolitionist who wanted all men treated equal under the law.

The former is an inaccurate description of Lincoln, I agree. He definitely opposed the expansion of slavery into the territories, but knew that only the individual slaveholding states themselves, or a Constitutional Amendment could overturn slavery where it existed, and neither was at all likely. The latter is definitely accurate by 1865, maybe earlier. It took him a while, but he got there.


Quote:
His main political focus was ending slavery.

Yes, it was. That's why he returned to politics in the 1850s, and why he ran for president in 1860. Preservation of the Union is a worthwhile priority in-and-of-itself, but it is also a prerequisite to limiting/ending slavery. (Can't free too many if most are in a different country.)


Quote:
Those who sought secession were traitors illegally seceding from the union and attempting to destroy the Constitution.
Well, yeah, they were. The "right to secession" was/is a legal fiction. There is no escape clause in the Constitution. The Union is perpetual. There are two ways to leave: with the consent of the other states, which would be legal, or by force of arms, which is illegal. No one asked the consent of the other states, and they failed with force of arms. De facto those who participated are traitors who attempted to destroy the Constitution.


Quote:
Slavery was universally evil in the worst way.

Your problem with this is what? Going back to the 1600s, there were people decrying slavery as immoral and evil. They were ignored. Why? Because there was money to be made. Religious justifications followed much later.


Quote:
the south left only to preserve slavery. states if they were an issue, was just to preserve slavery.

In the words of the people who were participating, at the time they were participating, even before they started the secession ball rolling, slavery was the issue. They said so, repeatedly, with vehemence and conviction, so I'll take their word for it.


Quote:
the north were vitreous abolitionist who treated blacks equally.

You'll have to clarify "vitreous" for me. My dictionary has it as like glass in appearance or physical properties.
As for the rest, that would have been what was taught several decades ago, but, to my experience, not anymore.


Quote:
the south are racists evil slave owners all kinds of atrocities were committed by them

While a small percentage of those in the slave holding states held title to slaves, if you add in their families (spouses and children, relatives living/working with them), people who rented slave services, those who were paid to ride slave patrols, etc. an overwhelming majority of the southern white population benefited from slavery. And, yes, all kinds of atrocities were committed: branding, whipping, rape, etc, and that's not even mentioning the psychological traumas. Some of these continued well after the war, into the 1960s, at least.


Quote:
our modern nation of America is a improvement over the union of the founders, we should be thankful for Lincolns transformation to better our country.

Hmmm, even though there is still a lot of work to do, we do a better job of living up to the words, "all men are created equal."
I can think of very few people who honestly believe that we would have been better off if the Confederacy had succeeded, or, conversely, if Lincoln had encouraged the prosecution/hanging of rebel leaders. The statement looks accurate to me, except that I would include the 2 million white and black men in uniform who did the heavy lifting of suppressing the rebellion. How, exactly, do you see us as having regressed from "the founders?"

Yours,

JohnT







1stvermont
Vermont, VT, USA
top 50
E-4 Specialist


Posts: 82

Re: Petition to Designate All Civil War-Related Monuments as National Monum
Posted on: 9/6/2017 5:30:42 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:
1st Vermont. What do you exactly mean by "pc version" ?. Its a rather vague concept.

Trevor
--scoucer



broadly defined i think its the standard version of civil war history you will see in documentaries, newspapers, general public education and most collages, the winner writes the history.

-Lincoln is a demi god the best president we ever had, he saved the union and the Constitution. Lincoln was a abolitionist who wanted all men treated equal under the law. His main political focus was ending slavery.
-Thoes who sought secession were traitors illegally seceding from the union and attempting to destroy the Constitution.
-Slavery was universally evil in the worst way.
- the south left only to preserve slavery. states if they were an issue, was just to preserve slavery.
-the north were vitreous abolitionist who treated blacks equally.
- the south are racists evil slave owners all kinds of atrocities were committed by them
- our modern nation of america is a improvement over the union of the founders, we should be thankful for Lincolns transformation to better our country.


if you support the south you are racists. If you like the old union of the founders and states rights, its because your racists and want slavery.



that would be a quick general idea of it.



--1stvermont


OK. Step-by-step.


Quote:
Lincoln is a demi-god

Well, he does have his groupies, and some overstate the case, but then, you are also overstating your case.


Quote:
the best president we ever had, he saved the union and the Constitution.

The first part is arguably true, the latter is totally accurate. The Union was preserved and the Constitution upheld. (No, there was no right to unilateral secession. If there was one, the slave states attempting to secede would have taken their cause to the Supreme Court- mostly southerners- and saved a lot of blood and treasure. The fact that they immediately chose to take their cause to the battlefield indicates that they knew they didn't have a legal leg to stand on.)


Quote:
Lincoln was an abolitionist who wanted all men treated equal under the law.

The former is an inaccurate description of Lincoln, I agree. He definitely opposed the expansion of slavery into the territories, but knew that only the individual slaveholding states themselves, or a Constitutional Amendment could overturn slavery where it existed, and neither was at all likely. The latter is definitely accurate by 1865, maybe earlier. It took him a while, but he got there.


Quote:
His main political focus was ending slavery.

Yes, it was. That's why he returned to politics in the 1850s, and why he ran for president in 1860. Preservation of the Union is a worthwhile priority in-and-of-itself, but it is also a prerequisite to limiting/ending slavery. (Can't free too many if most are in a different country.)


Quote:
Those who sought secession were traitors illegally seceding from the union and attempting to destroy the Constitution.
Well, yeah, they were. The "right to secession" was/is a legal fiction. There is no escape clause in the Constitution. The Union is perpetual. There are two ways to leave: with the consent of the other states, which would be legal, or by force of arms, which is illegal. No one asked the consent of the other states, and they failed with force of arms. De facto those who participated are traitors who attempted to destroy the Constitution.


Quote:
Slavery was universally evil in the worst way.

Your problem with this is what? Going back to the 1600s, there were people decrying slavery as immoral and evil. They were ignored. Why? Because there was money to be made. Religious justifications followed much later.


Quote:
the south left only to preserve slavery. states if they were an issue, was just to preserve slavery.

In the words of the people who were participating, at the time they were participating, even before they started the secession ball rolling, slavery was the issue. They said so, repeatedly, with vehemence and conviction, so I'll take their word for it.


Quote:
the north were vitreous abolitionist who treated blacks equally.

You'll have to clarify "vitreous" for me. My dictionary has it as like glass in appearance or physical properties.
As for the rest, that would have been what was taught several decades ago, but, to my experience, not anymore.


Quote:
the south are racists evil slave owners all kinds of atrocities were committed by them

While a small percentage of those in the slave holding states held title to slaves, if you add in their families (spouses and children, relatives living/working with them), people who rented slave services, those who were paid to ride slave patrols, etc. an overwhelming majority of the southern white population benefited from slavery. And, yes, all kinds of atrocities were committed: branding, whipping, rape, etc, and that's not even mentioning the psychological traumas. Some of these continued well after the war, into the 1960s, at least.


Quote:
our modern nation of America is a improvement over the union of the founders, we should be thankful for Lincolns transformation to better our country.

Hmmm, even though there is still a lot of work to do, we do a better job of living up to the words, "all men are created equal."
I can think of very few people who honestly believe that we would have been better off if the Confederacy had succeeded, or, conversely, if Lincoln had encouraged the prosecution/hanging of rebel leaders. The statement looks accurate to me, except that I would include the 2 million white and black men in uniform who did the heavy lifting of suppressing the rebellion. How, exactly, do you see us as having regressed from "the founders?"

Yours,

JohnT







--jthlmnn




Thanks for proving my point sir.
---------------
“The CSA congress can have no such power over states officers. The state governments are an essential part of the political system, upon the separate and independent sovereignty of the states the foundation of the confederacy”
-1864 Virginia supremeCourt

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5692

Re: Petition to Designate All Civil War-Related Monuments as National Monum
Posted on: 9/6/2017 7:35:44 PM

Quote:
Thanks for proving my point sir.
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You need to do better than that 1stvermont. That was a thoughtful response.

Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 2955

Re: Petition to Designate All Civil War-Related Monuments as National Monum
Posted on: 9/6/2017 7:49:55 PM
1stvermont appears to be a "comedian 1st"!
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

1stvermont
Vermont, VT, USA
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E-4 Specialist


Posts: 82

Re: Petition to Designate All Civil War-Related Monuments as National Monum
Posted on: 9/6/2017 8:06:38 PM

Quote:

Quote:
Thanks for proving my point sir.
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You need to do better than that 1stvermont. That was a thoughtful response.
--George



This thread is on a bill to keep civil war monuments. He helped my case by agreeing with the pc version and thus proving the point of my post. This was a win for me. This thread is not to debate those issues, it can however, be used to refer back to when threads on those topics are made. So as i said, its a win for me and proves the purpose of the post of mine he referred to. If your indeed interested in a response, hang around my freind for future threads about those issues.
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“The CSA congress can have no such power over states officers. The state governments are an essential part of the political system, upon the separate and independent sovereignty of the states the foundation of the confederacy”
-1864 Virginia supremeCourt

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
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E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5692

Re: Petition to Designate All Civil War-Related Monuments as National Monum
Posted on: 9/6/2017 8:46:00 PM
"A win for you" ??? Odd comment sir.

Most of us do not participate on this forum to tally victories. It's more of a learning experience.

So far you have not given a lot from which others may learn. You have provided extensive quotes that you contend prove that most scholarly treatments of the topics of slavery and the civil war and the reasons for the statues are false.

I don't really see but clearly you feel that you have trumped all other comments.

What did you expect to receive from your experience here?

Right now, I would suggest that your motives are suspect.

morris crumley
Lawrenceville, GA, USA
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 1291

Re: Petition to Designate All Civil War-Related Monuments as National Monum
Posted on: 9/7/2017 8:30:41 AM
One thing that is proven ....1stvermont has been respectful in posting his comments...and the usual suspects on this site, again, go right into disrespectful attacks on his motives, on him personally. This is not ANTIFA gentlemen, this is not some college campus where there is only one view or one side allowed.

If you wish to debate his concepts, his presentments, fine then...but get off the damn high-horse that is becoming so tiresome and pathetic.
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"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."

morris crumley
Lawrenceville, GA, USA
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E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 1291

Re: Petition to Designate All Civil War-Related Monuments as National Monum
Posted on: 9/7/2017 9:04:04 AM

Quote:
And why stop at "states" rights? Why not "county rights"? Or city-states like Athens? The reason, of course, is because some states still approved of slavery.
--OpanaPointer



I don`t think any cities, or counties were signers of our Declaration of Independence, or had authority to ratify our Constitution. The various legislative bodies of the Colonies...and then the State legislatures of the States that made up the Union of States authorized the signers to sign the Declaration...and voted to ratify the Constitution.
There was a secession movement among some North East states just 20 plus years after the ratification of the Constitution. The Southern States took it a step farther by actually doing it.

And today, there is secession talk in California, as well as talk of segregated dorms, segregated graduations, and days when whites should leave the campus entirely...led by black students, and it would seem, accepted by far too many school administrators .
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"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."

John R. Price
Wilkes-Barre, PA, USA
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E-8 Master Sergeant
Posts: 553

Re: Petition to Designate All Civil War-Related Monuments as National Monum
Posted on: 9/7/2017 1:18:21 PM
Didn't Athens join/form the Hellonic League? Didn't they join Confederations to fight common enemies at times? Didn't they have trade agreements with other government entities? To do so didn't they surrender some of their rights and freedoms to the higher governmental structure? Did it take a war to break those agreements and reclaim the rights and freedoms surrendered? I think you all forget one basic truth, government derives the right to govern from the consent of the people.

Edit No matter how you cut it the majority of the people in the states of the Confederacy no longer consented to be governed by the federal government. It doesn't matter what the cause or reasons the majority of the people took away their consent to be governed by the federal government.
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A battle long forgotten by our country in a war never understood by our country.
"to satisfy our endless needs and justify our bloody deeds, in the name of destiny and in the name of God"


morris crumley
Lawrenceville, GA, USA
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E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 1291

Re: Petition to Designate All Civil War-Related Monuments as National Monum
Posted on: 9/7/2017 6:40:11 PM
What`s rather ironic to me is that the first secession movement was in the North East..and it was the Federalists, the ones who wanted to give more power to the Federal authority in the first place decided they didn`t like the trade restrictions of the Jefferson and then Madison Democratic-Republicans...because it was "unfair" in their opinion, to them. They also didn`t like the idea of handing over their local militias to Federal control during the war of 1812...feeling that they were made more vulnerable-the Federal perhaps taking those militia out of the area where they provided stronger defense for them.

And this the region of the country that had benefited mightily from the slave trade for many decades. I mean, they were basically pissed off about many of the same things that the south would be 45 years later. The South was trying to preserve slavery...but their agrarian system of commerce was based upon that to a large degree. The trade policy of Jefferson and Madison was viewed by the Hartford Convention as being harmful to the type of business and commerce of the North. So, they discussed secession.

For those who argue that the matter of the right to secession was cut and dried....it most certainly was not.

One must accept that the Constitution that was ratified later, was "an Amendment" of The Articles of Confederation...the only amendment that I am aware of that amends something ...by totally changing it to something else.

Respects, Morris
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"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."

John R. Price
Wilkes-Barre, PA, USA
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant
Posts: 553

Re: Petition to Designate All Civil War-Related Monuments as National Monum
Posted on: 9/7/2017 8:34:59 PM
Morris,

Personally I think the "Amendment" is the Civil War and its results. Before it was "These" United States after if was "The" United States. If that change doesn't scream a change in the basic relationship between state and federal and a different interpretation of the Constitution then your head is buried in the sand if not someplace much worse.

The thing that gets me is when people point to Sumter and say the South knew secession was illegal or why fire on the fort. Or why prepare for war take the case to the courts of the United States. First if South Carolina or the newly formed Confederacy had wanted war as the deciding factor they would have fired on the fort much sooner. They waited until Lincoln after repeated warning not to attempt resupply sent a resupply mission. Second if you don't consider yourself part of the United States then the decisions of the courts of the United States aren't legally binding on you. Why not take it to the courts of the Confederacy and the United States have to legally accept their decision? Hell the judges were basically the same and the laws were basically the same
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A battle long forgotten by our country in a war never understood by our country.
"to satisfy our endless needs and justify our bloody deeds, in the name of destiny and in the name of God"


littlepowell
SC, USA
top 25
E-6 Staff Sergeant


Posts: 406
http://www.scourgeofwar.com/
Re: Petition to Designate All Civil War-Related Monuments as National Monum
Posted on: 9/8/2017 9:36:42 AM
This thread is proof of why the Civil War happened in the first place.. Even after 150+ years, heated discussions like this are still happening..
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http://www.scourgeofwar.com/ - Historical tactical combat games for PC.

morris crumley
Lawrenceville, GA, USA
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 1291

Re: Petition to Designate All Civil War-Related Monuments as National Monum
Posted on: 9/8/2017 10:25:38 AM
John, I would argue that the "civil war" was never a civil war. It was not two factions fighting to take control of the government...it was one faction trying to leave a confederation and have another country formed with it`s own government.

This sentiment is well documented by the countless letters from soldiers who, even after hostilities had been on-going for some time, still did not like the idea of invading the North.

The war did indeed impose the rule that the Union is "perpetual"...but it was done through coercion. The argument, even unto today, is that the Constitution was a change or "amendment" to the Articles of Confederation. It was, in fact, a do-over, not a mere amendment. The Articles were not struck down. They were not abolished. And yet the process for ratifying the new Constitution were different than those under the Articles of Confederation.

The term "perpetual Union" was written into the Articles..not our present Constitution. I am well aware of the fact that Jefferson had little to do with writing the Constitution, though many principles he had laid out in his Virginia statutes and writings were incorporated, but our Declaration Of Independence made it quite clear that our founding was done on the principle that it is the right and the duty of those who feel that their government no longer represents their interests...and ignores this realization..to separate themselves and form new government.

Of course, the argument can be made that Jefferson failed to realize the potential mess that was the French Revolution, where this faction rose to power and tried to kill off competing factions, only to be replaced by other factions who repeat the deadly process. ( something that is beginning to rear it`s ugly head in today`s USA.)

This "faction revolution" is bloody, and awful. Revolution must not be about competing factions taking control..but about higher ideals and principles. That was the shortcoming of The Confederate States Of America. Slavery was a sin. Portions of the North,(who actually perpetuated and made fortunes off of the trade,) and who no longer had an economy tied to it, became enlightened and wanted to end the practice that so many in the South had come to depend upon. Ultimately, the South was fighting to preserve their economic system...just as those Hartford Convention Northern States were willing to do in 1814...but slavery was not a righteous principle to fight for.

Respects, Morris
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"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."

John R. Price
Wilkes-Barre, PA, USA
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant
Posts: 553

Re: Petition to Designate All Civil War-Related Monuments as National Monum
Posted on: 9/8/2017 11:48:53 AM
Morris,

I agree slavery wasn't a righteous principle to fight for but an argument can be made that slavery was a pretext and not the principle. That in a larger sense the principle was the relationship between sate and federal and who was going to be supreme or the difference between "These" United States and "The" United States.
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A battle long forgotten by our country in a war never understood by our country.
"to satisfy our endless needs and justify our bloody deeds, in the name of destiny and in the name of God"


morris crumley
Lawrenceville, GA, USA
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 1291

Re: Petition to Designate All Civil War-Related Monuments as National Monum
Posted on: 9/8/2017 12:57:18 PM
John, I agree with what you say.

In essence, many on the Confederate side fought to preserve slavery, but many others fought for the principle of state sovereignty as a matter of duty. Likewise, many in the North fought to end slavery...but many more fought merely to preserve the notion of "perpetual union."

Many norther troops refused re-enlistment after the Emancipation proclamation turned the war to the purpose of abolition. Hell, even some abolitionists, like Oliver Wendell Holmes Jr., who began the war as the abolitionist son of abolitionists parents...wound up believing the cost not worth it.

I have always tried to fight back against the "black and white" (no pun intended) script about that war. It was far more complex than to just say one side had one position and the other side had one differing position.

And we complete that simplified "history' by now judging the generation that fought that war by the generational standards and norms of today. It`s what made me so furious that Gettysburg had invited Doris Kearns Goodwin to give the featured talk during the sesquicentennial, and she basically proclaims that the Union dead at Gettysburg were fighting for things like gay marriage. (I surmise that would be news to them. I doubt they were fighting for that.)

Respects, Morris
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"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."

jthlmnn
Milwaukee, WI, USA
top 40
E-4 Corporal


Posts: 178

Re: Petition to Designate All Civil War-Related Monuments as National Monum
Posted on: 9/8/2017 1:20:33 PM

Quote:
Morris,

Personally I think the "Amendment" is the Civil War and its results. Before it was "These" United States after if was "The" United States. If that change doesn't scream a change in the basic relationship between state and federal and a different interpretation of the Constitution then your head is buried in the sand if not someplace much worse.

The thing that gets me is when people point to Sumter and say the South knew secession was illegal or why fire on the fort. Or why prepare for war take the case to the courts of the United States. First if South Carolina or the newly formed Confederacy had wanted war as the deciding factor they would have fired on the fort much sooner. They waited until Lincoln after repeated warning not to attempt resupply sent a resupply mission. Second if you don't consider yourself part of the United States then the decisions of the courts of the United States aren't legally binding on you. Why not take it to the courts of the Confederacy and the United States have to legally accept their decision? Hell the judges were basically the same and the laws were basically the same
--John R. Price


Morris states that the issue of secession was not cut and dried. I would maintain that the right of unilateral secession was a legal fiction, but let's run with Morris's position, and John P's notion of whether the judgments of the federal courts/Supreme Court have any relevance.

The states attempting unilateral secession claimed that their action was a constitutionally protected right. Their difficulty was that the Constitution did not state as much, and provided no mechanism/procedure for a state to leave. If they had confidence in their legal position, however, and wanted to ensure a peaceful exit from the United States, there was a mechanism in the Constitution available to them: take it to the ultimate arbiter of what is/is not constitutional- the Supreme Court.

Consider the benefits such a victory would have provided to their cause. It would undermine popular support for any continued obstruction by the president or congress. It would also establish and clarify their legal standing with other nations, thus improving the likelihood of recognition.

John P asserts that
Quote:
"...if you don't consider yourself part of the United States then the decisions of the courts of the United States aren't legally binding on you."


There are two ways that a party to a compact can be legally released from its obligations (this was basic contract law of that era, as well as now): with the consent of the other parties, or by order of a court empowered to adjudicate any disputes regarding that compact. Simply saying, in effect, "You're not the boss of me" carries no legal weight: not for individuals, not for municipalities, and not for states. If that legal question was not settled by the Nullification Crisis of 1832-33, then it was certainly settled by Ableman v Booth, in 1859.

This now brings us to Fort Sumter. John P also posits that
Quote:
... "if South Carolina or the newly formed Confederacy had wanted war as the deciding factor they would have fired on the fort much sooner."


I believe that I have consistently held that the states attempting secession chose war, rather than wanted war. I believe the difference is important. In my opinion, they would have been perfectly happy if the other states had simply let them go. The inaction of the Buchanan administration gave them both the time to recruit other states to their cause, and the hope that they could garner a sufficient number as to convince the the remaining states to let them go. So long as this was the case, it served their purpose to not risk bloodshed. Time, however, would not be on their side forever.

After the rush of 7 states declaring secession from Dec. 20-Feb. 1 (less than a month and half), no other states followed suit. In March, North Carolina rejected secession. On April 4, an even heavier blow was landed on the movement when Virginia rejected secession. The example of Virginia, esteemed as she was for being the home of many founding fathers (especially George Washington & Thomas Jefferson) and several presidents, was bound to discourage other slave-holding states from joining in. On top of these setbacks was the fact that Buchanan was gone from the White House, and Lincoln was clear that he would oppose the attempts at secession.

Time now became the secessionist's enemy. The fervor of the original 6 weeks would inevitably cool down, if it hadn't already. People would have time to think over the whole proposition of secession with greater depth and clarity, or they might get frustrated with the inactivity and just say to hell with it.

For South Carolina, Fort Sumter in Charleston Harbor was a particular source of embarrassment and frustration. Unlike other installations in the deep south, it was not an easy target to seize, it was commanded by an officer who knew, and would carry out, his duty, and it was within reach of federal supplies and forces. The longer the fort remained in federal hands, in the very cradle of the movement, the more ineffectual the erstwhile confederacy would appear. This would also foster second thoughts about the whole endeavor.

It was at this point, early April of 1861, that Lincoln sent his message to Gov. Pickens that he was sending ships to resupply Fort Sumter with food. Pickens informed President Davis. On April 9, Davis and his cabinet faced three choices: 1) do nothing, 2) sink the ships carrying supplies, 3) assault the fort before the ships arrive. While none of these options was attractive to Davis & company, option #1 would avoid war. Options #2 and #3 guaranteed war. Option #2 had the drawback of bad publicity from sinking a ship full of food for very hungry soldiers. Option #3 could be painted as protecting honor and would give the appearance of strength and resolve. They chose #3.

In summary, by ignoring the two legal and peaceful means of resolving the issue (seeking/obtaining consent to leave, rather than just announcing their departure, and seeking affirmation of their claimed right by the body instituted to adjudicate such claims), seven states chose the only remaining option: war. Their original choice led, inevitably, to their final one.

Yours,

JohnT

Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 2955

Re: Petition to Designate All Civil War-Related Monuments as National Monum
Posted on: 9/8/2017 2:17:50 PM
John,

If they only had the ability to see the horror and the ultimate result, they would have chose option 1.

But as Morris says things are never simple,
MD
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

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