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 Naval WWII    
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James W.
Ballina, Australia
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant


Posts: 674

Re: Loss of HMS Hood in the Denmark Strait-24 May 1941
Posted on: 3/15/2017 12:02:13 AM
The poor bugger was, IMO, somewhat hidebound by the twin pressures of Nelson's traditional RN dictum & Churchill's demands - to engage tout suite,
& his fear of emulating the dreaded vulnerability of the veteran British battle-cruiser - to line battleship fire, as so cruelly exposed by Jutland a 1/4 century before...

Unfortunately, he did both, with the only good luck being that Prince of Wales did land a telling shot on Bismarck, & was not duly hunted down in turn, herself..

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 5959
http:// 82.44.47.99
Re: Loss of HMS Hood in the Denmark Strait-24 May 1941
Posted on: 3/15/2017 4:21:07 AM
Thanks James-I appreciate your sentiments-they are of course true-but why did he not use all the ships that he "should have had" at the end-did he harbour thoughts of glory of Hood sinking Bismarck-surely that possibility had disappeared with his destroyers.IMHO it was a fearful mess all round-entering a sea battle with only his A arcs open; and to crown it all POW was in the same line of of approach- hamstrung by Holland's orders.

Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 2771

Re: Loss of HMS Hood in the Denmark Strait-24 May 1941
Posted on: 3/15/2017 6:04:20 PM
More on HMS Hood, or whats left of her!

[Read More]

[Read More]
---------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

James W.
Ballina, Australia
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant


Posts: 674

Re: Loss of HMS Hood in the Denmark Strait-24 May 1941
Posted on: 3/16/2017 12:53:22 AM

Quote:
More on HMS Hood, or whats left of her!

[Read More]

[Read More]
--Michigan Dave


Well Dave, at least its likely that most of what's left will stay there, unlike the warship wreck/war graves in certain Asian waters..
..I wonder what the scrap value of the PoW's main armour belt is worth, $-wise?

I recall hearing that pre-atomic age steel of a large mass - was of particular value for certain scientific purposes...

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 5959
http:// 82.44.47.99
Re: Loss of HMS Hood in the Denmark Strait-24 May 1941
Posted on: 3/16/2017 4:24:44 AM
Whoa!! James-you missed a bit-unless of course you have no opinion to offer
see post above Michigan Dave's.

Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

James W.
Ballina, Australia
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant


Posts: 674

Re: Loss of HMS Hood in the Denmark Strait-24 May 1941
Posted on: 3/16/2017 5:40:10 AM
Hood's ship's bell aint in fact being raised for its scrap value, now, is it Jim..

Or did I miss that bit?

Her screws are/were likely worth a quid, though..

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 5959
http:// 82.44.47.99
Re: Loss of HMS Hood in the Denmark Strait-24 May 1941
Posted on: 3/16/2017 6:28:43 AM
No James -I meant the critique regarding Holland's handling of the episode.
I eould like to see what you thought.

Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

James W.
Ballina, Australia
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant


Posts: 674

Re: Loss of HMS Hood in the Denmark Strait-24 May 1941
Posted on: 3/16/2017 6:36:53 AM
Jim in reply to your post about Holland's tactics... I do wonder if you are tarring him a bit too black here..

He was likely under no illusions that he was very potentially 'on a hiding to nothing', with the archaic Hood & 1/2-baked P.o.W...
...let alone involving all the other vulnerable units...

AFAIR, Holland did try & 'cut to the chase' by shortening the predictably super-vulnerable zone of the Hood's deck armour to the 15" shells of Bismarck,
..even at the risk of reducing his own broadside power, a perhaps reasonable gamble - that sadly for Hood & company, didn't pan out..


anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 5959
http:// 82.44.47.99
Re: Loss of HMS Hood in the Denmark Strait-24 May 1941
Posted on: 3/16/2017 7:10:11 AM
Yes-it was a relatively flat trajectory 15" shell from Bismark; at a range of about 7.8 miles; which struck Hood abaft the funnels and set off X magazine which tore her in two.However I am still of the opinion that the two 8"cruisers plus the six fleet destroyers- could have made a difference to the final outcome.

Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

James W.
Ballina, Australia
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant


Posts: 674

Re: Loss of HMS Hood in the Denmark Strait-24 May 1941
Posted on: 3/16/2017 7:20:49 AM
Yes Jim, you could likely add their names to the 'Roll of Honour' list...

Bismarck in top fighting trim was no mere Graf Spee, just look what Warspite's 15" guns did to Italian 'heavy' cruisers, when she caught them..

& if Bismarck &/or Prinz Eugen had received more significant damage in dealing to the lesser RN units, likely they'd have returned to the Reich, forthwith..

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 5959
http:// 82.44.47.99
Re: Loss of HMS Hood in the Denmark Strait-24 May 1941
Posted on: 3/16/2017 7:48:12 AM
When Bismarck was finally caught by KGV and Rodney,they had Dorsetshire and Norfolk 8" gun HC, and five Tribal Class destroyers in support.The Tribals had alraady made a torpedo attack previously on their own.None of them were sunk.

Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

James W.
Ballina, Australia
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant


Posts: 674

Re: Loss of HMS Hood in the Denmark Strait-24 May 1941
Posted on: 3/16/2017 8:15:55 AM
Jim, Bismarck was in a seaway semi-disabled state by then, due to the air-launched torpedo hit on its steering/propulsion system... & crew fatigue...

The Tribal attack ( & these were very powerful destroyers, but most of them were eventually sunk) was done in the dark, but apart from harassment, did no material damage...


anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 5959
http:// 82.44.47.99
Re: Loss of HMS Hood in the Denmark Strait-24 May 1941
Posted on: 3/16/2017 8:30:29 AM
Seven of twenty seven Tribals were sunk in WW2-six RN and one RCN.Hard fought ships James.Isn't time you were in bed young man???

Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

Jim Cameron
North Bellmore, NY, USA
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant


Posts: 669

Re: Loss of HMS Hood in the Denmark Strait-24 May 1941
Posted on: 3/16/2017 8:13:33 PM
What does that have to do with their effectiveness (or lack thereof) against Bismarck?
---------------
Jim Cameron

Every time I go to Gettysburg, I learn two things. Something new, and, how much I still don't know.

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 5959
http:// 82.44.47.99
Re: Loss of HMS Hood in the Denmark Strait-24 May 1941
Posted on: 3/17/2017 4:03:28 AM
Absolutely everything -battleships always have destroyer support-however I was answering the previous poster's point-(is that OK??) that most of the Tribals were sunk- whereas twenty survived

Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

James W.
Ballina, Australia
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant


Posts: 674

Re: Loss of HMS Hood in the Denmark Strait-24 May 1941
Posted on: 3/17/2017 6:34:59 AM

Quote:
Absolutely everything -battleships always have destroyer support-however I was answering the previous poster's point-(is that OK??) that most of the Tribals were sunk- whereas twenty survived

Regards

Jim
--anemone


I suggest Jim, you'd best re-check the actual loss figures compared to the total of RN Tribals which were operational, once again,- most went under...

& esp' with regard to those of the fleet flotilla - who were in action against Bismarck..

You might also want to compare their Bismarck attack effectiveness versus the night action of RN destroyers against an IJN heavy cruiser in May `45..

A battleship is a much more formidable target...

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 5959
http:// 82.44.47.99
Re: Loss of HMS Hood in the Denmark Strait-24 May 1941
Posted on: 3/17/2017 7:06:38 AM
You weren't wrong James-must have been a bum site that I picked-13 were lost-mostly RN as you say.Anyway-very pleased to have had the opportunity to right a glaring wrong

[Read More]



Quote:
Haguro sunk-Kamikaze was also damaged, but escaped, returning the next day to rescue survivors. About 320 survived, but over 900 died, including the Japanese commanders, Vice-Admiral Hashimoto and Rear-Admiral Sugiura.

Saumarez's(flagship) main aerial and a funnel top had been shot away
and an 8 in (200 mm) shell nicked the forecastle. Two men were killed and three burned in the boiler room when a 5 in (130 mm) shell severed the main steam pipe. There was no damage to the remainder of the 26th Flotilla.

The 26th Destroyer Flotilla had fought the last major surface gun and torpedo action of World War II and carried out one of the finest sinkings of a heavy ship by destroyers alone. Lord Louis Mountbatten, himself a distinguished destroyer captain, gave the action his seal of approval when he described it in his Report to the Combined Chiefs of Staff (CCS) as 'an outstanding example of a night attack by destroyers.'


Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5313

Re: Loss of HMS Hood in the Denmark Strait-24 May 1941
Posted on: 3/17/2017 8:07:59 AM
I am not following the debate on Tribal Class destroyers. Are we discussing how many were destroyed during the war?

I think that that is pretty easy to determine.

But how were they employed during the chase of Bismarck? Was it protection of the big battle ships from attack? Were the Tribals supposed to harass Bismarck during the chase phase and if so, what did they do to complete the task?

The final sinking of Bismarck is usually described as a big ship action after the Bismarck was wounded from the air.

Did the Tribals lay down fire during the harassment phase and did they participate in the final kill at all?


BTW, there is one Tribal class left. HMCS Haida is moored as a floating museum in Hamilton harbour on Lake Ontario in Canada. She used to be situated at the Toronto harbour but a clever politician from Hamilton, the deputy PM Sheila Copps had her shifted along the shore to Hamilton.

Beautiful ship. About 4 hours from my home.




Cheers,

George

James W.
Ballina, Australia
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant


Posts: 674

Re: Loss of HMS Hood in the Denmark Strait-24 May 1941
Posted on: 3/17/2017 8:16:27 AM
She's still a beauty George, so credit due - to those who kept, & keep her..

The destroyers wisely kept out of the way at the final showdown, but did pick up some Bismarck survivors though, inc' Oskar, lucky/jinx - ships cat...


Lucky himself, but jinx for the ships he crewed... he was put ashore - after surviving the 3rd sinking...

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 5959
http:// 82.44.47.99
Re: Loss of HMS Hood in the Denmark Strait-24 May 1941
Posted on: 3/17/2017 8:30:03 AM

Quote:
Bismarck was the target of intermittent torpedo attacks by the Tribal-class destroyers HMS Cossack, Sikh, Maori and Zulu,(4) and the Polish destroyer ORP Piorun. Neither side scored a hit, but the constant harrying tactics of the British helped wear down the morale of the Germans and deepened the fatigue of an already exhausted crew.
Wikipedia

The sinking of the Bismarck was a big ship action-KGV 14"X 10 guns and Rodney
16"X9 guns,battered her to a standstill/Heavy cruiser Dorsetshire is alleged to have sunk her with torpedoes. Tribals were not in this final action-you ask why they particularly were there-it was to make opportune torpedo attacks on Bismarck-so WSC sent the best.

Regards

Jim


---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

Jim Cameron
North Bellmore, NY, USA
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant


Posts: 669

Re: Loss of HMS Hood in the Denmark Strait-24 May 1941
Posted on: 3/17/2017 2:10:39 PM
I think you have a typo on KGV' main guns. It should be 10 x 14".
---------------
Jim Cameron

Every time I go to Gettysburg, I learn two things. Something new, and, how much I still don't know.

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 5959
http:// 82.44.47.99
Re: Loss of HMS Hood in the Denmark Strait-24 May 1941
Posted on: 3/17/2017 2:42:39 PM
Thanks Jim -failing eyesight I fear-left eye down to 6/18 of normal .


Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 2771

Re: Loss of HMS Hood in the Denmark Strait-24 May 1941
Posted on: 3/25/2017 1:16:25 PM
Just like that, HMS Hood was gone!
---------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

 Naval WWII    
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