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The current time is: 11/19/2017 10:35:19 PM
 Naval WWII    
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anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 6041
http:// 82.44.47.99
Re: Was Bismarck's sinking inevitable ???
Posted on: 4/1/2017 3:41:37 AM
Bismarck was no pocket battleship Dave-she was probably the most powerful naval dreadnought in this part of the world-all 49,000 tons of her- armed with 8X15" guns in four turrets and heavily armoured.As Admiral Tovey said-she could not be sunk by gunfire.

Regards

Jim
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OpanaPointer
St. Louis, MO, USA
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant
Posts: 504

Re: Was Bismarck's sinking inevitable ???
Posted on: 4/1/2017 7:01:47 AM
She was the KM's Titanic, eh? Adm. Tovey's remark reminds me of Adm. Leahy's pronouncement on the atomic bomb before it was tested. "That thing will never work. I know because I'm an expert in explosives." (Slightly paraphrased, from memory.)

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 6041
http:// 82.44.47.99
Re: Was Bismarck's sinking inevitable ???
Posted on: 4/1/2017 7:24:46 AM
Thanks Opana for your usual pithy reply-but can you imagine the reaction of a Fleet Admiral being told to tow his 40,000 ton flagship back To base from mid Atlantic,infested with Uboats-the tower and the towed would undoubtedly have been lost. WSC was surrounded by toadies ans hangers on, who would do anything for him-I confess I have never rated him-he made far too many gaffes in his leadership. Tovey-a damn good admiral- was eventually removed from Home Fleet command to a Shore Based "bugger all to do job" and replaced by a Churchill favourite -Bruce Fraser.

Regards

JIM
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OpanaPointer
St. Louis, MO, USA
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant
Posts: 504

Re: Was Bismarck's sinking inevitable ???
Posted on: 4/1/2017 7:55:58 AM
The RN didn't have refueling-at-sea capabilities? Or did Tovey just not realize that Winnie was over-the-top because he wasn't at the scene of a very important and exciting battle?

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 6041
http:// 82.44.47.99
Re: Was Bismarck's sinking inevitable ???
Posted on: 4/1/2017 8:25:35 AM
It had been a very long chase; and the fuel tankers were all used up and sent home.The essence of the signal was that Tovey had to stay put- even if he had to tow the KGV home- which was quite ludicrous-to make matters worse the signal was sent an hour "after" Bismarck sank.

I have no doubt that because the coterie was sitting around on their backsides-things obviously got tense; but the Naval Chief- Admiral Dudley Pound should have dissuaded WSC not to send such a signal to his Fleet Admira-this deteriorating relationship between Churchill and Tovey which was further soured by Tovey's outspoken disagreement with the Russian convoy policy.

But despite the Prime Minister's annoyance at what he considered to be the Commander-in-Chief's obstructionist attitude, Tovey remained in his appointment for the full two and half years until he was relieved by Bruce Fraser and went as Commander-in-Chief, the Nore, in June 1943.

Regards


Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

OpanaPointer
St. Louis, MO, USA
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant
Posts: 504

Re: Was Bismarck's sinking inevitable ???
Posted on: 4/1/2017 8:39:05 AM
Sounds like very British high dudgeon to me.

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 6041
http:// 82.44.47.99
Re: Was Bismarck's sinking inevitable ???
Posted on: 4/1/2017 8:42:42 AM
I am not sure about "very" British-but high dudgeon -Yes. WSC just would not stand having a high ranking officer- who did not agree with his decisions-he preferred to have "Yes Men" around him.

Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

OpanaPointer
St. Louis, MO, USA
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant
Posts: 504

Re: Was Bismarck's sinking inevitable ???
Posted on: 4/1/2017 8:45:37 AM
The USN had the capability to share fuel, any ship could either take or supply fuel. RN couldn't do that? (Genuinely curious, not quibbling, btw.)

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 6041
http:// 82.44.47.99
Re: Was Bismarck's sinking inevitable ???
Posted on: 4/1/2017 9:00:12 AM
Moving on to the BPF-it's Fleet Train was likened to a tatterdermalion collection of tramp oilers- more like "a sutler's wagon train with camp followers".The USN did help out the RN's BPF enormously with replenishing their ships

The BPF Train is also described, but not in any good way: Tired, in-capable of looking after itself, wrong equipment, and so on.

1) re-fueling at sea: Not good. USN had perfected it, BPF took too long to do it, hoses got ruptured, etc

2) Refrigeration: Not good, 1/3 of the US capacity, which meant that they had to be replenished way too often

3) Fleet train a collection of whatever was at hand.Bring on the motley

Regards

Jim

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