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The current time is: 12/14/2017 11:39:21 PM
 Naval WWII    
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Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 2964

IJN makes to many mistakes at Midway!?
Posted on: 5/16/2017 1:31:26 PM
The IJN changed the number of Carriers attacking Midway from 9 to only 4. Just 1 of the many mistakes which proved disastrous in this turning point battle in the Pacific!

Check out this video, then comment??

[Read More]

What say you?
MD
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 2964

Re: IJN makes to many mistakes at Midway!?
Posted on: 5/17/2017 12:45:30 PM
The 3 major mistakes at Midway, IMHO were not using all their Carriers in the attack, not scrambling their communications, the US had broken their code, & not successfully scouting for the US Carriers!?

What say you?
Dave

BTW Do you think FDR really knew of the attack before hand??


---------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

Mike Johnson
Stafford, VA, USA
top 20
E-7 Sgt First Class


Posts: 495

Re: IJN makes to many mistakes at Midway!?
Posted on: 5/17/2017 10:15:49 PM
1. Shokaku and Zuikaku would have been valuable at Midway. None of the others would have been all that valuable, certainly not in a fleet carrier action. Without Coral Sea, the US would have had a fourth fleet carrier available, Lexington. Shoho would not have been used in the main carrier fleet and hadn't been so used at Coral Sea.

The Aleutians arguments don't hold much water. They were planned and approved before Midway for the similar reason of pushing out the frontier of the Japanese controlled maritime territory for the purpose of compelling a favor peace settlement. Neither Ryujo and particularly not Junyo would have been part of the fast carrier force. Ryujo never was part of the fast carrier fleet, even after Midway. Junyo would be as desperation. Junyo was a converted passenger liner with a brand new and poorly trained air group and air department. And she was too slow to make the timelines required by the Midway operation. Note, if the Aleutians were a deception as alleged, it was one of the worst in history. If the US fleet sortied from Pearl Harbor 0 to 12 hours after the attack on Dutch Harbor and headed for the Aleutians, it would have passed closer to Midway and brought those ships into the fight at Midway sooner than Japan planned--at least 6 hours sooner. Of course, they were already in the vicinity of Midway, something Japan did not expect.

2. Not sure what you mean by not scrambling their communications. There were both secure and nonsecure communications used on both sides. Major Japanese communications were coded and the cryptologists had only broken part of the code, leading to a lot of questions about the incoherent story they were trying to decipher. They knew little more than the header information--who the messages were addressed to by code names--code names that changed in November 1941 and May 1942.

3. Scouting operations used aircraft in a large fan. Only one of these aircraft (possibly two) would have had a chance to see the US carriers--the problem is that it was impossible to know which would find the carriers. It happened that the only one on the pattern that could have seen the US carriers, had a maintenance delay for an hour. Yes, it was a problem and shifted the planned flight profile in both time and location. There is is a fairly thoughtful article about a dozen years ago suggesting that this scout actually found the Yorktown earlier than it would have if it had flown on the original schedule. This is possible. The authors laid out the aircraft track and where it found the Yorktown. The track is drawn with the outbound track ending an hour earlier (about the same time it would have if it had flown out as planned) and thus according to the authors it found the Yorktown earlier than it would have had it flown the planned path. I have my doubts for a few reasons. First it passed the position at which Yorktown would be found at about 25-30 nmi to the south, a distance sufficient for large ships and their wakes to have been seen (if not obscured by clouds). At this same point in time, the Hornet's log describes a scout plane in the same position about 30 nmi south and part of the CAP was sent to engage it. The scout plane was not found. I think it likely that the scout hid in clouds and worked its way over to the inbound leg having possibly spotted a carrier. The orientation of the previous planned path would have brought the outbound leg closer to the US carriers and thus more likely to have detected the US carriers on the outbound leg. I think the delay did hurt the Japanese. But, I hardly count that as a mistake. Just what happens in war--unplanned but required maintenance that happened to have a key effect.

dt509er
Santa Rosa, CA, USA
top 20
E-7 Sgt First Class


Posts: 469

Re: IJN makes to many mistakes at Midway!?
Posted on: 6/4/2017 2:12:50 PM

Quote:
1. Shokaku and Zuikaku would have been valuable at Midway. None of the others would have been all that valuable, certainly not in a fleet carrier action. Without Coral Sea, the US would have had a fourth fleet carrier available, Lexington. Shoho would not have been used in the main carrier fleet and hadn't been so used at Coral Sea.

--Mike Johnson


The value of the two big carriers Shokaku and Zuikaku with the aircraft they would have brought to the battle IMO may have turned the fortunes of this battle to the side of the Japanese. This of course supposes that they too had survived the American attack. The Hiryu's attack alone on the American carrier Yorktown proved that Japanese attack pilots were highly skilled, add in another attack force or two from Shokaku and Zuikaku, US carriers Hornet and Enterprise may have felt the sting of those planes.

---------------
"American parachutists-devils in baggy pants..."

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Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 2964

Re: IJN makes to many mistakes at Midway!?
Posted on: 6/4/2017 2:45:10 PM
Here is some great fireworks from the battle!

[Read More]

a good USN moment,
MD
---------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

 Naval WWII    
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