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The current time is: 12/12/2017 3:37:18 AM
 Naval WWII    
AuthorMessage
Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 2955

How could such a formidable Kreigsmarine lose??
Posted on: 6/29/2017 7:27:04 PM
As you can see some awesome surface ships, and we know about the excellent U-Boat arm! So why did they lose??

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Perhaps virtually no Luftwaffe support! They needed their own Naval Air Arm!?

What else? What say you??
MD

BTW They had a great Naval Song!

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and a great U-Boat Commander!


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as they say know your enemy!
---------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5690

Re: How could such a formidable Kreigsmarine lose??
Posted on: 6/29/2017 8:44:09 PM
Other than the u-boat arm, how formidable was the surface fleet after the first two and a half years of the war?

Where did the big ship surface fleet go after the sinking of Bismarck? Up until that point, surface ships had been hunting everywhere.

I think only a couple of Kreigsmarine big ships were still afloat by the end of the war.

They had been destroyed by aircraft and by RN subs and by mines laid outside of ports where the big ships were. The Germans scuttled a few.

In one case, the RN destroyed the locks at St. Nazaire in a famous raid meaning that there was no safe haven in Europe for the battleship Tirpitz.

Midget subs eventually damaged her in port. Trondheim, Norway I think. Tirpitz wasn't sunk though until 1944.

The German surface fleet had not expanded sufficiently to be able to challenge the RN by 1939. Their Plan Z called for parity but the war started before they could match.

I think though that the existence of the big ships occupied a lot of the thinking of the RN and many assets were devoted to hunting down the German ships or pinning them in port.



As for the u-boats, they destroyed a lot of allied shipping as we know but technological advances and long range aircraft made the submarines vulnerable.

By late 1942, the allies began to kill u-boats. 87 boats lost and most of those in the last half of the year.

By 1943, the tied had turned. 243 u-boats lost in that year. 249 in 1944. 120 lost from Jan. 1945 to the end of the war. (source: U-boat.net)

Markus Becker
Westphalia, Germany
top 60
E-3 Private First Class


Posts: 44

Re: How could such a formidable Kreigsmarine lose??
Posted on: 6/30/2017 7:21:29 AM
Not even the U-boats were formidable when the war started.

AFAIK the KM had two dozen Type 7, a similar number of Type 2 costal subs and some big minelayers.

Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 2955

Re: How could such a formidable Kreigsmarine lose??
Posted on: 7/8/2017 7:47:46 AM
Hi Markus,

Things obviously got worse for the U Boats as the war progressed!?

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Except for the "Happy Time" at the beginning!
MD
---------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

Jim Cameron
North Bellmore, NY, USA
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant


Posts: 687

Re: How could such a formidable Kreigsmarine lose??
Posted on: 7/8/2017 12:38:25 PM
Heavy surface ship's such as the Bismarck were best operated as part of mutually supporting task forces. Alone, they get hunted down and destroyed.
---------------
Jim Cameron

Every time I go to Gettysburg, I learn two things. Something new, and, how much I still don't know.

MartinST81
Prague, Czech Republic
New User
E-2 Private


Posts: 3

Re: How could such a formidable Kreigsmarine lose??
Posted on: 8/15/2017 3:54:12 AM
In my opinion, Kriegsmarine was not as formidable as it seemed. In a long term, it could hardly face any of the "big guys", it means Royal Navy, US Navy and Imperial Japanese Navy. These were bigger and better. As mentioned above, Germans had to use their dreadnoughtd only as pirates, but how long they could stay against RN going after them? And to the U-boats: this fleet could not stay against the industrial might of the US in the later stages of the war. I do not have my books at hand to write the numbers but transport capacity and number of new destroyers build in the US alone was much higher than U-boat fleet could, even theoreticaly, handle. And another thing: German navy had difficult approach to the ocean in all stages of war. Even with French ports, the routes to the Atlantic were available to the allied naval search from the UK. Hitler was never a big fan of the navy and with fleet if such size, they had no chance to win the war at sea...
---------------
"One hawk chases away many crows" 313th RAF squadron (Czechoslovak) motto

Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 2955

Re: How could such a formidable Kreigsmarine lose??
Posted on: 8/15/2017 8:14:40 AM

Quote:
Heavy surface ship's such as the Bismarck were best operated as part of mutually supporting task forces. Alone, they get hunted down and destroyed.
--Jim Cameron




So Jim,

Why were large German Warships sent out virtually alone or in 2's ????
---------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

Lightning
Glasgow, UK
top 20
E-7 Sgt First Class


Posts: 459

Re: How could such a formidable Kreigsmarine lose??
Posted on: 8/15/2017 9:49:09 AM

Quote:
Why were large German Warships sent out virtually alone or in 2's ????
--Michigan Dave


One or two heavy capital ships could absolutely annihilate convoys, as the convoys seldom had the firepower to fend off the bigger classes of warship. The difficulty for the raiders was once they had done so (or once they had made sail to do so), every available Allied capital ship was then sent out to destroy them, which is pretty much what happened to Bismarck.

Nazi Germany should have stuck to building submarines.

Cheers,

Colin
---------------
"There is no course open to us but to fight it out. Every position must be held to the last man: there must be no retirement. With our backs to the wall and believing in the justice of our cause, each one of us must fight to the end."

Jim Cameron
North Bellmore, NY, USA
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant


Posts: 687

Re: How could such a formidable Kreigsmarine lose??
Posted on: 8/15/2017 12:52:11 PM

Quote:

Quote:
Heavy surface ship's such as the Bismarck were best operated as part of mutually supporting task forces. Alone, they get hunted down and destroyed.
--Jim Cameron




So Jim,

Why were large German Warships sent out virtually alone or in 2's ????
--Michigan Dave


Germany lacked the means to deploy task forces and supporting trains such as the U.S. Navy could. And once out of range of land based air support, there was no air cover. A couple of large ship's at a time, and perhaps a few destroyers, was about it.
---------------
Jim Cameron

Every time I go to Gettysburg, I learn two things. Something new, and, how much I still don't know.

Jim Cameron
North Bellmore, NY, USA
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant


Posts: 687

Re: How could such a formidable Kreigsmarine lose??
Posted on: 8/15/2017 12:57:48 PM

Quote:

Quote:
Why were large German Warships sent out virtually alone or in 2's ????
--Michigan Dave


One or two heavy capital ships could absolutely annihilate convoys, as the convoys seldom had the firepower to fend off the bigger classes of warship. The difficulty for the raiders was once they had done so (or once they had made sail to do so), every available Allied capital ship was then sent out to destroy them, which is pretty much what happened to Bismarck.

Nazi Germany should have stuck to building submarines.

Cheers,

Colin
--Lightning


Also, surface units faced much the same problem as submarines, where convoys were concerned. A convoy was not a large target. And while searching for it, heavy surface units were much more vulnerable to detection by air cover than a submarine.
---------------
Jim Cameron

Every time I go to Gettysburg, I learn two things. Something new, and, how much I still don't know.

 Naval WWII    
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