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anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
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The Wind that shakes The Barley-2006 Film
Posted on: 4/20/2017 1:36:10 PM
An excellent film which starkly outlines a tragic period of Irish history. Anyone wanting to understand the modern day troubles in Ireland MUST see this film to get a better understanding of WHY Ireland is so troubled.

I was thoroughly engrossed in this film and there was hardly a dry eye in the house by the end-it was so heart wrenching.The brutality of the Black and Tans was shockingly sickening. It shows how easily communities, indeed families, were torn apart by divisions about the best way forward to achieve Irish freedom and how desperate the people were at that time.

This is a film which IMO should have been made years ago and should be viewed with an open mind by those who are not from a nationalist background. These events did occur; and the time for denial has long past.

Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

kaii
Edinburgh, UK
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major


Posts: 1884

Re: The Wind that shakes The Barley-2006 Film
Posted on: 4/21/2017 2:27:16 PM

Quote:
An excellent film which starkly outlines a tragic period of Irish history. Anyone wanting to understand the modern day troubles in Ireland MUST see this film to get a better understanding of WHY Ireland is so troubled.

I was thoroughly engrossed in this film and there was hardly a dry eye in the house by the end-it was so heart wrenching.The brutality of the Black and Tans was shockingly sickening. It shows how easily communities, indeed families, were torn apart by divisions about the best way forward to achieve Irish freedom and how desperate the people were at that time.

This is a film which IMO should have been made years ago and should be viewed with an open mind by those who are not from a nationalist background. These events did occur; and the time for denial has long past.

Regards

Jim
--anemone


I agree Jim, a great film. Not sure "enjoyed" is quite the correct word I am looking for, but I did find the film a good watch.

K
---------------
A fool and his money are soon elected.

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 5963
http:// 82.44.47.99
Re: The Wind that shakes The Barley-2006 Film
Posted on: 4/21/2017 3:11:38 PM
I think I used the word engrossed"kaii; but hey no worries and thank you fot your post.Excellent portrayal of history

Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

wazza
Sydney , Australia
top 25
E-6 Staff Sergeant
Posts: 343

Re: The Wind that shakes The Barley-2006 Film
Posted on: 4/21/2017 7:36:00 PM
I enjoyed it. Black and Tans were all ex servicemen that basically were recruited because they couldn't adjust to civvie life after the war, and had a hatred of the Irish?

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 5963
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Re: The Wind that shakes The Barley-2006 Film
Posted on: 4/22/2017 5:18:18 AM

Quote:
I enjoyed it. Black and Tans were all ex servicemen that basically were recruited because they couldn't adjust to civvie life after the war, and had a hatred of the Irish?
--wazza


wazza-was hatred of the Irish a man's "ticket of entry" into the infamous Black and Tans unit???.I ask only because you have stated as much.

Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

SJ
Belfast N Ireland, UK
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 697

Re: The Wind that shakes The Barley-2006 Film
Posted on: 4/22/2017 10:16:08 AM

Quote:

Quote:
I enjoyed it. Black and Tans were all ex servicemen that basically were recruited because they couldn't adjust to civvie life after the war, and had a hatred of the Irish?
--wazza


wazza-was hatred of the Irish a man's "ticket of entry" into the infamous Black and Tans unit???.I ask only because you have stated as much.

Regards

Jim

--anemone


Not good history.

1. Ex British soldiers also joined the IRA in large numbers. They provided a lot of the leadership- Commandant Tom Barry is a good example. Don't forget that the 16th Division was raised from the nationalist Irish Vols. They fought for England in the war but remained Irish nationalists.

2. Many of the RICs Special Reserve and Auxiliaries had seen a lot of death on the Western Front. Life was cheap. Both sides brutalised by killing on an industrial scale. The Brits who joined the B&T and the Auxies were more likely to be motivated by the need to earn a living wage, as unemployment was high after WW1, as opposed to any hatred of the Irish.


3. The barbarism and acts of atrocity did not stop with the Treaty. The Civil War is not taught or talked about. I recall raising it as a student at a conference in UCD, to be told that it was "inappropriate". Imagine that applied to the ACW ! The Free State/Republic of Ireland existed in a state of collective amnesia right up until about a decade ago. Can anyone figure out why this would be the case ??????

4. If you want a flavour of what happened and is not talked about google "Ballyseedy"- or the 40,000 Protestants subject to ethnic cleansing. The early Free State was much more draconian than the Brits ever were.

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
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E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 5963
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Re: The Wind that shakes The Barley-2006 Film
Posted on: 4/22/2017 11:14:23 AM

Quote:
The Free State/Republic of Ireland existed in a state of collective amnesia right up until about a decade ago. Can anyone figure out why this would be the case ??????


Unlike the Jews and the Holocaust-the indigenous populace of the Republic would nave had many reasons, including hurt and shame; for wanting this dreadful episode-dead and buried.


Quote:
If you want a flavour of what happened and is not talked about google "Ballyseedy"- or the 40,000 Protestants subject to ethnic cleansing. The early Free State was much more draconian than the Brits ever were.



Quote:
The outrages were committed following the deaths of Captains Michael Dunne and Joseph Stapleton of Dublin Brigade, who were killed, along with three other Free State soldiers, in Knocknagoshel, Co Kerry, by a booby trap mine on Mar 6, 1923. Free State troops retaliated with a fury in the following days.

Nine Republican prisoners were taken from Ballymullen Barracks, Tralee, the following day. Capt Ned Breslin, the officer in charge of the Free State detail, offered each of the prisoners a cigarette, saying it would be “the last you’ll have”. He told them they going to be blown with a mine, the way the soldiers had been killed at Knocknagoshel.

At Ballyseedy Cross, the prisoners were tied together around a pile of stones in which a mine had been placed earlier. They apparently thought the soldiers really wanted them to make a break so that they could shoot them “trying to escape”.


[Read More]

Regards

Jim
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SJ
Belfast N Ireland, UK
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 697

Re: The Wind that shakes The Barley-2006 Film
Posted on: 4/22/2017 11:28:54 AM

Quote:

Quote:
The Free State/Republic of Ireland existed in a state of collective amnesia right up until about a decade ago. Can anyone figure out why this would be the case ??????


Unlike the Jews and the Holocaust-the indigenous populace of the Republic would nave had many reasons for wanting this dreadful episode-dead and buried.


The outrages were committed following the deaths of Captains Michael Dunne and Joseph Stapleton of Dublin Brigade, who were killed, along with three other Free State soldiers, in Knocknagoshel, Co Kerry, by a booby trap mine on Mar 6, 1923. Free State troops retaliated with a fury in the following days.

Nine Republican prisoners were taken from Ballymullen Barracks, Tralee, the following day. Capt Ned Breslin, the officer in charge of the Free State detail, offered each of the prisoners a cigarette, saying it would be “the last you’ll have”.

Jim
--anemone


The Pro and Anti Treaty forces morphed into political parties - Fine Gael and Fianna Fa'il
Together they had to sit in the Dail (Irish Parliament) and govern Ireland.
To remember, commorated or even talk about the past would have reopened old wounds.
So it was - and still is, to a certain extent - airbrushed from Modern Irish History.
Captain Ned Breslin got away with a war crime. Some put the death toll at around 3,000 (can't be confirmed because of free emigration to the UK) - this was almost twice the number killed in the Tan war against the Brits.

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 5963
http:// 82.44.47.99
Re: The Wind that shakes The Barley-2006 Film
Posted on: 4/22/2017 11:40:22 AM
A truly hideous episode SJ-as you say airbrushed from history as another ugly chapter of the Emerald Isle- to be added to the rest.

My sincere thanks for you interest and your depth of knowledge.

Regards

Jim

---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

SJ
Belfast N Ireland, UK
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 697

Re: The Wind that shakes The Barley-2006 Film
Posted on: 4/22/2017 12:24:31 PM
And yet there are positive lessons to be gleaned. When a conflict is over you sometimes must bury the past. Make peace with former enemies.

I sit down with former IRA terrorists and help deliver reconciliation projects, that challenge sectarianism and bigotry. We campaign for social justice together. Pity our elected politicians could not do likewise. They use the past for political point scoring.

It is my opinion - in the post Troubles era - that we draw a line and move on, for our children's sake.

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 5963
http:// 82.44.47.99
Re: The Wind that shakes The Barley-2006 Film
Posted on: 4/22/2017 1:33:17 PM

Quote:
And yet there are positive lessons to be gleaned. When a conflict is over you sometimes must bury the past. Make peace with former enemies.


Burying the past is of course is "easier said than done"-particularly when dealing with those who's very existence is linked irrevocably with the past
and making peace with former enemies a Herculean task at any time.

I appreciate the word "must" in this process of "burying the past"; but impressing this concept on the "hardliners" must demand a bottomless pit of patience and willpower.

Regards

jim
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wazza
Sydney , Australia
top 25
E-6 Staff Sergeant
Posts: 343

Re: The Wind that shakes The Barley-2006 Film
Posted on: 4/22/2017 5:53:20 PM
I may have formed my opinion of the Black and Tan recruitment from online discussions, because a quick search of YouTube hasn't provided any info for me.
I guess I put their zealous brutality towards the Irish down to how they are portrayed in various films etc.
Wasn't aware that Brits joined the cause! That's a new one to me.
Regards

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
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Posts: 5963
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Re: The Wind that shakes The Barley-2006 Film
Posted on: 4/23/2017 3:34:35 AM
The whole plan was orchestrated by the British Government wazza-the establishment of an Intelligence Agency backed by the heavy mob- the Black and Tans.Control by threat and terror-hence today's slowly diminishing ill feeling towards the British.

Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

SJ
Belfast N Ireland, UK
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 697

Re: The Wind that shakes The Barley-2006 Film
Posted on: 4/23/2017 5:11:58 AM
The RIC Special Constables (Black & Tans) were very much a blunt instrument. They had had enough of bull and discipline on the Western Front. They were insolent to authority, and alcohol abuse was a problem.

This lack of discipline led to a lot of the brutality and their being out of control. They had been on a killing spree called WW1 and were trigger happy. Put it bluntly, they were indiscriminate on who they shot when they went out drink fuelled rampages. Winning the hearts & minds of the Irish people was not part of their agenda.

The IRA did enough to convince the British government that they could not be defeated - and public opinion in Britain/the Free World would not have tolerated draconian measures that the Brits could employ say in India. It is possible to argue that if the Brits had been as ruthless as the Free State forces in putting down the Anti Treaty republicans, then they could have vanquished the IRA.

The Brits however, threated the republicans with all out war, and Collins & Co agreed to the treaty. It cost him his life.

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
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Re: The Wind that shakes The Barley-2006 Film
Posted on: 4/23/2017 5:38:13 AM
I totally agree SJ the British Government was quite incapable of gauging Irish reaction; and like you say thought they were dealing with the natives of India-it was unfortunately a sign of the times-the men in power were old and steeped in imperialism-quite blind to anything else.None of them came to Ireland.

In the first half of 1922 an undeclared war was under way in Northern Ireland and in Nationalist eyes the CIGS General Sir Henry Wilson was blamed for the Constabulary’s stance in the sectarian violence, Michael Collins calling him “a violent Orange partisan”.

On 22 June 1922, two London-based volunteers of the Irish Republican Army, Reginald Dunne and Joseph O'Sullivan, assassinated Wilson outside his house at 36 Eaton Place at approximately 2:20 pm. He was in full uniform as he was returning from unveiling the Great Eastern Railway War Memorial at Liverpool Street station at 1:00 pm. He had six wounds, two of them fatal wounds to the chest.

Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

SJ
Belfast N Ireland, UK
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 697

Re: The Wind that shakes The Barley-2006 Film
Posted on: 4/23/2017 7:18:28 AM
One must add that the Irish Free State government had leverage in controlling the rebels that the British lacked.

They simply got the Roman Catholic church to threaten to excommunicate any IRA rebels who opposed them.

In return the Catholic church had a major say in how the fledgling Irish state was governed.
The were given a free rein in delivering education and welfare.

Contraception was forbidden in this Catholic theocracy, and unmarried mothers were brutally treated by nuns as slave labour(the Magdalene Sisters movie tells a sanitised version) We are still recovering the bodies of illegitimate babies unceremoniously dumped in mass graves. The latest was just uncovered at the Bon Secours Order in Tuam where up to 800 bodies of 35 week foetal babies to three year old children were discovered in March 2017.

This descent into a brutal Catholic theocracy only stiffed Protestant resolve in the northern six counties. It vindicated Sir Edward Carson's claim that Home Rule= Rome Rule, and prompted the new Northern Ireland to reciprocate as a "Protestant state for a Protestant people".

Northern Ireland became a cold house for Roman Catholics, which in turn led to continued support for the IRA.

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
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Posts: 5963
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Re: The Wind that shakes The Barley-2006 Film
Posted on: 4/23/2017 8:40:11 AM
Indeed so SJ-much water, and not all clean; has flowed under the Catholic bridge and as a result without a popular base of support, in practice Catholicism is likely to be marginalised increasingly as the institution finds itself appealing onto to a smaller minority of the population.

That in turn will fatally undermine its political clout, as less of the next generation of politicians will be members of its faithful.

In the past even non-religious politicians were willing to pretend to be "good Catholics" and take seriously Catholic Church demands in case they were attacked and undermined by the majority of Irish people who were not merely born Catholic but active Catholics.

Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

kaii
Edinburgh, UK
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major


Posts: 1884

Re: The Wind that shakes The Barley-2006 Film
Posted on: 4/23/2017 2:20:00 PM

Quote:
One must add that the Irish Free State government had leverage in controlling the rebels that the British lacked.

They simply got the Roman Catholic church to threaten to excommunicate any IRA rebels who opposed them.

In return the Catholic church had a major say in how the fledgling Irish state was governed.
The were given a free rein in delivering education and welfare.

Contraception was forbidden in this Catholic theocracy, and unmarried mothers were brutally treated by nuns as slave labour(the Magdalene Sisters movie tells a sanitised version) We are still recovering the bodies of illegitimate babies unceremoniously dumped in mass graves. The latest was just uncovered at the Bon Secours Order in Tuam where up to 800 bodies of 35 week foetal babies to three year old children were discovered in March 2017.

This descent into a brutal Catholic theocracy only stiffed Protestant resolve in the northern six counties. It vindicated Sir Edward Carson's claim that Home Rule= Rome Rule, and prompted the new Northern Ireland to reciprocate as a "Protestant state for a Protestant people".

Northern Ireland became a cold house for Roman Catholics, which in turn led to continued support for the IRA.
--SJ


Thanks for adding flesh on the bones here SJ. All these things are critical for understanding the situation in Northern Ireland.

K
---------------
A fool and his money are soon elected.

SJ
Belfast N Ireland, UK
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 697

Re: The Wind that shakes The Barley-2006 Film
Posted on: 4/24/2017 3:11:39 AM
Cheers Kaii - it helps appreciate how deep rooted the Irish Troubles are, and the entrenched zero sum game that makes reconciliation and conflict resolution so difficult.

jon zelazny
Los Angeles, CA, USA
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Posts: 72
http://jonzelazny.com
Re: The Wind that shakes The Barley-2006 Film
Posted on: 4/24/2017 3:34:23 AM
My thanks to everyone commenting. Always loved the film, but all the background/context/reflection you bring to it is fascinating.
---------------
Z

wazza
Sydney , Australia
top 25
E-6 Staff Sergeant
Posts: 343

Re: The Wind that shakes The Barley-2006 Film
Posted on: 4/26/2017 3:16:37 AM
Fascinating and slightly horrifying!

SJ
Belfast N Ireland, UK
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 697

Re: The Wind that shakes The Barley-2006 Film
Posted on: 4/26/2017 11:56:43 AM

Quote:
Fascinating and slightly horrifying!
--wazza


Yes, all civil wars that I have first hand experience of, tend to be horrifying and dirty.

mick
Belfast, Ireland
top 50
E-4 Specialist


Posts: 79

Re: The Wind that shakes The Barley-2006 Film
Posted on: 4/30/2017 1:15:44 AM
I enjoyed this movie but what gets me annoyed is when they make movies/TV programmes about this period of Irish history they hardly ever mention
the sectarian conflict in the North that was to become Northern Ireland
---------------
Sir,I'll have you know I cannot be bought and I cannot be threatened,but you put the two together and I'm your man.

SJ
Belfast N Ireland, UK
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 697

Re: The Wind that shakes The Barley-2006 Film
Posted on: 4/30/2017 1:40:55 AM

Quote:
I enjoyed this movie but what gets me annoyed is when they make movies/TV programmes about this period of Irish history they hardly ever mention
the sectarian conflict in the North that was to become Northern Ireland
--mick


Good point Mick - its again not a pretty story. Prods and Catholics killing each other don't make good story lines. And Belfast had a history of sectarian bitterness that goes way back to the 1820s and the first interface around the Pound area. 1886 also saw riots with 30 dead.


On line are the interviews with the early northern IRA and their abortive campaign against the RUC/USC. I will dig you the link if you are interested.



mick
Belfast, Ireland
top 50
E-4 Specialist


Posts: 79

Re: The Wind that shakes The Barley-2006 Film
Posted on: 4/30/2017 3:29:01 AM
Hi SJ,
Yes I am very interested in the'Troubles' of the early 20's.
There was over 500 people killed in Northern Ireland then most in Belfast in only two years or so,I am surprised a lot of people dont know anything about it.I used to read local history magazines by The Glenravel History Project that talked about the likes of the McMahon Family murders,the gun battles in Belfast,sectarian riots and of course Inspector Nixon and the infamous 'Cromwell Club'
---------------
Sir,I'll have you know I cannot be bought and I cannot be threatened,but you put the two together and I'm your man.

SJ
Belfast N Ireland, UK
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 697

Re: The Wind that shakes The Barley-2006 Film
Posted on: 4/30/2017 4:50:31 AM

Quote:
Hi SJ,
Yes I am very interested in the'Troubles' of the early 20's.
There was over 500 people killed in Northern Ireland then most in Belfast in only two years or so,I am surprised a lot of people dont know anything about it.I used to read local history magazines by The Glenravel History Project that talked about the likes of the McMahon Family murders,the gun battles in Belfast,sectarian riots and of course Inspector Nixon and the infamous 'Cromwell Club'
--mick


Nixon'x old house is on your right when you come down Crumlin Rd, just past Ballysillan Pk.

About the same time you had the sectarian killing of Protestants in West Cork. An eye for an eye left everybody blind.


Now - www.bureauofmilitaryhistory.ie/reels/bmh/BMH.WS0609.pdf . What a unique record this, and full marks for the Irish Army in the 1950s for collating it.

My old friend Dr Anthony McIntyre tried to create a similar record of the Troubles with Boston College. Ofcourse you know what happened there.

Lightning
Glasgow, UK
top 20
E-7 Sgt First Class


Posts: 442

Re: The Wind that shakes The Barley-2006 Film
Posted on: 5/2/2017 12:17:47 PM
My great-grandfather was a Black & Tan, mainly because he had numerous children to feed and there was no work at home. Ireland would have had a better time of it had Lloyd-George et al made good on their promises of "homes fit for heroes". My great-grandfather certainly didn't fight at the Somme to earn the right to terrorise Irish civilians. I suspect there many like him amongst the B&T ranks.

"The Wind That Shakes the Barley" makes a decent stab at a balanced view of the conflict, however.

Cheers,

Colin
---------------
"There is no course open to us but to fight it out. Every position must be held to the last man: there must be no retirement. With our backs to the wall and believing in the justice of our cause, each one of us must fight to the end."

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 5963
http:// 82.44.47.99
Re: The Wind that shakes The Barley-2006 Film
Posted on: 5/2/2017 12:51:15 PM
Thanks for the link SJ


[Read More]

Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

SJ
Belfast N Ireland, UK
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 697

Re: The Wind that shakes The Barley-2006 Film
Posted on: 5/3/2017 7:44:45 AM

Quote:
My great-grandfather was a Black & Tan, mainly because he had numerous children to feed and there was no work at home. Ireland would have had a better time of it had Lloyd-George et al made good on their promises of "homes fit for heroes". My great-grandfather certainly didn't fight at the Somme to earn the right to terrorise Irish civilians. I suspect there many like him amongst the B&T ranks.

"The Wind That Shakes the Barley" makes a decent stab at a balanced view of the conflict, however.

Cheers,

Colin
--Lightning
#

Thanks for sharing Colin. This supports what I have argued above. Indeed in my research into the British Battalion of the International Brigade in Spain 1937-39 I have found a few former Black & Tans, now comrades with former IRA men in the Connolly Column.

You could not make it up.

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