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anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 6103
http:// 82.44.47.99
The Patriot--2000 American War of Independence Film
Posted on: 6/23/2017 3:33:13 AM
Another Gibson movie-was my first thought, by which I mean most likely 'historically inaccurate' which is a pity as I think that some Americans who may perceive it as an accurate portrayal of their history- which is most unfortunate IMO.

(my second thought was 'Hollywood'!!) which is bad enough but Gibson should know better- so why does he make these sorts of inaccurate films? Money of course. Ham it up & the dumb punters will flock in with it by the barrow load. Thank goodness there are people around on sites like this to put the record straight.

HOWEVER it is a dramatic film; but should be shown with warnings about the inaccuracies. The filming and costumes and the whole production is excellent; but as I say, as others have, spoiled by the overly anti-British tenor-Gibson being an Anglophobe.

Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

SJ
Belfast N Ireland, UK
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 697

Re: The Patriot--2000 American War of Independence Film
Posted on: 6/23/2017 4:25:44 AM
I would argue Jim, that Gibson's reluctant rebel captures succinctly how the British ( English aristocratic ruling class) managed to alienate many colonists and drive them into rebellion.

Two demographics in particular were vunerable. The New England (English) - many of whom were Parliamentarian- and fled after the Restoration. And the Pennsylvanian & Carolina Scotch Irish Presbyterians who had fled Ulster to escape the Test Act and the famine of the 1730s (not to be confused with the Great Famine).

As reflected in the movie, many of these men were vets of the French/Indian wars on the frontier.

When lecturing in the States in 2008, I had the opportunity to visit Kings Mountain/Sycamore Shoals area where the Scotch Irish Overmountain men won their great victory over Loyalist militias on Oct 7, 1780. One such Ulsterman was John Crockett of Tyrone Huguenot-Scotch linage. He had a boy called Davie who was to die at the Alamo.




anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 6103
http:// 82.44.47.99
Re: The Patriot--2000 American War of Independence Film
Posted on: 6/23/2017 5:33:05 AM
Many thanks SJ- for your interest and input.I must confess That I did expect a pro/con reaction.I did find the movie entertaining; but was surprised that Cornwallis's Army contained a psychopathic Colonel of Dragoon Guards-then again- I realised that the lead (Gibson) had to have a "hated adversary" For me the movie was skewed in Gibson's favour and to hell with history.

Fact
Cornwallis successfully led troops that gained a measure of control and influence in South Carolina before heading into North Carolina.

There, despite successes like his victory at the Battle of Camden, which burnished his reputation, wings of his army were decisively defeated at Kings Mountain and Cowpens.

After a Pyrrhic victory at Greensboro, North Carolina, Cornwallis moved his battered army to Wilmington to rest and resupply

Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

BWilson

top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 3548

Re: The Patriot--2000 American War of Independence Film
Posted on: 6/23/2017 6:23:49 AM
 I would have preferred that Gibson made a film more grounded in history. There are few films of that war in any case. A historical film about Francis Marion would be much more interesting IMO.

Cheers

BW
---------------
With occasional, fatigued glances at life's rear-view mirror from the other side of time.

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5732

Re: The Patriot--2000 American War of Independence Film
Posted on: 6/23/2017 6:46:02 AM

Quote:
I would argue Jim, that Gibson's reluctant rebel captures succinctly how the British ( English aristocratic ruling class) managed to alienate many colonists and drive them into rebellion.

Two demographics in particular were vunerable. The New England (English) - many of whom were Parliamentarian- and fled after the Restoration. And the Pennsylvanian & Carolina Scotch Irish Presbyterians who had fled Ulster to escape the Test Act and the famine of the 1730s (not to be confused with the Great Famine).

As reflected in the movie, many of these men were vets of the French/Indian wars on the frontier.

When lecturing in the States in 2008, I had the opportunity to visit Kings Mountain/Sycamore Shoals area where the Scotch Irish Overmountain men won their great victory over Loyalist militias on Oct 7, 1780. One such Ulsterman was John Crockett of Tyrone Huguenot-Scotch linage. He had a boy called Davie who was to die at the Alamo.




--SJ


I think that the reasons for rebellion were various. Some of the leaders in Massachusetts were businessmen or smugglers who were angry at the restrictions places upon them.

I read a piece on Ben Franklin in which he suggested that the British refusal to accept American scrip in lieu of hard currency, drove the economy into the ground and that unemployment resulted. The pig headedness of the British in their refusal to understand the genius of this new American currency system was a contributing factor to the rebellion.

As well, we must remember that many of the Americans were Loyalists. They wanted change but that great leap to independence wasn't on their minds initially.

And when it was over, many of those Loyalists had to flee and did. Draconian laws that resulted in the seizure of their property in some states and the enmity of their fellow citizens compelled them to go. And many did not wish to live in a republic.

It is also true that in time, as anger subsided, that many Loyalists were able to re-enter society and did stay in the new United States.

The Patriot is not a balanced film and follows a tried and true Hollywood format for this type of film. The enemy must be portrayed as totally evil and the humble and peaceful downtrodden rise against that evil. (see Red Dawn et al).

So it was a great adventure film. I found the scene where Mel takes down an entire column of British soldiers, assisted by his two boys to be somewhat preposterous. Perhaps it happened, I don't know. Seems unlikely.

But some balance in the treatment of the British would be nice. William Wallace redux.


Cheers,

George

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 6103
http:// 82.44.47.99
Re: The Patriot--2000 American War of Independence Film
Posted on: 6/23/2017 7:13:12 AM

Quote:
So it was a great adventure film. I found the scene where Mel takes down an entire column of British soldiers, assisted by his two boys to be somewhat preposterous. Perhaps it happened, I don't know. Seems unlikely.


As I said at the outset "Another Mel Gibson Film" so I knew what I was
going to get-Mel- full of wrath over the wanton death of his sons versus an implacable, black- hearted British psychopath. Using your terminology -I thought Gibson played "the perfect caricature".

Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 2965

Re: The Patriot--2000 American War of Independence Film
Posted on: 6/23/2017 9:37:51 AM
Personally, I liked the film, I'm for any film that stirs the publics interest in history!?

[Read More]

Also, I judge a film by how much I don't mind seeing it again,

I always will watch this movie when it's on when I'm channel surfing!

also, the bad guy was really bad!
MD
---------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 6103
http:// 82.44.47.99
Re: The Patriot--2000 American War of Independence Film
Posted on: 6/23/2017 9:53:03 AM
Muchos Gracias Dave-your posts are always welcome

Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5732

Re: The Patriot--2000 American War of Independence Film
Posted on: 6/23/2017 11:37:12 AM

Quote:
Personally, I liked the film, I'm for any film that stirs the publics interest in history!?

[Read More]

Also, I judge a film by how much I don't mind seeing it again,

I always will watch this movie when it's on when I'm channel surfing!

also, the bad guy was really bad!
MD
--Michigan Dave


I think that you like it because it is evocative for Americans. Feelings of patriotism are stirred but this, just like too many other movies purportedly based on historical fact or incident, does nothing to encourage people to find out the historical truths. Quite the opposite I think.



Brits-bad. Americans-good. No shades of grey in this movie.

I get it. All countries engage in myth making about their leaders, their efforts in war and the general decency of their cultures. And those myths are generally based on some factual information.

Myth making by countries is important for their self esteem but also to present the best face to others, other countries, who may be watching.

I am struggling to make myself clear but this article may explain it.

It gives examples of how a new nation, the US had to quickly manufacture supportive myths based loosely on fact, in the years following the revolution. Other countries have had centuries to develop and cement their myths.

[Read More]


Cheers,

George

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 6103
http:// 82.44.47.99
Re: The Patriot--2000 American War of Independence Film
Posted on: 6/23/2017 12:00:56 PM
Excellently put George and how true-we Brits live on myths and our Governments know this; and use it to their advantage. From Harry the King,the Charge of the Light brigade to Winnie's V sign during the Blitz.Those of us who study history do know "most of the truth" I think


Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5732

Re: The Patriot--2000 American War of Independence Film
Posted on: 6/23/2017 12:40:02 PM
Sometimes it is hard to examine one's own history and then to discover that the image that we have created of ourselves may be questioned. Some of our heroes may be wart covered despite the deeds that they accomplished.

I know that Canadians are coming face to face with some hard truths regarding our acceptance of newcomers. We like to think that all are welcome here and that all have the same opportunities but the treatment of new people may not always be as it should.

We are confronting the myth that we managed to co-exist and observe treaties with our First Nations people, in contrast to the persecution and killing of Indians by our neighbours to the south.

But we now know that the government's policy in the beginning was to assimilate the indigenous people, to "drive the Indian out of them" (paraphrasing our 1st PM, Sir John A. Macdonald)


Quote:
"The great aim of our legislation has been to do away with the tribal system and assimilate the Indian people in all respects with the other inhabitants of the Dominion as speedily as they are fit to change.” 1887
. -John A. Macdonald

These uncomfortable truths confront us today and if we are to reconcile with the First Nations people, we must examine the myths, which can be safety nets for us and accept those truths.

I think that all countries could benefit from a dose of reality, from a dismantling of the myths that we have created about ourselves.

Movies like the Patriot perpetuate myths.

George

wazza
Sydney , Australia
top 25
E-6 Staff Sergeant
Posts: 353

Re: The Patriot--2000 American War of Independence Film
Posted on: 6/23/2017 8:34:10 PM
As a historical based action movie its ok.
It has great battle scenes but a stupid back story concerning his departed wife and the living sister and also his slaves.
Many may remember when we discussed this years ago, my story abut myself and many other Aussie servicemen getting kicked out of a US military cinema for cheering for the Brits and consequently the dreaded Dragoons.
It was funny at the time.

Jon Zelazny
Los Angeles, CA, USA
top 50
E-4 Specialist


Posts: 72
http://jonzelazny.com
Re: The Patriot--2000 American War of Independence Film
Posted on: 6/24/2017 1:34:10 AM
When these things appear, I always check who's directing. When I saw THE PATRIOT was the work of Roland Emmerich-- the German Richie Rich best known for knuckleheaded, SFX-slathered extravaganzas like INDEPENDENCE DAY, STARGATE, and GODZILLA, I knew he wasn't a guy who'd be interested in making anything beyond a kick-ass Summer popcorn costume thriller. He's truly the De Mille of our era.

Back when Oliver Stone was respected, he talked about doing a George Washington biopic. Which I guess could have been as great as NIXON, or as brain dead as ALEXANDER. In any event, yes, I too would love to see a great modern, serious take on the American Revolution.
---------------
Z

SJ
Belfast N Ireland, UK
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 697

Re: The Patriot--2000 American War of Independence Film
Posted on: 6/24/2017 6:35:20 AM

Quote:
When these things appear, I always check who's directing. When I saw THE PATRIOT was the work of Roland Emmerich-- the German Richie Rich best known for knuckleheaded, SFX-slathered extravaganzas like INDEPENDENCE DAY, STARGATE, and GODZILLA, I knew he wasn't a guy who'd be interested in making anything beyond a kick-ass Summer popcorn costume thriller. He's truly the De Mille of our era.

Back when Oliver Stone was respected, he talked about doing a George Washington biopic. Which I guess could have been as great as NIXON, or as brain dead as ALEXANDER. In any event, yes, I too would love to see a great modern, serious take on the American Revolution.
--Jon Zelazny


Good post Jon. Yes, it is a popcorn special, but it simply continues the well established genre of retelling the American Collective Memory in a popular kick ass way.

Every nation needs its mythical period, its heroes and it villains/folk devils. For Americans - to be distinct from the English- the narrative needs to be shaped around a selective Collective Memory: The Pilgrim Fathers, Thanksgiving, the Revolution, the Civil War (two competing narratives), the West being won (at the expense of First Nation), industrialisation, urbanisation, and the emergence via WW1 & 2 as a world Super State.

We historians would love serious takes on a range of past events, however the debunking of the myth would make the audience most uncomfortable. In recent years "The Magdalene Sisters " and "The wind that shakes the barley" has shaken and disturbed Irish audiences. Hard to believe it portrays the same Ireland as "The Quiet Man".

The only myth still standing is a failure of the Irish Free State/Republic as a state until Ireland joined the EU.
If the UK had not granted free movement/labour and NHS to Irish emigrants,(plus allowing the hard earned money to be send home) T K Whittaker warned that the state would have collapsed.

Its a credit to Ireland's growing maturity as a nation that we can now use film to engage with our history. But then we never aspired to be a Super Power.

Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 2965

Re: The Patriot--2000 American War of Independence Film
Posted on: 6/24/2017 8:30:54 AM
That said, here is the climax scene from the movie!

[Read More]

---------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5732

Re: The Patriot--2000 American War of Independence Film
Posted on: 6/24/2017 10:44:25 AM

Quote:
That said, here is the climax scene from the movie!

[Read More]


--Michigan Dave


Well good for a laugh. Such cheesy symbolism. It works I guess.

I do have a question. Do Americans get all pumped up and emotional when they see Mel take down a horse with the staff of the rebel flag?

You see, that is what I mean by myth making and seriously, the US does it so well, better than most countries.

The tattered band of freedom loving Patriots rout the evil British regulars in combat.

The fight scene was pretty good though focused directly on Mel. The other Brits and Americans were just wrestling in the background.


How about a sequel in which the Loyalist militia take it to the traitors?

OpanaPointer
St. Louis, MO, USA
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant
Posts: 520

Re: The Patriot--2000 American War of Independence Film
Posted on: 6/24/2017 12:21:02 PM
Really, what do we expect from Lucius Malfoy? Tarleton's Quarter?

Jon Zelazny
Los Angeles, CA, USA
top 50
E-4 Specialist


Posts: 72
http://jonzelazny.com
Re: The Patriot--2000 American War of Independence Film
Posted on: 6/24/2017 11:14:30 PM
Actually, we may have a thoughtful Revolutionary War epic on the Hollywood horizon via the musical HAMILTON.

Haven't seen it yet-- tickets for the coming touring show are averaging $600 here-- but I've read the outstanding Ron Chernow biography its based on, and have been playing the Broadway Soundtrack since Christmas, and it's just mind blowing. If you're wondering how rappers using modern vernacular could credibly tell the story of one of our Founding Fathers, prepare to be amazed.

Given its runaway success, I'm sure the movie deals have already been struck. Now they'll just wait a few years until the touring companies take it far and wide.
---------------
Z

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