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Brian Williams
Atlanta, GA, USA
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Posts: 430
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The Vietnam War by Ken Burns
Posted on: 9/28/2017 11:12:38 PM
Excellent series that is ending tonight. I watched all 10 episodes. Anyone else?

[Read More]

jahenders
Colorado Springs, CO, USA
top 25
E-6 Staff Sergeant


Posts: 269

Re: The Vietnam War by Ken Burns
Posted on: 9/29/2017 11:07:22 AM
I recorded them, but haven't watched them yet.

I assume you'd say they're well worth wathcing?

Jim

Dick Evick
Waco , TX, USA
top 40
E-4 Corporal
Posts: 204

Re: The Vietnam War by Ken Burns
Posted on: 9/29/2017 2:34:46 PM
I saw several episodes I thought they were informative.

Dick.

Brian Williams
Atlanta, GA, USA
Administrator


Posts: 430
http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com
Re: The Vietnam War by Ken Burns
Posted on: 9/29/2017 6:13:06 PM
I didn't like the first episode at all, but I stuck with it and thought it was really good.

morris crumley
Dunwoody, GA, USA
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 1640

Re: The Vietnam War by Ken Burns
Posted on: 9/29/2017 7:10:31 PM
I haven`t been able to watch all episodes, but I have managed to watch some. Well done as all Ken Burns docs are.

What struck me, was the episode that covered the Jane Fonda "visit" to Hanoi. I was about 12 when that happened, and all I really recalled was that she whooped it up and thoroughly enjoyed a sit-down at an anti-aircraft gun.

What I don`t remember seeing before is where she not only called US airmen war criminals...but that they should be tried and executed!

Respects, Morris
---------------
"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 7191

Re: The Vietnam War by Ken Burns
Posted on: 9/29/2017 7:45:57 PM
I just taped the series on PBS, I think.

It was 2 hours long but someone just said that the series is 10 episodes.

I have only watched the first hour. Is there more to come beyond the 2 hours?

It brought back memories of that period in history.


cheers,

George


Brian Williams
Atlanta, GA, USA
Administrator


Posts: 430
http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com
Re: The Vietnam War by Ken Burns
Posted on: 9/30/2017 2:11:05 PM

Quote:
I haven`t been able to watch all episodes, but I have managed to watch some. Well done as all Ken Burns docs are.

What struck me, was the episode that covered the Jane Fonda "visit" to Hanoi. I was about 12 when that happened, and all I really recalled was that she whooped it up and thoroughly enjoyed a sit-down at an anti-aircraft gun.

What I don`t remember seeing before is where she not only called US airmen war criminals...but that they should be tried and executed!

Respects, Morris
--morris crumley


I had no idea she did that either until I saw the episode. I know she sat on the AA gun, but had no idea she had said those things until I saw that episode and heard it out of her mouth. What a horrible person.

Brian Williams
Atlanta, GA, USA
Administrator


Posts: 430
http://www.militaryhistoryonline.com
Re: The Vietnam War by Ken Burns
Posted on: 9/30/2017 2:12:56 PM

Quote:
I just taped the series on PBS, I think.

It was 2 hours long but someone just said that the series is 10 episodes.

I have only watched the first hour. Is there more to come beyond the 2 hours?

It brought back memories of that period in history.


cheers,

George


--George


George,
There are 10 episodes. Each episode is 2 hours long, so the whole thing takes you from the beginning of the conflict to the very sad end. 20 hours total.

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 7191

Re: The Vietnam War by Ken Burns
Posted on: 9/30/2017 4:32:58 PM
Thanks Brian. I have no idea which two hours I just watched but I will find out. PBS out of Buffalo is airing it up here.

I am up to the part that deals with the unrest at home, the deaths or protestors in Detroit and New Jersey. I remember that period.

News reports from Windsor in Ontario were terrible. Apparently people could see the smoke and fire from Detroit across the river.

There were a lot of Americans who came north to avoid the draft.

I thought that the production was excellent. Burns switched from stills to video and back. It seemed to enhance his work though I realize that he was restricted to still photos in his work on the civil war and didn't have other options.

thanks for the information.


Cheers,

George

kp
Belle Vernon, PA, USA
New User
E-2 Private


Posts: 13
http://mysite.verizon.net/kpolacek126/
Jane Fonda
Posted on: 9/30/2017 5:45:16 PM
A losr of veterans I know believe she is the one who should be tried and executed.
I'm also a U.S. Army Vietnam veteran. I don't care for her and I refuse to watch anything she has done. I got a kick out of a recent interview where she said she was tired and just sat in the seat to get a rest. Sure did not look like that in the film clip I've seen.
---------------
With respect,
KP

kp
Belle Vernon, PA, USA
New User
E-2 Private


Posts: 13
http://mysite.verizon.net/kpolacek126/
Re: Jane Fonda
Posted on: 9/30/2017 5:49:18 PM
I've watched the entire series. I did not get as upset as I thought I would ... until near the end when they were at the wall in D.C. I got a bit upset at that point. I've been to the wall several times and have found the names of three men who I knew growing up. Still really hurts.
---------------
With respect,
KP

BWilson

top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 4132

Re: Jane Fonda
Posted on: 10/1/2017 2:56:38 PM
kp,

 Your comment about The Wall was very evocative.

Cheers,

BW
---------------
With occasional, fatigued glances at life's rear-view mirror from the other side of time.

5thmech
Florida, USA
New User
E-2 Private


Posts: 8

Re: Jane Fonda
Posted on: 12/25/2017 10:56:13 AM
I served a year in Vietnam with the 5th Infantry Division.
I found Ken Burn's series informative, but slanted to the left.
I especially found the perspectives and remembrances of my former enemies very interesting. Soldiering seems to be much the same everywhere. I could easily see myself sitting down with them today for a friendly cup of tea. I bear them no ill will.

I got the greatest satisfaction when the guy who was drafted, deserted from Army basic training and fled to Canada and renounced his American citizenship, admitted with apparent sadness that was the greatest mistake he had ever made in his life.

For the record - I voluntarily enlisted in the US Army and later volunteered for Vietnam.

morris crumley
Dunwoody, GA, USA
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 1640

Re: Jane Fonda
Posted on: 12/25/2017 11:24:24 AM
Welcome 5thmech.

And, for the record...thank you for your service.

Respects, Morris
---------------
"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 7191

Re: Jane Fonda
Posted on: 12/25/2017 1:35:03 PM
Welcome 5thmech. I am not an American. Nor am I a service person.

But I would like to first welcome you and to thank you for your service as well.

As to Burns opus, I found it to be terrific. They are talking about this as his best work.

Others say that it fails to spend enough time on the origins of the conflict but I felt that he was telling an American story to mostly Americans.

Parts of it were very sad.


As for that fellow who came to Canada and said that it was his greatest mistake, was he not upset mostly because he lost contact with friends and family?

I can tell you that there are people who avoided the draft and came to Canada who became outstanding citizens and never looked back. So we have to examine each on a case by case basis.

It would be difficult for an American and especially a soldier to see these people as any more than low life cowards but I think that that would be unfair. Many believed strongly in the immorality of the war.

Even after Jimmy Carter's amnesty most of the draft dodgers stayed in Canada. It is often said that this was the best educated group generally that Canada has ever received. It is difficult to get a handle on then number of Americans who came here either before they got their draft card, after they got it or after serving for a time and deserting.

But the departure or emigration of Americans may be the largest in its history. 50,000 was the number given by one author.


You can read the first few pages of this book on the amazon site.

[Read More]

Most of the war resisters do not regret their decision to come to Canada.


[Read More]


Cheers,

George





George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 7191

Re: Jane Fonda
Posted on: 12/25/2017 1:48:01 PM
The subject of Vietnam war resisters was a popular one in Canada and controversial.

I am not trying to convince anyone that they were good or bad but these people, all men but one I think, do have a story to tell.

You may find these articles from the CBC archives to be revealing.

[Read More]


Cheers,

George

5thmech
Florida, USA
New User
E-2 Private


Posts: 8

Re: Jane Fonda
Posted on: 12/25/2017 4:37:19 PM
Well, sir, you have your opinion and I have mine.
I served with both enlistees and draftees.

And I share the opinion of one of the early "resisters" who made the statement that he had noticed a change a few years in - in his words, most of the "resisters" were out to save their own skins.

I served with the best of my generation, while others ran away or became professional college students to keep their student deferments.
Even today, 47 years after I got home, I still take the measure of a man my age by whether he served or not.
Those men and women who wore the uniform, no matter which branch, no matter if they went to Vietnam or stayed in the states, are all my Brothers and Sisters.
We share a bond those draft dodgers will never know nor understand.

As I said, this is just my opinion.
But it is a deeply held one.

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 7191

Re: Jane Fonda
Posted on: 12/25/2017 5:27:37 PM
I can see that you have a strong opinion and I respect that. It is actually what I would expect from anyone who accepted the risks and served.

Truthfully I won't judge these men who did not, and so I don't really have an opinion on them other than to say that Canada was not hurt by their decision to stay. In many cases, we benefitted greatly.

Most have made good lives here and we did not have a combat role in the Vietnam conflict, except for thousands of Canadians who went south to join the US forces.

Canada decided that this war was not our affair and I hope that you won't be angry if I say that I am very happy that our government made that decision.

I will say that I was probably about your age when you went off to fight so I remember the social unrest in your country. The protests on the streets were sincere and unfortunately could be violent at times. Those were tough times in the US.

The men who headed north were not small in numbers. It is hard to get a handle on it but 50,000 is a conservative estimate. There were many more who went underground and had no official status.

That strikes me as a significant sign of social unrest.

My Dad was a WW2 vet so I can appreciate the bond that you have with the men and women with whom you served. And my Dad also wanted to know if a man had served when he met him.

I remember that he wanted to know whether my soon to be father-in-law had served when I told my folks that I was getting married.
He may have been mildly disappointed to find out that he was in the air force.


Merry Christmas,

George

Phil andrade
London, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 2957

Re: Jane Fonda
Posted on: 12/27/2017 6:40:16 AM
A trite comment, perhaps, but heartfelt , and, in a sense, something that really matters ....whenever I watched the vignettes of American social scenes in the sixties and seventies I was very aware that there was something missing : there were hardly any obese people.

What, in God’s name, has happened to us ?

Phil
---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

morris crumley
Dunwoody, GA, USA
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 1640

Re: Jane Fonda
Posted on: 12/27/2017 9:30:19 AM
A bit off topic...although the same thing came to mind for me as I watched the scenes of crowds protesting back in the sixties and seventies.

What amazes me is to watch a college football game...see how many "fat" cheerleaders and drill team participants there are.

A few days ago, while watching the news coverage of an attempted terror attack on a New York City transit station (the Johnny Jihad burned his midsection mostly) I was noticing that almost every single uniformed police officer out in the streets was overweight. They couldn`t run down a Jihad grandma if they had too.

Once upon a time, I thought that police had to "run the course" to remain in good physical condition. Now, I guess demanding that officers remain in good shape is "discriminatory"...or some form of unfair hardship.

What in God`s name has happened to us?.........

Respects, Morris
---------------
"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."

Phil andrade
London, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 2957

Re: Jane Fonda
Posted on: 12/27/2017 10:19:51 AM
Yes, forgive my digression , Morris : but that did really impinge on me when I watched the series.

I didn’t want to watch it : to my mind, it was going to be just another rendition of all those things that surged onto our TV screens when I was an adolescent. I thanked our lucky stars that the UK kept out of it : there were even one or two draft dodgers at my school in London whose parents had decided to seek refuge for them over here.

Once I gave it a try, I was hooked : a truly superb production, made especially powerful by the music score with those memorable hits from the sixties and seventies.

I was struck by the grace and beauty of some of the Vietnamese women who were interviewed.

There was much play on the theme of delusion and denial extant in the American High Command ; people were being told what they wanted to hear.

It reminded me of stories about the British Field Marshall Haig who was determined to give it “one more push” and was reassured by intelligence reports that were misleading....the enemy casualty counts were inflated in 1966 as surely as they had been in 1916.

While the whole thing has come over as a humiliation and defeat, compounded by deceit and duplicity, my respect for American people was enhanced by the calibre and character of the people who spoke, whether they were veterans or their families.

Regards, Phil



---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 7191

Re: Jane Fonda
Posted on: 12/27/2017 11:01:25 AM
Hello Morris,

All police officers must pass a physical test to enter the Police College, up here in Ontario.

But once hired, maintaining physical fitness for the job is up to the individual officer. All those hours in a cruiser don't help with personal fitness.

The Edmonton Police Service in Alberta is the only one that I know of the re-tests every officer under the age of 45, every year. It is mandatory.

Failure is rare but officers are offered remedial training if one aspect of fitness assessment proves to be inadequate.

Cheers,

George


Phil andrade
London, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 2957

Re: Jane Fonda
Posted on: 12/28/2017 5:43:12 AM
There’s supposed to be a post here from 5thmech : what’s happened to it ?

Regards, Phil
---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 7191

Re: Jane Fonda
Posted on: 12/28/2017 9:24:16 AM

Quote:
While the whole thing has come over as a humiliation and defeat, compounded by deceit and duplicity, my respect for American people was enhanced by the calibre and character of the people who spoke, whether they were veterans or their families.


I would extend that respect to many of the people who protested this war.

As the war dragged on, many citizens felt that the war was unjust and that soldiers were dying for a cause that they did not accept or did not understand.

Soldiers serve at the pleasure of the government. They go where they are told to go and have my utmost respect for stepping into the path of danger. It is their duty. Thousands of US service people, conscripts and enlistees did that duty.

Some did not and in protest, refused to serve or left the country. Thousands chose that route.

I got the impression from the Burns documentary that the men and women who were asked to fight were not well served by their government.

Another impression was that some soldiers were discontented with the way the war was fought. Not all seemed proud to be there. That was my impression gleaned from the documentary.

Putting aside the debate as to whether this war was just and I do think that it was not, if a war is to be fought then why fight it in the way that it was described by Burns? It just didn't seem fair to the soldiers to fight a war in a way that seemed to be war without end.

Cheers,

George

morris crumley
Dunwoody, GA, USA
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 1640

Re: Jane Fonda
Posted on: 12/28/2017 9:54:36 AM

Quote:
There’s supposed to be a post here from 5thmech : what’s happened to it ?

Regards, Phil
--Phil andrade



Phil`s right! There was a reply from 5thmech that had to do with processed foods being the reason for so many obese Americans. He mentioned his own farm...and about chickens growing so large in eight months is just not normal. And the feed is what causes that.

Are there powerful agricultural food additive interests at play here? Has our forum been infiltrated by agra-businees ...who pull posts? (Cue X-Files music)

Wat up wit dat?

Respects, Morris
---------------
"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."

morris crumley
Dunwoody, GA, USA
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 1640

Re: Jane Fonda
Posted on: 12/28/2017 10:30:23 AM
As to the Ken Burns doc...I still have not seen every episode. But of what I did see, I think he did the expected good job of bringing a tough subject to the light of today. Any attempt, by anyone, to encompass the entire long war in Vietnam would result in criticisms from some one. if both sides complain...then perhaps it was down the pike 5 x 5.

As to that war...I was still in high school when we started to withdraw from the conflict.

I was a southerner who was always interested in the Civil War...or War Between the States...here. From that perspective, I saw many uneasy parallels in the conduct of the war. From the southern perspective, there was the knowledge that war devastates where it is fought. The economy of the south was destroyed, inflation was horrible, crops were stripped by both armies where ever they maneuvered to. Most of that war was fought in the south. We could not hope to win unless the privations, the economic ruin, and the horrors of war were visited upon the north.

The war was prolonged, because the north fought it with one arm tied behind it`s back, a form of war of attrition...fought against an inferior, but very determined foe who was allowed to utilize their one advantage...interior lines of supply and maneuver.

Yet, in Vietnam, we seemed to have learned nothing from our own history. If you feel you must go to war against an enemy..then you must take that war to the home land of the enemy. Destroy their country, shatter their will for war. Wreck their society...and make it`s people decry the leadership that brought them to this dark place.

If fear of China causes you not to do that...then don`t fight the war.

I watched as American leadership determined that waging a "body bag" war was enough....and we were being lied to about the number of the enemy body bags sometimes. It would be thirty years before the NSA admitted that the Gulf Of Ton ken was a deception. And that that Texas turd, Johnson...had been told from the beginning that we couldn`t win the type of war we felt compelled to fight.

I think Burns did a good job of telling of the bravery and courage of the Americans who served. Lord knows that is what should be remembered. They earned a lot better than the treatment they received at the hands of the anti-war protesters and college kids at the time. It is both possible to be right in protesting war you feel unjust...and a prick at the same time.

God bless those who served with honor.

Respects, Morris
---------------
"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 7191

Re: Jane Fonda
Posted on: 12/28/2017 10:56:38 AM
Morris on your last point, I can agree.

Protest and protest loud and sincerely but do not take it out on the soldiers who were compelled to do the bidding of their country.

I may be getting my documentaries mixed up but I do believe that Burns dealt with the issue of mistreatment of returning soldiers.

He interviewed one woman who had been one to call returning soldiers, "baby killers".

She was asked, how she felt about them now. She was quite tearful when she said that it was a mistake and she wished that she had not done that.

She was in her late teens when the war was going on. May we forgive her now?

Cheers,

George

BWilson

top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 4132

Re: Jane Fonda
Posted on: 12/28/2017 12:15:20 PM
May we forgive her now?

 That question would be far better posed to those who had to endure her insults. Whether any of us who were not in Vietnam "forgive" her is not really relevant.

Cheers

BW
---------------
With occasional, fatigued glances at life's rear-view mirror from the other side of time.

BWilson

top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 4132

Re: Jane Fonda
Posted on: 12/28/2017 12:27:29 PM
And that that Texas turd, Johnson...had been told from the beginning that we couldn`t win the type of war we felt compelled to fight.

 Indeed. The Chief of Staff of the Army at the time, Harold K. Johnson, bluntly told LBJ -THREE TIMES- that commitment of conventional forces to the war in the Republic of Vietnam was a mistake.

Cheers,

BW
---------------
With occasional, fatigued glances at life's rear-view mirror from the other side of time.

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 7191

Re: Jane Fonda
Posted on: 12/28/2017 12:47:30 PM

Quote:
May we forgive her now?

 That question would be far better posed to those who had to endure her insults. Whether any of us who were not in Vietnam "forgive" her is not really relevant.

Cheers

BW
--BWilson


Of course it's relevant. She made a youthful mistake and hurt people by doing so.

I should think that if a war that took place within the recent memory of millions and was so divisive, that time heals and reconciliation may begin.

That kid who called a soldier a "baby killer" is a grown woman and she regrets her actions as a young kid.

I actually would not expect a veteran of that war to forgive someone who impugned their character in such a manner. It would be a large pill to swallow especially if that soldier had lost friends in combat.

But your question is fair. Is it possible for veterans to forgive the protestors whether they misdirected their anger or not?

Cheers,

George

BWilson

top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 4132

Re: Jane Fonda
Posted on: 12/28/2017 12:54:52 PM
Of course it's relevant.

 Presumptuous is what it is. That act of forgiveness is not ours (who were not the targets of such abuse) to make. One may wish to have understanding for her contemptible act, but forgiving is an act to be performed by those she verbally abused.

 I would be hesitant to assume a uniform reaction on the part of those so insulted.

Cheers,

BW

---------------
With occasional, fatigued glances at life's rear-view mirror from the other side of time.

phil andrade
London, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 2957

Re: Jane Fonda
Posted on: 12/28/2017 1:19:09 PM
The documentary made it clear how corrupt and tyrannical the puppet government in South Vietnam had become. Also the power and influence of Buddhist cliques and the tensions that arose therefrom. Who can forget those news items of the self immolation of the monks ?

There were complexities and dimensions to that conflict that I think the series illuminated very well.

The abiding memory of the war’s denouement is the awful sight of those desperate people trying to make their escape from the rooftop of the US Embassy in Saigon as the last helicopter departed on 30 April 1975. It was surreal, and etched on my memory with singular clarity because that day happened to be my twenty second birthday.

One of the best - perhaps the best - history documentaries I have ever seen.

Regards, Phil
---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

BWilson

top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 4132

Re: Jane Fonda
Posted on: 12/28/2017 1:25:01 PM
Phil,

 I knew a couple of Vietnamese who made it to the USA after escaping the communist regime. Their government may have been corrupt*, but the people were very solid. One of these guys was shot in the back as he swam to his escape ... he later became an engineer for the U.S. Government, and he was absolutely no-nonsense about work requirements.

*IMO, it is important to not forget the government of the RVN never had a chance to develop in even a tense period of peace. They were under constant guerrilla or conventional assault until their collapse. I mention this because the government of the Republic of Korea was equally corrupt in the early 1950s ... but has mightily improved since 1953 because they have not been constantly at war. We'll never know if the government of the RVN could have outgrown their early problems because their nation was crushed by a communist invasion.

Cheers

BW
---------------
With occasional, fatigued glances at life's rear-view mirror from the other side of time.

morris crumley
Dunwoody, GA, USA
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 1640

Re: Ken Burns Vietnam documentary....
Posted on: 12/28/2017 3:09:57 PM
George...it`s not for me to forgive. The only people who can forgive are the men who went, served...and took the place of those who did not.

As I said, I saw only bits of the documentary, but one section I did catch showed that some veterans did forgive...and some will never do so.

I don`t trash those who protested for what they believed. I`ve made it quite clear in other posts that my absolute, strong dislike (hate is such an awful word) for Woodrow effin`Wilson is that, having run on a campaign promise of keeping us (the USA) out of war...he then sent us into war...and arrested over 120,000 people and imprisoned them without trial for protesting our involvement.

But, those who protested...and then insulted men who served were a disgrace.

Jane Fonda is the one I will never forgive. She was not some 19 or 20-year old college kid. She was over thirty. She chose to pose on an anti-aircraft gun, gleefully clapping her hands together and laughing with girlish glee. A gun that may have shot down and killed American pilots. Americans who were doing their duty....and following lawful orders. And Jane feels that they "not only should be tried as war criminals...but should be executed." What a complete bitch.

I wait for decades as the Atlanta Braves suck. And then, when they reach their zenith, with several world series ....I have to suffer through seeing that piece of absolute garbage do a tomahawk chop!

What a conundrum!

Respects, Morris

---------------
"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."

Phil andrade
London, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 2957

Re: Ken Burns Vietnam documentary....
Posted on: 12/28/2017 3:47:04 PM
The series went to pains to depict the US leadership in the most unedifying light possible.

Therein, perhaps, lies a legitimate ground for complaint : although, I’m afraid to say, I found that depiction too convincing for comfort.

This feature was brought home most forcibly when the refrain If you’ve got the dough, you don’t have to go ! was cited, along with photos of Clinton and JW Bush seeking refuge from combat by joining reserves of some kind. I understand that the Donald developed foot spurs that kept him out of harm’s way.

At the risk of antagonising, I feel the need to compare this with the deployment of Prince Harry at the sharp end in Afghanistan ,

Regards, Phil
---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

BWilson

top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 4132

Re: Ken Burns Vietnam documentary....
Posted on: 12/29/2017 1:29:35 AM
This feature was brought home most forcibly when the refrain If you’ve got the dough, you don’t have to go ! was cited, along with photos of Clinton and JW Bush seeking refuge from combat by joining reserves of some kind. I understand that the Donald developed foot spurs that kept him out of harm’s way.

Phil,

 Yes, the US elite have excused themselves from such experiences. Curiously, they still expect to be held in high regard and to be allowed to enter high office. Compare that to Harry Truman or JFK, both of whom served as junior officers in the World Wars. I am not a huge fan of John Kerry, but I was angered by the political operators that orchestrated a mockery of his service in Vietnam.

 And the problem was made worse by the government's capitulation to the demand of the protesters to cease conscription. The "volunteer army" has only widened the gap between those who serve and those who don't ... as well as contributing to the polarization of society because the "haves" have not had the experience of rubbing elbows with the "have-nots" and gaining some insight into the challenges posed by life when one is not wealthy.

Cheers,

BW
---------------
With occasional, fatigued glances at life's rear-view mirror from the other side of time.

Phil andrade
London, UK
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E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 2957

Re: Ken Burns Vietnam documentary....
Posted on: 12/29/2017 5:59:12 AM
What came home loud and clear in the series was the intense pace of events in socio political terms : contemporaneous with the conflict there was so much going on : the Civil Rights movement , the riots in Detroit ; 1968 was the most dramatic year.... the assassinations of Robert Kennedy and Martin Luther King , the Prague Spring , the student riots in Paris, the eruption of “ the Troubles “ in Northern Ireland, and, of course, the Tet Offensive.

I remember film footage of that offensive being broadcast on the TV with remarkable clarity : this coincided with the fiftieth anniversary of the Kaiserslacht of the spring of 1918, and I made a suggestion to my history teacher at school that perhaps there was a significant analogy between the two events. I was given short shrift.


Regards, Phil
---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
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E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 7191

Re: Ken Burns Vietnam documentary....
Posted on: 12/29/2017 6:55:59 AM
1968 was a frightening year.

The Doomsday Clock whose figures were put out by a group of Atomic Scientists, moved the minute hand to 7 minutes before midnight.

That's not the closest it has been. That would be 1953 with the clock saying 3 minutes to midnight.

My recollection of the period is one whereby the threat of nuclear war moved the hands closer or farther from midnight dependent on how events transpired in Vietnam.

Perhaps not a significant or truly scientific means to assess how close we were to a nuclear conflict but to this 19 year old about to enter university, it meant worry about whether we would survive. It seems that I felt that way from about 1963 onward.

Good tally Phil of the important and upsetting events of that year.

Cheers,

George

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