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 (1914-1918) WWI Battles    
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phil andrade
London, UK
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Re: 1915-A Year of Battles. Disappointments and some Newcomers
Posted on: 1/19/2017 2:17:31 PM
You make your point, Jim.

Perhaps the Franco British armies should have made no attacks in the West in 1915.

They might have done better to have put more into the Dardanelles !

Regards, Phil





---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
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Re: 1915-A Year of Battles. Disappointments and some Newcomers
Posted on: 1/19/2017 2:42:46 PM
You surprise me at times- Phil-I was not out to cause you any angst and I am truly sorry if I did-just spoke my mind is all-we both know that the Dardanelles would not,indeed could not; not have come about.

Joffre for my money- was an 1870's General-the Battles of the Frontiers almost did what Falkenhayn bragged about re.Verdun.We were lucky-our Donkey was put out to pasture after Loos.

It still took some time for the penny to drop though; and Generals started to wise up-fortunately when they did- we started to win-OK but at a Cost- I have to admit.I almost dread the Battle of Loos now

ATVB

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
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Re: 1915-A Year of Battles. Disappointments and some Newcomers
Posted on: 1/19/2017 2:58:14 PM
Keep speaking your mind Jim and don't apologize for it.

phil andrade
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Re: 1915-A Year of Battles. Disappointments and some Newcomers
Posted on: 1/19/2017 3:01:04 PM
The Dardanelles could not have been won ?

I think that the campaign was winnable. Not everyone will agree, I know.

The Germans in France and Belgium were not passive. They were active and aggressive.

The generals had to learn on the job.

They were not afforded the circumstances to hunker down and await developments ...especially if their allies in the East were desperately shouting for help.

We have to make war as we must, not as we wish said Kitchener.

Now, Jim, please don't think that I'm wound up or irritated when I write this : I really want to invite sympathetic consideration of the predicament of military leaders who were faced with an aggressive and harsh foe in occupation of large swathes of valuable Franco Belgian territory , who held the high ground and who used it to effect constant and maximum harrasment. Add on to that their duty as coalition warriors . They did not possess the experience and attributes that conferred such an advantage three years later. What were they to do ? They might have shied away from their obligations and sought to conserve their men and resources ; would the Germans have let them do that ?

Regards, Phil
---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
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Re: 1915-A Year of Battles. Disappointments and some Newcomers
Posted on: 1/20/2017 2:44:31 AM
Much as I would like to be in sync with you Phil- The French offensives of 1914 met with disaster-ad nauseam. Led IMHO by incapable officers, French formations blindly groped their way forward without sufficient reconnaissance to know exaxtly what they haad to do.

"Head on" battles favoured the more clinical German forces; even when the French won local success, their abysmal command and control structure let them down and successful advances just petered out, via little or no support, and were invariably pushed back by the more organized German forces.

Tactically, the Germans fought remarkably well during this period; France lost over 300,000 dead in 1914, making it France’s second-most deadly year of the war.Regards

Jim
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Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

Lightning
Glasgow, UK
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Posts: 442

Re: 1915-A Year of Battles. Disappointments and some Newcomers
Posted on: 1/20/2017 3:50:21 AM
Yet, for all of the supposed advantages of the German forces over the Allies, they couldn't deliver the knock out blows to win the war at any stage of the conflict. I think that says at least something about the tenacity of the Allied soldiers and officers, as well as perhaps suggesting that we are a bit hard to criticise generals (of either side) engaging in costly offensive war fare when the technology of the time so heavily favoured the tactical defence.

Cheers,

Colin
---------------
"There is no course open to us but to fight it out. Every position must be held to the last man: there must be no retirement. With our backs to the wall and believing in the justice of our cause, each one of us must fight to the end."

anemone
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Re: 1915-A Year of Battles. Disappointments and some Newcomers
Posted on: 1/20/2017 4:07:18 AM
In 1914 Colin-it is my opinion that the French were fighting c.1870 style-En Avant,full of Elan and marching- with their red hats ,blue coats and red baggy trousers-straight into a hail of m/c gun bullets or 76mm field gunfire.It was just not on -we at least put our soldiers into khaki.

Cost 300,000 dead and at least three times that in wounded-I just cannot comprehend how anyone can say- for whatever reason-that that was right; or the only thing to do.I do believe that I am knocking my head against a brick wall-so I will say no more on this issue-I hate repeating myself-I am not for turning.

Regards

Jim
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anemone
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Re: 1915-A Year of Battles. Disappointments and some Newcomers
Posted on: 1/20/2017 4:29:33 AM
The Battle of Loos-25 Sept-15 Oct.1915

Placed against the small-scale British efforts of spring/summer 1915, this attack on Loos by six Divisions was a “significant” offensive in more ways than one – indeed it was referred to at the time as ‘The Big Push’.

The battle took place on what could only be described as unfavourable ground and not of British choice; and before stocks of ammunition and heavy artillery were sufficient for the entire first day, the opening of this battle was noteworthy for the first use of poison gas by the British Army.

In spite of heavy casualties, there was considerable success on the first day in breaking into the deep enemy positions near Loos and Hulluch. But the reserve Divisions of the New Army had been held too far from the battle front by FM French- to be able to help exploit these successes; and succeeding days saw the Offensive bogged down into attritional warfare for minor gains.

This is but an introduction; but perhaps discussion could take place on the salient points in the intro- before moving to the meat of this battle.

Source-The Long,Long,Trail (edited)

Regards

Jim
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George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
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Re: 1915-A Year of Battles. Disappointments and some Newcomers
Posted on: 1/20/2017 6:29:58 AM
Jim, if you have determined to continue to post cut and pastes, at least cite your sources. It is the most honest way to proceed.

George


Phil andrade
London, UK
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Re: 1915-A Year of Battles. Disappointments and some Newcomers
Posted on: 1/20/2017 7:18:07 AM
Jim,

There are different perceptions of generalship in the Great War.

You clearly buy into the depiction of Allied generals in 1915 as being profoundly inept and inflexible, and, worse still, downright callous.

You're certainly not alone.

I would prefer it if you took a more circumspect view ; but who am I to challenge your right to swallow the Alan Clarke and Joan Littlewood version hook, line and sinker ?

Now we're embarking on a discussion of Loos.

If I could ask you to pitch in with your gut reaction to the story of this battle - and refrain from cutting and pasting from the LLT or from wiki - then I'd be a happier man.

Regards, Phil

---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
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Re: 1915-A Year of Battles. Disappointments and some Newcomers
Posted on: 1/20/2017 7:51:39 AM

Quote:
I would prefer it if you took a more circumspect view ; but who am I to challenge your right to swallow the Alan Clarke and Joan Littlewood version hook, line and sinker ?
Quote:


Nowhere near the mark Phil,haven't read either-it is all me speaking

The Battle of Loos was part of a bigger French Offensive in the Artois-the choice of battlefield was unfortunate- in as much- that it was in a mining area,pretty flat and almost devoid of natural cover- whereas the Germans could and did make use of the mining village's houses and slag heaps as defensive positions.

The British were short of guns and ammunition-which when put to Papa Joffre-he just ignored it; and the British being the junior partner had to bite the lip-what a bloody way to run a war.

Joffre's plan was brutally simple-they had to hammer away day and night,regardless of the cost; until the 2nd and 3rd German defence positions were breached.The mind boggles at the sheer stupidity of this man- entrusted with the safety of his country.I rest at this juncture-you want my story of this battle and I assure you- you will get it.

Regards

Jim

---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

Phil andrade
London, UK
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Re: 1915-A Year of Battles. Disappointments and some Newcomers
Posted on: 1/20/2017 8:08:29 AM
Thanks, Jim, my dear old pal....I asked you for something ; and you delivered.

More, please !

I visited that battlefield nine years ago, in the company of a friend whose Gt Uncle had been killed there, and is commemorated at Dud Corner Cemetery. He was in a Scottish regiment. Thousands of Scotsmen were cut down in that battle. The Flowers of the Forest.

I particularly remember the Hohenzollern Redoubt.

It's a dismal place, with a peculiar " atmosphere ". Lots of rusting farming equipment has been cast into the old strongpoint, so it's literally a dump now. Its very drabness seems to scream out at you.

I wonder whether the vibes I picked up there were on account of what I knew had happened in that place ; or whether they were an objective phenomenon , bordering on the psychic .

There are still unrecovered dead there.

I clearly recollect the terraces of miners' cottages alongside the Redoubt, from which German machine guns deployed enfilade fire.

All in all, an experience best described as evocative.

The ground around Loos is as flat as a billiard table. It was not a good place to attack.

In terms of loss of life, September 25th 1915 was one of the worst days of the war for Britain.

Regards , Phil


---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
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Re: 1915-A Year of Battles. Disappointments and some Newcomers
Posted on: 1/20/2017 9:02:09 AM
Yes Phil-Snap-despite being in coal mining all my working life -I have never seen such a wretched hovel of a place.It was the 9th and 15th Scottish K Divisions that got shot to pieces in the open first.The Germans called it Liechenfeld (Field of Corpses)/

But I digress-the discharge of the chlorine gas hung about in no man's land and even drifted back into the British lines-certainly not helping the attackers which were Haig's 1sr Army of 1st,2nd and 7th Regular Divisions;9th and 15 New Army Divisions and the 47th Territorial Division-these were spread out.

The 9th and 25th Scottish were severely cut up by m/c gun fire in the open-it is thought that between 7000 and 8000 Sottish soldiers lost their lives at Loos.The German soldiers stood aghast at the sight of an entire field covered with enemy on the move in columns.They stood on anything the could find to shoot -one m/c gun fired 12500 rounds and many hundreds of Scots fell like cut wheat.

The late arrival of the 21st ans 24th New Army Divisions were also caught in this ghastly trap and over 8000 were killed or wounded and this was the first day-JHC I am depressed.For what it's worth this battle was strategically pointless IMHO

Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
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Re: 1915-A Year of Battles. Disappointments and some Newcomers
Posted on: 1/20/2017 9:44:43 AM
Battle Map -Loos-1915


[Read More]



Regards

Jim
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Phil andrade
London, UK
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Re: 1915-A Year of Battles. Disappointments and some Newcomers
Posted on: 1/20/2017 10:00:37 AM
This is the French equivalent of the " rust belt" in USA ; and I'm sure you have first hand experience of comparable areas of industrial wastelands over here in the UK, Jim.

There is still a tortured socio political ambience in this area of Artois : a lot of embittered people, and the evocation of Loos does not help.

The German histories admit that this Franco British offensive gave them a nasty scare.

It was not one sided. The Germans had to adapt their defensive methods in order to cope with the pressure. I think - not sure, though - that Falkenhayn came rushing back from the Eastern Front because he was so worried.

I wonder if you're a tad unfair on Papa Joffre. Was he really just a stupid dullard ?

I think he was a good coalitionist, anxious to see the big picture of the war.

But, for all my suggestions to counter your harsh verdicts, Jim, I have to admit that this massive Allied offensive in Champagne and Artois was a failure and a very significant blow to French morale. I would not wish to engage in an elaborate turd polishing excercise.

Regards, Phil






---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
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Posts: 5935
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Re: 1915-A Year of Battles. Disappointments and some Newcomers
Posted on: 1/20/2017 10:32:18 AM
In accord with coalition rules the British persisted with attacks for another three weeks-they gained nothing- but a narrow salient two miles deep,in which 16,000 British troops died and a further 25,000 were wounded.This battle had been a terrible initiation for the soldiers of the New Armies-though the Scots of the 9th and 15th Divisions bore their losses pretty stoically.

I gather that main French attack also ended in failure;despite going hell for leather at the enemy with colours unfurled and their brass and their drums of their bands to the front-my heart bleeds.Others faltered but officers urged them on. 143.567 became casualties-Shades of the ACW.


Quote:
British casualties in the main attack were 48,367 and they suffered 10,880 more in the subsidiary attack, a total of 59,247 losses of the 285,107 British casualties on the Western Front in 1915.

J. E. Edmonds, the British Official Historian, gave German losses in the period 21 September – 10 October as c. 26,000 of c. 141,000 casualties on the Western Front during the autumn offensives in Artois and Champagne.

In Der Weltkrieg, the German official account, losses of the German 6th Army are given as 29,657 to 21 September; by the end of October losses had risen to 51,100 men and total German casualties for the autumn battle (Herbstschlacht) in Artois and Champagne, were given as 150,000 men

Wikipedia

From FM French's Despatch


Quote:
On 16th November the 2nd Canadian Infantry Brigade carried out a brilliant little operation near La Petite Douve Farm in raiding the enemy’s trenches witih bombing parties. They caused considerable damage to the enemy, brought away 12 prisoners, and only suffered one accidental casualty themselves.


Could do with some fresh comment

Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
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Re: 1915-A Year of Battles. Disappointments and some Newcomers
Posted on: 1/20/2017 11:38:14 AM
Piper Laidlaw VC 6/KOSB of Loos


[Read More]


Regards


Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

Phil andrade
London, UK
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Posts: 2474

Re: 1915-A Year of Battles. Disappointments and some Newcomers
Posted on: 1/20/2017 12:57:27 PM
Jim,

The conflicting estimates of losses still confound historians.

But the most reliable figures reveal 143,000 French casualties in Champagne and 48,000 in Artois up until 6 October : a total of 191,000. The corresponding German casualties against the French amounted to 121,000.

At Loos the British suffered 50,000 casualties against 20,000 for the Germans.

Those two sets of figures speak volumes about how much more experienced and skilful than the British the French were at that stage of the war.

It's fairly legitimate to round the figures and suggest 250,000 Allied casualties against 150,000 German : a disparity of five to three.

But that would only apply to the strict period of time and the specific armies engaged in specific sectors : if we extend the remit through October and into early November, and allow for diversionary and subsidiary attacks along the entire Western Front, the numbers would be much larger, and, I expect, the overall disparity even more in favour of the Germans.

Given that this awful loss was accompanied by the enormous defeats suffered by the Russians, and the crushing of the Serbs, and the obvious failure at Gallipoli, it's fair to claim that this was a very low point in the war for the Allies...perhaps the nadir.

Regards , Phil
---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
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Posts: 5935
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Re: 1915-A Year of Battles. Disappointments and some Newcomers
Posted on: 1/20/2017 1:18:39 PM
Yes indeed- the nadir-could/would you comment on the "unhorsing" of Sir John French; and the subsequent changes in the Command of the British Army please.I think there is tad left in 1915-depends on how one views it ???

BTW-did you see the bit abut Piper Laidlaw-as a boy- I met him as a labourer on a nearby farm c. 1944-went there for a Xmas chicken-he gave me an old rooster for 5/-.

Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

Phil andrade
London, UK
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Re: 1915-A Year of Battles. Disappointments and some Newcomers
Posted on: 1/20/2017 1:35:36 PM
Looking forward to resuming this.

Will return with some suggestions and comments a bit later.

Regards, Phil
---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

scoucer
Berlin, Germany
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Posts: 1923

Re: 1915-A Year of Battles. Disappointments and some Newcomers
Posted on: 1/20/2017 2:32:20 PM

Quote:
.I think there is tad left in 1915-depends on how one views it ???


Jim
--anemone


More than a tad. In my opinion we've only just skimmed over it.

Trevor
---------------
`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie

Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.

Jim Cameron
North Bellmore, NY, USA
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Posts: 669

Re: 1915-A Year of Battles. Disappointments and some Newcomers
Posted on: 1/20/2017 3:25:16 PM
Joffre was far from a dullard, even if initially wrong-footed in the opening days of 1914.
I think that what eventually happened to him when he was kicked upstairs and sidelined was was happens to a lot of early war senior generals. Sooner or later they run afoul of the politicians, or different sects within their own army, or both, get blamed for lack of results, or too many casualties, or both again, and wear out their welcome. Often, the war they managed and understood simply evolves beyond them and demands new leadership. (Think George McClellan, during the American Civil War. Then think Grant.)
---------------
Jim Cameron

Every time I go to Gettysburg, I learn two things. Something new, and, how much I still don't know.

Phil andrade
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Re: 1915-A Year of Battles. Disappointments and some Newcomers
Posted on: 1/20/2017 3:34:39 PM
Do you mind if I borrow that, Mr Cameron ?

I don't think I've ever seen a more discerning and incisive commentary on the fate of the discarded commanders in this - and other - wars.

Bravo !

Regards, Phil
---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

Phil andrade
London, UK
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Posts: 2474

Re: 1915-A Year of Battles. Disappointments and some Newcomers
Posted on: 1/20/2017 3:38:36 PM

Quote:
Yes indeed- the nadir-could/would you comment on the "unhorsing" of Sir John French; and the subsequent changes in the Command of the British Army please.I think there is tad left in 1915-depends on how one views it ???

BTW-did you see the bit abut Piper Laidlaw-as a boy- I met him as a labourer on a nearby farm c. 1944-went there for a Xmas chicken-he gave me an old rooster for 5/-.

Regards

Jim
--anemone


Krikey, Jim : an old rooster for your Xmas bird....how chewy that must have been ! And he charged you five bob !

Yes, thanks for the article.

Regards, Phil
---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

Phil andrade
London, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
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Posts: 2474

Re: 1915-A Year of Battles. Disappointments and some Newcomers
Posted on: 1/20/2017 4:08:34 PM
For the three months of September, October and November 1915, 26,301 British were posted as killed or missing on the Western Front. For the French, the figure was 115,000 ; for the Germans, it was 67,243.

Those, note, are killed and missing only , which tended to account for between one quarter and one third of total casualties ( British casualties , for example, totalled 94,787 ).

There is ample evidence in those figures to suggest that the Germans inflicted double the loss that they suffered.

I wonder how far the generals - especially those in the Allied camp - were aware of this disparity at the time.

Regards, Phil
---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

Jim Cameron
North Bellmore, NY, USA
top 15
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Posts: 669

Re: 1915-A Year of Battles. Disappointments and some Newcomers
Posted on: 1/20/2017 8:14:43 PM

Quote:
Do you mind if I borrow that, Mr Cameron ?

I don't think I've ever seen a more discerning and incisive commentary on the fate of the discarded commanders in this - and other - wars.

Bravo !

Regards, Phil
--Phil andrade


Feel free. And thanks for the compliment!
---------------
Jim Cameron

Every time I go to Gettysburg, I learn two things. Something new, and, how much I still don't know.

scoucer
Berlin, Germany
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Re: 1915-A Year of Battles. Disappointments and some Newcomers
Posted on: 1/21/2017 12:38:23 AM

Quote:

Quote:
Falkenhayn, in his controversial Christmas Memorandum of 1915 - claimed by some historians to be a post war fabrication - stated that the strain on France had reached breaking point ; although he did comment that this had been born with great devotion.--Phil andrade


Phil,

Haig made similar and repeated statements about the Germans; they were on their last legs; their reserves were gone; they were starving; and so n. "One more push", I believe is the name of the mentality. In truth, the "one more push" idea completely disregarded how the war was going to be won. It would not be by one or two heroic breakthroughs and rapid encirclement, but by continual, merciless and relentless assault upon the enemy, along various parts of the line to avoid giving the enemy the chance to bring up overwhelming reserves or counter-attack in force.


Colin--Lightning


In discussion with Kanzler Bethmann -Hollweg end of 1915, who noted it in his diary, Falkenhayn refered to France being at breaking point not the French Army which he refered to as still being very strong. Falkenhayn meant the political division and polarised military leadership.

Trevor
---------------
`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie

Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.

Phil andrade
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Re: 1915-A Year of Battles. Disappointments and some Newcomers
Posted on: 1/21/2017 3:50:29 AM
Good point, Trevor.

It serves to remind us that some military leaders are more clued up about the socio political and economic aspects of warfare than we might suppose.

I always got the impression that Falkenhayn was very aware of this.

I must take this moment to urge you to watch that footage that Bill Wilson has posted in his thread on the Somme Then and Now : you'll see your grand father with the Lancashire Fusiliers about to go over at Beaumont Hamel !

Regards , Phil
---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
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Re: 1915-A Year of Battles. Disappointments and some Newcomers
Posted on: 1/21/2017 4:38:24 AM
1915 had been a miserable year for the Allies on the Western Front-much blood had been spilt for little,if any; real gain.The Germans-on the other hand-had shown that they had learned much more about the methods of defending entrenched lines-the Allies had learned little to nothing about the way to break through such positions.

This gives a pointer to the greater ratio of casualties suffered by the Allies.
They were invariably making a poor fist (IMO) of attacking a strong German defence position- a situation which would pertain throughout 1916 and 17.

The Germans commanding a strong defence line above the Allies-who were always committed to the attack,via their duty of having to remove Germans from France- from an inferior position.

NB.The German Offensive of March 1918-evened up-a tad reversed even- the casualty ratio ie. German attackers=200,000 and Allied defenders=180,000.For all of the Kaisershlact-Allied losses=850,000 and German losses=725,000


Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

phil andrade
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Re: 1915-A Year of Battles. Disappointments and some Newcomers
Posted on: 1/21/2017 6:26:58 AM
Some of the French figures that are cited vary a great deal ; the highest figures include the seriously ill along with the wounded, and this can distort things a bit. The French figure included in that Kaisershlact total you cite is one such.

Regards, Phil
---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

anemone
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Re: 1915-A Year of Battles. Disappointments and some Newcomers
Posted on: 1/21/2017 7:03:36 AM
Sir John French's removal as head of the British Army in France was quite messy
as friends and enemies put their slant on Sir John's standing.French himself had already slurred Haig in his Loos Dispatch; and wanted Kitchener replaced by a civilian-who he would not have to kow-tow to-I think he was an evil little man-quite unfitted for high command.

Even Parliament was split.Kitchener wanted CIGS Robertson as French's replacement.In the long run French was not sacked, but allowed to resign with honour; and Haig replaced him.

Monro- from Gallipoli- was promoted to GOC First Army in Haig's place, not Rawlinson whom Haig would have preferred; and for reasons of seniority Haig was forced to accept the weak-willed Launcelot Kiggell, not Butler as chief of staff BEF- in succession to Robertson. Monro lasted just over six months before being posted to Cinc India.

Regards

Jim
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anemone
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Re: 1915-A Year of Battles. Disappointments and some Newcomers
Posted on: 1/21/2017 7:38:01 AM
The construction and deployment of Kitchener's New Armies in 1915


Quote:
K1 thus eventually comprised
9th (Scottish) Division | 10th (Irish) Division | 11th (Northern) Division | 12th (Eastern) Division |
13th (Western) Division | 14th (Light) Division.

The K1 Divisions began to move overseas from May 1915.

K2 and K3

On 28 August 1914, Kitchener asked for another 100,000 men to volunteer. Army Order 382, issued on 11 September 1914, specified an additional six Divisions, which naturally would be called K2. They would be organised on the same basis as K1, and came under War Office control.

K2 thus eventually comprised
15th (Scottish) Division | 16th (Irish) Division | 17th (Northern) Division | 18th (Eastern) Division |
19th (Western) Division | 20th (Light) Division.

The K2 Divisions also began to move overseas from May 1915.

The rate at which men volunteered increased, partly at least due to news from the front that the British regulars were in action and in retreat. A third 100,000 men were called and placed into another six Divisions, called K3. They would be organised on the same basis as K1 and K2, and came under War Office control. However, these divisions received no Command titles in addition to their numbering. They all moved to France from August 1915.

K3 thus eventually comprised
21st Division | 22nd Division | 23rd Division | 24th Division |
25th Division | 26th Division.
Long,Long Trail

Does anyone know which theatre of operations these new Divisions were specifically deployed-I do know 10th Irish was sent to Salonika ???

NB.By the end of 1915 there were 38 Infantry Divisions (Regular,New Army and Territorial) committed to the Western Front.


Regards

Jim


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MikeMeech
UK
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Posts: 303

Re: 1915-A Year of Battles. Disappointments and some Newcomers
Posted on: 1/21/2017 12:46:39 PM

Quote:
The construction and deployment of Kitchener's New Armies in 1915


Quote:
K1 thus eventually comprised
9th (Scottish) Division | 10th (Irish) Division | 11th (Northern) Division | 12th (Eastern) Division |
13th (Western) Division | 14th (Light) Division.

The K1 Divisions began to move overseas from May 1915.

K2 and K3

On 28 August 1914, Kitchener asked for another 100,000 men to volunteer. Army Order 382, issued on 11 September 1914, specified an additional six Divisions, which naturally would be called K2. They would be organised on the same basis as K1, and came under War Office control.

K2 thus eventually comprised
15th (Scottish) Division | 16th (Irish) Division | 17th (Northern) Division | 18th (Eastern) Division |
19th (Western) Division | 20th (Light) Division.

The K2 Divisions also began to move overseas from May 1915.

The rate at which men volunteered increased, partly at least due to news from the front that the British regulars were in action and in retreat. A third 100,000 men were called and placed into another six Divisions, called K3. They would be organised on the same basis as K1 and K2, and came under War Office control. However, these divisions received no Command titles in addition to their numbering. They all moved to France from August 1915.

K3 thus eventually comprised
21st Division | 22nd Division | 23rd Division | 24th Division |
25th Division | 26th Division.
Long,Long Trail

Does anyone know which theatre of operations these new Divisions were specifically deployed-I do know 10th Irish was sent to Salonika ???

NB.By the end of 1915 there were 38 Infantry Divisions (Regular,New Army and Territorial) committed to the Western Front.


Regards

Jim



--anemone

Hi

Rawson's 'British Army Handbook 1914-1918' has the following initial deployments for these divisions:

9th - France, 10th Gallipoli in Aug. then Salonika Oct., 11th - Gallipoli, 12th - France, 13th - Gallipoli, 14th - France.

15th to 20th all to France.

21st - 26th all to France initially, 22nd to Salonika in Oct., 26th to Salonika in Nov.

Mike

anemone
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Re: 1915-A Year of Battles. Disappointments and some Newcomers
Posted on: 1/21/2017 1:06:08 PM
Much obliged to you Mike-all to France other than 10th,22nd and 26th to Salonika.Do I assume correctly that the Gallipoli Divisions either remained in the Middle East; or were they rotated back to France.???

Regards

Jim
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MikeMeech
UK
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Posts: 303

Re: 1915-A Year of Battles. Disappointments and some Newcomers
Posted on: 1/21/2017 4:38:37 PM

Quote:
Much obliged to you Mike-all to France other than 10th,22nd and 26th to Salonika.Do I assume correctly that the Gallipoli Divisions either remained in the Middle East; or were they rotated back to France.???

Regards

Jim
--anemone

Hi

10th - Gallipoli Aug. 1915, Salonika Oct. 1915, to Palestine Sept. 1917.
11th - Gallipoli Aug. 1915, Egypt Feb. 1916, France June 1916.
13th - Gallipoli July 1915, Egypt Jan. 1916, Mesopotamia March 1916.

Mike

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Re: 1915-A Year of Battles. Disappointments and some Newcomers
Posted on: 1/22/2017 4:05:02 AM
Voluntary enlistment slackened off during 1915-possible affected by war news- this method had not been abandoned and a National Register introduced.This scheme was set in motion in October 1915 under the control of Lord Derby- who's aim was to maintain Army and Industry's requirements.

It called up groups of men as they were required-taking unmarried men first; however the response particularly satisfactory-so in January 1916 the National Service Act replaced conscription.


Regards

Jim
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anemone
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Re: 1915-A Year of Battles. Disappointments and some Newcomers
Posted on: 1/22/2017 7:32:08 AM
Irish Home Rule and the British Army


Quote:
The peaceful achievement of Home Rule was again put in doubt by the failure of the Government to deal with the build-up of arms in Northern Ireland and the public refusal of a cavalry brigade in the Curragh to enforce Home Rule Act if so requested.

About 80,000 enlisted in Ireland in the first 12 months of the war, some half of whom came from Ulster. The First New Army of 100,000 soldiers, K1, contained the 10th (Irish) Division which was formed in late August, 1914. It had three brigades. One had regiments with bases in all four provinces. The second was based in Ulster and the third was based in the other three provinces.

The 16th (Irish ) Division of the Second New Army was formed in September, 1914. One brigade was from the province of Ulster-the remainder from Southern Ireland.

The 36th (Ulster) Division was authorised on the 28th October 1914. It was based on the formation and membership of the Ulster Volunteer Force to which a London based artillery unit was added. It contained men from all nine counties of Ulster.


Source-Irish Home Rule

Regards

Jim
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Phil andrade
London, UK
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Re: 1915-A Year of Battles. Disappointments and some Newcomers
Posted on: 1/22/2017 10:15:22 AM
Is that it, then, Jim ?

Just a pasted narrative, with no comment from you ?

Not good malt whisky .

Regards, Phil
---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
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Posts: 5935
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Re: 1915-A Year of Battles. Disappointments and some Newcomers
Posted on: 1/22/2017 11:20:11 AM
Two pieces were mine since you were last here Phil.I did not comment on the Irish Divisions because i thought that you might-however seeing as how you did not-I will comment.

The K1 Division-the 10th (Irish)was found mainly in the Provinces of the south ie.Munster,Connaught and Leinster were sent to Salonika. The K2 and K4 Divisions 16th Irish and 36th Ulster fought together on the Western Front.

The 36th Division took part in the first two days of the Battle of the Somme in July 1916, losing around 5,500 total casualties, of whom around 2,000 were killed.

The 16th Division joined this battle in the September, when it served with distinction in the operations at Guillemont and Ginchy in the later, more successful phases of the Somme Battle.

Side-by-side service by thesa two divisions came in June 1917 when thousands of men from different sides of Ireland’s divide served at Messines with the 36th and 16th divisions- as they fought beside each other- differences settled pro tem.

Regards

Jim
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anemone
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Re: 1915-A Year of Battles. Disappointments and some Newcomers
Posted on: 1/22/2017 1:04:32 PM
Last Act???

The war in Mesopotamia seemed to be going well; and by late November,1915- General Townshend’s troops were almost 25 miles from Baghdad.

However at the ancient city of Ctesiphon- they suffered their first defeat-tired and poorly supplied, they were beaten by unexpectedly determined Turkish troops; and lost about half of their 8000 strong force.

Townshend fell back on Kut-al-Amara, which he had captured on September 28. The Turks pursued him there and on December 3 besieged his force holed up at Kut. The siege lasted 147 days-Townshend miscalculated his resources and there was no relief.

Regards

Jim
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