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The current time is: 10/18/2017 1:41:05 AM
 (1914-1918) WWI Battles    
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BWilson

top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 3296

Then and now footage of the Somme
Posted on: 1/21/2017 1:19:02 AM
 This looks interesting to watch. [Read More]

Cheers

BW
---------------
With occasional, fatigued glances at life's rear-view mirror from the other side of time.

Society's righteous paranoia lows profoundly. -- random wisdom of a computer

Phil andrade
London, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Moderator
Posts: 2475

Re: Then and now footage of the Somme
Posted on: 1/21/2017 3:44:50 AM
Bill,

What a wonderful evocation !

It really moved me. Thanks so much.

Trevor,

Whatever happens , you must watch this : spot your grandfather waiting in the jumping off point in the sunken road .

A few years back I saw another interesting interpretation of this footage when a deaf lady who was an expert lip reader was asked to tell us what the men were saying. A great many expletives, apparently.

Regards , Phil
---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

scoucer
Berlin, Germany
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 1923

Re: Then and now footage of the Somme
Posted on: 1/21/2017 7:12:14 PM
Yes. Spotted him. I also remembered walking along there many years ago.

Trevor
---------------
`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie

Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.

Lightning
Glasgow, UK
top 20
E-7 Sgt First Class


Posts: 442

Re: Then and now footage of the Somme
Posted on: 1/22/2017 6:55:56 AM
Morning all,

I just watched a large part of the film there. I must confess that I found it a difficult experience, although it is a superbly made piece. I know that my Great-Grandfather, Fred, fought at the Somme and survived. I wonder how many of his pals didn't make it through.

Cheers,

Colin
---------------
"There is no course open to us but to fight it out. Every position must be held to the last man: there must be no retirement. With our backs to the wall and believing in the justice of our cause, each one of us must fight to the end."

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 5939
http:// 82.44.47.99
Re: Then and now footage of the Somme
Posted on: 1/22/2017 7:13:21 AM
Evocative pictures-now some evocative words


Quote:
DULCE ET DECORUM EST

Bent double, like old beggars under sacks,
Knock-kneed, coughing like hags, we cursed through sludge,
Till on the haunting flares we turned our backs
And towards our distant rest began to trudge.
Men marched asleep. Many had lost their boots
But limped on, blood-shod. All went lame; all blind;
Drunk with fatigue; deaf even to the hoots
Of tired, outstripped Five-Nines that dropped behind.
Gas! Gas! Quick, boys! – An ecstasy of fumbling,
Fitting the clumsy helmets just in time;
But someone still was yelling out and stumbling,
And flound'ring like a man in fire or lime . . .
Dim, through the misty panes and thick green light,
As under a green sea, I saw him drowning.
In all my dreams, before my helpless sight,
He plunges at me, guttering, choking, drowning.
If in some smothering dreams you too could pace
Behind the wagon that we flung him in,
And watch the white eyes writhing in his face,
His hanging face, like a devil's sick of sin;
If you could hear, at every jolt, the blood
Come gargling from the froth-corrupted lungs,
Obscene as cancer, bitter as the cud
Of vile, incurable sores on innocent tongues,
My friend, you would not tell with such high zest
To children ardent for some desperate glory,
The old Lie; Dulce et Decorum est
Pro patria mori.


Wilfred Owen
Thought to have been written between 8 October 1917 and March, 1918

Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

Phil andrade
London, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Moderator
Posts: 2475

Re: Then and now footage of the Somme
Posted on: 1/22/2017 10:10:04 AM
Good Lord, that terrain is clear and exposed, isn't it ?

What a killing ground !

The Germans know where to cite their defences, didn't they ?

Is it my imagination, or do the German prisoners look bigger and more robust than their British captors ?

Regards, Phil
---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

Rick Schaus
Capon Springs, WV, USA
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant


Posts: 548

Re: Then and now footage of the Somme
Posted on: 1/22/2017 11:45:39 AM
Very well done.

So many of the scenes, especially in the villages, looked virtually the same in 2016 as in 1916.

Vast killing ground.

It was very emotional to watch, knowing that so many of the young Tommies shown would be dead or wounded in a short time.
---------------
VR, Rick Schaus

"When things go wrong in your command, start searching for the reason in increasingly large circles around your own desk."
-- Gen. Bruce Clarke

Jim Cameron
North Bellmore, NY, USA
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant


Posts: 669

Re: Then and now footage of the Somme
Posted on: 1/22/2017 12:57:53 PM

Quote:


Is it my imagination, or do the German prisoners look bigger and more robust than their British captors ?

Regards, Phil
--Phil andrade


I'm not so sure about that. The Germans did tend to favor rural types, but both sides had plenty of city boys, and a lot of the British troops look brawny enough in their own right.

My daughter deemed London Scottish in their kilts "totally badass." She being a big "Outlander" fan who appreciates men in kilts.

And yes, the Germans were masters at siting their defenses. The London Scottish took something like 70% casualties.

---------------
Jim Cameron

Every time I go to Gettysburg, I learn two things. Something new, and, how much I still don't know.

BWilson

top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 3296

Re: Then and now footage of the Somme
Posted on: 1/22/2017 1:15:09 PM
My daughter deemed London Scottish in their kilts "totally badass."



Cheers

BW
---------------
With occasional, fatigued glances at life's rear-view mirror from the other side of time.

Society's righteous paranoia lows profoundly. -- random wisdom of a computer

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5287

Re: Then and now footage of the Somme
Posted on: 1/22/2017 4:41:38 PM
Excellent and an emotional piece.

I was drawn quite naturally to Beaumont-Hamel and the reference to Newfoundland Park where nearly the entire 1st Newfoundland Regiment was wiped out. The "blue puttees" were the pride of the crown colony of Newfoundland. There were less than 250,000 people on the island in 1914 but they managed to raise a battalion. 753 men went forward on July 1. The next morning 68 answered roll call.

For Newfoundlanders, July 1 is celebrated as Remembrance Day. It is also the birthday of Canada of which NFLD is now a part so it is a day of mixed emotions for our people who come from NFLD.


For some reason I scrolled back to a scene taken near Mametz. There was a Gordon Highlander on the ground and he was dead. British horse drawn wagons passed through and by him and I noticed the wheel ruts. When the film switched back to 2016, similar wheel ruts, this time made by farm equipment were there. I don't know why that affected me but it did.

And a question. At the end the film showed as the ADANAC cemetery. I don't know whether anyone else would notice but ADANAC is CANADA spelled backwards. I saw no Canadian headstones and the Canadians didn't join the battle until August, near Courcelette.

Is the name just a coincidence?


Cheers,

George

Phil andrade
London, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Moderator
Posts: 2475

Re: Then and now footage of the Somme
Posted on: 1/22/2017 5:22:25 PM
Didn't the firing of the huge 15 inch guns look " primitive " ?

All those men scurrying around, carrying their implements ...it was like watching an ant heap being disturbed . Labour intensive stuff, with massive shells and cartridges, primers, staffs and heaven knows what else. Did I see a cradle/trolley arrangement being used to insert the shell ?

And then the fellows scurry away to shelter from the concussive impact of the violent discharge.

The thing summed up the Great War : a mixture of the industrialised and mechanised with human labour and sweat.

Edit : On reflection, I'm wondering whether it was 9 inch artillery, not fifteen inch....

Regards , Phil
---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

scoucer
Berlin, Germany
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 1923

Re: Then and now footage of the Somme
Posted on: 1/22/2017 5:45:52 PM

Quote:
Excellent and an emotional piece.

I was drawn quite naturally to Beaumont-Hamel and the reference to Newfoundland Park where nearly the entire 1st Newfoundland Regiment was wiped out. The "blue puttees" were the pride of the crown colony of Newfoundland. There were less than 250,000 people on the island in 1914 but they managed to raise a battalion. 753 men went forward on July 1. The next morning 68 answered roll call.

For Newfoundlanders, July 1 is celebrated as Remembrance Day. It is also the birthday of Canada of which NFLD is now a part so it is a day of mixed emotions for our people who come from NFLD.


For some reason I scrolled back to a scene taken near Mametz. There was a Gordon Highlander on the ground and he was dead. British horse drawn wagons passed through and by him and I noticed the wheel ruts. When the film switched back to 2016, similar wheel ruts, this time made by farm equipment were there. I don't know why that affected me but it did.

And a question. At the end the film showed as the ADANAC cemetery. I don't know whether anyone else would notice but ADANAC is CANADA spelled backwards. I saw no Canadian headstones and the Canadians didn't join the battle until August, near Courcelette.

Is the name just a coincidence?


Cheers,

George
--George


[Read More]

George, It is exactly as you thought. No coincidence.

Trevor
---------------
`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie

Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5287

Re: Then and now footage of the Somme
Posted on: 1/22/2017 6:02:21 PM
Thanks Trevor.

The link was very informative.

So many little details that I do not know about this conflict.

Cheers,

George

Phil andrade
London, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Moderator
Posts: 2475

Re: Then and now footage of the Somme
Posted on: 1/22/2017 6:11:54 PM
George,

The notorious name of Regina Trench comes to the fore in the story of Canadians on the Somme.

One of those times when Canadians learnt what NOT to do.

Many of their dead from that place would be interred in Adanac cemetery, although most are unidentified.

A SOLDIER OF THE GREAT WAR

KNOWN UNTO GOD

Regards , Phil
---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

Jim Cameron
North Bellmore, NY, USA
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant


Posts: 669

Re: Then and now footage of the Somme
Posted on: 1/22/2017 7:05:51 PM

Quote:
Didn't the firing of the huge 15 inch guns look " primitive " ?

All those men scurrying around, carrying their implements ...it was like watching an ant heap being disturbed . Labour intensive stuff, with massive shells and cartridges, primers, staffs and heaven knows what else. Did I see a cradle/trolley arrangement being used to insert the shell ?

And then the fellows scurry away to shelter from the concussive impact of the violent discharge.

The thing summed up the Great War : a mixture of the industrialised and mechanised with human labour and sweat.

Edit : On reflection, I'm wondering whether it was 9 inch artillery, not fifteen inch....

Regards , Phil
--Phil andrade


Actually, I'm not sure that firing the really heavy artillery was all that different during WW2. Guns that big were essentially shipboard weaponry, without the mechanical assistance found in turret mounts. Serving them required big gun crews, lots of muscle, and you didn't want to be standing too close when they went off.
---------------
Jim Cameron

Every time I go to Gettysburg, I learn two things. Something new, and, how much I still don't know.

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5287

Re: Then and now footage of the Somme
Posted on: 1/22/2017 7:47:46 PM

Quote:
George,

The notorious name of Regina Trench comes to the fore in the story of Canadians on the Somme.

One of those times when Canadians learnt what NOT to do.

Many of their dead from that place would be interred in Adanac cemetery, although most are unidentified.

A SOLDIER OF THE GREAT WAR

KNOWN UNTO GOD

Regards , Phil
--Phil andrade


Many thanks for this Phil.

The experience at Regina Trench was dismal. Hand to hand fighting. Rain for 16 of 21 days and cold wind.

Parts of the Trench were taken at great cost and then the next day a whole battalion assigned to increase the territory taken was destroyed by friendly artillery fire.

24, 000 casualties for the Corps during the Somme. Fits right in with the Tommies. Everybody suffered.

I was unaware that Canadians from the Courcelette area were moved to this ADANAC Cemetery.

Again thanks.

Jim Cameron
North Bellmore, NY, USA
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant


Posts: 669

Re: Then and now footage of the Somme
Posted on: 1/23/2017 3:57:07 PM

Quote:
Very well done.

So many of the scenes, especially in the villages, looked virtually the same in 2016 as in 1916.

Vast killing ground.

It was very emotional to watch, knowing that so many of the young Tommies shown would be dead or wounded in a short time.

--Rick Schaus


Absolutely tailor made for heavy machine guns that could reach out 2,000 yards, and took advantage of every foot of it. Small wonder so many British troops were cut down before they even reached no man's land.
---------------
Jim Cameron

Every time I go to Gettysburg, I learn two things. Something new, and, how much I still don't know.

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5287

Re: Then and now footage of the Somme
Posted on: 1/23/2017 5:23:11 PM
So true, Jim Cameron. I have been to Beaumont-Hamel and Caribou Park where the Newfoundlanders were cut down.

The field of battle is preserved and the Newfoundlanders attacked over open ground. They were cut down by MG fire from three positions that allowed the Germans to criss-cross fire.

No place to hide. There is one tree out in the middle of the area that they attacked. It is about half way between the British and German trenches.

It is said that the Newfies, heavily laden with gear stood up and went forward steadily and slowly, leaning forward with their chins tucked in, "as if they were walking through a snowstorm back home".

They didn't flinch and the bodies were piled up around two gaps in the wire and around this single tree. One veteran who had fought there, said that they counted 90 bodies piled up near the tree and the gap in the wire next to it.

They all wore a tin triangle that glinted in the sunlight. It was there to provide something for the A/C spotters to see.

The German MG's continued to fire at the wounded, some of whom were trying to crawl back. When the Newfoundlanders went to retrieve their dead, more than a few bodies featured a hole in that tin triangle.



There were fewer than 800 Newfoundlanders and when the attack failed, the regiment was ordered to resume the attack with the remnants of the men. They were to join with the British Worcester and Hants Regiment and attack again.

The NFLD commander couldn't believe it and he spoke to a senior officer of the Br. 29th Div who took the man back to the Brigadier and told him that the Newfoundlanders could not attack again. There was no-one left to do it.

This battle at Beaumont-Hamel is only a microcosm of events that unfolded for thousands of Tommies that day.

I recall being quite teary eyed at Beaumont-Hamel when I thought of those poor Newfoundlanders and the 50,000 dead and wounded British soldiers.

Such folly to ask men to march forward into a wall of bullets over open ground.


Cheers,

George

Phil andrade
London, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Moderator
Posts: 2475

Re: Then and now footage of the Somme
Posted on: 1/23/2017 7:32:23 PM
And not just those MG bullets, George, but a truly awful storm of HE and shrapnel that cut down tens of thousands of khaki clad men that day.

There were observers who said that they saw the men advance into a wall of explosions.

The German artillery had that ground sited to a yard.

Regards , Phil

---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

 (1914-1918) WWI Battles    
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