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 (1914-1918) WWI Battles    
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George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5313

Re: Cambrai 1917--A Quite Unexpected Reverse
Posted on: 3/18/2017 7:24:11 AM
Jim, Phil alluded to the incidence with the flamethrower and pictures that seemed to confirm it. I just provided some pictures and there are more.

Just google it and hit Images.

I can only speculate, as you are doing, as to whether the flamethrower would have any effect.

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 5965
http:// 82.44.47.99
Re: Cambrai 1917--A Quite Unexpected Reverse
Posted on: 3/18/2017 7:55:35 AM
Picture of a British tank destroyed by a German flamethrower in October 1918



[Read More]

Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
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E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 5965
http:// 82.44.47.99
Re: Cambrai 1917--A Quite Unexpected Reverse
Posted on: 3/18/2017 11:20:25 AM
Casualties

Third Army reported losses of dead, wounded and missing of 44,207 between 20 November and 8 December. Of these, some 6,000 were taken prisoner in the enemy counterstroke on 30 November. Enemy casualties are estimated by the British Official History at approximately 45,000.

Senior Officer casualties 20 November 1917 – 7 December 1917

Lt-Col William Alderman DSO Officer commanding 6th Royal West Kents. Killed in action 20 November 1917. Buried in Fifteen Ravine British Cemetery.

Lt-Col Thomas Best DSO and Bar Officer commanding 1/2nd Royal Inniskilling Fusiliers. Killed in action 20 November 1917. Buried in Ruyaulcourt Military Cemetery.

Lt-Col Charles Linton DSO MC Officer commanding 4th Worcesters. Killed in action 20 November 1917. Buried in Fins New British Cemetery.

Lt-Col William Kennedy MC Officer commanding 18th Welsh Regiment. Killed in action 23 November 1917. Commemorated on Louverval Memorial to the Missing.

Lt-Col Clinton Battye DSO Officer commanding 14th Highland Light Infantry. Killed in action 24 November 1917. Buried in Moeuvres Communal Cemetery Extension.

Brigadier-General Roland Boys Bradford VC Officer commanding 186 Brigade HQ. Aged 25 when killed on 30 November 1917. Buried in Hermies British Cemetery.

Lt-Col Kenneth Field DSO Officer commanding 38th Siege Battery, Royal Garrison Artillery. Killed in action 30 November 1917. Commemorated on Louverval Memorial to the Missing.

Lt-Col Henry Gielgud MC Officer commanding 7th Norfolk Regiment. Killed in action 30 November 1917. Commemorated on Louverval Memorial to the Missing.
#
Lt-Col Ralph Hindle DSO Officer commanding 4th Loyal North Lancashire Regiment. Killed in action 30 November 1917. Buried in Unicorn Cemetery, Vendhuile.

Lt-Col Donald Anderson MC Machine Gun Officer, 61st Division. Killed in action 3 December 1917. Commemorated on Louverval Memorial to the Missing.

Source -Long Long Trail

Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

phil andrade
London, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Moderator
Posts: 2482

Re: Cambrai 1917--A Quite Unexpected Reverse
Posted on: 3/18/2017 7:21:43 PM

Quote:
It may be of interest that I did mention in an early post that the Germans were using artillery to destroy tanks.In Liddell Hart's "History of the First World War pp 444 he devotes a paragraph to this matter-he makes mention of one German artillery officer who single handedly knocked out 16 tanks-it has become a bit of a legend; but his claim was exaggerated because only five wrecked tanks were found in the area of his gun. This exploit was lionised at British HQ.

Regards

Jim
--anemone


People cottoned on to this story.

They like to remind themselves that even in an era of mechanised warfare, the individual still counts for something.

Cambrai symbolises the triumph of the machine over flesh and blood.

The story of this lone German officer reassures humanity : even if he's an enemy, he's a comforting testimony to what a brave and skilful soldier can do.

Regards , Phil
---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
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E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 5965
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Re: Cambrai 1917--A Quite Unexpected Reverse
Posted on: 3/19/2017 5:27:08 AM
There is a postscript to this tale of valour-an intelligence officer who examined the ground on which this feat took place found marks of three batteries which had been there to engage the tanks; but that is not proof positive that the claim was bogus.The lone gunner maybe was all that was left of the others, and his claim stood.
PS There were however- only five disabled tanks found in the gunner's area


Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

James W.
Ballina, Australia
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant


Posts: 674

Re: Cambrai 1917--A Quite Unexpected Reverse
Posted on: 3/19/2017 6:41:56 AM

Quote:
There is a postscript to this...
PS There were however- only five disabled tanks found in the gunner's area


Regards

Jim
--anemone


PPS Jim, isn't this a case of deja vu - all over again?

Or have you found the Tank Corp regimental records that reveal how many machines were in the attack force & their final dispositions?

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
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E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 5965
http:// 82.44.47.99
Re: Cambrai 1917--A Quite Unexpected Reverse
Posted on: 3/19/2017 7:07:02 AM
James-Of 380 tanks which started this attack -180 were lost; but as to where these tanks were lost- precisely-I have little or no idea-not all of the tanks were destroyed by the enemy-many just broke down mechanically or got stuck irretrievably.

Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

James W.
Ballina, Australia
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E-8 Master Sergeant


Posts: 674

Re: Cambrai 1917--A Quite Unexpected Reverse
Posted on: 3/19/2017 7:11:55 AM
Jim, any idea of how many of those "...180 lost." - were deemed functionally 'hors de combat'- but not actually destroyed/100% lost?

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 5965
http:// 82.44.47.99
Re: Cambrai 1917--A Quite Unexpected Reverse
Posted on: 3/19/2017 7:21:39 AM
James-truth to tell- I have not got the foggiest.As the British vacated the battlefield-what tank remains that were -"the good. the bad and the ugly"-would become the possessions of the Germans.

Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

James W.
Ballina, Australia
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant


Posts: 674

Re: Cambrai 1917--A Quite Unexpected Reverse
Posted on: 3/19/2017 7:25:16 AM
Again Jim, I seriously doubt that.. surely even the British Army - would not be that bloody complacently stupid..

Ten days is time enough to put in the effort & recover their latest very effective weapon, to both re-furbish the doer-uppers, & totally demolish the goners..

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 5965
http:// 82.44.47.99
Re: Cambrai 1917--A Quite Unexpected Reverse
Posted on: 3/19/2017 7:38:42 AM
James I accept what you say; but I have already stated I have not read anything about tank recovery; but will admit that early breakdowns were probably recovered- but more I cannot say.Take a look for yourself-youmay find what you are looking for.I am too busy keeping up with you.

Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

James W.
Ballina, Australia
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant


Posts: 674

Re: Cambrai 1917--A Quite Unexpected Reverse
Posted on: 3/19/2017 7:51:06 AM
Well Jim, a quick search for German photo-archive pix of tanks at Cambrai shows quite a few tanks in their control & in various states of repair, including goers!

Seems your assumption of a virtually criminal level of blase disregard by the British - regarding their novel new weapon, was appallingly correct..

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 5965
http:// 82.44.47.99
Re: Cambrai 1917--A Quite Unexpected Reverse
Posted on: 3/19/2017 8:12:01 AM
James-I can only tell you what I know; and leave conjecture to the "What Ifs"I do believe that WW1 battlefields were left as gigantic junk yards.

Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

James W.
Ballina, Australia
top 15
E-8 Master Sergeant


Posts: 674

Re: Cambrai 1917--A Quite Unexpected Reverse
Posted on: 3/19/2017 8:15:10 AM
It is no conjecture Jim, & those photos I viewed do not look faked.. see for yourself, & post them up in this thread, if of interest..

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 5965
http:// 82.44.47.99
Re: Cambrai 1917--A Quite Unexpected Reverse
Posted on: 3/19/2017 8:20:29 AM
The conjecture bit was not aimed at you personally James; but was how I view conjecture generally.


Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 5965
http:// 82.44.47.99
Re: Cambrai 1917--A Quite Unexpected Reverse
Posted on: 3/19/2017 9:28:50 AM

Quote:
Supposedly a heavy hit and run raid, Cambrai had been a failure. As a more strategic operation, designed to punch a deep hole, capture Cambrai, disrupt German rail communications and compel withdrawal from there to the Scarpe, it was a dismal defeat.

Stories began to filter back of headlong retreat; of Generals caught in their pyjamas, and of new, wonder German tactics that sliced easily through the British defences.

Questions were rightly asked in the War Cabinet, which requested an enquiry. Haig pre-empted it, having already organised one of his own.


Source-The Long Long Trail

I believe Haig's enquiry placed the blame for the failure of this operation squarely on the shoulders of the junior officers,NCO's and men on the southern flank for failing to halt the vigorous German counterattack in that area.No officer of General rank was impugned in an any way-including George Harper-GOC of the 51HD- who was promoted to Corps level.


Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

 (1914-1918) WWI Battles    
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