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The current time is: 10/23/2017 11:07:45 AM
 (1945-1991) Cold War    
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anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
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E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 5966
http:// 82.44.47.99
A City Divided-Berlin--1945-81
Posted on: 3/20/2017 5:51:53 AM
After the war ends on 8 May 1945, much of Berlin was nothing but rubble: 600,000 apartments had been destroyed, and only 2.8 million of the city’s original population of 4.3 million still lived in the city.

In accordance with an agreement signed by the Allies, the city was divided into four sectors and administered jointly by the occupying powers, the United States of America, Great Britain, France, and the Soviet Union.

Growing conflicts of interest between the victorious powers with regard to the postwar order in Europe in general and Germany in particular put an end to the Allies’ joint administration of the city. Berlin became a Cold War hotspot.


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I would appreciate anyone;s view as to what were the main causes of tensions between East and West???There appeared to be- for any move the west made- there was an eastern counter move.eg a unification of curency by the west was countered by a Russian organised Bkockade of goods and food stuffs-bringing about the Berlin Airlift.

Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 5966
http:// 82.44.47.99
Re: A City Divided-Berlin--1945-81
Posted on: 3/20/2017 11:34:02 AM
The Berlin Airlift

This crisis started on June 24, 1948, when Soviet forces blockaded rail, road, and water access to Allied-controlled areas of Berlin.

The United States and United Kingdom responded by airlifting food and fuel to Berlin from Allied airbases in western Germany.

The crisis ended on May 12, 1949, when Soviet forces lifted the blockade on land access to western Berlin.


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Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 2774

Re: A City Divided-Berlin--1945-81
Posted on: 3/20/2017 3:20:47 PM
The building of the Berlin Wall!

Thank goodness for the Berlin Airlift!?

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Are Russian designs on acquiring parts of Europe again coming to light again?
---------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

BWilson

top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 3323

Re: A City Divided-Berlin--1945-81
Posted on: 3/21/2017 3:12:51 AM
Growing conflicts of interest between the victorious powers with regard to the postwar order in Europe in general and Germany in particular put an end to the Allies’ joint administration of the city. Berlin became a Cold War hotspot.

 Trevor is doubtlessly far more expert on this topic, but the "joint administration" of Berlin continued despite Cold War tensions. When I was there in the 1980s, Allied military personnel did not recognize the authority of DDR police or other officials; they only recognized the authority of one of the four military powers in the city. It was also customary to exchange salutes with Soviet officers as, -in Berlin only-, they were still officially viewed as "Allied" personnel. Berlin was a unique Cold War environment.

Cheers

BW
---------------
With occasional, fatigued glances at life's rear-view mirror from the other side of time.

Society's righteous paranoia lows profoundly. -- random wisdom of a computer

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 5966
http:// 82.44.47.99
Re: A City Divided-Berlin--1945-81
Posted on: 3/21/2017 5:02:14 AM
Thank you Bill for your post- and like you- know that Trevor would be a great asset on this topic.Following the Soviet Blockade-relations eased for a while; but in 1951 the Soviets introduced another initiative to attempt to oust the Allies from Berlin


Quote:
In 1952, the East German government began sealing its borders, further isolating West Berlin. As a direct result the electrical grids were separated and phone lines were cut.

The Volkspolizei and Soviet military personnel also continued the process of blocking all the roads leading east and west from the city, resulting in several armed standoffs and at least one skirmish with the French Gendarmerie and the Bundesgrenzschutz that June.

However, the culmination of the schism did not occur until 1961 with the construction of the Berlin Wall
Wikipedia

Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 5966
http:// 82.44.47.99
Re: A City Divided-Berlin--1945-81
Posted on: 3/22/2017 8:51:13 AM

Quote:
1960
In response to rising coercive measures in the GDR (forced collectivization), almost 200,000 GDR residents flee to West Berlin over the course of the year via the sector’s open borders.

1961
On July 25, U.S. president John F. Kennedy announces that the western protecting powers have three essential interests in Berlin: 1. the right of the Allies to be in Berlin, 2. their right of access to Berlin, and 3. the survival and right of self-determination of West Berlin.

In July, 30,415 GDR residents leave the country for West Berlin, the highest number in a month since 1953.

On August 13, the GDR starts construction on a wall that runs along the sector border and seals the two parts of the city off from one another.


Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

scoucer
Berlin, Germany
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 1924

Re: A City Divided-Berlin--1945-81
Posted on: 3/22/2017 9:18:40 AM

Quote:
Growing conflicts of interest between the victorious powers with regard to the postwar order in Europe in general and Germany in particular put an end to the Allies’ joint administration of the city. Berlin became a Cold War hotspot.

 Trevor is doubtlessly far more expert on this topic, but the "joint administration" of Berlin continued despite Cold War tensions. When I was there in the 1980s, Allied military personnel did not recognize the authority of DDR police or other officials; they only recognized the authority of one of the four military powers in the city. It was also customary to exchange salutes with Soviet officers as, -in Berlin only-, they were still officially viewed as "Allied" personnel. Berlin was a unique Cold War environment. Cheers BW--BWilson


The joint administration continued up until re-unification in 1990. Yes, Allied personnel whether Soviet or western would not deal with german police wether west or east. An important part of my many-sided job was liason between the locals , german police and military police and often between different military police. The ultimate authority was the Kommandertura, the 4 major generals commanding the 4 sectors and their staffs.
I first lived in West Berlin in 1980 and worked for the British Military Gouvernment from 1982-1990. It was a weird place and I had a great time. The two Berlins stood opposite each other like showcases for the opposing systems.

The city was like a seismograph measuring the relationship between East and West and it really earned its nickname as “Spy City”.
Will look up some interesting websites if anybody is interested.

Trevor
---------------
`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie

Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 5966
http:// 82.44.47.99
Re: A City Divided-Berlin--1945-81
Posted on: 3/22/2017 9:28:50 AM

Quote:
Will look up some interesting websites if anybody is interested.


Absolutely Trevor

Many thanks for your current contribution Trevor-do hope you will return with futher data relating to the Divided City.


Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 5966
http:// 82.44.47.99
Re: A City Divided-Berlin--1945-81
Posted on: 3/22/2017 10:14:10 AM

Quote:
1963
On January 17, Soviet party and government head Nikita Khrushchev visits East Berlin.

U.S. president John F. Kennedy visits the city on June 26 and in his famous speech [Film] in front of the Schöneberg Town Hall assures the people of Berlin of his solidarity with them.

On December 17, the signing of the first entry permit agreement allows West Berliners to visit relatives in the eastern part of the city and is valid for the period from 19 December 1963 to 5 January 1964; 1.2 million West Berliners take advantage of this opportunity to visit family. Further agreements follow in 1964,1965, and 1966.


Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5313

Re: A City Divided-Berlin--1945-81
Posted on: 3/22/2017 10:27:32 AM

Quote:
The city was like a seismograph measuring the relationship between East and West and it really earned its nickname as “Spy City”.
Will look up some interesting websites if anybody is interested.


Yes please. Also Trevor, perhaps you could tell us what life was like for you during the period.

Were you aware of tensions in day to day living? Did you have any sense of danger during the period?

What were the emotions experienced as the wall came down? (1990 ???)

The image in my mind is of half of a city under siege, isolated as it was in East Germany; an island struggling to survive surrounded by a sea of oppression.

My melodrama is painful even for me to read. .

But I do recall thinking in those days, that there must have been a degree of tension associated with being a West Berliner, that was constant.


Anything you have that would enlighten would be appreciated Trevor.

Cheers,

George

scoucer
Berlin, Germany
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 1924

Re: A City Divided-Berlin--1945-81
Posted on: 3/22/2017 11:24:30 PM
Okay. Will do. Unfortunately, the real interesting stuff I´´m still not allowed to talk about.

Trevor
---------------
`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie

Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.

anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS, UK
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 5966
http:// 82.44.47.99
Re: A City Divided-Berlin--1945-81
Posted on: 3/24/2017 9:04:30 AM
1968
The attempt to assassinate the Berlin student leader Rudi Dutschke on April 11 on the avenue Kurfürstendamm marks another dramatic climax in the conflicts surrounding the student movement in Berlin.

On the 24th anniversary of the failed attempt on 20 July 1944 to overthrow Adolf Hitler, the Stauffenbergstrasse Memorial and Educational Center (today the German Resistance Memorial Center) is opened at the Bendlerblock on July 20.

The New National Gallery (Neue Nationalgalerie), designed by Mies van der Rohe, opens at the Kulturforum in West Berlin.

Regards

Jim
---------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper

Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 2774

Re: A City Divided-Berlin--1945-81
Posted on: 3/24/2017 9:23:40 AM
As Lincoln would have said; "A city divided can not stand"!?
---------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5313

Re: A City Divided-Berlin--1945-81
Posted on: 3/24/2017 9:36:31 AM

Quote:
Okay. Will do. Unfortunately, the real interesting stuff I´´m still not allowed to talk about.

Trevor
--scoucer


And I'm not going to be intrigued by that statement at all Trevor.

George

SJ
Belfast N Ireland, UK
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 697

Re: A City Divided-Berlin--1945-81
Posted on: 3/28/2017 10:03:07 AM

Quote:

Quote:
Growing conflicts of interest between the victorious powers with regard to the postwar order in Europe in general and Germany in particular put an end to the Allies’ joint administration of the city. Berlin became a Cold War hotspot.

 Trevor is doubtlessly far more expert on this topic, but the "joint administration" of Berlin continued despite Cold War tensions. When I was there in the 1980s, Allied military personnel did not recognize the authority of DDR police or other officials; they only recognized the authority of one of the four military powers in the city. It was also customary to exchange salutes with Soviet officers as, -in Berlin only-, they were still officially viewed as "Allied" personnel. Berlin was a unique Cold War environment. Cheers BW--BWilson


The joint administration continued up until re-unification in 1990. Yes, Allied personnel whether Soviet or western would not deal with german police wether west or east. An important part of my many-sided job was liason between the locals , german police and military police and often between different military police. The ultimate authority was the Kommandertura, the 4 major generals commanding the 4 sectors and their staffs.
I first lived in West Berlin in 1980 and worked for the British Military Gouvernment from 1982-1990. It was a weird place and I had a great time. The two Berlins stood opposite each other like showcases for the opposing systems.

The city was like a seismograph measuring the relationship between East and West and it really earned its nickname as “Spy City”.
Will look up some interesting websites if anybody is interested.

Trevor

--scoucer


Thanks for the memories Trevor - I did a tour in Berlin in 1982. I remember the unique Allied Forces Day "drive past", the lights of the West like an island when you came in at night, the surrealist time lapse of Spandau and observing the idiosyncratic pacing's of Prisoner No 7. One month and we gladly handed over to the French. The statutory visits to the East through Charlie. Did I mention our lads trying to extinguish the Freiheit Recht Friede, but they had too much Bushmills malt in their urine.....


scoucer
Berlin, Germany
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 1924

Re: A City Divided-Berlin--1945-81
Posted on: 4/16/2017 10:03:28 PM
So. This bunch of cowboys gave me a lot of headaches.


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Trevor
---------------
`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie

Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.

SJ
Belfast N Ireland, UK
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 697

Re: A City Divided-Berlin--1945-81
Posted on: 4/17/2017 4:22:03 AM
Historic stuff Trevor ! Thanks for sharing.

Slan'

SJ

SJ
Belfast N Ireland, UK
top 10
E-9 Sergeant Major
Posts: 697

Re: A City Divided-Berlin--1945-81
Posted on: 4/17/2017 4:22:03 AM
Historic stuff Trevor ! Thanks for sharing.

Slan'

SJ

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5313

Re: A City Divided-Berlin--1945-81
Posted on: 4/17/2017 6:58:36 AM
Great information Trevor. That two museums look like a must see if anyone is interested in cold war information.

Were any of the BRIXMIS tour soldiers hurt or killed on their liaison missions? Did the detentions involve interrogation?

Cheers,

George




Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 2774

Re: A City Divided-Berlin--1945-81
Posted on: 4/17/2017 8:51:14 AM
What a couple of US Presidents had to say about the wall!

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& what Pink Floyd said about the wall!

[Read More]

MD
---------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5313

Re: A City Divided-Berlin--1945-81
Posted on: 4/17/2017 9:33:27 AM
We forget that the pragmatic reformer and small "L" liberal, Mikhail Gorbachev, had a lot to do with letting this happen.

He had hoped to reform the ridiculous Communist economic system to avoid bankrupting the USSR. He thought that a country could be socialist and democratic.

We could argue that Gorby's reforms created the conditions for the wall to fall, surely as much or more than speeches from Presidents.

The twin concepts of perestroika and glasnost initiated by Gorbachev within the USSR led to liberalization movements in other states that had been under the thumb of the Soviets.

I don't think that Gorbachev intended that his policies would galvanize the liberal movements in other republics but they did and when Hungary, Romania, Poland, Czechoslovakia and finally East Germany pushed for reform, Gorbachev did not get in the way.

Neither did Andrupov during the Polish freedom movement. He didn't send troops into Poland in 1981 (??)

Perhaps he could not. There was no money to intervene.

Those were heady days. Gorby wasn't around that long, 1985-1991. He made enemies at home. One of them is likely at the helm right now.

Who introduced limited democracy to the USSR in 1988? It was Gorby.

But I recall thinking that this man was perhaps our hope that we would not all go up in a nuclear fire ball.

How many times did he meet with Ronald Reagan to discuss nuclear disarmament and detente?

By the time that the Berlin Wall fell, East Germans who had fled to Hungary were already making an end run into Austria because the Hungarians had removed the fencing and barbed wire.

So let's hear it for Gorbachev, the man who brought down the Berlin wall. Well, at least he let it happen and so did the powers who got mad at him for letting it happen. Events had spiralled out of their control by that time.

Cheers,

George

BWilson

top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 3323

Re: A City Divided-Berlin--1945-81
Posted on: 4/17/2017 9:47:52 AM
 My toast would go to the Polish, Czech, Hungarian, and East German peoples. They took very hazardous risks to confront murderous regimes and undermine them.

Cheers

BW
---------------
With occasional, fatigued glances at life's rear-view mirror from the other side of time.

Society's righteous paranoia lows profoundly. -- random wisdom of a computer

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major
Posts: 5313

Re: A City Divided-Berlin--1945-81
Posted on: 4/17/2017 11:00:40 AM

Quote:
 My toast would go to the Polish, Czech, Hungarian, and East German peoples. They took very hazardous risks to confront murderous regimes and undermine them.

Cheers

BW
--BWilson


I see that Lech Walesa, an heroic figure in my view, is under some heat for suggestions that he was a Soviet mole. He has denied it.



BWilson

top 5
E-9 Cmd Sgt Major


Posts: 3323

Re: A City Divided-Berlin--1945-81
Posted on: 4/17/2017 11:17:07 AM

Quote:

Quote:
 My toast would go to the Polish, Czech, Hungarian, and East German peoples. They took very hazardous risks to confront murderous regimes and undermine them.

Cheers

BW
--BWilson


I see that Lech Walesa, an heroic figure in my view, is under some heat for suggestions that he was a Soviet mole. He has denied it.



--George


George,

 Quite so. I'm not sure "Soviet mole" is so accurate, but it is very possible that he was an agent of the secret police of the Polish communist regime. Some statements have come out about private dinners as communism was falling in Poland -- things like Walesa chummily sitting with the communist police and military leaders, and all deciding how everyone was to vastly profit from the change in politics. Put briefly, many sweet deals were done at that time as the quid pro quo for the communist authorities to lower the weapons that had pointed at the Polish people. In a sense, it was very real politics, but it was not at all the fairy tale we were told in the West about how communism fell in Poland. In Poland, it is generally known the real mover and shaker behind Solidarity was Anna Walentynowicz, but the official version of events favored Walesa. Walentynowicz was among the victims of the 2010 crash in Smolensk of the Polish aircraft carrying many of Poland's senior officials.

Cheers

BW
---------------
With occasional, fatigued glances at life's rear-view mirror from the other side of time.

Society's righteous paranoia lows profoundly. -- random wisdom of a computer

 (1945-1991) Cold War    
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