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The current time is: 11/24/2017 12:51:06 AM
 General History
AuthorMessage
brian grafton
Victoria, BC, Canada
Posts: 1401
Omar Khadr, still on the map...
Posted on: 7/8/2017 9:45:01 PM
I've been talking about Omar Khadr for years on MHO, though not often in General History forum. I have been an apologist for his actions, and a supporter for his freedom, for years. Recently, he has been awarded/granted/recompensed in the amount of CDN$10+ million.

Some of you might be saying, who the hell is Omar Khadr? Here's a decent report offering an encapsulation: [Read More]

IMHO, Omar was a victim. Of outrageous parental guidance. Of bad placement and timing. Of geopolitical posturing and definitions. Of a misguided need to punish. Of a bogus series of definitions by which he could be detained for almost a decade in Gitmo. Of a trial by a less than honourable military tribunal.

I accept he pled "guilty" to murder. I wonder what I might have done after eight years or so in Gitmo, where the alternatives were continued incarceration or a guilty plea. I'm glad he was finally released from US custody and incarcerated in Canada to serve his sentence. I'm somewhat skeptical about the means by which Omar was paroled, pardoned and freed, but do not feel he is a danger to Canada.

The psychology of Omar's battle experience, subsequent treatment both in Afghanistan and in Gitmo, and pressure during his years of interrogation and the many subsequent years leading up to his military tribunal, and his slow (and, probably for a lot of decades to come, seemingly or purported) rehabilitation should be worth at least a dozen Ph.D. dissertation.

The suggestion that the families of Mr Speer and another US soldier impacted by the cave-fight that ended with Omar Khadr in custody will attempt to be compensated from Canada's decision is a different matter, IMHO. I honestly don't want to explore that.

Why is Canada offering such a generous settlement? I don't know, to be honest. But I think it important to note that, from what I'm picking up, at least a vocal minority of Canadians are pissed off that a confessed murderer is receiving substantial compensation from the Canadian government as he goes free, pursues post-secondary training and might be able to pick up the threads of his life. He's also not the first to earn such compensation. A decade ago there was Maher Arar, who received similar compensation.

IMHO, in both of these cases, plus in others, Canada is paying off its guilt trip. As a country, we have been abysmally lax in protecting our citizens abroad. As a country, we may have confused national and religious affiliation. As a country, we may have demonstrated (most reluctantly) that our security services were at times more prepared to serve foreign interests than the interests of Canadian citizens.

Don't know about the amount of the settlements. But I do believe that this is Canada trying to buy back its own self-respect. We have shamed ourselves by our treatment of Canadian citizens abroad and in trouble. I hate to add that these are not the only points at which Canada may have forgotten its responsibilities to its citizens.

It's sad that Can

Cheers
Brian G
---------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly.

"The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
Posts: 5560
Re: Omar Khadr, still on the map...
Posted on: 7/30/2017 6:38:13 AM
Hello Brian,

I see that you posted this a while ago. I have been rather busy, house hunting. To our surprise, we managed to sell our home in Haliburton rather quickly and have been searching for some place to live for about a month. Another story. We are no longer homeless so I have time for other pursuits.

But to the topic, I am aware of the harsh and unfair and probably illegal treatment of Omar Khadr. A child soldier, he languished far too long at the prison at Gitmo.

I think that our government of the day was anxious to show how tough it could be and was reluctant to challenge the US on the existence of a facility like Gitmo. The government under PM Harper, I believe, did far too little to get this boy out of that place.

We must note that Khadr's lawyers in the US fought for him with much greater vigour than the boy's own government did. They hammered away at the illegality of a place like Gitmo, the use of military tribunals rather than civil courts to judge and the length of time that Omar was detained before any charges were laid.


And I concur that the Canadian government is often lax in offering protection to Canadians abroad. Part of that is a lack of clout internationally. And a part of it is that far too many new Canadians are happy to carry the passport and then to return home to the old country to live, where they run afoul of the laws of that land and then ask for assistance from the Canadian government to bail them out.

I must confess that I do have trouble separating Omar from the rest of his family who should have been deported long ago. That doesn't include Omar of course. He was born here. So was one other brother. The rest were granted status despite not having disclosed their relationship with terrorist organizations.

But that Khadr family has had ties to terrorist groups and arrived in the country as Al Qaeda supporters. Papa Khadr was a good friend of Bin Laden and it was he who raised and funnelled money to Al Qaeda.

Mom and Dad enrolled Omar and his two other brothers in Al Qaeda training camps when they lived in Afghanistan.

One of the brothers was shot during the battle that killed the father and wounded Omar. He is a paraplegic and we are caring for him to this day. He lives in Toronto.

Sister Zaineb is perhaps the focal point of my enmity toward this family. She may not be in Canada today but was unrepentant in her support of terrorism. She and her mother profess great hatred toward "the west".

I could go on and you may rightfully argue that the attitude and behaviour of Omar's family should not influence the outcome of his civil suit against the Canadian government.

But I do wonder how this family managed to get to Canada and how our immigration people had not vetted them more effectively. The whole batch should never have been granted visas or landed status.

Papa Khadr was imprisoned somewhere in the world and his release, because he was a naturalized Canadian, was brokered by PM Chretien. So it seems that in that case the government did use whatever diplomatic strength it had, to get the father out of jail.

One wonders whether the betrayal of Canada by the father made the next Canadian government more reluctant to intervene on the side of Omar.

As for the money given to Omar, well, that's on us as taxpayers, isn't it? Brian, it feels like way too much.

It is my belief that while his release was delayed, he was finally released from the illegal detention at Gitmo and it was the Canadian government in negotiation with the US that made that happen. He has been supported every step of the way and now he is a very rich man.

Why does that offend? Well, it is not the government that has to pony up. It is the taxpayer, you and me.

My feeling is that Omar should be supported and rehabilitated and educated. We do not benefit from his participation in society if he is angry and disaffected. It is in our best interest to counter the evil inherent in the education received at the hands of his father and his instructors at terrorist camps.

But that should be enough in this case. Our obligations to this man should not include making him wealthy beyond what any other Canadian has the opportunity to expect.

The $10 million awarded was an out of court settlement because the government felt that they would lose the case and that the money to be awarded could have been much higher.

My anger toward his family leads me to be suspicious of this young man and his motives. He smiles and says all the right things but does he love his country? At one point in his life, he did not and I do not blame him for that. That's on his parents but I do need to believe that he is grateful to be home and grateful to be a Canadian.

He professes to be a changed person and happy to be home in Canada, in Edmonton I believe.

Because he spent his formative years educated by a terrorist supporting father and mother and indoctrinated in terrorist camps, I do hope that provision was made to monitor the use of the money awarded to him. Any attempts to transfer the funds off shore should be suspect and investigated.

Sounding somewhat uncharitable,

George





morris crumley
Lawrenceville, GA, USA
Posts: 1250
Re: Omar Khadr, still on the map...
Posted on: 7/30/2017 9:11:08 AM
This is wonderful news!

Perhaps one day the United States can award millions of dollars to a jihad-US citizen for killing and maiming-for-life Canadian soldiers!


Me...I pay homage to Sergeant First Class Christopher Speer killed by Omar effin` Khadr...leaving behind a grieving widow and two children, and Sergeant First Class Layne Morris of US Special Forces blinded for life by a grenade thrown by effin` Omar Khadr.

---------------
"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
Posts: 5560
Re: Omar Khadr, still on the map...
Posted on: 7/30/2017 11:27:46 AM

Quote:

This is wonderful news!

Perhaps one day the United States can award millions of dollars to a jihad-US citizen for killing and maiming-for-life Canadian soldiers!


It depends on whether you see them as soldiers or illegal combatants.


Morris, as much as I despise the family, Khadr's case against the government was well founded.

His rights under the Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms were clearly violated. He did not receive prompt and clear support of the government for the illegal detention in Gitmo and the frankly suspect legal actions taken against him in a military court.

I disagree with the amount offered by the government in an attempt to avoid going to court.

The apology extended for the failure to come to his aid as he was illegally detained for 10 years in a foreign country was perhaps over the top. It was necessary to correct the errors made in support of a Canadian citizen. But I think that that was sufficient.

They brought him home to serve the rest of his sentence in a Canadian prison. He was paroled as I anticipated that he would be.

If Khadr killed a US soldier, Sgt. Spears, and there is debate as to whether he was the one who threw the grenade, I do consider that the man killed could just have easily been a Canadian.

One wonders how the Canadian government would have dealt with a Canadian who was violating our laws by fighting in a foreign war and who killed a Canadian soldier. I would like to think that Omar would have been charged under our current laws governing support for acts of terrorism and engaging in acts of terrorism.

But and it is a big but, he would also have been subject to the laws and sentences described in the Canada Young Offenders Act because in the end, we would consider him to be a child. We do have instances where young offenders have been charged and tried in adult court. That too was a possibility.

Fodder for discussion is the legitimacy of the presence of a US led coalition including Canadians, in Afghanistan.
What if it had been an Afghanistan citizen who had thrown the grenade that killed Sgt. Spears? Would that have made a difference or would the perpetrator have been accused of war crimes as he objected to a foreign invasion of his country?

As I recall, Omar and his father and brothers were fighting with the Taliban at the time. Misguided as I think that they are, they may well be as ideologically committed to expulsion of invaders as we would be.

I think that the US needs to do some soul searching about the lengthy detention of people without charging them of anything, and the legitimacy of charges brought forth in military courts against civilians. There are people in your country who are questioning those very things. "Illegal combatant" is a term coined by the US to justify the detention of people in a war that is still going on. And yet they are not POW are they?

Having said all of that, I just wish that the Khadr clan had not been granted the rights of citizenship in our country. That is an embarrassment.


Cheers,

George

morris crumley
Lawrenceville, GA, USA
Posts: 1250
Re: Omar Khadr, still on the map...
Posted on: 7/31/2017 9:29:25 AM
To question the legitimacy of the US actions in Afghanistan is the right of anyone...and it is also idiocy.

The Taliban, who controlled Afghanistan, allowed AL-Qaeda training camps and operation control for the attack on the United States that killed 3,000 civilians. This after having been warned by the Clinton administration that Afghanistan would be held responsible for any attacks against the US by AL-Qaeda.

A people, who profess to be at war with us...who wear no uniform...recognize no limitations on cruelty...deliberately target, as a matter of course, civilians..and have signed no international code in the conduct of war are "illegal combatants." It is not a term of rationalization. In fact, it is a term that is far too mild for them.

Yes, the war is still going on...and will be for a hundred years thanks to the navel-gazing stupidity of the Western nations.

I thank God every day that fools and lunatics were not running things during World War Two. We would never have won anything if led by the idiocy of today.

I think your country needs to examine it`s sanity. But your not alone. It has been more than fifteen years since KSM and his cohorts were captured. They are in the midst of a "military tribunal" that may well go on for forty years. The last time I heard about it , months were being tied up determining whether or not female members of the court would be required to cover their heads at all times in the courtroom.

Proof that the American system of Military Justice is as full of lunatics and fools and PC horseshit as so much of the rest of my country today.

Sorry, but I am damn angry about what`s going on and this bit about Canada deciding to reward the killing of US soldiers has me in no charitable or friendly mood. As I indicated, and I was not being sarcastic, I wish we could reward a US citizen for killing Canadian soldiers with millions of dollars and see how you guys like it.

Respects, Morris
---------------
"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
Posts: 5560
Re: Omar Khadr, still on the map...
Posted on: 7/31/2017 10:12:12 AM

Quote:
As I indicated, and I was not being sarcastic, I wish we could reward a US citizen for killing Canadian soldiers with millions of dollars and see how you guys like it.


Then you should send some money to Major Harry Schmidt, cowboy supreme, who bombed the first Canadians to arrive in Afghanistan and who were training at the Tarnac Farms training site.

Reprimanded and called irresponsible and demonstrating poor flight discipline by your Air Force, Schmidt had the temerity to sue the AF for releasing his personal information. The suit was tossed out.

This fool killed 4 Canadian soldiers and severely wounded another 8. Those were our first losses in combat since Korea.

After dropping the bomb either he or his partner said, "I hope that that was the right thing to do."


Your suggestion is odious in the extreme Morris.


Khadr was not rewarded for killing a US soldier. He was. awarded money as compensation for the failure of his government to respect his rights as a Canadian under the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

Our government allowed him, a child, to languish in your internationally maligned prison at GITMO and to be tortured, again illegally by your military.

They failed him and whether we agree with what he may have done, his constitutional rights do not disappear.





morris crumley
Lawrenceville, GA, USA
Posts: 1250
Re: Omar Khadr, still on the map...
Posted on: 7/31/2017 10:47:08 AM
I`m sorry George, did I miss something. Was not Schmidt convicted, fined, and reprimanded for his actions in a friendly fire incident? Was not his ludicrous law suit thrown out?

Your trying to compare a "friendly fire" incident..which occurs in war time, either due to poor communication, stupidity, bad judgement at night..there are all kinds of factors.

Omar Khadir did not "accidentally drop a grenade George. He was not a "friendly' making a bad judgement.

You know as well as I that the Canadians were having live-fire training, at night, on a range that had been a Taliban range. Five US pilots testified that it was "reasonable" for Schmidt to believe he and his flight leader were under an attack. Schmidt`s stupidity was in failing to heed the flight controllers order to "standby" until it could be ascertained if they were possible friendlies. While Schmidt was held to account for his actions..it was also a fact that there was insufficient communications and co-ordination between coalition forces involved in the early days of that coalition.

But we didn`t give the idiot millions of dollars!

I am well aware that an international bunch of fools want the US to bring all the captured illegal combatants in a terrorist war back to prisons in the US where the communities that house the bastards, the civilians that live there, as well as the prison facility itself can become targets of terror attacks for daring to imprison the Jihad fanatics.

Respects, Morris
---------------
"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
Posts: 5560
Re: Omar Khadr, still on the map...
Posted on: 7/31/2017 10:53:13 AM
Now we wouldn't want facts to get in the way of an emotional outburst would we Morris.

I have included the Supreme Court of Canada judgement in the Canada vs Khadr case in 2010.

The Supreme court concluded that Canada participated in acts which violated the rights of Omar Khadr.


The US prison at Gitmo and the procedures followed have been condemned internationally. The Canadian government was complicit in allowing the rights of one of its citizens to be violated in a foreign country.


Quote:
"The deprivation of [Khadr's] right to liberty and security of the person is not in accordance with the principles of fundamental justice," the court ruled.

"The interrogation of a youth detained without access to counsel, to elicit statements about serious criminal charges while knowing that the youth had been subjected to sleep deprivation and while knowing that the fruits of the interrogations would be shared with the prosecutors, offends the most basic Canadian standards about the treatment of detained youth suspects."



Text of the Supreme Court judgement:

[Read More]


Morris, this judgement has upset a lot of Canadians. There has even been a fund raising effort to send money to the wife of Sgt. Speers. (or is it Spears?)

Parts of it upset me but so does the existence of Gitmo and the kangaroo courts under military rule used to judge people.

The term, "illegal combatant" is not recognized anywhere in law. It was conjured up in the US to justify keeping people for years in prison without charge.

You may be pleased with how your country has conducted its treatment of captives but I would not be and certainly I am unhappy that my government, on a couple of occasions has gone along with the excesses of US "justice". That is shameful on our part, no matter what I think of the Khadr family.

There is little point in writing a constitution and a Charter of Rights and Freedoms if we are going to ignore it at our convenience. It is the law of the land.


George


morris crumley
Lawrenceville, GA, USA
Posts: 1250
Re: Omar Khadr, still on the map...
Posted on: 7/31/2017 1:18:25 PM
A Canadian was captured on the battlefield in a nation...not Canada..fighting against the people of Canada, fighting for the enemy of the people of Canada ...and the only reason he did not kill and maim Canadian soldiers is by chance. And Canada just awarded this POS millions of dollars!

And that is sheer lunacy.

Respects, Morris
---------------
"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
Posts: 5560
Re: Omar Khadr, still on the map...
Posted on: 7/31/2017 2:08:43 PM
By all means Morris, continue to ignore what I have tried to explain to you.

You have a constitution. We hear about it all the time.

I presume that the rights of a citizen must be protected under that constitution.

A child involved in combat was captured by US forces and detained for 10 years under a system of questionable justice.

Your own people question the way prisoners have been treated at Gitmo and the fact that the military tribunals are involved in adjudicating cases against people who are not combatants under the US definition. How does that work BTW?

They aren't military people but here they are, judged by military courts.

It is a shameful system and Canada was complicit in allowing one of its citizens to have his rights ignored.

Read the judgement Morris or continue to rant.

It is a more complex issue than you appear to want to understand.


brian grafton
Victoria, BC, Canada
Posts: 1401
Re: Omar Khadr, still on the map...
Posted on: 7/31/2017 6:34:41 PM
Morris, you say:
Quote:
A Canadian was captured on the battlefield in a nation...not Canada..fighting against the people of Canada, fighting for the enemy of the people of Canada ...and the only reason he did not kill and maim Canadian soldiers is by chance. And Canada just awarded this POS millions of dollars!


A boy was living with his father in Afghanistan and was attacked by foreign troops. The reason Canadian soldiers weren't killed in this instance is because Canadian soldiers were not the ones attacking.

This is assuming that he threw the grenade that killed one US Seal and maimed another, of course.

Omar Khadr was granted money by one Canadian government not for killing anyone but because another Canadian government provided him with no aid or assistance, no support, no representation during a decade of incarceration. I'm not sure a payout is the appropriate way to compensate him for what Canada neglected to do for him at the time, but that's the path our current government took.

Cheers
Brian G
---------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly.

"The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
Posts: 5560
Re: Omar Khadr, still on the map...
Posted on: 7/31/2017 8:23:02 PM

Quote:
You know as well as I that the Canadians were having live-fire training, at night, on a range that had been a Taliban range. Five US pilots testified that it was "reasonable" for Schmidt to believe he and his flight leader were under an attack. Schmidt`s stupidity was in failing to heed the flight controllers order to "standby" until it could be ascertained if they were possible friendlies. While Schmidt was held to account for his actions..it was also a fact that there was insufficient communications and co-ordination between coalition forces involved in the early days of that coalition.


5 of his peers found his actions reasonable. What a joke? Of course they would.

Good thing that his superiors saw Schmidt's actions for what they were. BTW, he is smug SOB in my humble opinion.


To my explanation on Khadr's award by the government: I think that you are being deliberately obtuse Morris. You have stated numerous times on this thread that Khadr was being rewarded for killing an American soldier. You have been told by me, by Brian that that is just not so.

Read the judgement by the Supreme Court. It determined that the government of the day had failed to protect the rights and freedoms of a citizen under our laws.

Were they supposed to toss the case out or judge it on its merits?

The government had the choice to fight the court case. Instead it chose a settlement to avoid that. Some disagree with that and feel that the government should have fought it to the end.


morris crumley
Lawrenceville, GA, USA
Posts: 1250
Re: Omar Khadr, still on the map...
Posted on: 7/31/2017 10:04:46 PM
George, read again..."five pilots said it was reasonable for Schmidt to believe he and his flight leader were under attack. Nowhere does it say that they found his actions to be reasonable. It is entirely possible to find an action to be wrong...but mitigated by a reasonable belief that a threat did exist.

And, again...we didn`t give eight million dollars to the smug SOB! Maybe we should have.

---------------
"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
Posts: 5560
Re: Omar Khadr, still on the map...
Posted on: 8/1/2017 5:51:11 AM
Now I think that you're just baiting Morris.

It is unusual for you to be so uncharitable and incapable of careful analysis of the situation.

Surely you know intuitively that there are many subtexts to this story. You choose to address only the death of Sgt. Speers.

George

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
Posts: 5560
Re: Omar Khadr, still on the map...
Posted on: 8/3/2017 7:04:43 AM
Brian's original post and Morris' screeds have prompted me to review some facts.

The Canadian government of the day (2002) did send a letter to the US government indicating that the detention of a child at GITMO was not in the best interest of that child.


Quote:
The letter notes that the U.S. and Canada have laws providing for special treatment of young suspects.

"As such, the Government of Canada believes it would be inappropriate for Mr. Omar Khadr to be transferred to the detention facilities at the American naval base at Guantanamo Bay," the letter said.

The letter also expressed concern over "ambiguity" in early accounts of Khadr's role in the events leading up to his capture. A section that apparently describes the conflict was edited.

Despite Khadr's plea, there are US accounts suggesting that he could not have thrown the grenade that killed Sgt. Speers.


[Read More]

So as mild as this protest to the US government was, the government did indicate that Canada has different laws for young offenders and reminded them that so do they.


But beyond that, and unless something was going on behind the scenes, the government was not too forceful with the US. Nothing new there considering that we were in an era of trying to prove that we were equally good at war making as we were at peace making.


I mentioned before that Omar Khadr was assigned military defence lawyers who were critical of the Canadian government's efforts to get Omar out of GITMO.

Unlike other western nations who worked hard to repatriate their citizens, civilians, to face judgement at home, Canada was a laggard.

USN Lt.-Cmdr. William Kuebler, Pentagon appointed legal advisor to Omar Khadre


Quote:
"It's certainly shocking as we sit here today that Canada is the last western country to tolerate the detention of one of its citizens at Guantanamo Bay,"



I also note that with the out of court settlement awarding money to Khadr that the Conservative Party, Her Majesty's Loyal Opposition, have been active on the US right wing media circuit. Without mentioning the circumstances surrounding Sgt. Speer's death, they solicited TV time on FOX and other outlets to express that all of Canada deplored this settlement given to Khadr.

Never mentioned was the circumstances of the battle, that the building in which "illegal combatant" Omar Khadr was hiding had just been bombed to hell by US forces, killing most of the inhabitants or that Khadr was found wounded under a pile of rubble. This called into question whether he could have thrown the grenade that killed Sgt. Speer.

Anyway, the Conservative Party is making hay out of this but the recent foray into the world of conservative US media outlets is irresponsible. They are trying to chip away at the frankly unfathomable fascination that America seems to have with our PM Justin Trudeau. He and his party have not accomplished a great deal unfortunately.

More importantly, we are on the eve of important free trade talks between the three NAFTA partners and it does not behove us to have the last thought in Donald Trump's head that Canada has slighted the USA. The man's rather amoebic attention span could scupper the talks if his last thought about Canada is negative.

I believe that politicians should be as critical of their government as necessary so long as they keep it, in house. But they should not travel to other countries to criticize their own for political purposes like getting elected in the next go round.





George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
Posts: 5560
Re: Omar Khadr, still on the map...
Posted on: 8/3/2017 7:22:51 AM
This case bothers me because there it seems that certain evidence was ignored or altered.

Khadr may have been railroaded.

This piece, from the National Observer. (note, founded by journalists whose motives are all suspect as we know. ), seems to indicate that there is some evidence that Omar could not have thrown the grenade.

Also rarely mentioned was that he was under attack by US and Afghani forces.

Anyway, some interesting stuff here.

[Read More]

morris crumley
Lawrenceville, GA, USA
Posts: 1250
Re: Omar Khadr, still on the map...
Posted on: 8/3/2017 2:28:08 PM
Yes, poor little Omar joins the list of the left`s "innocent."

Lee Harvey Oswald was a "patsy" railroaded by right-wingers. (never mind he posed for a picture with the pistol that was the same caliber as killed Officer Tippet, and the same rifle that he told his wife he used to try and assassinate an anti-communist retired US General with.)

Mumia Abu-Jamal was "an innocent man" (though the police officer who he killed was killed by the gun Mumia Jamal carried...Jamal was shot in the stomach by a bullet fired from the dead policeman`s gun...and Jamal was wearing a shoulder holster for a pistol as he lay bleeding on the street. But, no, "it was a mystery 'running man' who killed the cop.

Joanne Chesimard AKA Assata Shakur was an innocent who "had nothing to do with the shootout at the New Jersey Tunnel that left one Highway Patrol trooper dead along with her fellow BLA cohort. She was wounded in the shootout and had nothing to with it (although she had three full magazines of ammo and sixteen unspent shell casings in her handbag.)

I am certain the 15 year-old Omar, the Omar who had pictures taken of him with his AK-47...and pictures of him making bombs and IED`s...I am certain that that poor 15 year old had nothing to do with the killing and maiming of two US soldiers. I`m quite certain that little Omar was just sitting in that building eating his porridge and reading Edna St. Vincent Malley while shit was raining down all around him and he would never throw a grenade, or fire a weapon.

Little Omar has his limits. Making bombs...OK. Throwing a grenade....na! Never.

And he was "buried" by, what...fifteen, twenty pounds of rubble? I bet it took all of ten seconds to brush aside that "rubble" that was "concealing" little Omar.

Meanwhile, as the article points out..just like the crumpled bicyclist on the side of the road who died because, "he wasn`t wearing a helmet", Sgt. Speer neglected his Kevlar...and therefore is somewhat responsible, I guess, for the jagged metal shrapnel from the grenade(that little Omar would never throw) that penetrated his brain and ended his life.

And then there is that entire business about differing accounts of what happens in combat. Everyone knows that, in combat, people who`s heart rates are racing, and adrenaline is pumping...are dispassionate observers, calmly documenting in their minds the same point of view about all that is occurring.

No, the US and Afghan forces were attacking...and Omar was just minding his own business, porridge, and poetry.

Respects, Morris
---------------
"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
Posts: 5560
Re: Omar Khadr, still on the map...
Posted on: 8/3/2017 7:05:44 PM
Brilliant use of sarcasm Morris, none of which remotely refutes the fact that a young kid may have been railroaded in a very flawed US military judicial system.

Any concerns with illegal detention, extraordinary rendition, with torture?

You reject anything that may indicate that the evidence against Omar Khadr was flimsy or concocted.

But you don't say how you know so you? Just a gut feeling Morris?

Perhaps you should try a more objective approach.


morris crumley
Lawrenceville, GA, USA
Posts: 1250
Re: Omar Khadr, still on the map...
Posted on: 8/3/2017 9:36:48 PM
98 of the 137 combat deaths suffered by Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan were by IED and other improvised mines similar to the explosives that a captured videocassette shows being made and assembled by, among others, 15 year-old Omar Khadr.

Respects, Morris
---------------
"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
Posts: 5560
Re: Omar Khadr, still on the map...
Posted on: 8/4/2017 6:39:25 AM

Quote:
98 of the 137 combat deaths suffered by Canadian soldiers in Afghanistan were by IED and other improvised mines similar to the explosives that a captured videocassette shows being made and assembled by, among others, 15 year-old Omar Khadr.

Respects, Morris
--morris crumley


Proving what Morris? Canadians know how are people were killed in a war that I am beginning to think had no practical purpose but was a political venture in support of what seems to be an endless stream of US directed forays into foreign countries.

Every one of those deaths was commemorated in a citizen's movement to honour the fallen as people gathered on the highway overpasses to stand vigil as our soldiers passed beneath in the hearse, as the bodies were repatriated.

That Canadian kid, at the behest of his father and mother, had been indoctrinated into a terrorist culture?

We know that.

At least you seem to realize that he was only 15 at the time of his wounding and the death of the American soldier.

But please enlighten. In your analysis, does this prove that Omar Khadr killed Sgt. Speer?

Do you subscribe to the "where there is smoke there is fire" type of justice?

I'll ask again Morris. How do you feel about the detention of people at GITMO for years without charges laid or without access to civil courts in many cases?

How do you feel about extraordinary rendition often resulting in the torture of captives in countries that are not restricted by the US laws governing the treatment of prisoners?

How do you feel about the use of torture at GITMO to force confessions?




morris crumley
Lawrenceville, GA, USA
Posts: 1250
Re: Omar Khadr, still on the map...
Posted on: 8/4/2017 8:34:56 AM
Proving that the actions taken by the government of Canada are a betrayal of the men and women you sent to war.
---------------
"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
Posts: 5560
Re: Omar Khadr, still on the map...
Posted on: 8/4/2017 10:17:51 AM

Quote:
Proving that the actions taken by the government of Canada are a betrayal of the men and women you sent to war.
--morris crumley


Proving nothing at all Morris except that you have lost the ability to analyze and reason.

I'm pretty much done here.

You won't respond to queries.



John R. Price
Wilkes-Barre, PA, USA
Posts: 537
Re: Omar Khadr, still on the map...
Posted on: 8/4/2017 10:38:25 AM
No George its that your queries aren't really relevant to the core issue.

Should the tens of thousands of Hitler Youth indoctrinated into a terrorist culture many at the behest of their card carrying Nazi parents been given cash settlements for their years of captivity, forced labor and torture in the Gulags?

Doesn't criminal law provide that those aiding or abetting a criminal act share responsibility for that criminal act? If so his being there and even getting water and food for those doing the actual killing make him partially responsible for that killing.

And yes the actions of the government prove a betrayal in the eyes of many you are just not one of the many.


---------------
A battle long forgotten by our country in a war never understood by our country.
"to satisfy our endless needs and justify our bloody deeds, in the name of destiny and in the name of God"


George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
Posts: 5560
Re: Omar Khadr, still on the map...
Posted on: 8/4/2017 11:00:26 AM
Thanks for weighing in John.

But both you and Morris fail to acknowledge what the rest of the western world sees and that is that your country was detaining civilians in a prison for years without laying charges. That policy has been universally condemned.

And the US coined a term, "illegal combatant" to justify the detention of these people and to try them, when ready, through military tribunal.

Why do you think that so many other countries worked tirelessly to repatriate their citizens from GITMO? It is because they defended their citizens even while holding their noses at times because that is what nations do. They do not permit their citizens to be abused illegally at the hands of another nation.

There are international norms and agreements that govern the treatment of young offenders who may have committed a crime.

My queries were relevant because Omar Khadr was kept in prison at GITMO for 10 years.

He was at GITMO for 2 years imprisoned with grown men, some of whom were dangerous. During that time he was denied legal counsel.

International norms recognize that young offenders require special treatment to ensure rehabilitation and reintegration into society.

He languished at GITMO for 3 years before any charges were laid. He was not charged under any war crime statutes under US military law.

And those charges included murder which is a criminal code violation and yet it was the military that chose to try him.

The charge actually read, "murder in violation of the laws of war." I don't even know whether that exists under international law.

He was also imprisoned as a child which violates many international conventions.

Look, here is an analysis of the Omar Khadr case by Human Rights watch. It is worth a read.


[Read More]



Quote:
And yes the actions of the government prove a betrayal in the eyes of many you are just not one of the many.


And those many, like you and Morris have failed to spend any time to study the case and how his government let him down. And yes, the boy had rights under our constitution and under international law. Canada was complicit in allowing the US to violate those rights.

Thanks for weighing in,

George





John R. Price
Wilkes-Barre, PA, USA
Posts: 537
Re: Omar Khadr, still on the map...
Posted on: 8/4/2017 12:29:42 PM
There you go again stating that the position you agree with is the only right position and the universally accepted position. The problem boils down to the definition of civilian and that of illegal combatant, and it doesn't matter who coined the phrase or when it was coined because it is in fact happening. What is a citizen of a foreign country fighting in a war not in his country while not a member of a recognized national army and not in any uniform? Then what do you call any acts of violence, such as killing or wounding a soldier of a recognized army and in uniform that ill defined person commits? And what punishment do you inflict for those acts?

Now maybe I'm wrong but the penalty for being caught spying or covert actions done out of uniform has been death for a hell of a long time. Thinking Johns Andre and the English speaking German infiltrators during the bulge as example. Also and again I could be wrong but I don't remember this kind of result over guerrilla's caught in the act during WWII at least over trials by military court or lengthy imprisonment awaiting formal charges at Nuremburg.

AS for 15 year olds fighting in wars they have been doing it since the first tribes of cavemen started throwing rocks at each other. Its only since the dawn of the 20th century that children didn't make up a large percentage of the civilized worlds military and in the underdeveloped world I would venture to say that even today that is the rule rather than the exception.

I think my biggest point is that warfare is changing in some ways and staying the same or reverting back in others. New phrases have to be coined to identify the changes. New laws have to be written to define the crimes and punishments. But as always the anewers and laws aren't to be found on either the extreme right or left but in the compromise that is the center. Your view or my view isn't the only view or the only right view and vocal minorities aren't the universe some claim them to be.
---------------
A battle long forgotten by our country in a war never understood by our country.
"to satisfy our endless needs and justify our bloody deeds, in the name of destiny and in the name of God"


George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
Posts: 5560
Re: Omar Khadr, still on the map...
Posted on: 8/4/2017 4:08:40 PM
1. Illegal combatant or unlawful combatant. The phrase has been used for a long time. It was not a US invention as I stated.

2. The Geneva Conventions of the UN to which the US is a signatory does recognize that as a status. A person detained must be a POW or a detainee without privilege, an illegal combatant.


Quote:
that every person in enemy hands must have some status under international law — that of either a prisoner of war or a civilian. There is no intermediate status: nobody in enemy hands can be outside the law.


If there is any doubt about the status, then the person must be considered a civilian and then is subject to the laws of civilian court, not military.

3. In 2006, the US passed laws (Military Commissions Act) to give the US President extraordinary rights to declare a combatant, "illegal". Very convenient don't you think considering that GITMO was already full of people who had been detained for years without charges being laid. They could then be given the status of "illegal".

4. It matters not that 15 year olds have engaged in combat. We, the international community, recognize that children are not sufficiently mature enough to make responsible decisions and they are susceptible to the influences of adults. In Khadr's case this was the father.

Khadr's age is of critical importance because the civilized world is required to view children and child soldiers differently. We must look at their sentences, if charged, differently with an eye on rehabilitation and reintegration.

There are programmes in place to assist child soldiers to return to society as productive individuals. These programmes of remediation are ongoing in several African nations.

Most of our countries are trying to find ways to keep our youth from finding resonance with terrorist groups.

Omar Khadr did not receive those considerations from the US government or the US military.


John, I am not an outlier here. The Khadr case has received much criticism from international and US concerns.

Khadr received a great deal of help from US citizens and legal professionals who felt that the actions of the US government were illegal and still do.

Khadr received professional assistance from lawyers in the US military who were appalled at the way that the military tribunal railroaded this boy.


I think that you and Morris have reacted emotionally. This kid may have killed a US soldier. Note, it was never proved that he threw the grenade. There was a lot of, "it must have been him, he was the last one". Hardly the stuff of a solid legal argument, is it?

Whether we agree with Khadr's mere presence at the firefight or not, he was there and he and others were about to be killed by legal combatants from Afghan security and US forces. And so they fought back.


To reiterate, Omar Khadr was NOT awarded money for killing a US soldier.

His court case in Canada was based on the assumption that the Canadian government abrogated its responsibility in failing to show interest in repatriating the boy from his prison in GITMO and ignoring his rights as a Canadian while he was incarcerated.

I can only speculate as to why PM Harper and the Conservatives chose to leave him there to rot. It has a lot to do with making political hay with the supporting base for the party. It has a lot to do with currying favour with the US government, to indicate that Canada was tough on terror.

Our Supreme Court found that the Government of Canada breached the rights of Omar Khadr as described in our constitution including the Charter of Rights and Freedoms.

Most egregious was probably the fact that Canadian intelligence officials actually questioned the boy while he was in GITMO, in 2003. He would have been 16 at that time I think.

The Supreme Court was upset that the Canadian officials put him through rigorous examination at the end of a 3 week stint of sleep deprivation at the hands of his jailers at GITMO.

However, Khadr has challenged the government 3X at the Supreme Court level and each time they have found in his favour, ruling on different aspects of the case.

His rights were violated and the Supreme Court said that because he was a Canadian citizen, the Canadian government had a "higher threshold" of responsibility toward him than did the US government.


Last point. I have already stated that we made a huge mistake in allowing his miserable family to emigrate to Canada. I despise them.

But Omar was born here and as such, he has the rights of all Canadians. Those rights were violated. The Canadian government had to address that fact and were compelled to do so by the courts.


The money? Too much I think but it would have been a lot more had the government not settled.


Cheers,

George






morris crumley
Lawrenceville, GA, USA
Posts: 1250
Re: Omar Khadr, still on the map...
Posted on: 8/5/2017 8:12:51 AM
That`s really great...send men and women to war...then 'commemorate them" as their dead bodies come home, then give millions to a little bastard who was killing them!

The soldier, if they survive, get their limited benefits, maybe a medal to wear, a thank you...but the enemy soldier...gets millions of dollars.

We do it too. We send our best off to fight for us, many return, far too often, to substandard care at the single payer system we call the VA. Where incompetence and corruption...and in some cases downright neglect is "tolerated" by leaders who paint their portraits and get credos for holding bike races to "honor our veterans" but who never seem to honor them enough to clean up the healthcare system they depend upon. Or his successor, who allows the VA to, if possible, get even worse.

For years US service personnel were subjected to water-boarding as a part of SERE training and I never heard one damn person "who cares so much for our soldiers" demand that that "torture" stop. Nobody had a problem with it until it was used to get information from four high-value...enemy prisoners. Never heard John McCain say one damn thing about US soldiers being "tortured" as training. But then, to him perpetual war is the most important thing, where US troops are being killed and maimed in every conceivable country on earth.

You join the military, your family must make all kinds of sacrifice. Moves to places all around the country...the world. Your kids may get a great experience..but never seem to be able to keep steady friends because as soon as they get settled-in "new posting kids." If your lucky, you serve and survive to live a "normal" rest of your life. If not so lucky..you encounter some POS like little Omar, and return in a coffin..or blinded. You get to worry constantly about money, and how to make ends meet on military pay. And, sometimes you get to spend weeks and even months getting the treatment at hospital you need while some government bureaucrat phonies up the waiting list to make it seem that you got right in. In some cases, you die while on the "real waiting list."

And the very country that you give your heart, your soul, and your blood for...gives the fricken enemy millions of dollars and treats him as some "victim."

It is as shameful a conduct as I can imagine because it stabs your military in the back. It is betrayal.

Little Omar is on that captured videocassette , they are making bombs and IED`s. They are in that very house where the fight occurred while making them...and there are scenes elsewhere as the explosives are being placed. The argument that little Omar was just sitting there, minding his own business while enemy bomb-makers were under attack by coalition forces is bull.



Respects, Morris
---------------
"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
Posts: 5560
Re: Omar Khadr, still on the map...
Posted on: 8/5/2017 10:13:08 AM
Arrgghh! No-one is saying that this boy was not involved Morris.

I am saying that his constitutional rights do not disappear because he may or may not be involved in something illegal.

I presume that you are familiar with the concept of constitutional rights.

You would be better off examining America's illegal detention of people at GITMO, the use of torture to extract confessions, extraordinary rendition of people to be tortured in foreign prisons, detention without legal counsel, and lack of concern for the conventions governing those captured on battlefields and lack of concern for the conventions governing the treatment of child soldiers.

I have provided sufficient background and information to explain why the Canadian government made the decision that it did.

I have even indicated that I have concerns about it. But the defence of Omar's constitutional rights is not one of them.

You choose to ignore what I have said.

So I am out. My head hurts from banging it on the wall.


morris crumley
Lawrenceville, GA, USA
Posts: 1250
Re: Omar Khadr, still on the map...
Posted on: 8/5/2017 11:00:28 AM
"Something illegal!" He didn`t play grab-ass at the playground George. He didn`t skim a bankcard. He didn`t smoke dope in his car while driving!

He was committing treason by fighting against his country.

Lets say that GITMO didn`t exist. Lets say that little Omar was returned to Canada after his jihad vacation of a few years. What then George?

You want to try and convict him of treason for helping kill coalition soldiers in civil court...how do you prove it? How does anyone manage to get a conviction in a civilian court when any competent lawyer will demand to see the forensic evidence. The fingerprints on the gun. Gun shot residue testing. Measurements taken of the relationship of the accused to the victims bodies. You know, all the shit that can`t be done on a fricken battlefield!

Was a warrant obtained? Was it properly served? Was he advised of his rights before he said anything ( Which was "F..K America! Kill me!")

That videocassette that was found in searching the rubble...was it in plain sight...was it listed on a search warrant of the rubble.

It is absurd to treat battlefield illegal combatants as a purse snatcher or car thief.

Respects, Morris


---------------
"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."

John R. Price
Wilkes-Barre, PA, USA
Posts: 537
Re: Omar Khadr, still on the map...
Posted on: 8/5/2017 12:36:12 PM
George, Morris and much less I aren't ignoring the background and information we are ridiculing the logic and reasoning of it. To but it as nicely as possible we think it is idiotic.

Let me ask you if in your justice system can children be tried and convicted as adults on certain charges? Murder, attempted murder, conspiracy to commit murder, accomplice to murder and treason on multiple counts I think might just rise to the occasion. And yes I agree his age and family situation might mitigate the sentence handed down but not determine if there should be one.
---------------
A battle long forgotten by our country in a war never understood by our country.
"to satisfy our endless needs and justify our bloody deeds, in the name of destiny and in the name of God"


George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
Posts: 5560
Re: Omar Khadr, still on the map...
Posted on: 8/5/2017 1:40:34 PM
Hi John,

Yes there are cases whereby a young offender may be tried in adult court. The circumstances have to be extreme and the courts decide where the young offender shall be tried. It happens rarely but it does happen. For the most part, we try to observe the international conventions regarding crimes committed by young offenders.

A reminder though. Khadr was not tried in Canada or charged. He was charged, tried and convicted by a military tribunal.

He received an 8 year sentence when he pleaded guilty in the military court of, "murder against the laws of war".

That too is suspect John. That charge did not exist so far as I know and certainly did not exist at the time that he was alleged to have committed the act that killed Sgt. Speer. The Act that purports to support this law that he broke came into existence in 2006 via the Military Commission Act.

Omar pleaded guilty just so that he could come home to complete the rest of his sentence in Canadian prisons. Even then, the government shifted him from one maximum security prison to another. PM Harper was determined that Canada would not appear to be soft on terrorism.

One of the criticisms of the military tribunal court system that the US decided to employ against these detainees is that the military may operate its judicial system without the full scrutiny of your constitution.

You can see then that the charges to which he pleaded guilty were invented years after the crime took place. Very convenient and your civilian lawyers and civil rights activists have had a field day with it.

So has the UN:


Quote:
According to the UN, Khadr was the first person since World War II to be prosecuted in a military commission for war crimes committed while still a minor.


Anthony Lake was a former national security adviser in the US. Subsequently he worked for UNICEF (United Nations Children's Fund). He had this to say:


Quote:
"Anyone prosecuted for offences they allegedly committed as a child should be treated in accordance with international juvenile justice standards providing special protections. Omar Khadr should not be prosecuted by a tribunal that is neither equipped nor required to provide these protections and meet these standards.


The UN Secretary-General for children in armed conflict felt that the US was setting a dangerous precedent:


Quote:
He said that the proposed trial by military tribunal violated all international legal norms regarding the treatment of young offenders.

The trial, ""may endanger the status of child soldiers all over the world."[19] "Since World War II, no child has been prosecuted for a war crime,"


Note: Quotes taken from wiki. They all carry references.



I appreciate that you believe that some conviction is warranted. I am not so sure anymore.

Most of the analyses of this case indicate that the evidence presented was circumstantial and no-one actually saw Omar throw the grenade. The witnesses have opposing points of view on whether this boy could have done it.

Those same analyses say that under the US judicial system, not the military system, the case would have been tossed.

The more I read about it, the more I am convinced that he was railroaded by a corrupt system of justice. The whole affair just stinks badly to me.

Thank you for a reasoned and thoughtful response John.

Cheers,

George

John R. Price
Wilkes-Barre, PA, USA
Posts: 537
Re: Omar Khadr, still on the map...
Posted on: 8/5/2017 2:41:41 PM
George the charges weren't made up after the fact. You admit that some form of illegal combatant description existed, that he was there when combat took place, that he actively took some part in that combat, the video shows him taking part in the construction of bombs and IED's, that he is shown with other holding a AK and that he wasn't in uniform or a part of a recognized national military. All of the above existed as a crime before he committed them therefore they can't have been created after the fact.

He didn't commit the crime in Canada nor did he commit the crime against Canadians. By US law and also international civil law the jurisdiction for prosecution lies with the governmental body representing the area and people who the crime was committed against. A foreigner can be tried in the US in he commits a crime in the US and can be tried by a military tribunal if that crime is against a US serviceman in time of war. Plus if I'm not mistaken during war occupied territory or territory under dispute is automatically deemed under martial law with military tribunal responsible for all law enforcement.

As for your quotes responsible people can disagree and there can be both different truths and opinion in both sides of the disagreement. A perfect example can be found with our Supreme Court because in many cases the side of a case that each Justice rules on is many times dependent on his political philosophy because that political philosophy greatly influence his perception and interpretation of the issue at hand. For example a liber is going to have a different interpretation of the Constitution over gin control than a conservative and usually will vote for stricter controls. Its all about perception and and yours isn't the only one or the only one that is at least partially right.
---------------
A battle long forgotten by our country in a war never understood by our country.
"to satisfy our endless needs and justify our bloody deeds, in the name of destiny and in the name of God"


George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
Posts: 5560
Re: Omar Khadr, still on the map...
Posted on: 8/5/2017 4:20:31 PM
John, the US led coalition wasn't fighting a national army.

In effect, we were trying to defeat a bunch of bandits if you like. And we call them all terrorists.

The US was understandably in high dudgeon over the cowardly attack on the twin towers.

But there was no country that could be attacked and defeated was there?

I asked once before but what would the reaction be had Omar been a citizen of Afghanistan who objected to the invasion of foreign powers?

As much as we malign the tactics employed by these people, they do not want western people invading their space.


As for the specific murder charge against Khadr, it only came into existence in 2006. His alleged offence was in 2002 or 2003.

I think that you will find that the international community disagrees with the manner in which the US has prosecuted cases against people from other countries. In some instances, it could not be proved that these people were illegal combatants and after years of detention, they were released without charge.

In other cases, they were repatriated as the home country used diplomatic measures to have them released and dealt with in their own countries.


I have never disputed the fact that Omar Khadr participated in terrorist activities.

Nor do I dispute the fact that he was abandoned by his own government that had a duty to protect his rights under our constitution. But there was nary a protest as the US used extraordinary measures to ensure that these detainees were kept with some patina of legitimacy.

So in this case, I think that I understand the rationale behind the decision of our Supreme Court. They found fault with the government.

Canadian government agents actually shared information gleaned from interviews with Omar, with US intelligence, when they visited him at GITMO. This was a violation of his rights as a Canadian.

The Supremes did not adjudicate anything to do with Omar Khadr's past court cases.

His record in Canada where he served the remainder of his sentence indicates that he was sentenced in a "US youth court". That of course, is false.


There are people who can express the concerns about this case much better than I. I am trying to leave emotion out of it and many Canadians are having trouble with that, expressing some of the same sentiments that you and Morris have expressed.

The Centre for International Policy Studies out of the University of Ottawa tries to promote study and debate about international affairs.

This is its recent report on the Khadr affair, coming after the monetary award was made to Khadr.

Having read it, it seems fair and includes a partial defence of the foreign affairs department of Canada by one of the people involved in the Khadr case.

Among the brief comments made by this person was this:


Quote:
It also deferred unduly to an American government bent on destroying decades of international law and co-operation. Like other American allies, Canada was virtually silent in the face of torture, secret prisons, and abusive detentions carried out by our closest ally. In several cases, the Canadian government failed many of its own citizens.


[Read More]

Cheers,

George

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
Posts: 5560
Re: Omar Khadr, still on the map...
Posted on: 8/5/2017 4:37:22 PM
I am not sure that Americans appreciate how many difficulties have been caused by illegal policies surrounding Guantanamo.

Like Canada, other nations were not quick enough to call the US on what it was doing. Too much toadying.

This is a BBC piece about the Guantanamo 17, the Brits who were kept at GITMO and released and who are the recipients of money from a compensation fund that the British government was compelled to create so as to keep the complaints made by these UK citizens, out of the courts.

We should all note that the US Supreme Court ruled that it was legal for detainees to challenge their detention in US courts.

I find that to be enlightened and it gives me hope. The US Supreme Court seemed to recognize that the US government and military may have been over zealous in the detention of citizens of other countries. That was 2004 and that allowed foreign nationals to challenge the US government and military. Good on the US for that.

Meanwhile Canada's failure to tell the US that co-operation in matters related to the Afghanistan war and terrorism only goes so far. The rights of citizens must still be respected.

Clearly Canada is not the only country that must make amends for its lack of cojones in its relationship with the US.

From the BBC:

[Read More]


Cheers,

George