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 American Civil War Politics (Unmoderated)
AuthorMessage
1stvermont
Vermont, VT, USA
Posts: 67
Look Away!!! Politically Incorrect Thread on Slavery
Posted on: 8/19/2017 12:45:59 PM
The first post will be on how slaves were treated in the confederacy and the south. The second post will be on politically incorrect information on slavery in American and world history.

The slave’s diet and living quarters

“Dey had to feed us an plenty of it, cause us couldnt wuk if dey dident feed us good.”
-Alec Bostwick Georgia Slave Narratives


“There is no question that the slave diet was sufficient to maintain the slave body wight and general health”
-Robert William Fogel The Rise and Fall of American Slavery


To purchase an expensive slave and not feed them, would not give the purchaser a return on their purchase. As owners knew, slaves need energy to work. If you underfed them, then you would lose out on their potential production. Slave’s food consumption passed the free man’s consumption of 1879 by 10%. They averaged 6oz of meat a day (1 oz below free whites) and ate a variety of fruits/vegetables/grains. The slave’s diet exceeds the modern [1964] recommended daily intake. Two separate studies concluded slaves eat 4,200 calories a day not including game and fishing. Poor whites use to come to large plantations and beg for food from the slaves. The federal census of 1860 determined that the ordinary plantation was well quartered with 5.2 slaves per house compared to 5.3 for whites. Since the family unit was often encourages by owners, slave’s families often got or would get, if they married and started a family, a house of their own on the plantation. The slave’s material condition was greater than the northern industrial worker of the time. Scientist, Sir Charles Lyell, said of the slave quarters “Neat as the greater part of the cottages in Scotland”.

“The slaves were well provided for”
Northern Frederick Law Olmsted



Medical treatment

"Old massa have doctor for us when us sick. We's too val'ble
-Abmstead Barrett Texas Slave narratives

"De owners always tuk care of us, and when us got sick dey would git a doctor”
-Henry Cheatam Alabama Slave Narratives

“Studies of probate record suggest that most slaves received as much medical care as their owners”
-T.J Stiles, author of “Jesse James last Rebel of the Civil War”


Laws were in place to ensure that the owner's must care for and meet the needs of the slaves. Plantation owners spent more money on slaves than freemen did on their children decades after the civil war. Often on larger plantations they would have their own mini-hospital, with an on-site doctor. Smaller plantations would often have an on-site nurse. In the decades following the war, when the slaves were freed, African American’s life expectancy dropped by 10% and sickness rose by 20%. They received better medical care while in slavery under the care of an invested master.

“White folks jus had to be good to sick slaves, cause slaves was property. For old master to lose a slave was losin money”
-Rachael Adams Georgia Slave Narratives


Condition of the slave in the South / Work all day, no play?

“To say that they are under worked and overfed and are far happier than the labors of great Britan would hardly convey a sufficiently clear notion of their actual condition. They put me much more in mind of a community of grown children, spoiled by to much kindness, than a body of dependents. Much less a community of slaves”
-Louis F Tasistro of Great Britain

“The slaves do not go around looking unhappy, and are with difficulty, I fancy, persuaded to feel so. Whips and chains oaths and brutality are as common, for all that one sees, in the free as the slave states. We have come thus far, and might have gone ten times as far, I dare say, without seeing the first sign of negro misery or white tyranny”
- Bostonian Charles Elliot Norton, while in South Carolina

“One might almost imagine one's self to be in Hayti [Haiti] and think that colored people had got possession of the town and held sway, while the whites were living among them as sufferance”
-Englishmen James Silk Buckingham, visited Virginia in 1840's


Many in the south thought that slavery was beneficial to the negro, especially the removal from Africa. By leaving Africa, their quality of life increased in every way [More on this later]. Southern slaves worked 10% less than northern farmers on average, because crop production took less time than animal and dairy farming common in the north. In the 1840's Scottish observer William Thompson said slaves don't work “One fourth so much as a scotch.” Some plantations had 5 hour work days and others were always done by 2-3 in the afternoon. Because of sick slaves old and young, usually around 1/3 of slaves on a given plantation were not working or doing very light work. Multiple studies found slaves worked on average only 281 days a year, due to the Sabbath off, holidays, weather and sickness. The work that was done was carried. Even on the large cotton plantations work was divided between 38% time on cotton, 31% livestock and growing corn and 31% repairs, domestic duties etc.

Slaves’ income varied, and with good effort would be rewarded with higher level jobs, such as running the plantation. 7% of slaves were in some managerial job. Slaves had down time as well as their own money to spend. Often they had their own business on the side to make extra cash to spend. Slave “renting” was common, this is where a skilled slave [carpentry, blacksmith etc] would advertise their services, negotiate their own contracts, and own their own place of business. Slaves in America learned more skills than anywhere in Africa. Slaves started dominating certain trades in cities. This caused some southern whites to get upset at the slave owners because the slaves were taking all the carpentry, blacksmith, and cabin making jobs.
Slaves often owned property of their own on the plantation, 60% of those interviewed by the federal Writers project said they owned their own land. In typical slave owning Germantown, LA, slaves maintained their own accounts at stores and freely made purchases at the stores. During free time Slaves worked at local stores, earning the same wages as whites according to store records. Slaves sold goods to the store that they made or grew in their downtime and from their own property. At the store, slaves purchased “luxury” and “snack” items, as basic needs were cared for by their owner. The slaves also bought gun powder, knives, and writing utensils. In the book, Time on the Cross, they estimated slaves received as much as 90% of the wages they earned (with modern tax rates, few earn that much today).

“Slaves received on average better and more certain compensation [for work] than any laboring people”
-R.L Dabney, A Defense of Virginia and the South


Many would purchase their own freedom, other slaves, and land. Some would become prosperous slave owners themselves, or tradesmen and business owners. Often slaves and free blacks worked a plantation owned by a white that was residing in other part of country; the owner would only be their seasonally.

“De young folks don't know nothing about good times and good living, dey don't understand how come I wish I wuz still in slavery."
-Adam Smith, Mississippi Slave Narratives

"Wen I sit and think of all the good things we had to eat an all the fun we had, 'course we had to work, but you knows, when a crowd all works togather and sings and laughs, first thing you know--the works all done."
-Ellen King, Mississippi Slave Narratives

“That was a happy time, with happy days. I’ll be satisfied to see my Savior that my old marster worshiped and my husband preach about. I wants to be in heaven with all my white folks, just to wait on them and love them, and serve them, sorta like I did in slavery time. That will be enough heaven for Adeline.”
-Slave Adeline Johnson Slave Narratives

"Lawsey man, dem were de days!We usta have some good times. We could have all the fun we wanted on Sa'dday nights, and we sho had it, cuttin monkey shines, and dancing all night long. Sometimes our mistis would come down early to watch us."
-Sidney Bonner, Alabama Slave Narratives

“Miss, us niggers on de Bennett place [Plantation] wuz free as soon as we wuz bawn. I always been free”
-Hannah Irwin, Alabama Slave Narratives

“Cotton pickin was big fun too, and when dey got through pickin de cotton dey et and drank and danced till dey could dance no more”
-Rachael Adams Georgia Slave Narratives

“Slavery times wuz sho good times. We wuz fed an' clothed an' had nothin to worry about”
-Sarah and Tom Douglas, Alabama Slave Narratives

“In slavery days the negroes had quilt tings, dances, picnics and everybody had a good time”
Arrie Binns Georgia slave narratives

“Dem days fore de war was good old days, speically for de colored folks..oh missy dem was good old days us would be lucky to have em back. You could hear niggers singin in de fields cause dey diden't have no worries lak dey got now...dat cornshukin wuz easy wid everyone sigin and havin a good time together...old times when folkes loved one another den dey does now.”
Jasper Battle Georgia Slave Narratives

“How they sang; how they laughed and grinned...heard amongst the black folks endless singing, shouting and laughter; and saw on holidays black gentlemen and ladies arrayed in such splendor and comfort as freeborn workmen in our english towns seldom exhibit”
-English novelist, William M. Thackeray

"I think slavery was a good thing. I never suffered for nothin'."
-Perry Sheppard, Slave Narratives

“My white people dey good tuh me....why, ah was jes lak dey's chullun [Children] ah played wid em, et wid em an' eb' n slep wid 'em.....Dem was good ol times, ah tel yuh, honey....”
-Mrs. Candis Goodwin, Virginia Slave Narratives

“I think slavery was a mighty good thing for Mother, Father, me and the other members of the family, and I cannot say anything but good for my old marster and missus, but I can only speak for those whose conditions I have known during slavery and since. For myself and them, I will say again, slavery was a mighty good thing.”
-Slave Mary Anderson, North Carolina Slave Narratives



Master/Slave Relationship

“Domestic slaves were almost uniformly dealt with indulgently and ever affectionately by their masters... the greater part of slave owners were humane in their treatment of their slaves- kind indulgent, not over exacting and sincerely interested in the physical well being of their dependents”
-President Woodrow Wilson

“The kindliest relation that ever existed between the two races in this country, or that ever will, was the ante-bellum relation of master and slave—a relation of confidence and responsibility on the part of the master and of dependence and fidelity on the part of the slave.”
-The Confederate Veteran—the official publication of the United Confederate Veterans 1906

“It may be said than no other economic system before or since that time has engendered a bond of personal affection between capital and labour so strong as that established by the institution of slavery”
-Dr Henry A. White, History professor at Washington and Lee University in 1900


The normal depiction of slavery is a racist white owner standing there with a whip, who cares nothing of his slaves. He beats them regularly and forces them to work all day. He is willing to kill what he paid for, if they are out of line. He views the slave as a less evolved animal. The truth is much different. While there was the “evil” master who did horrible things, that was the exception, not the rule. As was said of the cruel slave master, he was cruel to all, even his own kids. Slaves and their master typically had a good relationship that was beneficial to both parties.

Often the relationship was more like a family than one owning the other. Most all slaves were born in America. They grew up with, played with, worked with, and often ate with their future masters (the children of the current master). It was normal for future masters to use family names, such as aunt or uncle for the slaves. Slave narratives speak of future masters as children (these future white masters) being shown to use guns, fish, hunt, etc. by their slaves and forming family like relationships with them. Most white children on plantations were “raised as much by black woman as a white woman.” Slave women often worked in the house, cooking, cleaning, and also raising and schooling the master’s children.

“No prophet in early times could have told that kindness would grow as a flower from soil so faul, that slaves would come to be cherished not only as property of high value but as loving if lowly friends”
-Ulrich B Phillips, Life and Labor in the Old South


Most slave owners had very few slaves and worked along with them, lived with them, and were buried with them. Large plantation owners were like large business and industry owners in north, they often did not work with their employees. They did work to build the place up, often doing so away from the plantation. In the slave narratives, 60-80% could not say anything negative about their masters. How many of us could say the same about their boss today? Studying the slave narratives in South Carolina, Belina Hurmence said she found “little to no anger towards masters.” After the Civil war there are multiple accounts of slaves bringing food and money to former masters who had lost it all in the war. Mary Chestnut, a slave owner who was anti-slavery, said “they are so well situated and so cuddled by us that it is sometimes easy to forget that slavery is an evil.” She would also write that often it was the masters who took orders from the slaves.

“With a family of more than 200 moths looking up to me for food, I feel lawful charge on my hands it is easy to rid myself of burden if I could shut my heart to the cry of humanity and the voice of duty. But in these poor slaves I have found my best and most faithful friends and I feel that it would be more difficult to abandon them to cruel fate to which our laws would consign them, than to suffer with them”
-John Randolph, slave owner in 1814


“I was raised by one of the greatest men in the world. There was never one born of a woman greater than Gen. Robert E. Lee, according to my judgment. All of his servants were set free ten years before the war, but all remained on the plantation until after the surrender.”
-William Mack Lee, Robert E. Lee’s servant


“I loved him, and I can say that every colored man he ever owned loved him”
-Former slave of CSA president Jefferson Davis of Mississippi

"De war broke out an' up-sot everything. I never can fer-get the de day dat Mars had to go. When he tole us good by every slave on the place collected 'round him an' cried, afraid he would never git back. We loved him an' de slaves stuck by him while he wuz away, de bes' hit could be wid de cavalrymen a taking an' a destroyin....When de war ended ole Mars....came home an' hit wuz a big day of rejoicin. We wuz so glad he come back safe to us."
-Dave Walker, Mississippi Slave Narratives

"My young marster used to work in de field wid us, til he went to de war, an' he'd boss de niggers. dey called him bud, but we all called him Babe. I sho did love dat boy. I loved him."
-Susan Snow, Mississippi Slave Narratives

"Master Joel musta been bawn on a sun shinny day 'cause he sho was bright an' good natured. Ever nigger on the plantation loved him lak he was sent from heaven."
-Lightin' Mathews, Alabama Slave Narratives

"My master was the best in the country”
-John Smith, Alabama Slave Narratives

“The rest of the family was all fine folks and good to me, but I loved Miss Ella better ’n anyone or anything else in the world. She was the best friend I ever had. If I ever wanted for anything, I just asked her and she give it to me or got it for me somehow.”
-Slave L. Betty Cofer Slave Narratives

“When marster died, that was the time of my first real sorrow. Three years later, missus passed away, that was the time of my second sorrow. Then, I reminded myself of a little tree out there in the woods in November. With every sharp and cold wind of trouble that blowed, more leaves of that tree turned loose and went to the ground, just like they was trying to follow her. It seemed like, when she was gone, I was just like that tree with all the leaves gone, naked and friendless. It took me a long time to get over all that; same way with the little tree, it had to pass through winter and wait on spring to see life again."
-Ezra Adams, South Carolina Slave Narratives

“My children, black and white”
-Slave owner Jane Gill of Missouri, speaking of her slaves

“I loved him, and I can say that every colored man he ever owned loved him”
Former slave of CSA president Jefferson Davis Mississippi

“I sho would rather have slavery days back if I could have my same good master...I ant never got over being abel to see marse Alec no more..us sho did have de best marster in de world. If ever a man went to heaven, mars Alec did. I sho does wish our good old marster was livin now”
Georgia Backer Georgia Slave Narratives



Treatment of Slaves [South] and Free Blacks [North/ Europe]

“They fare better than the poor of any of our citizens are more warmly clad, work less, and are a thousand-fold more cheerful and contented”
Daniel Hundley viewed slavery in Alabama

“Sir, there does not exists on the face of the earth, a population so poor, so uterley destitute of comforts ,convinces , and decencies of life as the unfortunate blacks in Philadelphia,New York and Boston. Liberty has been to them the greatest of calamities the heaviest of curses... go home and emancipate your free negroes. When you do that, we will listen to you with more patience”
Sen Robert Y Hayne of South Carolina in debate with Daniel Webster

“The free colored people were looked upon as an inferior caste to whom liberty was a curse, and their lot worse than that of slaves”
Abolitionist William Lloyd Garrison Biography


To many, the treatment of blacks in the south under slavery was far better not only than that of free blacks in the north, but that of the white industrial workers in Europe and America as well. American president John Adams said “That in some countries the laboring poor were called freedmen, in others they were called slaves, but that the difference as to the state was imaginary only” A Nobel Prize winning book written by Robert Fogel, Time on the Cross, showed that the slaves in the south were treated better than slaves anywhere in world, and treated better than free blacks in the north and factory workers in the north. They worked less, were fed more, received better medical care, and had more living area. Free blacks in the north had higher death rates than southern slaves. In 1860, the population growth was 23% for southern slaves and 1.7% for free northern blacks.

After the war, very few slaves left for the north, as they felt their treatment was better in the south than it would be in the north. During the war the slaves could have easily raised up and freed themselves as the north called them to do, but as slave owning Kate Stone said “we would be helpless should the negros rise since there are few men left at home. It is only because negros do not want to kill us that we are still alive.” During the war, the south was first to use blacks in the military and gave them equal pay, while the north did not. The south was first to appoint black officers in the war. A slave from Missouri said “colored people and whites associate more in the south than in the north. They go to parties together, dance together, colored people enjoy themselves more in the south.”

“The prejudice of color is not nearly as strong in the south as the north [in the south] it is not at all uncommon to see black slaves of both sexes shake hands with white people when they met. And interchange friendly personal inquiries, but at the north I do not remember to have witnessed this once neither Boston, NY, Philadelphia would white persons generally like to be seen shaking hands with black in the streets”
-English abolitionist James S Buckingham in 1842

“The prejudice of the race appears to be stronger in the states which have abolished slavery, than in those were it still exists”
-Frenchmen Alexis De Tocqueville, Democracy in America

“[Northern abolition] seeks not to elevate or to support the slave, but to destroy his present condition without providing a better.”
-Mississippi Declaration of Causes for Succession

“It has struck me that the slaves there are much better off in many respects than the poor in England who are doomed to labors and starve”
-1824, Mary Helan Herring Middelton

“They fare better than the poor of any of our citizens are more warmly clad, work less, and are a thousand-fold more cheerful and contented”
-Daniel Hundley, viewed slavery in Alabama

“Our plan is more profitable [non slave factory workers] we take care of no children or sick people, except as paupers, while owners of slaves have to provide for them from birth till death”
-John Haley, 17th Maine

“Negro woman are carrying black and white babies together in arms, black and white children are playing together out of doors, to see the train go by”
-Northerner Fredrick Olmsted, A Journey in the Seaboard Slave States

“Treating them [blacks] on every occasion with utmost marked contempt”
-Rep. Charles Pinckney of South Carolina, speaking of northerners

“The difference between us is, that our slaves are hired for life and well compensated; there is no starvation, no begging, no want of employment among our people, and not too much employment either. Yours are hired by the day, not cared for, and scantily compensated, which may be proved in the most painful manner, at any hour in any street of your large towns. Why, you meet more beggars in one day, in any single street of the city of New York, than you would meet in a lifetime in the whole South.”
 -“Cotton Is King” speech, James Henry Hammond
 

Slave Breeding?

In the book, Economics of Negro Slavery, it shows there is no one concrete example of slave breeding (breeding slaves for sale or to multiple slaves), just rumors. However, I have read at least one account in the slave narratives of slave breeding. Genetics and others calculators show that if it did happen, it was extremely rare. It also shows that the income that would be gained would be offset by uncontent slaves, runaways, caring for pregnancy, taking a woman out of work while pregnant, and a host of other expenses. Many lines of evidence show slave owners knew what was financially best; to maintain the negro family was most profitable for business, slave happiness, and work ethic. This is likely exactly the reason it was uncommon, if it happened at all. However some, such as one of the many blacks that owned slaves, William Ellison, sold infant slaves who were assumed to be the result of slave breeding, from his large plantation in South Carolina. This was looked down upon by his neighboring whites. Ellison also fed his slaves the least and punished harsher than any slave owner in the county. However, Africa did have multiple mass slave breading programs.

Slave Education

“Universal temper of masters was to promote and not to hinder it [education]... masters desired intelligent and morality of their servants...an intelligent christian servant was universally recognized as being a better servant”
-R.L. Dabney, 1867


Slaves were normally educated and taught the basics. Some slaves were taught to the point where they could run the plantation, such as on CSA president Jeff Davis’ plantation. Slaves that could read and write were more valuable and could do more jobs. The slaves usually received their education from the master’s children and wife, as well as from church. Overall, slaves in the south were better educated than anywhere in Africa at the time.

“You know, the nigger was wild till the white man made what he has out of the nigger. He done ed'cate them real smart”
Frank bell Texas Slave Narratives


Life Span

According to the book, Time on the Cross: The Economics of American Negro Slavery (by scholars Robert William Fogel and Stanley L. Engerman), life expectancy in 1850 was 40 for whites and 36 for slaves (there is a 5 year gap today]. Slaves had a longer average life span than those who lived in Italy, Austria, Holland and France. Slaves had a longer life span than northern industrial workers as well. Residents of NY, Boston, and Philadelphia had life spans of 24 years. Slaves committed suicide at 1/3 the rate of whites in same time period. When the age of 20 was reached, the life expectancy was equal to whites, more slaves died young.

Church

“All the slaves big enogh and not sick, had to go to church on de sabbath”
Anne bell South Carolina Slave Narratives

“For all the south are aware of the differences between religious and irreligious Negroes. The most devout of our slaves are the most faithful and honest in the discharge of their duties to their masters”
-Matthew Estes, southern historian in 1846


Slaves were given the Sabbath day of rest every week (biblical day of rest). While not universal, Slaves and masters often attended the same churches. Slaves were often given the freedom of what denomination to choose from. Masters realized they did not own the souls of their slaves, they belonged to God.  Negro non pastors were allowed to preach to both white and black audiences. In 1786, the Simpson city Mississippi Baptist Church was created by whites and blacks, it had a mixed congregation. The first pastor in the First Baptist Church in LA was a black free man.

“During my residence with master ford I had seen only the bright side of slavery, His was no heavy hand crushing us to the earth. He pointed upwards, and with benign and cheering words addressed us as fellow mortals, accountable, like himself, to the maker of us all. I think of him with affection, and had my family been with me, could have borne his gentile servitude without murmuring , all my days...there never was a more kind,noble,candid, christian man than William ford”
-Solomon Northup


Native born American blacks

In 1860, only 1% of blacks were immigrants from Africa, the rest being native born. A higher % of whites were immigrants at the time. America became a slave power not because of large imports of slaves, but because of life expectancy and keeping the black family intact.


Runaway slaves?

“Blacks could have escaped to nearby union lines but few chose to do so, and instead remained at home and became the most essential element in the southern infrastructure to resisting northern invasion”
-Professor Edward C. Smith


Sometimes the picture portrayed is that slaves all wanted to run away from their masters and would do so any chance they got. While there is no question that many slaves ran away from bad conditions and bad masters, this occurrence was infrequent. During the decades leading up to the war, 1850's and 60's, only 1 out of every 4,919 slaves ran away. In antebellum America masters took there slaves by the thousands north and west without an issue of runaways. During the war a perfect opportunity for those who wanted to run presented itself, and those who wanted to could have done so. By the middle to end of the war, nearly all male whites were in service in the CSA army. The north invading the south and winning provided a great opportunity for slaves to run away, yet very few slaves chose to do so. According to Lincoln and secretary seawards numbers, 95% of slaves stayed home during the war.

After the war the veterans of the confederacy wanted to build a statue recognizing the effort from the woman at home, the woman said instead to build a statue for the loyal slaves who made it all possible. The politically incorrect runaway slave you will not typically read about are those slaves that were captured by union soldiers, forced into service of manual labor (slavery) and ultimately ran away back to their masters. Many in the south felt the slaves had it very good, such as John Randolf who said “the slaves will advertise for runaway masters.”

The following excerpt is taken from a slave narrative:
Simon Phillips was one of 300 Negroes belonging to Bryant Watkins, a plantation owner of Greensboro, Alabama.  He was a house man, which meant that he mixed the drinks, opened the carriage doors, brought refreshments on the porch to guests, saw that the carriage was always in the best of condition, and tended the front lawn.  When asked about slave days, he gets a far-away expression in his eyes; an expression of tranquil joy."People," he says, "has the wrong idea of slave days. We was treated good. My massa never laid a hand on me durin' the whole time I was wid him. He scolded me once for not bringin' him a drink when I was supposed to, but he never whup me." ….."Not since those days," he states, "have I had such good food."......Sometime they [ negros slaves] loaned the massa money when he was hard pushed.  "But what I want to say is, we didn't have no idea of runnin' and escapin'. We was happy."


Break-up of the African family? Slave trade within the South

“Dey didn't know bout marryin in Africy [africa]”
Harriett Barrett Texas


The importation of new slaves through the Atlantic slave trade, or any trade outside the CSA, was outlawed. But slavery from state to state and county to county was legal. There is no question that slave owners and traders did break up the family unit; and to me this may be the worst part of slavery. However, it was very uncommon and looked down upon by southern whites. Only 13% of slave trade sales resulted in the breakup of a family; usually the families were bought as a whole unit. The best production, as owners understood, was to keep the family unit together and encourage it. To buy a slave and break up his family would not be a good starting point for a productive slave.

Keeping a family together would increase the slave’s happiness, increase work ethic, and reduced runaways or “lazy” slaves. Many slave dealers, like confederate general Nathan Bedford Forrest, went long distances and paid extra to reunite slave families. Scottish observer, William Thomson, said that slave families were more intact than the people of Scotland. The black family was more together in slavery than in modern times. The further you move away from slavery, the greater the breakup of the African American family. The African family was close to not even existing in Africa; it was usually a man with multiple wives who were pretty much “slaves.” Slavery created a strong family presence among African Americans.

“Slave dealers were universally detested, and even ostracized”
-President Woodrow Wilson



Laws designed to protect slaves, slave rights, slave punishment, and corporal punishment [whipping]

“It is not the policy or the interest of the south to destroy the negro on the contrary, to preserve and protect him”
-Confederate General, Nathan Bedford Forrest

“Slaves had more input on society than many believe”
-Myths of American Slavery, by Walter D Kennedy


Laws recognized slaves as both property and persons with rights[5,6]. Rape laws in Virginia gave equal protection to slaves as any white woman would receive. [Code 1819 p 585 ch 158/ Burnetts case, 2 Va cases, 235] Virginia laws gave equal protection to the slave from beatings, rape, and murder or “Threat to life and limb” equal to whites. [Virginia Code of 1849 Ch 191 S 9 edit 1860 p 784/ code of 1849 ch 208 s 30/ Chapple's case I Virginia cases, 184 Carvers Case 5th Randolphs Rep, 660] Slaves had equal rights to defend themselves “life and limb,” and could (and did) by law kill a master in defense of life. In Virginia in 1861 a slave turned on his master and killed him and was arrested by his fellow slaves. The slave admitted to murder in the first degree “I intended to kill him” yet was given a lesser charge because the master had harassed the slave with “barbarous and unusual punishments.” No slave was to be convicted of capital punishment unless all 5 judges agreed . In April 1864 the Virginia supreme court involving Elvira charged with the poisoning of her masters family. Only one of the judges dissented and she was acquitted.

“The Laws of Virginia protected not only the life, but the limb of the slave against white persons, and even his own master”
-R.L Dabney A defense of Virginia and the South 1867


The Virginia a court case 1851 [7th Grattan, 673] a master was convicted of murder in the first degree for whipping his slave that resulted in death, even though it was unintended to result in death, he still received first degree instead of manslaughter. Stealing or kidnapping any individual with the purpose of selling him into slavery was a felony with up to 10 years in prison. [code of VA. 1849 chap 191 S 17] Any slave could petition and bring his case to court if he claimed he was unlawfully enslaved and repaid damages.[ 1849 chap 106] In a series of three trials involving the Mississippi supreme court [Josephine v Mississippi ] a slave Josephine was found guilty by overwhelming evidence of her murdering her masters wife and newborn child by poison. The master Mr. Jones had sexual relations with Josephine and in revenge she killed Mrs Jones and the new baby.

“The facts of the trial court and the testimony of the witnesses provided substantial evidence of Josephine's guilt. Nevertheless, the legal community and system within Mississippi provided three trials in which the fundamental rights of the slave were acknowledged and adjudicated, in spite of the mounting evidence supporting the murder charges”
-Marshall L Derosa Redeeming American Democracy


She was released on a technicality[8]. In the confederacy, slaves in Louisiana were entitled to legal council at state expense.[ Jones and Daugharty v Aaron Goza] An 1852 Alabama slave code required the owner “must provide him with sufficiency of healthy food”other laws made the master provide for all the medical needs of a slave “as own child.” Slave’s children’s care was the master’s responsibility as well. The master was responsible to take care of the slave’s well being after their work life was completed. If the slave worked hard during their life, the master would repay them with care. If the master did not take care of sick and old slaves, the others would not work hard; that is why so few older slaves ever ran away. The master, by law, had to care for sick and old slaves.

“Our plan is more profitable [non slave factory workers] we take care of no children or sick people, except as paupers, while owners of slaves have to provide for them from birth till death”
-John Haley, 17th Maine


When told by his master that he was now free Toby said to his master “You brought me from Africa and North Carolina and I goinr' stay wid you as long as ever I get sumpin to eat, you goots look after me”
Corporal punishment was the typical mode of correction in American society of the day. It was used by slave parents on their children and white parents on their own children. In Virginia (and other states in south) slave parents had a reputation for being more severe in punishment of their children than the slave masters were. Masters at times had to come in and stop a slave parent from the excessive punishment of their children. Whites viewed slave mothers as lesser parents because of their harsh punishment of children. At the same time, England and the North used whips on kids and wives as legal corporal punishment. Whippings were used in military discipline as well. Black soldiers during the war whipped white civilians, Blacks whipped their wives, and teachers used a rod/whip in schools; it was common practice within the laws in America. Whippings produced nearly crime free societies. Yes, it was abused and overused, but these cases were rare and illegal. Charles Lyell noted how Negro crime in the 1830's was almost nonexistent; he said the Irish in a few years had done far worse than Negroes had through a hundred years

“Crime was practically unknown and MR Ross slaves never heard of a jail until they were freed”
-Della Briscoe Georgia slave narratives


Corporal punishment could be used on slaves, but not as to harm to “life or limb.” Some masters would not use the whip at all and fire any overseer who used one. The majority of surviving plantation manuals either did not allow whipping, or only did under dire circumstances. Others had laws such as: no whippings until a 24 hour period passed from the time of the crime. Some said, “Not to cut the skin when punishing, nor punish with passion.” Usually a trial was held on the plantation with other slaves as witnesses before any whipping could take place. Many slaves had never received a whipping in their entire life; whippings were uncommon. Normally rewards were given to promote good work, rather than punishments which tied to force good behavior. Such rewards could come in the form of cash bonuses, whiskey, tobacco, land, and food. Overuse of the whip caused negative effects and production. Whip marks show an uncontrollable slave and reduce their value; it decreases the moral of that slave and thus others production drops.

“The slaves do not go around looking unhappy, and are with difficulty, I fancy, persuaded to feel so. Whips and chains oaths and brutality are as common, for all that one sees, in the free as the slave states. We have come thus far, and might have gone ten times as far, I dare say, without seeing the first sign of negro misery or white tyranny”
- Bostonian Charles Elliot Norton, while in South Carolina


In the slave narratives, many slaves say they deserved the whippings they got for stealing and other wrong doings. Some say they were thankful for the lesson; many others were not bitter because the punishment either taught them to not steal, be “wild,” or because they thought they deserved the ones they got. Often times slaves were in control of the plantation and even the punishments. The owners generally were busy in advertising the product, the purchase of equipment, buying new land, constructing new buildings, negotiations, etc. A cording to the 1860 census data, on plantations with over 100 slaves, an average of only 2 white males lived on those plantations. Slaves were generally self governing. On large plantations, 70% of overseers who were in charge of punishments were black, meaning that more blacks than whites used the whip for punishments on larger plantations. One observer from Scotland said, “The driver is always a black man.” These overseers were often “consulted” by owners for suggestions to improve plantation life and production. However the most common ill treatment of slaves involved heavy punishment; in most cases to which there were laws in place to protect against it.

‘The Overseer must never on any occasion–unless in self-defense–kick a negro, or strike with his hand, or a stick, or the butt-end of his whip.’ Throughout the South, publicists denounced as un-Christian masters who mistreated those placed under their authority, and stressed the need for ‘moderate’ predictable punishment for offenses that were clearly spelled out. Such guidelines were dictated not simply by the much-vaunted ‘love’ that masters felt for their slaves, but also by intensely practical considerations: observant slave owners learned by experience that continual, random, or extreme punishment was likely to be counterproductive, producing confusion and seething resentment rather than cheerful and orderly deportment.
-Peter Kolchin, American Slavery, 1619-1877


After the slaves were released, many slaves preferred slavery / Race relations worsen after slaves were freed

“Before two years had passed after the surrender, there was two out of every three slaves who wished they was back with their marsters. The marsters’ kindness to the nigger after the war is the cause of the nigger having things today. There was a lot of love between marster and slave, and there is few of us that don’t love the white folks today.”
-Slave Patsy Mitchner Slave Narratives

“Things sure better long time ago then they be now. I know it. Colored people never had no debt to pay in slavery time. Never hear tell about no colored people been put in jail before freedom. Had more to eat and more to wear then, and had good clothes all the time ’cause white folks furnish everything, everything. Had plenty peas, rice, hog meat, rabbit, fish, and such as that.”
-Sylvia Cannon, South Carolina Slave Narratives

“The institution of slavery is a stain on this nation’s soul that will never be cleansed. It is just as wrong as wrong can be, a huge sin, and it is on our soul. There’s a second sin that’s almost as great and that’s emancipation.”
Historian Shelby Foote


The condition of the slave materially declined after the civil war. Now instead of being cared for by a master with basic needs met, they had to provide for themselves with no money/land of their own. Unlike free blacks, slaves had never been without a place to live, and free medical care. They had never starved, been without work, and had always been taken care of when they were sick or old. Speaking of money Anne Bell of south Carolina said “What I want wid it anyhow”, slaves were taken care of. As slave Smith Stevens said, often they simply went to go “work” for their former masters, now being paid, yet now having to cover basic medical care, food, clothing, and ended up in same situation or often worse. A former South Carolina slave said, “If we had not been set free in 1865 you would have discovered many wealthy black slaves laden with money we had made from our extra crop production.” Sickness rose, life expectancy dropped, blacks skilled in labor deteriorated, and the African American diet deteriorated.

“Didn't have so much sickness in them days, and naturally they diden't die so fast. Folks lived a long time than”
Aunt Sally Georgia slave narratives


The gap in earnings between whites and blacks rose from the time after the after Civil War until WW2. Many slaves simply refused their freedom. Sometimes when slaves heard that the war was over, they would start working extra hard and be on their best behavior to better their chances of remaining on the plantation.

After freedom, Negro crime skyrocketed. There were now numerous blacks without care, without their needs met (masters gone), with little to no money or land, and no way to provide for themselves. This led to the high crime rate and want of segregation on both sides. The high crime because of the freed negroes also led to increase racism. Charles Lyell noted how Negro crime in the 1830's was almost nonexistent; he said the Irish in a few years had done far worse than Negroes had through a hundred years. White crime versus blacks also rose due to the bitter defeats in war and politics they suffered. This led to many “Horrors” of former good willed masters against former slaves. Overall, race relations grew far worse in the decades after the civil war.

“My mother was always right in the house with the white people and I was fed just like I was one of their children. They even done put me to bed with them. You see, this discrimination on color wasn’t as bad then as it is now. They handled you as a slave but they didn’t discriminate against you on account of color like they do now.”
-Elija Henery Hopkins, Arkansas Slave Narratives

“We had better then than now cause white men lynch an burn now and do other things they couldent do then”
Henry brown South Carolina Slave narratives

“Race relations deteriorated at the end of the nineteenth century”
-Douglas W. Bristol Knights of the Razor: Black Barbers in Slavery and Freedom


The slave narratives tell of how bad things had gotten with the following generations of blacks and whites. Former slaves describe the newer generation of blacks as wild, disrespectful, lazy, lying, stealing, criminals, that have no respect and are not being raised right (they almost all say because they were not whipped, for which many slaves said they were thankful for). This caused race relations, they say, to worsen, along with the KKK, which started as a political weapon used against blacks to vote by disgruntled white southerners after losing political power in the war.

“It has suddenly and greatly diminished there share of the material goods [slaves after war] they before enjoyed the supplies of clothing and shoes now acquired by them do not reach a third of what they revived before the war”
-R.L Dabney, 1867

“De missus...rock me ter sleep an put me ter bed in her own bed. I wuz happy den...untill dem yankees come we wuznt happy at de surrender an we cussed old Abraham Lincoln all ober de place”
John Beckwith North Carolina Slave Narratives

“I' seems to think us have more freedom when us slaves”
Abmstead Barrett Texas

“I was happy all de time in slavery days, but dere ain’t much to git happy over now…”
-Mary Rice, Alabama Slave Narratives

"I wish times were like they use to be when we belonged to the white folks; we had better times then."
-Ben Wall, Mississippi Slave Narratives

“Master called all the slaves up and said 'you is just as free as I am. You can stay or go as you please'. We all stayed.In slavery times the old folks was cared for and now there ain't no one to see to them."
-Smith Simmons, Alabama Slave Narratives

"Our food them was a-way better that the stuff we gets today." [post slavery]
-Emma Jones, Georgia Slave Narratives

“Freedom is all right, but de niggers was better off befo' surrender”
-Tempe Herndon Durham, North Carolina Slave Narratives

I 'druther be alivin' back dere dan today 'caze us at least had plenty somp'n t'eat an' nothin' to worry about”
-Henry Cheatam, Alabama Slave Narratives

“All de slaves cried when de Yankees come, an dat most uv 'em stayed on a long time atter de war. My manmy plowed an done such work all de time uv slavery out she done it case she wanted to do it an not 'cause dey make her...All de slaves hate de Yankees an when de southern soldiers came late in de night all de niggers got out of de bed an holdin torches high dey march behin de soldiers, all of dem singing We'll hang Abe Lincoln on de Sour Apple Tree. yes mam, dey wuz sorry dat dey wuz freeman' dey ain't got no reason tu be glad, case dey wuz happier den dan now”
Alice Baugh North Carolina

“More humble , affectionate, anxious to be allowed to remain as they are than the outside world, the readers of mrs Stowe would ever conceive. Not one expressed the slightest pleasure at the sudden freedom.” [One old SC slave wept bitterly and rolled on the ground after hearing of slavery being abolished.]
-Mary Chestnut, speaking of her slaves after the war

“ I believe our slaves are the happiest three millions of human beings on whom the sun shines, into their Eden is coming Satan in the guise of an abolitionist”
-James Hammond, plantation owner before the war

“Old master dead an'gone and old mistis too, but I member'em jus'lak dey was,when dey looked after us whenst we belonged to em or dey belonged to us I dunno which it was....de times was better fo'de war...i goes to church and sings an' prays, an' when de good lord teks me, i'se ready to go, en I specs to see jesus an' old mistis an' old master when I gets to de he'benly mand”
-Jane, Alabama Slave Narratives


The song Dixie Land was written about a runaway former slave who is longing for the plantation of his birth.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D3IJ05QntXQ


Slavery in the South how prevalent was slavery?

Investment in a slave was expensive. According to the federal census there were only 385,000 slave owners in the entire south (thousands of blacks included). Even if all slaveholders had been white, that would amount to only 1.4 percent of whites in the country or 4.8 percent of southern whites owning one or more slaves.
The slave trade and the Confederacy

The importation of Negroes of the African race from any foreign country, other than the slaveholding States or Territories of the United States of America, is hereby forbidden; and Congress is required to pass such laws as shall effectually prevent the same
-Article I Section 9(1) Confederate Constitution

No slave ship ever flew the confederate flag. The slave trade was outlawed by the Confederate constitution. The slave trade that often mistreated and split up black families was looked down upon as a if a crime and moral wrong by the majority of southerners [ and northerners]. At the time, southerners who supported slavery felt that taking a man from freedom, then putting him in bondage, was a sin “man stealing.” Owning a person already in slavery (African slave and slave trade) and taking him in, often better provided for, was not seen as an evil. Southerners did not see bringing new people in slavery as a good thing, and their treatment while transported was cruel, so they outlawed the trade. Virginia, long before civil war, was the first state to abolish the slave trade. In certain circumstances, slaves were happy to be bought, sometimes brought to tears with the hope of getting out of the poor living conditions of the slave trade. Some southerners bought slaves out of pity for their condition. The north, even after it abolish slavery in their home states, were almost entirely responsible for the slave trade and bringing new slaves to the south before it was outlawed. The south had almost no ships that could even travel the distance.



Uncle Tom's Cabin versus Reality

“Does yo' know de cause of de war? Well hyar's de cause, dis Uncle Tom's Cabin wuz de cause of it all an' its' de biggest lie what ever been gived ter de public.”
Alice Baugh North Carolina

“The treatment which they revive, and the character of their masters, have been much misrepresented in the non-slave holding states”
-Northerner Timothy Flint, 1833

“North might one day learn the truth about so called southern slavery”
-Mississippi plantation owner, 1842


Because the northern and European perception of slavery was based on books like Uncle Tom’s Cabin (by Harriet Beecher Stowe, who had never seen a plantation or been to the south), they were surprised to find out the truth during the war. As one northern abolitionist said after visiting the south, “where are your real slaves, such as we read of ?” When new Englander Fredrick Law Olmstead visited Virginia, he was “stunned” to see slaves grinning, singing, whistling, leaning on their hoes scarily working. All the slaves he said, were neatly dressed and overweight. When Englishmen Robert Russells came to the United States in 1854 and visited Richmond, Virginia, he observed large numbers of “carefree slaves” lofting around town, “As all were well dressed and light-hearted as one could possibly imagine.” Irish journalist William Howard Russell, while visiting Montgomery, Alabama in the mid 1800's said, “I precived a crown of very well dressed negroes men and woman. Their general appearance indicated much comfort and even luxury. I doubted if they all were slaves... whom do you belong to? He replied, “I'blong to massa smith sar.” So with the north's Uncle Tom’s Cabin view of slavery, they were assured that when the north went to war the slaves would rise up, rejoice, and fight for the union. However, this is not what happened, often when union troops passed by slaves in the field would sing “The bonnie Blue Flag” as a northern newspaper the Rhode Island Providence post said:

“Negroes as a mass have shown no friendship to the union, have neither sought to achieve their liberty nor subdue their masters. The few thousand who have come into our lines at the expanse of whites rather seek a life of laziness and self dependence. Their sympathies are with the rebels.... The truth is there is nothing more humbling than to speak of negro loyalty. Abolition has accerted it from the beginning of the war, but every fact of the times proves its a mere accretion.”
As well as Blackwoods magazine of England said 1862:

“The negros bear the yoke [slavery] cheerfully and heartily join their fortunes to their masters in the great struggle they are know engaged.”

Union officer Charles Francis Adams Jr. (great grandson of President John Adams) wrote in a letter home to his father in 1864 on how seeing slavery first hand versus what was believed in the north before the war said:

“The conviction is forcing itself upon me that African slavery, as it existed in our slave states, was indeed a patriarchal institution, under which the slaves were not, as a whole, unhappy, cruelly treated or overworked. I am forced to this conclusion.”

New Yorker Joseph Holt Ingram while visiting new Orleans said:

“They all appear contented and happy, and highly elated at their sweet anticipations. Say not that the slavery of the Louisianan Negroes is a bitter drought.”
A private from New Hampshire wrote:

“After now having seen slavery for myself , I firmly believe that we yanks have been fooled. It is nothing like we were taught. Why just the other day I saw slaves going to church who were as happy and cheerful as can be.”



"No subject [slavery] has been more generally misunderstood or more persistent misrepresented"
-Jefferson Davis, The Rise And Fall Of The Confederate Government


We all know of the terrible things that can happen when one person [a sinner] has authority over another [Totalitarian governments of last century], slavery is no different. Awful things happened during slavery. However such cases were rare and often protected against by laws. The family unit to me is a good thing, yet it can also be abused such as a father murders a son, a wife murders her husband, daughter, or son, etc. That does not make the family wrong, but wrong in the way it was used. It is the same with police; their job and purpose is good, but in fallen world, there will always be abuse, with governments having the worst record of such abuse. I am not saying that slavery was good, but looking at only the worst cases and to then claim that all of slavery was so evil is deceitful. The real truth of slavery, while not “good” or a wanted circumstance, is far from what is generally known or believed.

Most Americans, during, prior, and after the Civil War, got their knowledge of slavery not from observation (besides the worst very real cases such as runaway slaves , good thing for Christians like Harriet Tubman “The Moses of her people”), but from books on slavery, such as Uncle Tom's Cabin, by Harriot Stowe. Harriot Stowe had never even been to the south or seen a plantation. Other misinformation and false views of slavery came from anti-slavery tracts such as The Liberator, by abolitionist William Lloyd Garrison. Despite the lack of accurate information, both authors had a large impact on the view of slavery in the North and Europe. The institution was far from the evil it is portrayed as, and in many cases better for the black than their treatment in the North and Europe. Slavery was a very profitable economy for the master, the driving factor to keep slavery in the south (not race). Slavery was a good investment, far out producing northern free labor by 35%. In Natchez, Mississippi, a population of 6,600 in 1861, there were over 500 millionaires. Besides NYC, it had more millionaires than any other city in the world.
---------------
“The CSA congress can have no such power over states officers. The state governments are an essential part of the political system, upon the separate and independent sovereignty of the states the foundation of the confederacy”
-1864 Virginia supremeCourt

1stvermont
Vermont, VT, USA
Posts: 67
Re: Look Away!!! Politically Incorrect Thread on Slavery
Posted on: 8/19/2017 12:46:58 PM
“If you can cut the people off from their history, then they can be easily persuaded.”
-Karl Marx


"Who controls the past controls the future. Who controls the present controls the past."
-George Orwell, 198


“It means that the history of this heroic struggle will be written by the enemy; that our youth will be trained by Northern school teachers; will learn from Northern school books their version of the War, will be impressed by all influences of history and education to regard our gallant dead as traitors, our maimed veterans as fit objects for their derision.”
-Major General Patrick Cleburne, C.S.A. Jan. 2, 1864



What I am not saying

As a Christian I do not think slavery is a good or wanted practice. I also see the South as moving away from our founder’s view of slavery. For example, on March, 21 1861 Confederate Vice President Alexander Stevens said:

“The prevailing ideas entertained by him [Thomas Jefferson] and most of the leading statesmen at the time of the formation of the old Constitution were that the enslavement of the African was in violation of the laws of nature – that it was wrong in principle – socially, morally, and politically. It was an evil they knew not well how to deal with, but the general opinion of the men of that day was that somehow or other, in the order of Providence, the institution would be evanescent [temporary] and pass away.”

I see slavery as inconsistent with the beliefs and values of many of the freedom and liberty loving founders of the republic of this nation. These founders overwhelmingly wanted to outlaw slavery.


What I am saying

"Slavery is a moral evil in any society...more so to the white than to the black."
-Robert E Lee 1856


I am saying that slavery as commonly assumed is not the slavery of the majority in the American South. This modern vast evil view of slavery started post ww2. I will defend the South and slavery; not to say slavery was good, but to tell the side of slavery and of the Confederacy that most would otherwise not hear. Telling only part of the history of the south is misleading, and that is what we have a lot of today. Many people picture slavery as a white man with whip in hand, ready to use on any black slave; and slaves working in the field, mistreated and abused. While it is true that horrible things happened during slavery and in the Confederacy, these were the exception, not the rule. I am also making the assumption that you all know the terrible things that did occur during slavery, such as rape, murder, mistreatment, etc. These offenses can happen whenever one sinful human being [we all are sinful] has power over another [Just look at the totalitarian governments of last century]. My hope here is to fill in the historical facts you may be missing, to give a bigger and more accurate picture of slavery in the south.

Is slavery unique to America? The history of slavery

“The idea of slavery was so deeply ingrained that no one questioned its propriety. All nations enjoyed it.”
-A.O Sherrard, Freedom from Fear


“In 1860, according to the census measure of wealth, the average southerner white male was nearly twice as wealthy as the average northern white male”
-James McPherson Battle cry of Freedom


Economical imperative brought on slavery in America, not some preconceived racial bias. Slavery is not an American idea or a white idea. Slavery has been going on in thousands of nations since almost the beginning of time. Slavery was in America before any white men arrived. All races and groups of people have forced slavery on others of their own race and of other groups of people. Ancient cultures like Athens/Sparta had a 3-1 ration of slave to free man. When a culture denominated another culture, historically the result was slavery. The Romans owned slaves throughout the known world. The Romans had so many slaves that multiple large scale slave uprisings occurred. Arab Muslims enslaved a estimated 10 million Africans.

Aztec's in South America always had and still have slaves in large numbers in South America. Native Americans enslaved other Native Americans. Multiple groups of Native American’s were cannibals and ate their victims. They also branded, burned them at the stake, buried them alive, killed them, or forced them into prostitution. Native Americans enslaved not only their own people, but whites and blacks as well. Most of the Native American tribes fought for the Confederacy and were owners of black slaves at the time of Civil War. For example, one Choctaw Indian owned 227 blacks as slaves. Some native tribes like the Haida had slaves up until the 1950's in America. The Chinese and Asians also had slaves; In China, the Buddhist owned slaves.

Africans had enslaved their own people in larger numbers and for longer periods before any white men came to Africa. Africa’s number one export was slaves; this was the case even before any white men came to purchase slaves. In Africa, blacks enslaved whites and millions of their own people. Some countries in Africa had as high as 75-90% of the population enslaved by fellow blacks. Throughout history all races have enslaved other races and people of their own race. Only 6% of slaves that were imported to the western world from Africa in 1640-1820 came to America; most went to places like Brazil, Cuba, the Caribbean’s, etc. Slavery in America only lasted 222 years, versus slavery in Europe and Africa which lasted thousands of years. Slaves in America were not reduced to slavery here, but were already enslaved in Africa before being sold to traders. There is an estimated 30 million slaves in the world today [2015], more than at any other time in history.

White slavery in America and the world

When some people hear the word slavery, they automatically picture a black slave and white master. It seems often that only whites can be guilty of slavery. However, just as any other people group, whites have been enslaved. Muslim Arabs have been enslaving whites, Christians, and Jews since around 600 A.D. Muslims sold whites into slavery in Africa; Over 1.5 million whites were enslaved during the 1700's in Africa. Whites [and Americans] were enslaved by the millions by North Africans and Muslims, forcing the USA to build a navy and go to war to stop the enslavement. In 1816, England went to war in Africa to free 3,000 English people.
Whites have been enslaved “From Virginia to Barbados.” The English enslaved Irish/Vikings and Scots by the millions. In the English colonies of early America, prior to 1640, most sugar growing was done by forced white labor. In 1527, Native Americans enslaved white Spanish settlers in Florida. During the 1500's in Virginia, Algonquins Indians enslaved whites. The enslavement of whites was legal in Massachusetts in 1658. In England, a 1765 report gave a 90% mortality rate for slave children in “workhouses” in England.
The word slave derives from slav, a Caucasian ethnic group often taken and enslaved by Muslims from the Ottoman Empire. Blacks in America [and the first slave holder in American history Anthony Johnson] owned whites and blacks as slaves. As white slaves and indentured servants decreased from Scotland/Ireland/Germany, the need for African slaves increased. By around 1756, it became mostly black slavery in America. According to John Adams, white labor was preferred by most to black labor at that time. Joseph Stalin enslaved an estimated 14.5 million of his own people [Russians]. There were white slaves in the south during the Civil War. There are accounts of white slaves in Virginia. As well, in letters between John Bell Hood and General Sherman, Sherman offered help to the citizens of Atlanta and slaves black and white after the fall of Atlanta (indicating the presence of white slaves in Georgia).

“Did you know poor whites like slaves had to git a pass? I mean, a remit like as slaves, to sell anythin an to go places, or do anythin Jest as we Colored people, dey had to go to some big white man like Colonel Allen, dey did.....0ld Marster wuz more hard on dem poor white forks den he wus on us niggers......two sets of white folks slaves up my way....Dese two families worked on..Allen's farm as we did Off from us on a plot called Morgan's lot, there dey lived as slaves jes like us colored fo'ks Yes de poor whiteman had some dark an  tough days. like us poor niggers I mean worked lashed an treated, sore of dem, jest as pitiful an unmerciful.”
-Charles Charley Virginia Slave Narratives


African slaves coming to America- The source of American slaves

Slavery was not invented by Americans, it was inherited from Great Britain. Americans did not go to Africa and kidnap free blacks to force them into slavery. The slaves brought over from Africa were already enslaved by their own people; before 1820, no free blacks came to America. However, when the slaves did come to America they would usually be given the chance to buy or earn their freedom. Without the help from Africans, the transatlantic slave trade would not have been profitable and would not have come to America. As one slave ship captain said in the 1700's, “I have only transported them from one master to another.” Slavery in Africa was around before any white man came to Africa, and lasted long after slavery was ended in America. The origins of the slavery of Africans comes from Africa, not America, thousands of years before the first white man purchased a black slave. When American slave ships came to Africa, slavery was an already booming export of Africa. Most of African slaves had been sold and gone west to Arab Muslims and Asia. Africans enslaved their own people in numbers far greater than any country in the world; slavery being Africa’s number one export. Slavery was so common it was often used as money or payment; soldiers were sometimes paid with slaves. In some places in Africa, as much as 90% of the population was enslaved. Estimates in 1860 in Central Africa suggest a ratio of 3-1 slave to free man existed. Zanzibar's population was 75% slaves. The quality of life for the African slave that was brought to America improved in every-way (see below for more details).


Who abolished slavery in Africa?

Some African countries maintained legal slavery until 2007, such as the African Muslim country of Mauritania. There was no abolition movement within Pagan/Muslim Africa to end slavery before the American civil war. It was the white Christian pressure to abolish slavery in Africa. No race gets blamed more for slavery than whites, yet no race has done more to abolish slavery than whites.

Opinions toward slavery and blacks in America before the Civil war- The Americn Revolution and the generation following 1776-1830

“In the period of the American revolution the interest of the south in slavery declined”
-Historian Francis B Simkins, quoted in Myths of American slavery


“Regret for the presence of the African on the soil, was the universal felling of that generation which succeeded the revolution”
-Thomas Jefferson speaking of Virginia, Quoted in a defense of Virginia and the south R. L. Dabney


“There was a growing felling all over the south for its abolition”
-Jeff Davis CSA president, The life and death of Jefferson Davis



Founders view of slavery

“The American revolution gave an enormous impetus to the struggle against slavery”
-Robert William Fogel The Rise and Fall of American Slavery



Upwards of 70% of the early Americans founders were anti-slavery abolitionist. But the individual states had power to determine their own slavery laws. While a few states continued to allow slavery, most did not. The states were allowed this individual control with the agreement that the slave trade would be outlawed in 20 years. Before the revolution, many Americans tried numerous times to end slavery before the war, yet England would not allow it. Once we were our own nation many founders and Americans released their slaves or outlawed slavery in their state. Many in the south wanted to end slavery including slave holders. Abolitionist worked together in the North and South, yet disagreed on how to end slavery. Northerners generally wanted slaves to go back to Africa, or simply let them free in America; Others [North and South] wanted them educated before letting them free. Southerners generally wanted slaves brought back to Africa and desired financial support for the loss of money associated with letting slaves go free. Since almost the entire southern economy was agrarian, to lose all the slaves would put the masters and family at risk of starvation. For example, a former slave said of his master,

“I cannot forget old massa. He was good and kind. He never believed in slavery but his money was tied up in slaves and he didn't want to lose all he had. I knows I will see him in heaven and even though I have to walk ten miles for a bite of bread I can still be happy to think about the good times we had then.”
-Gus Brown, Virginia Slave Narratives


“If slavery did not now exist amongst them, they would not introduce it If it did now exist amongst us, we should not instantly give it up.... When southern people tell us they are no more responsible for the origin of slavery, than we; I acknowledge the fact. When it is said that the institution exists; and that it is very difficult to get rid of it, in any satisfactory way, I can understand and appreciate the saying. I surely will not blame them for not doing what I should not know how to do myself. If all earthly power were given me, I should not know what to do, as to the existing institution”
Abraham Lincoln


In 1787 the American states, north and south, unanimous outlawed slavery for states wishing to come into union from the west, thus limiting slavery [northwest ordinance]. After American gained its independence from England. In 1789 Georgia outlawed the slave trade 10 years before federal law would take effect. North Carolina
outlawed the trade in 1794. In 1807, Representative Peter Early of Georgia declared before a congressional committee “We of the south consider slavery a dreadful evil.” By 1827, 4/5 of abolitionist organizations were from the south, both slave owning and non slave owning members. The number of slaves let free [with no monetary compensation] by slave owners in the two decades after the ratification of the US constitution doubled each decade. In 1822, America purchased Liberia in Africa for returning slaves. In 1828 the governor of Mississippi, the state with the largest population of slaves and producer of cotton, said “slavery is an evil at best.” The 1832 the Mississippi constitution limited slavery imports to the state. 1832 Virginia politician Charles Faulkner said, “Slavery, it is admitted, is an evil.” On June 9, 1832 Virginia legislature George Dinwiddie said, “Slavery is an evil.” In 1835, a southern slave owner said of abolitionism “So also is the south, with but a few exceptions.” Clearly, overall, north and south, was just as the founders said and thought, slavery was dying of natural causes.

Early black heroes and patriots of the Revolution and elected officials

During the American Revolution blacks and whites fought together. There were many black heroes and patriots of the war unknown to most today. Black heroes like Peter Salem, the hero of Bunker Hill; James Armistead, the hero of Yorktown and America’s first double spy. There were other battles, such as Lexington, where black patriots fought and were heroes of the battle. The first American shot dead in the war was a black man.

There were early black elected officials like Wentworth Cheswell, who was first elected in 1768 and then elected to multiple offices from 1768-1817. Thomas Hercules was another, elected in 1792. Blacks were elected to congress in the 1800's.  There were early black federal American elected officials such as black Judge Winthrop Chestnut, who was elected as judge in 1775 in New Hampshire. Joseph Hayne Rainey overcame slavery to become the first African American elected to the U. S. Congress, even presiding over the U. S. House. There were many other early black heroes such as Absalom Jones, or Benjamin Bennker, who was born in 1731 and would become what Thomas Jefferson called “The greatest scientist in American history.” 

The first self made woman millionaire in America was African American madam C.J Walker.  “I am a woman who came from the cotton fields of the South. From there I was promoted to the washtub. From there I was promoted to the cook kitchen. And from there I promoted myself into the business of manufacturing hair goods and preparations….I have built my own factory on my own ground.”  There were free blacks in the North and South who voted; Baltimore had more black votes than whites. More blacks than whites in Maryland voted to ratify the constitution.

1830-1860 Slavery in the South begins to grow and move away from the founder’s republic

So what caused pro slavery to increase in the American south? There were two main factors. Slaves were generally first used on sugar plantations [white and black], however with the invention of the cotton gin by Eli Whitney, it made mass produce of cotton very valuable, and was best grown in the southern climate. With large money to be had, the moral Christian [and southern abolitionist movement that was growing] implications of slavery abated. In 1791, only 400 cotton bales were produced in the United States; by 1860, 3,841,416 bales were produced in the south, 2/3 of the world’s production. Some have said the invention of the cotton gin was responsible for the Civil War.

“Had the cotton gin of Massachusetts inventor Eli Whitney not come on the scene in the late 1700’s, African slavery in this country was most likely doomed. The antislavery and emancipation feeling in the South was ascendant, but thwarted by profitable slave-trading and hungry cotton mills in New England which gave rise to more plantations in the South, and the perpetuation of slavery.”
-Bernhard Thuersam- Director Cape Fear Historical Institute NC


The second factor was the south’s reaction to northern abolitionist. During the second great awaking in America [Large Christian conversion], large numbers converted to Christ and the leading preachers started preaching slavery not just as a morally wrong as had been preached by previous abolitionist pastors, but as a sin in of itself. Southern theologians objected. This caused northern abolitionist to demand immediate freeing of slaves with no financial support to the slave owners. This is because sin does not deserve financial support or any help, but must be stopped immediately.

The southerners [abolitionist] wanted financial support and a slow release of slaves to Africa. Abolitionist from the north went down south and agitated blacks and whites to rise up in violence against masters, such as the Nat Turner rebellion in 1831. This caused the south to push back harder against the northern abolitionist and enforce harsh “slave codes.” This led to some masters no longer allowing slaves to learn to read for fear they would read abolitionist material and rise up against the owners. North Carolina’s free blacks could no longer vote. Northern abolitionists started to be viewed as dangerous and radicals. The south was concerned with a mass release of slaves in their states [former pagan cannabis from Africa and recent slave uprising in Hati and other places causes major fear] and did not want the entire southern economy to collapse; an economy which was based on cotton and agriculture. This pushed the north and south apart. Eventually all things southern became evil, and two distinct cultures and ways of life started to grow. The north starting hating southern culture and the south starting hating northern culture. From this distain of each other’s culture, the feud became more than just about slavery. As the nation grew so did the southern states, including slave states as they went west expanding from just the few original slave colonies of early America.

Free blacks in the confederacy/ Black men as slave owners in the confederacy/ Native American men as slave owners in the confederacy

There were thousands of free blacks in the south; in Virginia alone there were over 58,000 free blacks before the war. Virginia freed more slaves before 1861 than NY, NJ, Pennsylvanian and New England combined. In 1830 free blacks made up 24% of the population of New Orleans, by far the the largest southern city. Free blacks owned firearms and used whip on their slaves as punishment. Many blacks entered the middle class and some became “rich” plantation owners, earning many times that of the average white southerner. Many notable confederate figures released their slaves and were anti slavery, such as Robert E. Lee and John Randolf.

America's first slave owner

America's first slave owner (not indentured servant, but slave being life long property) was Anthony Johnson from Virginia in 1653. He was a black man who owned John Castor, a black man, and another white man. In the court case Johnson vs Parker in Northampton county Virginia, it was declared that the two men he owned were his property for life.

Black men who owned slaves in the confederacy

There were thousands of free black men who were slave owners in the confederacy; who supported slavery and the south. In the 1830 census, there were more than 10,000 free men of color who owned slaves; from South Carolina, Louisianan, Virginia, and Maryland alone. Black plantation owners hired white “labours” to work on plantations alongside black slaves. Black owners used whips and the same punishments as white owners did on their slaves. Slave ownership was common among free blacks. In South Carolina in 1840, the percent of free blacks owning slaves was between 72.1-77.7%. In South Carolina, many black slave owners did not release the slaves after war, instead they were forced to by the federal government.

Black slave owners were generally as wealthy as white slave owners. A colored master near Canve River, LA had 7 plantations, owned 15,000 acres, worked more than 379 slaves valued at $1,000,000. The following are examples of black men and women who owned slaves: Auguste Donatto of St. Laundry Parish, LA owned a 500 acre plantation and at least 70 slaves. Justus Angel and Mistress L. Horry owned 84 slaves. Widow C. Richards and her son P.C. Richards owned over 100 slaves. Antoine Dubuclet's estimated value was $264,000; the average white southerner's value was less than $4,000. The Metoyer family of LA owned 400 black slaves. John Stanley of south Carolina owned 163 slaves. William Ellison of South Carolina owned over 100 acres and over 60 slaves. He also had a reputation for his brutal treatment of slaves (chaining up misbehaving slaves), slave breeding practices, and would not allow any of his slaves to buy their freedom.

African Slave Owners

The vast majority of slaves brought to America from Africa were bought from slave owning and trading blacks in Africa, who already enslaved other blacks and had them for sale.

Native American men as slave owners in the confederacy


The majority of Native American tribes supported and fought for the south in the civil war. Most of the tribes were owners of black slaves. At times they sexually exploited the slaves and physically abused them; they were regarded as harsher masters than the white man. Native American's also enslaved white men and other Native American groups throughout their history.


Slavery today

“You know that moment when you read something, and then immediately have to re-read it because you cannot believe it is true? That happened to me when I read that the levels of slavery and people trafficking today are greater than at any point in history.”
-Freedom Project on cnn.com, Modern Day Slavery a Problem That Cant be Ignored


“Trafficking is a crime that involves every nation on earth, and that includes our own”
`Hilary Clinton


“Each year 800,000 to 900,000 human beings are bought,sold, or forced across the worlds boarders”
`President George Bush, 2003


What many are unaware of is that there are more slaves today than in any other time in history. Global estimates of those enslaved today range from 21-36 million, with 100,000 enslaved at this moment in the US. According to the book Not for sale- the return of the global slave trade “More slaves live in bondage today than were bartered during four centuries of the trans Atlantic slave trade.” It is a trade that is worth $32 billion annually. In west Africa, 200,000 children are sold into slavery each year. As president Barack Obama said, “It's time to call human trafficking what it is slavery.” Often they are labor slaves, sex slaves, or slave soldiers. Among them, labor slaves and sex slaves are treated far worst than the typical slave was in the old south. Enslaved prostitute and forced labor slave are payed less, work more, is beaten more, is less healthy, has less free time, has worse living quarters. Given that it is illegal [ in USA], many are locked up and hidden when they are not working and their entire lives are confined to the work place with no laws to protect them. There is a larger demand for slaves today than at any point in history, even though it is illegal. Unlike in the old south, where a slave was a investment, to be cared for, today's slave once they lose their value are discarded and mistreated.


Main References

Born in Slavery: Slave Narratives from the Federal Writers' Project, 1936-1938
http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/snhtml/mesnbibVolumes1.html
Time on the Cross: The Economics of American Negro Slavery by Robert William Fogel and Stanley Engermann 1974 W.W Norton and company NY,NY.
Without Consent or Contract The Rise and Fall of American Slavery Robert Fogel W.W Norton NY London 1989
A Defense Of Virginia And The South R.L Dabney 1867 Sprinkle publications
Myths & Realities of American Slavery John C Perry Burd Street Press 2011
Myths of American slavery Walter D Kennedy 2003 Pelican publishing company
Freedom and Fear. The Slave and his Emancipation by A.O Shearrard 1959
Black Slaveowners: Free Black Slave Masters in South Carolina, 1790-1860 Larry Koger 1995 Mcfarland
Everything You Were Taught About American Slavery Is Wrong Ask A Southerner Lochlainn Seabrook Sea raven press 2014
Black Confederates and Afro-Yankees in Civil War Virginia by Erwin L Jordan JR University of Virginia Press 1995
Black Southerners in Confederate Armies: A Collection of Historical Accounts  J.H Segars and barrow 2012 Pelican
Black Confederates by Charles Kelly Borrow 2001 Pelican Press
The Confederate States of America, 1861--1865: A History of the South by E.Merton coulter 1950
Rutland Free Library Rutland, Vermont
33 questions about American history you're not suppose to ask Thomas Woods Crown forum NY 2007

---------------
“The CSA congress can have no such power over states officers. The state governments are an essential part of the political system, upon the separate and independent sovereignty of the states the foundation of the confederacy”
-1864 Virginia supremeCourt

Gregory C. White
Canton, GA, USA
Posts: 172
Re: Look Away!!! Politically Incorrect Thread on Slavery
Posted on: 8/21/2017 6:37:41 PM
Thanks for sharing, 1st Vermont.

Your sources obviously were not consulted by Alex Haley in his fictional
and error-filled epic, "Roots".
---------------
"I do not believe that any man can adequately appreciate the world of to-day unless he has some knowledge of...[and] some feeling for...the history of the world of the past." Theodore Roosevelt

Gregory C. White
Canton, GA, USA
Posts: 172
Re: Look Away!!! Politically Incorrect Thread on Slavery
Posted on: 8/21/2017 6:37:43 PM
Thanks for sharing, 1st Vermont.

Your sources obviously were not consulted by Alex Haley in his fictional
and error-filled epic, "Roots".
---------------
"I do not believe that any man can adequately appreciate the world of to-day unless he has some knowledge of...[and] some feeling for...the history of the world of the past." Theodore Roosevelt

Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
Posts: 2772
Re: Look Away!!! Politically Incorrect Thread on Slavery
Posted on: 8/21/2017 8:54:07 PM
Hi 1st Vermont,

Wow lots of info here, & some people use just two words to cover it, "Peculiar Institution"?

Very eye opening, thanks for sharing,
MD
---------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

Lightning
Glasgow, UK
Posts: 442
Re: Look Away!!! Politically Incorrect Thread on Slavery
Posted on: 8/22/2017 7:24:45 AM
Hi 1st Vermont,

A well written defence of slavery, my summary of your argument as follows:

"Other people/nations were doing it too."

"African Americans were slightly healthier for being slaves so they should have just got on with it."

"Some slaves liked being slaves, as at least they got fed."

"Some blacks owned slaves themselves."

"It would have died out over time".


All of the above is probably true, but escapes the reality that in 1861, when every other western society had abolished chattel slavery, 4 million human beings were held in bondage as property by other human beings, with their freedom determined as a business transaction. People were born to be slaves, to be owned by other people, with no freedom to choose their own destiny or follow their own dreams beyond what was permitted by their owners. Reflect on that, please, before you defend this peculiar institution.

That slavery existed elsewhere isn't in question; rarely, though, was the institution of slavery so set down on racial lines. The Barbary pirates, for example, enslaved everyone and anyone they could get their hands on, as did the slavers working in the Middle East.

As far as I know, there were no white slaves (other than those captured by Native Americans) in North America in 1861. Slavery had become not just an economic tool, but the existence of it became a way of life and culture in itself, as well as social apartheid that was deliberately set up to keep white people (and in particular, landowning white people) in complete dominance and black people in a subservient role. The Southern states had absolutely no intention on giving its slaves.

There will be some, I'm sure, who feel confident to argue that the Civil War wasn't fought over slavery; some slave states remained in the Union, they argue. Indeed, that's true, but if it was the fundamental rights of states to draw up and enforce their own legislation that drove them from the Union, it was the single issues of the Federal government being eventually able to outnumber the slave states and force through abolition that forced their hand. Whilst the 'agricultural vs industrial' economy debate would have went on (as it did elsewhere in the world), would this really alone have led to armed conflict? Only the prospect of eventual abolition brought the Confederacy to arms.

Thanks for your post, but I actually found myself getting angry reading it.

Cheers,

Colin
---------------
"There is no course open to us but to fight it out. Every position must be held to the last man: there must be no retirement. With our backs to the wall and believing in the justice of our cause, each one of us must fight to the end."

OpanaPointer
St. Louis, MO, USA
Posts: 466
Re: Look Away!!! Politically Incorrect Thread on Slavery
Posted on: 8/22/2017 7:42:32 AM
Apologetics are pretty much the same whatever the topic.

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
Posts: 5313
Re: Look Away!!! Politically Incorrect Thread on Slavery
Posted on: 8/22/2017 9:24:22 AM

Quote:
Hi 1st Vermont,

A well written defence of slavery, my summary of your argument as follows:

"Other people/nations were doing it too."

"African Americans were slightly healthier for being slaves so they should have just got on with it."

"Some slaves liked being slaves, as at least they got fed."

"Some blacks owned slaves themselves."

"It would have died out over time".


All of the above is probably true, but escapes the reality that in 1861, when every other western society had abolished chattel slavery, 4 million human beings were held in bondage as property by other human beings, with their freedom determined as a business transaction. People were born to be slaves, to be owned by other people, with no freedom to choose their own destiny or follow their own dreams beyond what was permitted by their owners. Reflect on that, please, before you defend this peculiar institution.

That slavery existed elsewhere isn't in question; rarely, though, was the institution of slavery so set down on racial lines. The Barbary pirates, for example, enslaved everyone and anyone they could get their hands on, as did the slavers working in the Middle East.

As far as I know, there were no white slaves (other than those captured by Native Americans) in North America in 1861. Slavery had become not just an economic tool, but the existence of it became a way of life and culture in itself, as well as social apartheid that was deliberately set up to keep white people (and in particular, landowning white people) in complete dominance and black people in a subservient role. The Southern states had absolutely no intention on giving its slaves.

There will be some, I'm sure, who feel confident to argue that the Civil War wasn't fought over slavery; some slave states remained in the Union, they argue. Indeed, that's true, but if it was the fundamental rights of states to draw up and enforce their own legislation that drove them from the Union, it was the single issues of the Federal government being eventually able to outnumber the slave states and force through abolition that forced their hand. Whilst the 'agricultural vs industrial' economy debate would have went on (as it did elsewhere in the world), would this really alone have led to armed conflict? Only the prospect of eventual abolition brought the Confederacy to arms.

Thanks for your post, but I actually found myself getting angry reading it.

Cheers,

Colin
--Lightning



Glad that you said it Colin.

All that was missing was a video of happy darkies singin' and dancin' while they picked cotton.

1stvermont
Vermont, VT, USA
Posts: 67
Re: Look Away!!! Politically Incorrect Thread on Slavery
Posted on: 8/22/2017 6:58:23 PM

Quote:
Hi 1st Vermont,

A well written defence of slavery, my summary of your argument as follows:

"Other people/nations were doing it too."

"African Americans were slightly healthier for being slaves so they should have just got on with it."

"Some slaves liked being slaves, as at least they got fed."

"Some blacks owned slaves themselves."

"It would have died out over time".


All of the above is probably true, but escapes the reality that in 1861, when every other western society had abolished chattel slavery, 4 million human beings were held in bondage as property by other human beings, with their freedom determined as a business transaction. People were born to be slaves, to be owned by other people, with no freedom to choose their own destiny or follow their own dreams beyond what was permitted by their owners. Reflect on that, please, before you defend this peculiar institution.

That slavery existed elsewhere isn't in question; rarely, though, was the institution of slavery so set down on racial lines. The Barbary pirates, for example, enslaved everyone and anyone they could get their hands on, as did the slavers working in the Middle East.

As far as I know, there were no white slaves (other than those captured by Native Americans) in North America in 1861. Slavery had become not just an economic tool, but the existence of it became a way of life and culture in itself, as well as social apartheid that was deliberately set up to keep white people (and in particular, landowning white people) in complete dominance and black people in a subservient role. The Southern states had absolutely no intention on giving its slaves.

There will be some, I'm sure, who feel confident to argue that the Civil War wasn't fought over slavery; some slave states remained in the Union, they argue. Indeed, that's true, but if it was the fundamental rights of states to draw up and enforce their own legislation that drove them from the Union, it was the single issues of the Federal government being eventually able to outnumber the slave states and force through abolition that forced their hand. Whilst the 'agricultural vs industrial' economy debate would have went on (as it did elsewhere in the world), would this really alone have led to armed conflict? Only the prospect of eventual abolition brought the Confederacy to arms.

Thanks for your post, but I actually found myself getting angry reading it.

Cheers,

Colin
--Lightning



well I am unsure you read my post given your comments. Question, why does only "western" aka "white" nations abolition matter to you? do you expect more from them than say africans who had legal slavery past 2000? But overall I would agree with most of your post. I just think you have misunderstood my purpose and stance on the subject. Hopefully below will help.




What I am not saying

As a Christian I do not think slavery is a good or wanted practice. I also see the South as moving away from our founder’s view of slavery. For example, on March, 21 1861 Confederate Vice President Alexander Stevens said:

“The prevailing ideas entertained by him [Thomas Jefferson] and most of the leading statesmen at the time of the formation of the old Constitution were that the enslavement of the African was in violation of the laws of nature – that it was wrong in principle – socially, morally, and politically. It was an evil they knew not well how to deal with, but the general opinion of the men of that day was that somehow or other, in the order of Providence, the institution would be evanescent [temporary] and pass away.”

I see slavery as inconsistent with the beliefs and values of many of the freedom and liberty loving founders of the republic of this nation. These founders overwhelmingly wanted to outlaw slavery.


What I am saying

"Slavery is a moral evil in any society...more so to the white than to the black."
-Robert E Lee 1856


I am saying that slavery as commonly assumed is not the slavery of the majority in the American South. This modern vast evil view of slavery started post ww2. I will defend the South and slavery; not to say slavery was good, but to tell the side of slavery and of the Confederacy that most would otherwise not hear. Telling only part of the history of the south is misleading, and that is what we have a lot of today. Many people picture slavery as a white man with whip in hand, ready to use on any black slave; and slaves working in the field, mistreated and abused. While it is true that horrible things happened during slavery and in the Confederacy, these were the exception, not the rule. I am also making the assumption that you all know the terrible things that did occur during slavery, such as rape, murder, mistreatment, etc. These offenses can happen whenever one sinful human being [we all are sinful] has power over another [Just look at the totalitarian governments of last century]. My hope here is to fill in the historical facts you may be missing, to give a bigger and more accurate picture of slavery in the south.




Thanks for your comments and keeping them civil. perhaps have a beer or two, calm down and reread thew entire thing from the perspective of historical information. I think it could be a great read if you do so, I would also value your comments.








---------------
“The CSA congress can have no such power over states officers. The state governments are an essential part of the political system, upon the separate and independent sovereignty of the states the foundation of the confederacy”
-1864 Virginia supremeCourt

1stvermont
Vermont, VT, USA
Posts: 67
Re: Look Away!!! Politically Incorrect Thread on Slavery
Posted on: 8/22/2017 7:00:31 PM

Quote:
Thanks for sharing, 1st Vermont.

Your sources obviously were not consulted by Alex Haley in his fictional
and error-filled epic, "Roots".
--Gregory C. White



Nor Harriet Beecher Stowe.
---------------
“The CSA congress can have no such power over states officers. The state governments are an essential part of the political system, upon the separate and independent sovereignty of the states the foundation of the confederacy”
-1864 Virginia supremeCourt

1stvermont
Vermont, VT, USA
Posts: 67
Re: Look Away!!! Politically Incorrect Thread on Slavery
Posted on: 8/22/2017 7:10:23 PM

Quote:

Quote:
Hi 1st Vermont,

A well written defence of slavery, my summary of your argument as follows:

"Other people/nations were doing it too."

"African Americans were slightly healthier for being slaves so they should have just got on with it."

"Some slaves liked being slaves, as at least they got fed."

"Some blacks owned slaves themselves."

"It would have died out over time".


All of the above is probably true, but escapes the reality that in 1861, when every other western society had abolished chattel slavery, 4 million human beings were held in bondage as property by other human beings, with their freedom determined as a business transaction. People were born to be slaves, to be owned by other people, with no freedom to choose their own destiny or follow their own dreams beyond what was permitted by their owners. Reflect on that, please, before you defend this peculiar institution.

That slavery existed elsewhere isn't in question; rarely, though, was the institution of slavery so set down on racial lines. The Barbary pirates, for example, enslaved everyone and anyone they could get their hands on, as did the slavers working in the Middle East.

As far as I know, there were no white slaves (other than those captured by Native Americans) in North America in 1861. Slavery had become not just an economic tool, but the existence of it became a way of life and culture in itself, as well as social apartheid that was deliberately set up to keep white people (and in particular, landowning white people) in complete dominance and black people in a subservient role. The Southern states had absolutely no intention on giving its slaves.

There will be some, I'm sure, who feel confident to argue that the Civil War wasn't fought over slavery; some slave states remained in the Union, they argue. Indeed, that's true, but if it was the fundamental rights of states to draw up and enforce their own legislation that drove them from the Union, it was the single issues of the Federal government being eventually able to outnumber the slave states and force through abolition that forced their hand. Whilst the 'agricultural vs industrial' economy debate would have went on (as it did elsewhere in the world), would this really alone have led to armed conflict? Only the prospect of eventual abolition brought the Confederacy to arms.

Thanks for your post, but I actually found myself getting angry reading it.

Cheers,

Colin
--Lightning



Glad that you said it Colin.

All that was missing was a video of happy darkies singin' and dancin' while they picked cotton.

--George




I must ask, You came into this thread with a view of what slavery was like, you never experienced it, never saw anyone in it, never talked with anyone first hand who did. So where did your opinions/biases come from that makes you conclude slaves could not have any fun while in slavery? is it based on works of fiction and abolitionist fairy tales? or on observable historical facts? just something to think on.



well no video or course, but we do have a quote similar to what you are looking for. A great source for information o slavery is from slaves themselves, who better knows slavery?. here are some of them from my op.



“Cotton pickin was big fun too, and when dey got through pickin de cotton dey et and drank and danced till dey could dance no more”
-Rachael Adams Georgia Slave Narratives

"Wen I sit and think of all the good things we had to eat an all the fun we had, 'course we had to work, but you knows, when a crowd all works togather and sings and laughs, first thing you know--the works all done."
-Ellen King, Mississippi Slave Narratives

"Lawsey man, dem were de days! We usta have some good times. We could have all the fun we wanted on Sa'dday nights, and we sho had it, cuttin monkey shines, and dancing all night long. Sometimes our mistis would come down early to watch us."
-Sidney Bonner, Alabama Slave Narratives


“Slavery times wuz sho good times. We wuz fed an' clothed an' had nothin to worry about”
-Sarah and Tom Douglas, Alabama Slave Narratives

“In slavery days the negroes had quilt tings, dances, picnics and everybody had a good time”
Arrie Binns Georgia slave narratives

“Dem days fore de war was good old days, speically for de colored folks..oh missy dem was good old days us would be lucky to have em back. You could hear niggers singin in de fields cause dey diden't have no worries lak dey got now...dat cornshukin wuz easy wid everyone sigin and havin a good time together...old times when folkes loved one another den dey does now.”
Jasper Battle Georgia Slave Narratives

“How they sang; how they laughed and grinned...heard amongst the black folks endless singing, shouting and laughter; and saw on holidays black gentlemen and ladies arrayed in such splendor and comfort as freeborn workmen in our english towns seldom exhibit”
-English novelist, William M. Thackeray








---------------
“The CSA congress can have no such power over states officers. The state governments are an essential part of the political system, upon the separate and independent sovereignty of the states the foundation of the confederacy”
-1864 Virginia supremeCourt

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
Posts: 5313
Re: Look Away!!! Politically Incorrect Thread on Slavery
Posted on: 8/22/2017 8:01:55 PM
I read your post 1st Vermont. It was lengthy and a little too pat.

The fact that other countries also based part of their economies on slave labour is irrelevant.

It comes under the category of, "Oh yeah, we owned slaves but we were good slavers, not like the Africans and Europeans."

I have read the constitution of the US and the existence of the institution of slavery makes a mockery of the claims to equality for all men.

A collection of quotes from slaves who know nothing else does not make the institution of slavery any more palatable.

Their lives were in the hands of others. They were fully dependent on them for their existence.

The evil is in having dominion over the life of a man, as you know.

So I am little impressed by slave accounts telling us that their marsa was a good man who treated them like his own chillin'.

These are the words of people without confidence who are physically and emotionally dependent on the person who owns them.


There was an attempt in one of the quotes in your post to minimize the number of slaves who tried to escape.

We will never know how many tried and failed but I have seen the figure of 100,000 successful escapes when the Underground Railroad was at its peak.

In Canada, historians estimate that 30,000 made it across the border. The numbers increased greatly after the passing of the Fugitive Slave Act in 1850. I admit that there is no census to confirm those numbers. We only have anecdotal evidence from the descendants of black Canadians whose slave ancestors arrived here.

If slaves were trying to escape in minuscule numbers then why was the Fugitive Slave legislation needed in 1850? Really, I would like to know why it was necessary.

But we also know that an escape from the deep south to the north was very difficult. That is why most of the escaped slaves who made it to the north came from the northernmost slave states.

We don't know how many slaves in the deep south made the attempt but failed. It was just too far to go if they headed north and too many slave states to travel through.

It was a lot easier to maintain control of your property in the deep south.

Those who worked in the deep south often headed in the other direction to Florida. Slaves from the British sugar islands also tried to escape to Florida. There was slavery in Florida but the institution's Spanish roots made it somewhat gentler than in the US states or the sugar islands.

If only 100,000 out of 4 million slaves actually made an escape (2.5%), I would suggest that is significant and sadly very small.

That does not mean that those who could not escape were happy with their lot in life as many of the comments on your post would lead us to believe.

Is there any data to indicate how many slaves "attempted" to escape but were thwarted?

Cheers,

George

1stvermont
Vermont, VT, USA
Posts: 67
Re: Look Away!!! Politically Incorrect Thread on Slavery
Posted on: 8/22/2017 8:52:31 PM

Quote:
I read your post 1st Vermont. It was lengthy and a little too pat.

The fact that other countries also based part of their economies on slave labour is irrelevant.

It comes under the category of, "Oh yeah, we owned slaves but we were good slavers, not like the Africans and Europeans."

I have read the constitution of the US and the existence of the institution of slavery makes a mockery of the claims to equality for all men.

A collection of quotes from slaves who know nothing else does not make the institution of slavery any more palatable.

Their lives were in the hands of others. They were fully dependent on them for their existence.

The evil is in having dominion over the life of a man, as you know.

So I am little impressed by slave accounts telling us that their marsa was a good man who treated them like his own chillin'.

These are the words of people without confidence who are physically and emotionally dependent on the person who owns them.


There was an attempt in one of the quotes in your post to minimize the number of slaves who tried to escape.

We will never know how many tried and failed but I have seen the figure of 100,000 successful escapes when the Underground Railroad was at its peak.

In Canada, historians estimate that 30,000 made it across the border. The numbers increased greatly after the passing of the Fugitive Slave Act in 1850. I admit that there is no census to confirm those numbers. We only have anecdotal evidence from the descendants of black Canadians whose slave ancestors arrived here.

If slaves were trying to escape in minuscule numbers then why was the Fugitive Slave legislation needed in 1850? Really, I would like to know why it was necessary.

But we also know that an escape from the deep south to the north was very difficult. That is why most of the escaped slaves who made it to the north came from the northernmost slave states.

We don't know how many slaves in the deep south made the attempt but failed. It was just too far to go if they headed north and too many slave states to travel through.

It was a lot easier to maintain control of your property in the deep south.

Those who worked in the deep south often headed in the other direction to Florida. Slaves from the British sugar islands also tried to escape to Florida. There was slavery in Florida but the institution's Spanish roots made it somewhat gentler than in the US states or the sugar islands.

If only 100,000 out of 4 million slaves actually made an escape (2.5%), I would suggest that is significant and sadly very small.

That does not mean that those who could not escape were happy with their lot in life as many of the comments on your post would lead us to believe.

Is there any data to indicate how many slaves "attempted" to escape but were thwarted?

Cheers,

George
--George



Thanks for reading the post George and responding to it. I will try and give a point by point response.


-It is not irrelevant to how slavery is taught in education and to the general public, sometimes it seems only america is guilty of slavery. At least it can be presented in such a way.

-I was simply saying far worse forms of slavery existed. Espically where the american slaves came from, western africa.

-many of the creators of the Constitution were slave owners and would disagree. For a philosophical response by a southerner see here
https://www.amazon.com/Defense-Virginia-South-R-Dabney/dp/0873779290

- perhaps, but that was not in my op. Those slaves knew freedom often much more than slavery. they lived in freedom longer than as slaves when interviewed. But what of the slaves who spoke of evils or wrongs they suffered, i bet you would accept them. Plus I would suggest my op was far more than quotes from slaves.

-and?

- I agree somewhat, this is why i hate big government and slave wage labor bosses.

- are not children in the hands of a loving father? we call this family, but when its a slave you dont care anymore?

- we are all in some way to people we love such as family mebmbers, does not have to be bad.


- slave runaways. Great points my freind!! I cant say to much on the underground railroad but i have herd the total runaways were very exaggerated. Here are some sources.



http://www.kentuckypress.com/live/title_detail.php?titleid=1531#.WZzS9_mGO1s
http://www.textbookleague.org/121tubby.htm
https://www.amazon.com/Bound-Promised-Land-Portrait-American/dp/0345456289/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1503449909&sr=8-8&keywords=harriet+tubman


Most all your points are valid and i dont have much to respond to. Clearly an escape from the deep south would be much harder. However many went west with slaves and very few ran away. I know in Missouri the run away was very similar to the south as a whole when it should be increased because its a border state.

https://www.amazon.com/Jesse-James-Last-Rebel-Civil/dp/0375705589

I know according to Lincoln and stanton 95% of slaves never left during the war to union lines when a great opportunity presented itself. And some returned after they did. There is no stats for slaves that attempted that would be impossible to know but your point is valid. Clearly the law was needed as slaves did run away, but that does not conclude a large % did try. A big issue was abolitionist going south giving tracts to slaves and enticing them to run away, where as without them they would have been more content [according to southerners]




Great post and points on runaways.



---------------
“The CSA congress can have no such power over states officers. The state governments are an essential part of the political system, upon the separate and independent sovereignty of the states the foundation of the confederacy”
-1864 Virginia supremeCourt

Gregory C. White
Canton, GA, USA
Posts: 172
Re: Look Away!!! Politically Incorrect Thread on Slavery
Posted on: 8/23/2017 1:12:44 AM

Quote:

Quote:
I read your post 1st Vermont. It was lengthy and a little too pat.

The fact that other countries also based part of their economies on slave labour is irrelevant.

It comes under the category of, "Oh yeah, we owned slaves but we were good slavers, not like the Africans and Europeans."

I have read the constitution of the US and the existence of the institution of slavery makes a mockery of the claims to equality for all men.

A collection of quotes from slaves who know nothing else does not make the institution of slavery any more palatable.

Their lives were in the hands of others. They were fully dependent on them for their existence.

The evil is in having dominion over the life of a man, as you know.

So I am little impressed by slave accounts telling us that their marsa was a good man who treated them like his own chillin'.

These are the words of people without confidence who are physically and emotionally dependent on the person who owns them.


There was an attempt in one of the quotes in your post to minimize the number of slaves who tried to escape.

We will never know how many tried and failed but I have seen the figure of 100,000 successful escapes when the Underground Railroad was at its peak.

In Canada, historians estimate that 30,000 made it across the border. The numbers increased greatly after the passing of the Fugitive Slave Act in 1850. I admit that there is no census to confirm those numbers. We only have anecdotal evidence from the descendants of black Canadians whose slave ancestors arrived here.

If slaves were trying to escape in minuscule numbers then why was the Fugitive Slave legislation needed in 1850? Really, I would like to know why it was necessary.

But we also know that an escape from the deep south to the north was very difficult. That is why most of the escaped slaves who made it to the north came from the northernmost slave states.

We don't know how many slaves in the deep south made the attempt but failed. It was just too far to go if they headed north and too many slave states to travel through.

It was a lot easier to maintain control of your property in the deep south.

Those who worked in the deep south often headed in the other direction to Florida. Slaves from the British sugar islands also tried to escape to Florida. There was slavery in Florida but the institution's Spanish roots made it somewhat gentler than in the US states or the sugar islands.

If only 100,000 out of 4 million slaves actually made an escape (2.5%), I would suggest that is significant and sadly very small.

That does not mean that those who could not escape were happy with their lot in life as many of the comments on your post would lead us to believe.

Is there any data to indicate how many slaves "attempted" to escape but were thwarted?

Cheers,

George
--George



Thanks for reading the post George and responding to it. I will try and give a point by point response.


-It is not irrelevant to how slavery is taught in education and to the general public, sometimes it seems only america is guilty of slavery. At least it can be presented in such a way.

-I was simply saying far worse forms of slavery existed. Espically where the american slaves came from, western africa.

-many of the creators of the Constitution were slave owners and would disagree. For a philosophical response by a southerner see here
https://www.amazon.com/Defense-Virginia-South-R-Dabney/dp/0873779290

- perhaps, but that was not in my op. Those slaves knew freedom often much more than slavery. they lived in freedom longer than as slaves when interviewed. But what of the slaves who spoke of evils or wrongs they suffered, i bet you would accept them. Plus I would suggest my op was far more than quotes from slaves.

-and?

- I agree somewhat, this is why i hate big government and slave wage labor bosses.

- are not children in the hands of a loving father? we call this family, but when its a slave you dont care anymore?

- we are all in some way to people we love such as family mebmbers, does not have to be bad.


- slave runaways. Great points my freind!! I cant say to much on the underground railroad but i have herd the total runaways were very exaggerated. Here are some sources.



http://www.kentuckypress.com/live/title_detail.php?titleid=1531#.WZzS9_mGO1s
http://www.textbookleague.org/121tubby.htm
https://www.amazon.com/Bound-Promised-Land-Portrait-American/dp/0345456289/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1503449909&sr=8-8&keywords=harriet+tubman


Most all your points are valid and i dont have much to respond to. Clearly an escape from the deep south would be much harder. However many went west with slaves and very few ran away. I know in Missouri the run away was very similar to the south as a whole when it should be increased because its a border state.

https://www.amazon.com/Jesse-James-Last-Rebel-Civil/dp/0375705589

I know according to Lincoln and stanton 95% of slaves never left during the war to union lines when a great opportunity presented itself. And some returned after they did. There is no stats for slaves that attempted that would be impossible to know but your point is valid. Clearly the law was needed as slaves did run away, but that does not conclude a large % did try. A big issue was abolitionist going south giving tracts to slaves and enticing them to run away, where as without them they would have been more content [according to southerners]




Great post and points on runaways.




--1stvermont


I think all of us agree the institution of slavery is horrific, regardless of where on the planet
it once existed, or exists even today. Its been around since the earliest days of mankind,and was
not exclusive to the United States or North America.

In today's history-challenged public mindset the four-year existence of the Confederacy (1861-1865)
gets saddled with much of the blame, even though it was practiced legally from 1776-1865 (89 years)
in the United States, including four Union states during the war, with Delaware ending slavery in
December 1865, 8 months after Lee's surrender.

In the 1900s there was a large exodus of poor Blacks(and Whites)leaving the agrarian South for opportunities
in the North because of industry and the growing need for cheap labor to work in factories, mines, etc.

1st Vermont notes that 95% of slaves never left their homes for the "safety" of the Union lines when
the opportunity presented itself. If I'm not mistaken, didn't some Northern states such as Lincoln's home
state of Illinois have laws prohibiting freed slaves from residing and working there ?

Using 1870 census statistics, I'm curious to learn what was the percentage of increased Black population
in the Northern states as compared to 1860 ?

---------------
"I do not believe that any man can adequately appreciate the world of to-day unless he has some knowledge of...[and] some feeling for...the history of the world of the past." Theodore Roosevelt

Phil andrade
London, UK
Posts: 2479
Re: Look Away!!! Politically Incorrect Thread on Slavery
Posted on: 8/23/2017 4:19:59 AM
In the earlier 1970s, I studied Modern History at the University of Oxford.

I chose, for my special subject , Slavery and Secession and the Crisis of the Union, 1850-62.

At that very time there was a heated debate about the historiography and the prevailing view of slavery. Time on the Cross was required reading, , along with myriad other texts and commentaries. Above all, I was required to study the Congressional Globe and use the speeches of the day as a primal source.

One of the authors of Time on the Cross - I forget whether it was Fogel or Engelman ( sp?) - delivered a lecture at which I was present. His speech was repudiated by another American Professor who was also present : his name was Wade ( IIRC) ; he had been advisor to the Democratic nominee and Presidential candidate Humphreys. This is all from memory, so forgive mistakes in name and spelling. I attended Wade's tutorials.

This was all before the era of Political Correctness, although its beginnings could be discerned.

I do not believe that my counterparts today are afforded the same chance to study in such a candid and full on manner .

What you post, 1stvermont, restores my confidence in the excercise of properly countenancing what needs to be addressed.

Regards, Phil
---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

Phil andrade
London, UK
Posts: 2479
Re: Look Away!!! Politically Incorrect Thread on Slavery
Posted on: 8/23/2017 5:08:11 AM
One of the most chilling indictments of the Peculiar Institution was cited by the narrator of that Ken Burns TV documentary series on the Civil War that was broadcast about twenty five years ago.

In a couple of lines the thing was addressed, and forgive error in recitation :

A Mississippi flatboatman summed it up more succinctly.... I''d rather be dead he said than be a nigger on one of those big plantations

Regards, Phil
---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

1stvermont
Vermont, VT, USA
Posts: 67
Re: Look Away!!! Politically Incorrect Thread on Slavery
Posted on: 8/23/2017 5:55:04 AM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:
I read your post 1st Vermont. It was lengthy and a little too pat.

The fact that other countries also based part of their economies on slave labour is irrelevant.

It comes under the category of, "Oh yeah, we owned slaves but we were good slavers, not like the Africans and Europeans."

I have read the constitution of the US and the existence of the institution of slavery makes a mockery of the claims to equality for all men.

A collection of quotes from slaves who know nothing else does not make the institution of slavery any more palatable.

Their lives were in the hands of others. They were fully dependent on them for their existence.

The evil is in having dominion over the life of a man, as you know.

So I am little impressed by slave accounts telling us that their marsa was a good man who treated them like his own chillin'.

These are the words of people without confidence who are physically and emotionally dependent on the person who owns them.


There was an attempt in one of the quotes in your post to minimize the number of slaves who tried to escape.

We will never know how many tried and failed but I have seen the figure of 100,000 successful escapes when the Underground Railroad was at its peak.

In Canada, historians estimate that 30,000 made it across the border. The numbers increased greatly after the passing of the Fugitive Slave Act in 1850. I admit that there is no census to confirm those numbers. We only have anecdotal evidence from the descendants of black Canadians whose slave ancestors arrived here.

If slaves were trying to escape in minuscule numbers then why was the Fugitive Slave legislation needed in 1850? Really, I would like to know why it was necessary.

But we also know that an escape from the deep south to the north was very difficult. That is why most of the escaped slaves who made it to the north came from the northernmost slave states.

We don't know how many slaves in the deep south made the attempt but failed. It was just too far to go if they headed north and too many slave states to travel through.

It was a lot easier to maintain control of your property in the deep south.

Those who worked in the deep south often headed in the other direction to Florida. Slaves from the British sugar islands also tried to escape to Florida. There was slavery in Florida but the institution's Spanish roots made it somewhat gentler than in the US states or the sugar islands.

If only 100,000 out of 4 million slaves actually made an escape (2.5%), I would suggest that is significant and sadly very small.

That does not mean that those who could not escape were happy with their lot in life as many of the comments on your post would lead us to believe.

Is there any data to indicate how many slaves "attempted" to escape but were thwarted?

Cheers,

George
--George



Thanks for reading the post George and responding to it. I will try and give a point by point response.


-It is not irrelevant to how slavery is taught in education and to the general public, sometimes it seems only america is guilty of slavery. At least it can be presented in such a way.

-I was simply saying far worse forms of slavery existed. Espically where the american slaves came from, western africa.

-many of the creators of the Constitution were slave owners and would disagree. For a philosophical response by a southerner see here
https://www.amazon.com/Defense-Virginia-South-R-Dabney/dp/0873779290

- perhaps, but that was not in my op. Those slaves knew freedom often much more than slavery. they lived in freedom longer than as slaves when interviewed. But what of the slaves who spoke of evils or wrongs they suffered, i bet you would accept them. Plus I would suggest my op was far more than quotes from slaves.

-and?

- I agree somewhat, this is why i hate big government and slave wage labor bosses.

- are not children in the hands of a loving father? we call this family, but when its a slave you dont care anymore?

- we are all in some way to people we love such as family mebmbers, does not have to be bad.


- slave runaways. Great points my freind!! I cant say to much on the underground railroad but i have herd the total runaways were very exaggerated. Here are some sources.



http://www.kentuckypress.com/live/title_detail.php?titleid=1531#.WZzS9_mGO1s
http://www.textbookleague.org/121tubby.htm
https://www.amazon.com/Bound-Promised-Land-Portrait-American/dp/0345456289/ref=sr_1_8?ie=UTF8&qid=1503449909&sr=8-8&keywords=harriet+tubman


Most all your points are valid and i dont have much to respond to. Clearly an escape from the deep south would be much harder. However many went west with slaves and very few ran away. I know in Missouri the run away was very similar to the south as a whole when it should be increased because its a border state.

https://www.amazon.com/Jesse-James-Last-Rebel-Civil/dp/0375705589

I know according to Lincoln and stanton 95% of slaves never left during the war to union lines when a great opportunity presented itself. And some returned after they did. There is no stats for slaves that attempted that would be impossible to know but your point is valid. Clearly the law was needed as slaves did run away, but that does not conclude a large % did try. A big issue was abolitionist going south giving tracts to slaves and enticing them to run away, where as without them they would have been more content [according to southerners]




Great post and points on runaways.




--1stvermont


I think all of us agree the institution of slavery is horrific, regardless of where on the planet
it once existed, or exists even today. Its been around since the earliest days of mankind,and was
not exclusive to the United States or North America.

In today's history-challenged public mindset the four-year existence of the Confederacy (1861-1865)
gets saddled with much of the blame, even though it was practiced legally from 1776-1865 (89 years)
in the United States, including four Union states during the war, with Delaware ending slavery in
December 1865, 8 months after Lee's surrender.

In the 1900s there was a large exodus of poor Blacks(and Whites)leaving the agrarian South for opportunities
in the North because of industry and the growing need for cheap labor to work in factories, mines, etc.

1st Vermont notes that 95% of slaves never left their homes for the "safety" of the Union lines when
the opportunity presented itself. If I'm not mistaken, didn't some Northern states such as Lincoln's home
state of Illinois have laws prohibiting freed slaves from residing and working there ?

Using 1870 census statistics, I'm curious to learn what was the percentage of increased Black population
in the Northern states as compared to 1860 ?


--Gregory C. White



Very true, Illinois and other [republican] states had laws that blacks could not enter. During the war he north promised them land and homes 40 acres and a mule. I am unsure of how many left after the war but I am sure the census data is available. Maybe take a look at one border state for a few decades. But I also think blacks during reconstruction were given power over former confederate whites [who could not vote] and given money etc so i am unsure how many would have moved.

---------------
“The CSA congress can have no such power over states officers. The state governments are an essential part of the political system, upon the separate and independent sovereignty of the states the foundation of the confederacy”
-1864 Virginia supremeCourt

1stvermont
Vermont, VT, USA
Posts: 67
Re: Look Away!!! Politically Incorrect Thread on Slavery
Posted on: 8/23/2017 6:06:40 AM

Quote:
In the earlier 1970s, I studied Modern History at the University of Oxford.

I chose, for my special subject , Slavery and Secession and the Crisis of the Union, 1850-62.

At that very time there was a heated debate about the historiography and the prevailing view of slavery. Time on the Cross was required reading, , along with myriad other texts and commentaries. Above all, I was required to study the Congressional Globe and use the speeches of the day as a primal source.

One of the authors of Time on the Cross - I forget whether it was Fogel or Engelman ( sp?) - delivered a lecture at which I was present. His speech was repudiated by another American Professor who was also present : his name was Wade ( IIRC) ; he had been advisor to the Democratic nominee and Presidential candidate Humphreys. This is all from memory, so forgive mistakes in name and spelling. I attended Wade's tutorials.

This was all before the era of Political Correctness, although its beginnings could be discerned.

I do not believe that my counterparts today are afforded the same chance to study in such a candid and full on manner .

What you post, 1stvermont, restores my confidence in the excercise of properly countenancing what needs to be addressed.

Regards, Phil
--Phil andrade


well of course i cannot answer for Fogel and some of the criticism was accepted by them as legit. This is also why I was sure to read the updated without consent or contract

https://www.amazon.com/Without-Consent-Contract-American-Paperback/dp/0393312194

But I have also read at least some of the criticism of the first book, and i will say they were minor compared to the entire books content and some were invalid in my opinion or differences of opinion not fact.


As a admirer and reader of J.R.R Tolkien and C.S Lewis, I must say they sure thought PC was in england soon after ww2. But i cant comment on the views of slavery in england, only america.


---------------
“The CSA congress can have no such power over states officers. The state governments are an essential part of the political system, upon the separate and independent sovereignty of the states the foundation of the confederacy”
-1864 Virginia supremeCourt

1stvermont
Vermont, VT, USA
Posts: 67
Re: Look Away!!! Politically Incorrect Thread on Slavery
Posted on: 8/23/2017 6:13:11 AM

Quote:
One of the most chilling indictments of the Peculiar Institution was cited by the narrator of that Ken Burns TV documentary series on the Civil War that was broadcast about twenty five years ago.

In a couple of lines the thing was addressed, and forgive error in recitation :

A Mississippi flatboatman summed it up more succinctly.... I''d rather be dead he said than be a nigger on one of those big plantations

Regards, Phil
--Phil andrade


I love Ken Burns documentary it really is still by far the best civil war documentary ever made. Between that and school is where my main understanding of slavery came from. So I was surprised when I read from original sources. That quote is indeed valid and an original source from what i remember. I never claimed all of slavery was equal.


from my op

"We all know of the terrible things that can happen when one person [a sinner] has authority over another [see the totalitarian governments of last century], slavery is no different. Awful things happened during slavery. However such cases were rare and often protected against by laws. The family unit to me is a good thing, yet it can also be abused such as a father murders a son, a wife murders her husband, daughter, or son, etc. That does not make the family wrong, but wrong in the way it was used. It is the same with police; their job and purpose is good, but in fallen world, there will always be abuse. I am not saying that slavery was good, but looking at only the worst cases and to then claim that all of slavery was so evil is deceitful. The real truth of slavery, while not “good” or a wanted circumstance, is far from what is generally known or believed."
---------------
“The CSA congress can have no such power over states officers. The state governments are an essential part of the political system, upon the separate and independent sovereignty of the states the foundation of the confederacy”
-1864 Virginia supremeCourt

Lightning
Glasgow, UK
Posts: 442
Re: Look Away!!! Politically Incorrect Thread on Slavery
Posted on: 8/23/2017 6:48:26 AM
1stvermont,

I'm not blaming solely the US (and the Confederacy) alone for having slaves; slavery was legal in the overseas British territories and colonies until 1833. Other countries had slavery before the US, some had it after it was abolished in US territories in 1865. The point is that there is no defending an institution that makes human beings the property of other human beings and to argue about 'family units' and corrupt police is the definition of a strawman argument. I believe the purpose of your post is essentially to shine a better light on what was a horrific state of affairs and I cannot condone it.

Have a look at [Read More] and sift through the dozens of first hand accounts of slaves who utterly detested the notion that slavery was in any way benevolent. If the ex-slaves did look back as being in bondage as better times, it's because of the reprehensible treatment they received after emancipation. Freedom should have been a beautiful thing; instead they were shunned by the Federal government (who chose an easier ride from the readmitted South over natural justice) and were oppressed by the Southern state authorities well into the 1960s.

Colin

---------------
"There is no course open to us but to fight it out. Every position must be held to the last man: there must be no retirement. With our backs to the wall and believing in the justice of our cause, each one of us must fight to the end."

1stvermont
Vermont, VT, USA
Posts: 67
Re: Look Away!!! Politically Incorrect Thread on Slavery
Posted on: 8/23/2017 7:07:32 AM

Quote:
1stvermont,

I'm not blaming solely the US (and the Confederacy) alone for having slaves; slavery was legal in the overseas British territories and colonies until 1833. Other countries had slavery before the US, some had it after it was abolished in US territories in 1865. The point is that there is no defending an institution that makes human beings the property of other human beings and to argue about 'family units' and corrupt police is the definition of a strawman argument. I believe the purpose of your post is essentially to shine a better light on what was a horrific state of affairs and I cannot condone it.

Have a look at [Read More] and sift through the dozens of first hand accounts of slaves who utterly detested the notion that slavery was in any way benevolent. If the ex-slaves did look back as being in bondage as better times, it's because of the reprehensible treatment they received after emancipation. Freedom should have been a beautiful thing; instead they were shunned by the Federal government (who chose an easier ride from the readmitted South over natural justice) and were oppressed by the Southern state authorities well into the 1960s.

Colin


--Lightning


Thanks Colin. I was looking to try and put it in perspective rather than justify it, sorry if it came off wrong. I was just saying that if someone is owned by another, that does not conclude a loving caring relationship cant take place. Also that a difference should be made by horrible acts committed, and the system itself. A family, as i used as an example, is generally seen as a good thing, yet at times horrible things happen within a family, that does not make the family a bad system. Of course i also am not saying slavery is a good system,please dont misunderstand.


Yes its a great source for slavery is it not. You will notice i use it often in my op. I have read absolutely horrible things in those accounts that can only be described as cruel, unjust, torture by a mad man. However those were very rare compared to the majority.


I still think you are missing what I have said. I never said all of slavery was one way, i am saying the normal vast evil view of slavery was the small, selected, minority evils and does not give an accurate view of slavery as a whole.





---------------
“The CSA congress can have no such power over states officers. The state governments are an essential part of the political system, upon the separate and independent sovereignty of the states the foundation of the confederacy”
-1864 Virginia supremeCourt

Phil andrade
London, UK
Posts: 2479
Re: Look Away!!! Politically Incorrect Thread on Slavery
Posted on: 8/23/2017 8:01:23 AM
..an accurate view of slavery as a whole.

Is such a thing attainable ?

This was a massive institution encompassing several millions of people over an enormous area, with huge variations and , I daresay, commensurate complexities.

The South.....what was The South ? There was a Frontier South, an Old South, a Deep South, and a host of other attributes....the experience of slavery must have differed accordingly.

But then, I suppose, if you have to identify one single feature that defined " The South " it would have to be the institution of black slavery.

Regards, Phil
---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

1stvermont
Vermont, VT, USA
Posts: 67
Re: Look Away!!! Politically Incorrect Thread on Slavery
Posted on: 8/23/2017 10:25:33 AM

Quote:
..an accurate view of slavery as a whole.

Is such a thing attainable ?

This was a massive institution encompassing several millions of people over an enormous area, with huge variations and , I daresay, commensurate complexities.

The South.....what was The South ? There was a Frontier South, an Old South, a Deep South, and a host of other attributes....the experience of slavery must have differed accordingly.

But then, I suppose, if you have to identify one single feature that defined " The South " it would have to be the institution of black slavery.

Regards, Phil
--Phil andrade


Very good. I would also agree to try and categorize such a vast and varied system into a single post would be impossible. However I dont pretend to say my op represents the entirety of slavery [other than perhaps statistics giving a general view] but the opposite side of slavery not given. Usually in America only the very worst of slavery is given [often from works of fiction] and that is presented as the whole of the system. So I simply try to give the counter so people can balance out the sides and hopefully come to a historically accurate understanding of slavery.


By the south I meant the former confederate states. The term is usually used in reference to slave states in 1860 union or confederate.

---------------
“The CSA congress can have no such power over states officers. The state governments are an essential part of the political system, upon the separate and independent sovereignty of the states the foundation of the confederacy”
-1864 Virginia supremeCourt

OpanaPointer
St. Louis, MO, USA
Posts: 466
Re: Look Away!!! Politically Incorrect Thread on Slavery
Posted on: 8/23/2017 10:38:38 AM
Your depiction is a bit over-balanced.

1stvermont
Vermont, VT, USA
Posts: 67
Re: Look Away!!! Politically Incorrect Thread on Slavery
Posted on: 8/23/2017 11:21:32 AM

Quote:
Your depiction is a bit over-balanced.
--OpanaPointer



I would say the same of the typical depiction.
---------------
“The CSA congress can have no such power over states officers. The state governments are an essential part of the political system, upon the separate and independent sovereignty of the states the foundation of the confederacy”
-1864 Virginia supremeCourt

OpanaPointer
St. Louis, MO, USA
Posts: 466
Re: Look Away!!! Politically Incorrect Thread on Slavery
Posted on: 8/23/2017 12:53:58 PM

Quote:

Quote:
Your depiction is a bit over-balanced.
--OpanaPointer



I would say the same of the typical depiction.
--1stvermont

Yep, but you're scolding Big Education for doing what you're doing. You both fail.

Gregory C. White
Canton, GA, USA
Posts: 172
Re: Look Away!!! Politically Incorrect Thread on Slavery
Posted on: 8/23/2017 5:11:57 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:
Your depiction is a bit over-balanced.
--OpanaPointer



I would say the same of the typical depiction.
--1stvermont

Yep, but you're scolding Big Education for doing what you're doing. You both fail.
--OpanaPointer


Unfortunately, most people get their perspectives of history from "Big Education",
which is probably why so many in American society are blissfully ignorant of our
history. I believe it is intentional.
---------------
"I do not believe that any man can adequately appreciate the world of to-day unless he has some knowledge of...[and] some feeling for...the history of the world of the past." Theodore Roosevelt

OpanaPointer
St. Louis, MO, USA
Posts: 466
Re: Look Away!!! Politically Incorrect Thread on Slavery
Posted on: 8/23/2017 5:49:55 PM
Big Education does better than Patriot University. Where did you get your degree?

1stvermont
Vermont, VT, USA
Posts: 67
Re: Look Away!!! Politically Incorrect Thread on Slavery
Posted on: 8/23/2017 7:31:32 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:
Your depiction is a bit over-balanced.
--OpanaPointer



I would say the same of the typical depiction.
--1stvermont

Yep, but you're scolding Big Education for doing what you're doing. You both fail.
--OpanaPointer



I would disagree from my post. Because i admit in my op evils happened. I admit not all slaves were treated well, i admit i am presenting the historical information otherwise not told assuming the standard view is known by the reader. SO i simply give the other side. Plus much of my op is a general not universal claim, where others make a universal claim of evil and slavery.
---------------
“The CSA congress can have no such power over states officers. The state governments are an essential part of the political system, upon the separate and independent sovereignty of the states the foundation of the confederacy”
-1864 Virginia supremeCourt

1stvermont
Vermont, VT, USA
Posts: 67
Re: Look Away!!! Politically Incorrect Thread on Slavery
Posted on: 8/23/2017 7:33:43 PM

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:

Quote:
Your depiction is a bit over-balanced.
--OpanaPointer



I would say the same of the typical depiction.
--1stvermont

Yep, but you're scolding Big Education for doing what you're doing. You both fail.
--OpanaPointer


Unfortunately, most people get their perspectives of history from "Big Education",
which is probably why so many in American society are blissfully ignorant of our
history. I believe it is intentional.
--Gregory C. White



I would also say it is intentional. That would be a separate topic.

"The first step in liquidating a people is to erase its memory. Destroy its books, its history. Then have somebody write new books, manufacture a new culture, invent a new history"
-Milan Hubl, Czek communist
---------------
“The CSA congress can have no such power over states officers. The state governments are an essential part of the political system, upon the separate and independent sovereignty of the states the foundation of the confederacy”
-1864 Virginia supremeCourt

OpanaPointer
St. Louis, MO, USA
Posts: 466
Re: Look Away!!! Politically Incorrect Thread on Slavery
Posted on: 8/23/2017 7:59:59 PM
The point I was trying to make was that being extremist in one direction is not a counter to extremism in the other direction. A balance, rational view of the events is the best way to work on the topic.

And yes, I know some people aren't interested in that. There will always be such.

jthlmnn
Milwaukee, WI, USA
Posts: 164
Re: Look Away!!! Politically Incorrect Thread on Slavery
Posted on: 8/24/2017 5:15:53 PM
1st Vermont:

It appears that you rely heavily on the slave narratives collected by the WPA in the 1930s. While they do have their usefulness, their limitations must also be recognized, and they must, like any other source, be treated with appropriate caution.

Rather than do a lot of cutting and pasting, I will link to an article in Slate that summarizes and cites some of the critiques and cautions which have been addressed by serious scholars. I suggest that anyone who is truly interested in the topic use the article as only a starting point, and read the works cited in forming their own conclusions. [Read More]

Yours,

JohnT

Edit to add: BTW- the full title of Mr. Fogel's book, cited above, is Without Consent or Contract: The Rise and Fall of American Slavery (New York: W. W. Norton, 1989).

1stvermont
Vermont, VT, USA
Posts: 67
Re: Look Away!!! Politically Incorrect Thread on Slavery
Posted on: 8/24/2017 7:04:25 PM

Quote:
The point I was trying to make was that being extremist in one direction is not a counter to extremism in the other direction. A balance, rational view of the events is the best way to work on the topic.

And yes, I know some people aren't interested in that. There will always be such.
--OpanaPointer



i agree. However for the reasons i gave mine imo is far more balanced.
---------------
“The CSA congress can have no such power over states officers. The state governments are an essential part of the political system, upon the separate and independent sovereignty of the states the foundation of the confederacy”
-1864 Virginia supremeCourt

OpanaPointer
St. Louis, MO, USA
Posts: 466
Re: Look Away!!! Politically Incorrect Thread on Slavery
Posted on: 8/24/2017 8:07:23 PM
In your opinion, sure, but you only looked at one side of the issue. You are clearly biased, and that makes for bad history. By "biased" I mean you have a point of view that you wish to see accepted by the general public. That's backwards when it comes to history.

1stvermont
Vermont, VT, USA
Posts: 67
Re: Look Away!!! Politically Incorrect Thread on Slavery
Posted on: 8/24/2017 8:22:00 PM

Quote:
1st Vermont:

It appears that you rely heavily on the slave narratives collected by the WPA in the 1930s. While they do have their usefulness, their limitations must also be recognized, and they must, like any other source, be treated with appropriate caution.

Rather than do a lot of cutting and pasting, I will link to an article in Slate that summarizes and cites some of the critiques and cautions which have been addressed by serious scholars. I suggest that anyone who is truly interested in the topic use the article as only a starting point, and read the works cited in forming their own conclusions. [Read More]

Yours,

JohnT

Edit to add: BTW- the full title of Mr. Fogel's book, cited above, is Without Consent or Contract: The Rise and Fall of American Slavery (New York: W. W. Norton, 1989).
--jthlmnn



Thanks for the link and i was waiting for this to come up. Some see racism anywhere just for your info. So the argument goes since many of the interviewers were white [only 27% were black], blacks were scared to tell them about the evils of slavery. This in my mind says more about the bias assumptions of the modern reader rather than historical documents. Some people because they cannot believe slavery was what slaves themselves said it was, must make excuses and reinterpret the historical data to protect their worldview. This is 1960s civil rights reinterpretation of historical data. The new revisionism came decades after the actual interviews were done, during the civil rights era.


To offer evidence for their claim 27% of the interviewers were African American, and of those compared to the white interviewers. They gave responses that were less favorable of food consumption and “26% of those responding to white interviewers expressed unfavorable attitudes toward their former masters compared to 39% percent of those who responded to black interviewers.” This is said to show that some former slaves described slavery in a more positive light.


However every single state has dozens upon dozens of accounts of evil done by masters and brutal treatments, poor food etc as those things did happen, slaves had no problem letting that be known when they were interviewed by a white or black. Robert Fogel in his book “without Consent or Contract the Rise and Fall of American Slavery” found the size of the farm and major crop produced, had more to do with responses on food consumption rather than the race of the interviewer, the difference by race was insignificant. In fact small farm responses to white interviewers gave a higher % bad food replies. The generally positive responses on food consumption matched what other researchers found on the slaves diet, they were generally well fed. Even those who suggested race may have effected responses stated

“Herman R. Lantz found no evidence that the race of the interviewer affected the overall reporting of family relationships. Therefore, depending upon how unobtrusive or subtle the measures used by the researcher, how much the race of the interviewer affected responses is an open question.”

I dont buy the self censorship personally. What good or bad would have come from telling the experiences of slavery long ago? would it end segregation if they were positive? would it prolong it if they told negative reports to a single reporter from a university? I think the claim is refuted in that the responses to blacks 27% of interviewers, were overall same as to white interviewers. I think it is again refuted if one reads the narratives by the fact vast evils are told and described with no consequence to the individuals to speak of. I think it again refuted in that the interviewers, not the slaves were the ones it seems looking for dirt. if anything encouraging it.

Segregation is a bad law but I think it false to make sweeping generalizations about society in that day. Can anyone point to one instance were the Klan went after a slave interviewed who shared terrible experiences while in slavery? Likely they had no idea what was going on. these were conducted by universities and the federal government not the KKK. That is why historians do not reject these and neither should we. The best evidence is again to read them for yourself.


Reasons to Think They are Bias and give a More Negative View Than Reality

-Commentators questions seem bias toward finding the bad in slavery. For an example read Virginia where it is not just the slave responses recorded. Often you will read in the narratives a slave say I am “not going to say anything bad about master” like the questioner was seeking for faults in the master.
-The interviews were done after reconstruction and when the black/white races where most divided.
-Many slaves where young when they were still in slavery so often they would remember the times during the war or decade before as their only remembrance. A time that was harsh for masters and slaves. Low on food, low on money and overall hard times giving a more negative view.
- Harsh laws against slaves were enacted in the decades before the war as a response to abolitionist inciting revolts. this would lead to a more negative view of slavery.
- Most interviews were done in the cotton states and not in the boarder states, it is commonly held slavery was worst in the cotton states.
---------------
“The CSA congress can have no such power over states officers. The state governments are an essential part of the political system, upon the separate and independent sovereignty of the states the foundation of the confederacy”
-1864 Virginia supremeCourt

1stvermont
Vermont, VT, USA
Posts: 67
Re: Look Away!!! Politically Incorrect Thread on Slavery
Posted on: 8/24/2017 8:26:35 PM

Quote:
In your opinion, sure, but you only looked at one side of the issue. You are clearly biased, and that makes for bad history. By "biased" I mean you have a point of view that you wish to see accepted by the general public. That's backwards when it comes to history.
--OpanaPointer



Not sure where you are getting that. But I think we should try and direct our talk back to historical issues related to slavery.


from my post 2

"I am saying that slavery as commonly assumed is not the slavery of the majority in the American South. This modern vast evil view of slavery started post ww2...Telling only part of the history of the south is misleading, and that is what we have a lot of today. Many people picture slavery as a white man with whip in hand, ready to use on any black slave; and slaves working in the field, mistreated and abused. While it is true that horrible things happened during slavery and in the Confederacy, these were the exception, not the rule. I am also making the assumption that you all know the terrible things that did occur during slavery, such as rape, murder, mistreatment, etc. These offenses can happen whenever one sinful human being [we all are sinful] has power over another [Just look at the totalitarian governments of last century]. My hope here is to fill in the historical facts you may be missing, to give a bigger and more accurate picture of slavery in the south."



---------------
“The CSA congress can have no such power over states officers. The state governments are an essential part of the political system, upon the separate and independent sovereignty of the states the foundation of the confederacy”
-1864 Virginia supremeCourt

OpanaPointer
St. Louis, MO, USA
Posts: 466
Re: Look Away!!! Politically Incorrect Thread on Slavery
Posted on: 8/24/2017 8:26:57 PM
"Bias Toward a Positive View of Slavery?

Some people because they cannot believe slavery was what slaves themselves said it was, must make excuses and reinterpret the historical data to protect their worldview. This is 1960s civil rights reinterpretation of historical data. The new revisionism came decades after the actual interviews were done, during the civil rights era. "

And that's your bias. Unfortunately I don't see you rising about it.

1stvermont
Vermont, VT, USA
Posts: 67
Re: Look Away!!! Politically Incorrect Thread on Slavery
Posted on: 8/24/2017 8:30:29 PM
I just wanted to give the reasons why the slave narratives are a great source. No historian would suggest they are not a first hand account of slavery from slaves themselves, only some modern pc try to say they might be tainted.


Born in Slavery: Slave Narratives from the Federal Writers' Project, 1936-1938
http://memory.loc.gov/ammem/snhtml/mesnbibVolumes1.html

"The result of these efforts was the Slave Narrative Collection, a group of autobiographical accounts of former slaves that today stands as one of the most enduring and noteworthy achievements of the WPA. Compiled in seventeen states during the years 1936-38, the collection consists of more than two thousand interviews with former slaves, most of them first-person accounts of slave life and the respondents' own reactions to bondage. The interviews afforded aged ex-slaves an unparalleled opportunity to give their personal accounts of life under the "peculiar institution," to describe in their own words what it felt like to be a slave in the United States..The Slave Narrative Collection provides a unique and virtually unsurpassed collective portrait of a historical population... Moreover, the size of the slave units on which respondents reported living varied considerably, from plantations with over a thousand slaves to situations in which the informant was his or her owner's only slave. The treatment these individuals reported ran the gamut from the most harsh, impersonal, and exploitative to work and living conditions and environments that were intimate and benevolent..... all the major categories of the slave population appear to be well represented in the collection....the WPA narratives thus constitute an illuminating and invaluable source of dataabout antebellum and post-Emancipation Southern life, the institution of slavery, and, most important, the reactions and perspectives of those who had been enslaved.


“An important source of information about slave experiences”
-Robert Fogel The Rise and Fall of American Slavery

"Tisn't he who has stood and looked on, that can tell you what slavery is--'tis he who has endured."
-John Little former slave


They are first hand historical documents of over 2,200 interviews by 300 interviewees in 17 states a large collection of slavery from slaves themselves. They were done with no bias or agenda by the federal government. They also match dozens of accounts from historians, union soldiers, abolitionist, Europeans, southerners and first hand observers wrote on what slavery was like. They “fit” other sources very well.
---------------
“The CSA congress can have no such power over states officers. The state governments are an essential part of the political system, upon the separate and independent sovereignty of the states the foundation of the confederacy”
-1864 Virginia supremeCourt

1stvermont
Vermont, VT, USA
Posts: 67
Re: Look Away!!! Politically Incorrect Thread on Slavery
Posted on: 8/24/2017 8:34:17 PM

Quote:
"Bias Toward a Positive View of Slavery?

Some people because they cannot believe slavery was what slaves themselves said it was, must make excuses and reinterpret the historical data to protect their worldview. This is 1960s civil rights reinterpretation of historical data. The new revisionism came decades after the actual interviews were done, during the civil rights era. "

And that's your bias. Unfortunately I don't see you rising about it.
--OpanaPointer


"Tisn't he who has stood and looked on, that can tell you what slavery is--'tis he who has endured."
-John Little former slave

Yes i am bias as to take slaves words and remembrances of slavery from historical documents, as slaves words and remembrances of slavery from historical documents. Others hold a bias as to reject those slaves, and crate their own modern pc version. This thread I hope is on a historical understanding of slavery, not a pc understanding.
---------------
“The CSA congress can have no such power over states officers. The state governments are an essential part of the political system, upon the separate and independent sovereignty of the states the foundation of the confederacy”
-1864 Virginia supremeCourt

OpanaPointer
St. Louis, MO, USA
Posts: 466
Re: Look Away!!! Politically Incorrect Thread on Slavery
Posted on: 8/24/2017 8:41:59 PM
Must "PC" be trotted out whenever you're in doubt? I'm simply saying you could use a good historiography class if you want to claim you're doing history.

Phil andrade
London, UK
Posts: 2479
Re: Look Away!!! Politically Incorrect Thread on Slavery
Posted on: 8/25/2017 2:18:10 AM
Two media features come to my mind which bear on this discussion:

On the big screen that superb production TWELVE YEARS A SLAVE ,directed by a black British man....I think the depiction is nuanced, with allusion to some of the things that 1stvermont has cited.

In literature, a new book THE HUNGRY EMPIRE : How Britain's Quest for Food Shaped the Modern World, by Lizzie Collingham.

She writes convincingly about the rice plantations of eighteenth century South Carolina, and how African slaves did so much to develop cuisine and culture in the New World.

Regards, Phil
---------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"

"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."

Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes

jthlmnn
Milwaukee, WI, USA
Posts: 164
Re: Look Away!!! Politically Incorrect Thread on Slavery
Posted on: 8/29/2017 1:01:24 PM

Quote:
1stvermont-
I dont buy the self censorship personally. What good or bad would have come from telling the experiences of slavery long ago? would it end segregation if they were positive? would it prolong it if they told negative reports to a single reporter from a university? I think the claim is refuted in that the responses to blacks 27% of interviewers, were overall same as to white interviewers. I think it is again refuted if one reads the narratives by the fact vast evils are told and described with no consequence to the individuals to speak of. I think it again refuted in that the interviewers, not the slaves were the ones it seems looking for dirt. if anything encouraging it.

Segregation is a bad law but I think it false to make sweeping generalizations about society in that day. Can anyone point to one instance were the Klan went after a slave interviewed who shared terrible experiences while in slavery? Likely they had no idea what was going on. these were conducted by universities and the federal government not the KKK. That is why historians do not reject these and neither should we. The best evidence is again to read them for yourself.


I would posit that your grasp of the context in which the interviews were conducted is quite naive. Those interviewed were old, very old. They did not attain their longevity, surviving slavery itself, two iterations of the Klan, the entrenchment of Jim Crow laws, and a couple thousand lynchings, by being reckless in speech or conduct. The white people ruled with an iron fist, and blacks crossed them at their own peril.

As for the Klan going after anybody, do you understand how they operated? They were (and still are) a terrorist organization. Fear is their primary weapon. Enough blacks had been painfully, even fatally, been put back in their place if their conduct had been deemed "uppity" or "ungrateful" for that message to take hold. The threat was always present, even without direct Klan involvement.

The interviewers themselves may have had the best of intentions, but whether white or black, they were mostly local residents, with local friends, and local relatives. They talk to other people, and the former slave has no control over who hears the story and no assurance that their identity will be guarded. The impartiality of some interviewers could definitely be called into question, as they were members of the United Daughters of the Confederacy. The UDC was (and still is) one of the biggest purveyors and guardians "lost cause" mythology. A significant part of that mythology was/is "the happy slave" narrative.

That some of those former slaves told the interviewers what they figured was the desired response is obvious. I'll use the one that jumped out at me right away as an example.

Quote:
“Cotton pickin was big fun too, and when dey got through pickin de cotton dey et and drank and danced till dey could dance no more”
-Rachael Adams Georgia Slave Narratives


Over the years, I have met many people who sharecropped and hand picked cotton down south, and then moved north (most of them during and after WW II). Whether black or white, none of them ever described it as anything even resembling "fun". And these are people who could rest when they wanted/needed to, and did not face immediate physical punishment for not meeting a quota or damaging a plant. Anyone who describes cotton picking as "fun" has either never done it, or is yanking somebody's chain.

As with any testimony, a grain of salt is necessary when evaluating the veracity of it. When the testimony is given (during the event, immediately after, long after) is an important consideration. Who is the statement being given to is another. Is it someone with whom the testifier feels comfortable and safe? Does the testifier trust the interviewer? Is it someone from whom the testifier wants something? Does the testifier have any motive(s) for coloring their statements?

As I stated earlier, The Slave Narratives are valuable and useful, but, like any other evidence, they also have their limitations. Ignoring those limitations makes for inaccurate, and unreliable conclusions, and does a disservice to the study of history.

JohnT


OpanaPointer
St. Louis, MO, USA
Posts: 466
Re: Look Away!!! Politically Incorrect Thread on Slavery
Posted on: 8/29/2017 1:31:02 PM
My mother worked in the cotton fields until noon and I was born at 5:36 PM. She needed the time because they were behind on "chopping cotton". It was a Friday and the boss was generous and allowed her Saturday off.

As for the Narratives, I wonder about the ones that weren't included.

1stvermont
Vermont, VT, USA
Posts: 67
Re: Look Away!!! Politically Incorrect Thread on Slavery
Posted on: 8/29/2017 8:05:59 PM
I would posit that your grasp of the context in which the interviews were conducted is quite naive. Those interviewed were old, very old. They did not attain their longevity, surviving slavery itself, two iterations of the Klan, the entrenchment of Jim Crow laws, and a couple thousand lynchings, by being reckless in speech or conduct. The white people ruled with an iron fist, and blacks crossed them at their own peril.


As for the Klan going after anybody, do you understand how they operated? They were (and still are) a terrorist organization. Fear is their primary weapon. Enough blacks had been painfully, even fatally, been put back in their place if their conduct had been deemed "uppity" or "ungrateful" for that message to take hold. The threat was always present, even without direct Klan involvement.

The interviewers themselves may have had the best of intentions, but whether white or black, they were mostly local residents, with local friends, and local relatives. They talk to other people, and the former slave has no control over who hears the story and no assurance that their identity will be guarded. The impartiality of some interviewers could definitely be called into question, as they were members of the United Daughters of the Confederacy. The UDC was (and still is) one of the biggest purveyors and guardians "lost cause" mythology. A significant part of that mythology was/is "the happy slave" narrative.

That some of those former slaves told the interviewers what they figured was the desired response is obvious. I'll use the one that jumped out at me right away as an example.

Quote:
“Cotton pickin was big fun too, and when dey got through pickin de cotton dey et and drank and danced till dey could dance no more”
-Rachael Adams Georgia Slave Narratives

Over the years, I have met many people who sharecropped and hand picked cotton down south, and then moved north (most of them during and after WW II). Whether black or white, none of them ever described it as anything even resembling "fun". And these are people who could rest when they wanted/needed to, and did not face immediate physical punishment for not meeting a quota or damaging a plant. Anyone who describes cotton picking as "fun" has either never done it, or is yanking somebody's chain.

As with any testimony, a grain of salt is necessary when evaluating the veracity of it. When the testimony is given (during the event, immediately after, long after) is an important consideration. Who is the statement being given to is another. Is it someone with whom the testifier feels comfortable and safe? Does the testifier trust the interviewer? Is it someone from whom the testifier wants something? Does the testifier have any motive(s) for coloring their statements?

As I stated earlier, The Slave Narratives are valuable and useful, but, like any other evidence, they also have their limitations. Ignoring those limitations makes for inaccurate, and unreliable conclusions, and does a disservice to the study of history.

JohnT


--jthlmnn




Support please. Support the "klan" in anyway effected interviews done or these people were harassed. As a refutation i offer the interviews themselves. Read them. You live a life of fear my friend, fear that is not there. The Klan in two decades in the 1950's and 60's civil right era of Klan violence, killed 15 people. But once more, no evidence these were done by the klan, they were often private interviews done at the home of the former slaves.



and I have talked with people who have picked cotton and hated it, but who worked with illegal immigrants who enjoyed it, who were singing joking etc while working. Dont ever think because one person had a certain experiences, that must be all did at all times. I hate the job I have, there are some who actually enjoy it.


If you can support that your claims effected them, than ok I can agree. To assume so, would say more of our modern thought than dealing with a historical document.

---------------
“The CSA congress can have no such power over states officers. The state governments are an essential part of the political system, upon the separate and independent sovereignty of the states the foundation of the confederacy”
-1864 Virginia supremeCourt

1stvermont
Vermont, VT, USA
Posts: 67
Re: Look Away!!! Politically Incorrect Thread on Slavery
Posted on: 8/30/2017 6:11:27 PM
JohnT

i have been thinking more on what you have said and if you are just suggesting caution with them, i see no issues and you could rightly be correct. I just think our modern ideas of the past influence what we are willing to learn from history to much. Maybe i overacted to that, without really considering it as well as i should have. But i want to say many historians accept works like the abolitionist slave autobiographies as factual yet they have many reasons to cause doubt. When I read a narrative and it talks of evil or torture in it i dont assume the interviewer was black or wanted to make slavery look worse. I assume those events happened because that is what the experiences said happened. Same when they tell of loving relationships with their masters. I also dont think if the interviewer wanted slavery in a positive light means they can make it happen. there are just a few examples of minor editing done [maybe 3] and they dont effect content.it would also be an Appeal to motive.


But i said earlier many reasons why i though the opposite was true, it seems they were looking for dirt against the former masters and slavery more than not. also slaves had no issues sharing the worst of slavery, if you read the narratives i think you will find them as a up close direct reference for the life of a slave.
---------------
“The CSA congress can have no such power over states officers. The state governments are an essential part of the political system, upon the separate and independent sovereignty of the states the foundation of the confederacy”
-1864 Virginia supremeCourt

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
Posts: 5313
Re: Look Away!!! Politically Incorrect Thread on Slavery
Posted on: 8/30/2017 7:20:58 PM
1stVermont, I struggle to understand your point of view or what exactly you are trying to prove.

Accepting that slavery is morally repugnant, do you also accept that slaves were bought and sold, were beaten by overseers, or were raped?

I will be more direct. Based upon your research, are you convinced that slaves were treated quite well and were content to be in a condition of slavery?

What was the purpose of the slave codes?

George

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
Posts: 5313
Re: Look Away!!! Politically Incorrect Thread on Slavery
Posted on: 8/30/2017 7:40:24 PM
From the US Library of Congress, Born in Slavery: Slave Narratives from the Federal Writers' Project, 1936 to 1938

[Read More]

[Read More]

Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan, MI, USA
Posts: 2772
Re: Look Away!!! Politically Incorrect Thread on Slavery
Posted on: 8/30/2017 9:39:41 PM

Quote:
1stVermont, I struggle to understand your point of view or what exactly you are trying to prove.

Accepting that slavery is morally repugnant, do you also accept that slaves were bought and sold, were beaten by overseers, or were raped?

I will be more direct. Based upon your research, are you convinced that slaves were treated quite well and were content to be in a condition of slavery?

What was the purpose of the slave codes?

George
--George




George,

I think you make a good point here!

Slavery can not be painted in a positive light,

it's simply wrong!
MD
---------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

1stvermont
Vermont, VT, USA
Posts: 67
Re: Look Away!!! Politically Incorrect Thread on Slavery
Posted on: 8/31/2017 7:35:19 PM

Quote:
1stVermont, I struggle to understand your point of view or what exactly you are trying to prove.

Accepting that slavery is morally repugnant, do you also accept that slaves were bought and sold, were beaten by overseers, or were raped?

I will be more direct. Based upon your research, are you convinced that slaves were treated quite well and were content to be in a condition of slavery?

What was the purpose of the slave codes?

George
--George




Nothing is used in modern politics more than slavery to divide and conquer “we the people” to set us up against each other. I think a historical understanding can unite us and see how even in bad conditions, loving relationships were had and we share a common history that does not need to cause division today. As a Christian I do not think slavery is a good or wanted practice. I also see the South as moving away from many of our founder’s view of slavery. For example, on March, 21 1861 Confederate Vice President Alexander Stevens said:

“The prevailing ideas entertained by him [Thomas Jefferson] and most of the leading statesmen at the time of the formation of the old Constitution were that the enslavement of the African was in violation of the laws of nature – that it was wrong in principle – socially, morally, and politically. It was an evil they knew not well how to deal with, but the general opinion of the men of that day was that somehow or other, in the order of Providence, the institution would be evanescent [temporary] and pass away.”

I see slavery as inconsistent with the beliefs and values of many of the freedom and liberty loving founders of the republic of this nation. These founders overwhelmingly wanted to outlaw slavery.


"Slavery is a moral evil in any society...more so to the white than to the black."
-Robert E Lee 1856

I am saying that slavery as commonly assumed is not the slavery of the majority in the American South. This modern vast evil view of slavery started post ww2. I will defend the South and slavery; not to say slavery was good, but to tell the side of slavery and of the Confederacy that most would otherwise not hear. Telling only part of the history of the south is misleading, and that is what we have a lot of today. Many people picture slavery as a white man with whip in hand, ready to use on any black slave; and slaves working in the field, mistreated and abused. While it is true that horrible things happened during slavery and in the Confederacy, these were the exception, not the rule. I am also making the assumption that you all know the terrible things that did occur during slavery, such as rape, murder, mistreatment, etc. These offenses can happen whenever one sinful human being [we all are sinful] has power over another [Just look at the totalitarian governments of last century]. My hope here is to fill in the historical facts you may be missing, to give a bigger and more accurate picture of slavery in the south.





the other questions are addressed in my op. I think if you read it [i know its long] you would have better understanding of my position. Yes terrible things happened, not as much as often assumed. terrible things happen within a family unit in america, that does not make the family evil [not saying slavery is not evil] It is impossible to say how slavery was, since it varied so much. I will say slavery is portrayed falsely and in a much more negative light than was historically. see

Break-up of the African family? Slave trade within the South
Laws designed to protect slaves, slave rights, slave punishment, and corporal punishment [whipping]
Master/Slave Relationship


by slave cods do you mean "Slave codes were a set of laws that allowed a slave's master to retrieve their slave from free states without their permission." wikipedia.

I would say the purpose if for slave owners to retrieve their property after than ran away since it is their property. Seems simple. I think you really asking if slavery was so great [i never said it was] why did slaves run away. For that Please see under

The Dog and the Wolf
http://www.bartleby.com/17/1/28.html
-Runaway slaves?
-After the slaves were released, many slaves preferred slavery / Race relations worsen after slaves were freed
and


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“The CSA congress can have no such power over states officers. The state governments are an essential part of the political system, upon the separate and independent sovereignty of the states the foundation of the confederacy”
-1864 Virginia supremeCourt

1stvermont
Vermont, VT, USA
Posts: 67
Re: Look Away!!! Politically Incorrect Thread on Slavery
Posted on: 8/31/2017 7:36:20 PM

Quote:
From the US Library of Congress, Born in Slavery: Slave Narratives from the Federal Writers' Project, 1936 to 1938

[Read More]

[Read More]
--George


not sure what you are trying to show here, this is my first source listed. These are the interviews with former slaves.
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“The CSA congress can have no such power over states officers. The state governments are an essential part of the political system, upon the separate and independent sovereignty of the states the foundation of the confederacy”
-1864 Virginia supremeCourt

1stvermont
Vermont, VT, USA
Posts: 67
Re: Look Away!!! Politically Incorrect Thread on Slavery
Posted on: 9/21/2017 1:44:46 PM
I just finished reading a great book on slavery by Nehemiah Adams who was a pastor in Massachusetts, Harvard graduate, and an abolitionist who fought against the expansion of slavery. He called himself a “lover and freind of the colored race” after traveling through the south for other reasons, he decided to write a book on slavery called Nehemiah Adams a South Side View of Slavery 1854 due to his surprises of what slavery was like compared to what northerners were told and thought it was like. Its a great book that contrast the modern Uncle Toms Cabin understating of slavery [the understanding of Adams in Massachusetts in 1854] with that of observation and how it changed his views though he still wanted slavery abolished. The book is based on his first hand accounts and observations of slavery. He records both what he sees as positives and “revolting” features of slavery he observed. Overall the books certainly fits into my op well. He contrast southern slaves with northern poor and immigrant as being much better off. He says they were generally well treated, happy and taken care of.

A few quotes from his observations


“One thing imdetley surprised me, they were all in good humor”

“I began to laugh with them. It was irresistible. Who could have convinced me, an hour before that slaves could have any other effect upon me than to make me feel sad”

“They could not be slaves. Are they slaves?”

“it conflicted with my notions of slavery”

“Not a word had been said to me about slavery, my eyes taught me that some practical things in the system are wholly different from my anticipations.”

“the slaves, so far as I had seen, were unconscious of any feelings of restraint”

“If the colored people of Savannah Columbia and Richmond are not, as a whole, a happy people, I have never seen any”

“It was a pleasant paradox to find that where the colored people are not free, they have in many ways the most liberty”

“the labor...is no more than is performed by a hired field hand at the north”

“Good and kind treatment of the slaves is the common law”

“In very many places at the south, a larger proportion of the slaves than of the whites has given evidence of being the children of God”


“Four-fifths of the people of his state, one of the oldest slave states, would be entirely free from it [slavery] were it possible”

of uncle toms cabin he said

“it gives a northerner false conceptions of the actual state of things at the south”
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“The CSA congress can have no such power over states officers. The state governments are an essential part of the political system, upon the separate and independent sovereignty of the states the foundation of the confederacy”
-1864 Virginia supremeCourt

George
Centre Hastings, ON, Canada
Posts: 5313
Re: Look Away!!! Politically Incorrect Thread on Slavery
Posted on: 9/21/2017 2:12:57 PM
A whole lot of rationalization 1stVermont. Odd that there are no quotes from Adams that the happy slaves that he witnessed were chattels just like a wagon or a team of horses.

Have you read the Sugar Barons which is a revealing account of the treatment of slaves in the sugar islands that the Brits owned?

Cheers,

George

1stvermont
Vermont, VT, USA
Posts: 67
Re: Look Away!!! Politically Incorrect Thread on Slavery
Posted on: 9/21/2017 2:36:13 PM

Quote:
A whole lot of rationalization 1stVermont. Odd that there are no quotes from Adams that the happy slaves that he witnessed were chattels just like a wagon or a team of horses.

Have you read the Sugar Barons which is a revealing account of the treatment of slaves in the sugar islands that the Brits owned?

Cheers,

George
--George



Thanks for the post. Adams does in fact mention how they are owned in the same was as a chair, and that in fact some masters hold this view. But he also says they are a small minority and looked down upon by southern society and many seek ways to prevent them from acquiring new slaves. He also points out that just because they are "property" does not conclude the human owner views his human slave as a chair. How many take their chairs to church each week? feed them? take car of them? help them etc I would also point out how many chairs have legal protection for them?


I have not read the book, I have read other accounts of slavery in central/south america as very harsh compared with american slavery. But not really my interest.
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“The CSA congress can have no such power over states officers. The state governments are an essential part of the political system, upon the separate and independent sovereignty of the states the foundation of the confederacy”
-1864 Virginia supremeCourt

1stvermont
Vermont, VT, USA
Posts: 67
Re: Look Away!!! Politically Incorrect Thread on Slavery
Posted on: 9/21/2017 2:44:17 PM

Quote:
Two media features come to my mind which bear on this discussion:

On the big screen that superb production TWELVE YEARS A SLAVE ,directed by a black British man....I think the depiction is nuanced, with allusion to some of the things that 1stvermont has cited.



from my op


“During my residence with master ford I had seen only the bright side of slavery, His was no heavy hand crushing us to the earth. He pointed upwards, and with benign and cheering words addressed us as fellow mortals, accountable, like himself, to the maker of us all. I think of him with affection, and had my family been with me, could have borne his gentile servitude without murmuring , all my days...there never was a more kind,noble,candid, christian man than William ford”
-Solomon Northup, Louisiana servant of master Ford
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“The CSA congress can have no such power over states officers. The state governments are an essential part of the political system, upon the separate and independent sovereignty of the states the foundation of the confederacy”
-1864 Virginia supremeCourt