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 (1863) Battle of Gettysburg
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Gregory C. White
Canton GA USA
Posts: 328
Joined: 2004
Licensed Guides Raise Alarm of Major Threat to Gettysburg Monuments
8/6/2020 2:51:44 PM

Monument News
LICENSED GUIDES RAISE ALARM OF MAJOR THREAT TO GETTYSBURG MONUMENTS
GETTYSBURG, Pa. – The Licensed Battlefield Guides at Gettysburg are raising the alarm over a recent vote in the U.S. House of Representatives to have all Confederate monuments, statues and “commemorative placards” removed from Gettysburg National Military Park as well as all other federal parks nationwide.
“We urge the U.S. Senate to strip out this provision that would destroy the unequaled collection of monuments, Union and Confederate, that set Gettysburg apart as a great battlefield park and a top visitor destination,” said Les Fowler, president of the Association of Licensed Battlefield Guides.
Fowler said the legislation in question – HR-7608 – recently passed the full House. It would direct the National Park Service to remove all Confederate monuments, memorials, placards and statues at Gettysburg, Vicksburg, Antietam, Chickamauga, Manassas, Petersburg, Fredericksburg and 18 other battlefields and historic sites within six months. These Civil War battlefields and their monuments and interpretive plaques have been preserved to help Americans and foreign guests visualize and understand the terrible ordeal that forged this nation. The monuments at Gettysburg from both sides allow us to interpret this national struggle for freedom as it continues today.
Gettysburg is the largest Civil War battlefield commemorating the bloodiest battle ever fought in North America. Licensed Battlefield Guides have provided tours of the battlefield since 1915 and today are the nation’s oldest professional guide service, providing interpretation and context for the battlefield and more than 1,300 monuments and markers.
“The monuments representing all of the soldiers who fought here are a critical component of interpreting these sacred grounds,” Fowler said. Veteran battlefield guide Deb Novotny said, “The monuments serve as tools for us to tell the story not only of this battle but of the struggle of our nation to heal itself after the war.”
Decorated combat veteran Elliott Ackerman, a columnist for the New York Times, recently wrote: “An area of our complex past that should be left untouched are battlefields... Blood consecrates a battlefield, and it is never the blood of only one side.”
The provision to remove Confederate monuments and markers was buried deep within a 727-page bill that also funds the State department, Agriculture department and the EPA. Despite the House’s action, there is still an opportunity to save the important story told at these Civil War parks by urging the Senate to remove this provision from the final funding legislation.
“We will do what we can to convince all members of Congress to address and to oppose this removal provision. We encourage all advocates for Gettysburg to join our effort and reach out to their representatives,” Fowler said.


Ralph Siegel
Gettysburg Licensed Battlefield Guide
Mercerville, NJ
609 306-9275
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“Any society which suppresses the heritage of its conquered minorities, prevent their history, and denies them their symbols, has sown the seeds of its destruction.” Sir William Wallace, 1280 A.D.
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 4936
Joined: 2004
Licensed Guides Raise Alarm of Major Threat to Gettysburg Monuments
8/6/2020 3:48:59 PM
This beggars belief.

Regards , Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Larry Purtell
Little Meadows PA USA
Posts: 1147
Joined: 2004
Licensed Guides Raise Alarm of Major Threat to Gettysburg Monuments
8/6/2020 4:07:59 PM
Quote:
This beggars belief.

Regards , Phil

I'm still not convinced this a true story. If it is I see nothing but evil coming from this.

Larry.
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"My goal is to live forever. So far, so good.
Gregory C. White
Canton GA USA
Posts: 328
Joined: 2004
Licensed Guides Raise Alarm of Major Threat to Gettysburg Monuments
8/6/2020 4:22:27 PM
Quote:
Quote:
This beggars belief.

Regards , Phil

I'm still not convinced this a true story. If it is I see nothing bad but evil coming from this.

Larry.

I also saw it about 2 weeks ago on the Emerging Civil War website.

If it is true and such a proposal actually passes at some point down the road,
book burning will be next if a certain narrative isn't presented. We are living
in frightening times that I did not foresee in my lifetime, but 30-40 years
in the future.

Greg
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“Any society which suppresses the heritage of its conquered minorities, prevent their history, and denies them their symbols, has sown the seeds of its destruction.” Sir William Wallace, 1280 A.D.
john hayward
Allenstown NH USA
Posts: 877
Joined: 2004
Licensed Guides Raise Alarm of Major Threat to Gettysburg Monuments
8/6/2020 7:57:07 PM
Gentlemen
Nothing good can come from this. political correctness run amuck
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"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross."
morris crumley
Dunwoody GA USA
Posts: 2930
Joined: 2007
Licensed Guides Raise Alarm of Major Threat to Gettysburg Monuments
8/7/2020 12:37:55 AM
I wish I could say that this is not true. But it doesn`t at all seem far-fetched in the madness that is going on here today!

Respects, Morris
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"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."
Gregory C. White
Canton GA USA
Posts: 328
Joined: 2004
Licensed Guides Raise Alarm of Major Threat to Gettysburg Monuments
8/7/2020 1:28:31 AM
Quote:
I wish I could say that this is not true. But it doesn`t at all seem far-fetched in the madness that is going on here today!

Respects, Morris


I pulled the below link off a congressional website.

Scroll down to section 442

https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/house-bill/7608/text


Greg C. White
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“Any society which suppresses the heritage of its conquered minorities, prevent their history, and denies them their symbols, has sown the seeds of its destruction.” Sir William Wallace, 1280 A.D.
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 4936
Joined: 2004
Licensed Guides Raise Alarm of Major Threat to Gettysburg Monuments
8/7/2020 5:45:41 AM
Reaction of my wife, who was dragged around the battlefield by me, along with our kids, thirty years ago :

“ FFS ! Please tell me you’re joking ! “

Bear in mind this outburst is from a British woman who is not normally profane, and who would know little about Gettysburg.

That being so, what impact is this going to have on your people over there ?

Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
morris crumley
Dunwoody GA USA
Posts: 2930
Joined: 2007
Licensed Guides Raise Alarm of Major Threat to Gettysburg Monuments
8/7/2020 11:19:25 AM
You know, Lincoln got it. He understood. That when the war is won, we must unite and become one nation again.

A host of the descendants of confederates have gone on to earn themselves honors and distinction fighting for this country, from Bella Wood, to Guadalcanal, to Korea and Nam, to Dessert Storm and Shield, and the war over terrorism. And to tell those men that they are not entitled to their heritage, to watch as a form of Taliban tries to destroy our common history....it disgusts me to a level I never thought possible towards people of my own country.

To answer your question Phil, I don`t see how I will ever get over the level of anger I have. What fascinated me about that war, from the time I was a kid was "how is it that one American can so hate another American as to want to face them on the field of battle." I must confess...it is becoming more and more understandable to me every day that goes by.

How does one get over that?

Respects, Morris
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"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 4936
Joined: 2004
Licensed Guides Raise Alarm of Major Threat to Gettysburg Monuments
8/7/2020 11:52:36 AM
Thanks for that heartfelt reply, Morris.

The thing about Gettysburg is that it stands as the ultimate symbol of furious combat in a war that forged a nation out of division. It did not, of course, bring an outcome that protected the welfare of one tenth of the population, who were black.



Were I a southerner, with a great grandfather who advanced with Kershaw, or Barksdale, at Gettysburg, I would be very proud of that provenance. It would upset me to my very marrow if I were to be told that his memory should be obliterated ; is he now to be equated with the Nazis ?

The woke would say Yes ! He should be !

This syndrome is being replicated over here, too, to a degree.....but for you, over there, this is massively amplified, and I am genuinely worried about our prospects.

Regards, Phil

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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
scoucer
Berlin  Germany
Posts: 2856
Joined: 2010
Licensed Guides Raise Alarm of Major Threat to Gettysburg Monuments
8/7/2020 1:53:41 PM
Quote:
You know, Lincoln got it. He understood. That when the war is won, we must unite and become one nation again.

Respects, Morris


Exactly Morris.

Trevor
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`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.
Wazza
Sydney  Australia
Posts: 608
Joined: 2005
Licensed Guides Raise Alarm of Major Threat to Gettysburg Monuments
8/7/2020 9:41:51 PM
Very sad to see history of any type become sanitized to keep the minority happy.
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 4936
Joined: 2004
Licensed Guides Raise Alarm of Major Threat to Gettysburg Monuments
8/8/2020 3:59:00 AM
History is, I suppose , very malleable insofar as it is how people choose to record and interpret the past.

An accurate depiction of the past is what we must strive for ; but, all too often, this is suppressed by lobbyists of one kind or another.

If the woke commandeer the history of Gettysburg, we would see an interesting depiction of the repulse of “Pickett’s Charge” ....forget Stannard and his Vermonters hitting the rebel flank : it would be a LBGT regiment fixing bayonets and surging forward, supported by a division of African Americans with a woman in the lead .

It would be a bit more funny if it weren’t all too likely !

Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 4936
Joined: 2004
Licensed Guides Raise Alarm of Major Threat to Gettysburg Monuments
8/8/2020 6:19:53 AM
Quote:
What fascinated me about that war, from the time I was a kid was "how is it that one American can so hate another American as to want to face them on the field of battle." I must confess...it is becoming more and more understandable to me every day that goes by.

How does one get over that?

Respects, Morris



Morris,

How much hatred was there at Gettysburg ?

No complacency about the bloodiness : appalling.

The stakes were high ; the commitment intense; the casualties corresponded.

And yet...and yet....in terms of the conduct of civil wars throughout history, doesn't this one - and this battle especially - seem like a breath of fresh air ?

I am not comfortable trying to study the Spanish Civil War, or the Russian, let alone countenancing Bosnia, Syria or Iraq : now there you see hatred, along with atrocity and indiscriminate slaughter, torture, rapine etc.

You can think about Gettysburg, and somehow get uplifted.

Being British, of course, I'm exempt from the direct personal impact of family ties with Gettysburg ; but the fact that so many British people - and Winston Churchill, especially - have been so inspired by this conflict and this battle in particular, speaks volumes.

Regards, Phil





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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
morris crumley
Dunwoody GA USA
Posts: 2930
Joined: 2007
Licensed Guides Raise Alarm of Major Threat to Gettysburg Monuments
8/9/2020 9:28:24 AM
Phil, the "hate" I speak of is a kind of generic hatred. Having hatred of a group of your fellow citizens, and the cause they support, enough to have no problem taking up arms against them and shooting at them in a field as they do the same to you.

But in that generic form of bellicose disrespect, one finds events where in the midst of it all , one finds the respect for humanity despite the group hate. When Lt. James Purman of the 140th Pennsylvania was trying to escape the advancing rebels in the wheatfield -but stopped to carry a dying man to some shade and a safer spot, he was trapped by the onrushing confederates and shot through the left ankle. Unable to walk, he took the place of the poor soul he had stopped to aid and suffered from want of water and loss of blood. He cried out for help, though he had no friends nearby to listen to the pleas.

Lt. Thomas Oliver, the adjutant of the 24th Georgia did hear him, and crawled along, as one dared not stand, to find the wounded Yankee. He gave Purman water, cleansed his wounds,( Purman had also taken a round in the right leg and would require amputation of the left) and mounting Purman on his back, crawled quite some distance to the safety of his own lines. Hatred of the group, not the individual.

Then there is the hatred of the individual.

William Rhadamanthus Montgomery fought in the same outfit as my Grt Grt Grandfather, 3rd Georgia Battalion Sharpshooters. An officer who first served in Phillips Legion infantry battalion, he became a Lt. in Company F of the sharpshooters battalion. Long after the war, Montgomery wound up serving in the Ordinary`s office of Marietta , Cobb county Georgia. When an auditor from Washington DC came and needed go through the records, Montgomery saw to his every need, At the end of the audit, the man said to Montgomery that all was in order, but that he was intrigued that he found no records at all during and before the war. Montgomery explained," that is when the son of a bitch Sherman came through and burned our buildings and homes and records and took all our food and stock...and now he is dead and is rotting in Hell and I am damn glad of it!"

An amazing time of our history to study and learn about and from....not attack with mindless stupidity and willful blindness.

I came across this gem, hope you take the time to enjoy it as well.
[Read More]

Respects, Morris
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"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 4936
Joined: 2004
Licensed Guides Raise Alarm of Major Threat to Gettysburg Monuments
8/9/2020 2:55:28 PM
Thanks, Morris, that link looks interesting, and I will certainly take time to do it justice.

Your moving story reminds me of the Confederate soldier, surnamed Kirkland, who risked his life trying to comfort wounded and dying yankees in front of Marye’s Heights , Fredericksburg , in December 1862.

Was he from Georgia , or South Carolina ?

He was to be killed at Chickamauga.

There’a statue to him which I think I saw on the battlefield.....does memory serve me, or was it more recently put there ? I visited the place twice, first in 1985 and again in 1990.

If all monuments to Confederates are to be supressed on the NPS battlefields, will his also be deemed fit for removal ?

Editing : Richard R. Kirkland, his statue erected at Fredericksburg in 1965. South Carolina , Kershaw ‘s Brigade.

Regards, Phil



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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 4936
Joined: 2004
Licensed Guides Raise Alarm of Major Threat to Gettysburg Monuments
8/10/2020 2:39:17 AM
A superb rendition from Stephen Lane, Morris : thanks !

He looks familiar, and I recognised him from the Gettysburg movie, when he was cast as Pickett, and from the sequel, Gods and Generals, when he played Jackson.

I was much struck by the accent he employs : he sounds peculiarly “ British” to my ear. Is he affecting this because he thinks that American people 150 years ago tended to sound like that, or is it to increase the dramatic effect, because he could be using Shakespearean inspiration ? Note his use of the phrase coinage of my brain , which is clearly inspired by Shakespeare’s Hamlet.

On reflection, I reckon my allusion to the statue of Richard Kirkland at Fredericksburg should be used.

It might make a good rallying point.

What better symbol could there be to rally round if people want to stop this onslaught of the ignorant and the self obsessed who seek to impose their agenda ? Let’s hope that this is a scare story about the removal of CSA monuments at Gettysburg and elsewhere.....but it looks all too plausible to me.

Editing : my statistical antennae twitched a bit when the introductory talk by the host of the conference mentioned that c.54,000 veterans of the battle attended the 50th anniversary commemorations . That seems a high number, doesn’t it ? I wonder if there were lots of impostors, “ hangers on”, so to speak, with fake claims to having fought at Gettysburg. Bearing in mind the lower life expectancy of those days, not to mention the debilitating effects of wounds and invalidity after the hardships of service, it seems unlikely that one third of the battle’s participants would still be alive in 1913 : heck, a significant number of them were killed in battles after Gettysburg ....look no further than that Angel of Mercy, Richard Kirkland himself !

Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
morris crumley
Dunwoody GA USA
Posts: 2930
Joined: 2007
Licensed Guides Raise Alarm of Major Threat to Gettysburg Monuments
8/10/2020 10:30:23 AM
Phil, Purman died in 1915, so I doubt that there exists any sound recording of his accent. But, Lang affects what we southerners call " a Yankee clipper" accent which was prevalent a century ago among those who had a more formalized education. Purman was born in Greene ( or Green) County Pennsylvania, and did attend college and work at a newspaper setting type.

I have heard audio recordings of many Americans, in the early twentieth century, who had that formalized, "clipper accent." It does remind one of a "British' sound. A good example is FDR. If you ever heard the radio newsman H V Kaltenborn ( he played himself in the 1951 Sci-Fi classic "The Day The earth Stood Still") he is another example of this "Yankee clipper" accent. It is quite possible that Lang`s research found some description of the way Purnam spoke even as no recording exists. This is why we know that Richard Ewell spoke with a lisp, that Sherman repeated words and phrases often and spoke with a machine gun quick style, or that Longstreet had a course voice that could boom across a battlefield, that Lee would cock his head to one side a bit when irritated....Lang is a consummate professional actor. I noticed as he stepped to the podium he also affected a limp to represent the lost limb of the elder James Purman.

Respects, Morris
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"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 4936
Joined: 2004
Licensed Guides Raise Alarm of Major Threat to Gettysburg Monuments
8/10/2020 11:18:43 AM
Morris,

That phrase “Yankee clipper “ intrigues me.

Does it mean “clipped “, which is a characteristic of upper class British diction, or might it allude to the sailing craft known as clippers, that obviously featured prominently in New England maritime culture ?

Regards,
Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Dick Evick
Waco TX USA
Posts: 358
Joined: 2004
Licensed Guides Raise Alarm of Major Threat to Gettysburg Monuments
8/11/2020 11:08:44 AM
Talk of removing monuments, rewriting history all reminds me of George Orwell's novel "1984". I suspect many of you have read it. The novel was required reading while in high school (i'm dating myself here...) I have read it is banned in some areas now.

Dick.
Larry Purtell
Little Meadows PA USA
Posts: 1147
Joined: 2004
Licensed Guides Raise Alarm of Major Threat to Gettysburg Monuments
8/11/2020 5:56:27 PM
Quote:
A superb rendition from Stephen Lane, Morris : thanks !

He looks familiar, and I recognised him from the Gettysburg movie, when he was cast as Pickett, and from the sequel, Gods and Generals, when he played Jackson.

I was much struck by the accent he employs : he sounds peculiarly “ British” to my ear. Is he affecting this because he thinks that American people 150 years ago tended to sound like that, or is it to increase the dramatic effect, because he could be using Shakespearean inspiration ? Note his use of the phrase coinage of my brain , which is clearly inspired by Shakespeare’s Hamlet.

On reflection, I reckon my allusion to the statue of Richard Kirkland at Fredericksburg should be used.

It might make a good rallying point.

What better symbol could there be to rally round if people want to stop this onslaught of the ignorant and the self obsessed who seek to impose their agenda ? Let’s hope that this is a scare story about the removal of CSA monuments at Gettysburg and elsewhere.....but it looks all too plausible to me.

Editing : my statistical antennae twitched a bit when the introductory talk by the host of the conference mentioned that c.54,000 veterans of the battle attended the 50th anniversary commemorations . That seems a high number, doesn’t it ? I wonder if there were lots of impostors, “ hangers on”, so to speak, with fake claims to having fought at Gettysburg. Bearing in mind the lower life expectancy of those days, not to mention the debilitating effects of wounds and invalidity after the hardships of service, it seems unlikely that one third of the battle’s participants would still be alive in 1913 : heck, a significant number of them were killed in battles after Gettysburg ....look no further than that Angel of Mercy, Richard Kirkland himself !

Regards, Phil


Certainly some scoundrel's (Augustus Buell) passed themselves off as Gettysburg veterans. Of the men who attended the 1913 reunion probably a small percentage had participated in the battle. I believe the requirement was that the soldier had served 1861-65. By 1938 on the 75th anniversary only a hand full of attendee's had been in the battle.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Augustus_Caesar_Buell
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"My goal is to live forever. So far, so good.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 6211
Joined: 2006
Licensed Guides Raise Alarm of Major Threat to Gettysburg Monuments
8/11/2020 7:31:39 PM
Quote:
Quote:
This beggars belief.

Regards , Phil

I'm still not convinced this a true story. If it is I see nothing but evil coming from this.

Larry.


I'm with you guys on this! How can you tell the story of this great Battle of Gettysburg,, without having monuments from both sides to tell the story??

Madness, pure madness!
MD
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 4936
Joined: 2004
Licensed Guides Raise Alarm of Major Threat to Gettysburg Monuments
8/12/2020 9:33:30 AM
You can probably tell, MD and others, how moved I have been by the story of Richard Rowland Kirkland.

That anyone should seek to remove his statue strikes me as unspeakably ignorant and arrogant.

I also alluded to how proud I would be if I was a descendant of a soldier who had advanced with Kershaw at Gettysburg. I was rather fascinated to see that Kirkland was not only in Kershaw’s Brigade in the 2nd SC regiment, but that he also hailed from Kershaw County, in SC.

I would like to know more about General Joseph Kershaw, his background and conduct.

Being away on the Dorset Coast, I don’t have my cherished volumes of Battles and Leaders to hand, but IIRC one of the articles on Gettysburg was written by Kershaw himself. His brigade was hit by lethal enfilade artillery fire, and suffered terribly .

The fact that there is a county named after his family speaks much about the high prestige he and his folks enjoyed. I googled him and saw that he was the owner of many “ enslaved people “. Why enslaved people , and not “slaves” ? Is this a new development of Political Correctness, devised in order to make sure that we realise that slaves were people ? Just in case we’re such ignorant bigots that we must be instructed in how to think and speak ? Good grief, what condescension !

Is Kershaw a Scottish name ? Kirkland surely is.

Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
morris crumley
Dunwoody GA USA
Posts: 2930
Joined: 2007
Licensed Guides Raise Alarm of Major Threat to Gettysburg Monuments
8/12/2020 10:28:47 AM
Phil, Kershaw was a very good man.

William Macon Crumley was 14 years old when he enlisted in Cobb`s legion cavalry. An outstanding horseman, the boy...still not 5ft tall, was sent to be a courier to General Cobb. Cobb then allowed him to leave to become General Kershaw`s courier and aid. He served under Kershaw for the entire war. At 15, he convinced about half a dozen Union soldiers to surrender to him alone as he found them stranded by a withdrawal of their comrades in battle.....one of them was a color barer...with the stand of colors.

For this, Kershaw awarded his courier his personal sword...and many years later, with William married and living in Atlanta with three children, Kershaw wrote a very warm and wonderful letter and addressed a portion of it to his children that told them he wished they could know what a courageous lad their father was.

I would love to know if a book has been written about Kershaw. and would obtain one without a second thought.

Respects, Morris
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"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."
scoucer
Berlin  Germany
Posts: 2856
Joined: 2010
Licensed Guides Raise Alarm of Major Threat to Gettysburg Monuments
8/12/2020 11:32:13 AM
Quote:
Phil, Kershaw was a very good man.

William Macon Crumley was 14 years old when he enlisted in Cobb`s legion cavalry. An outstanding horseman, the boy...still not 5ft tall, was sent to be a courier to General Cobb. Cobb then allowed him to leave to become General Kershaw`s courier and aid. He served under Kershaw for the entire war. At 15, he convinced about half a dozen Union soldiers to surrender to him alone as he found them stranded by a withdrawal of their comrades in battle.....one of them was a color barer...with the stand of colors.

For this, Kershaw awarded his courier his personal sword...and many years later, with William married and living in Atlanta with three children, Kershaw wrote a very warm and wonderful letter and addressed a portion of it to his children that told them he wished they could know what a courageous lad their father was.

I would love to know if a book has been written about Kershaw. and would obtain one without a second thought.

Respects, Morris


Have searched myself Morris. Not found one.

Trevor
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`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 4936
Joined: 2004
Licensed Guides Raise Alarm of Major Threat to Gettysburg Monuments
8/12/2020 11:46:17 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Phil, Kershaw was a very good man.

William Macon Crumley was 14 years old when he enlisted in Cobb`s legion cavalry. An outstanding horseman, the boy...still not 5ft tall, was sent to be a courier to General Cobb. Cobb then allowed him to leave to become General Kershaw`s courier and aid. He served under Kershaw for the entire war. At 15, he convinced about half a dozen Union soldiers to surrender to him alone as he found them stranded by a withdrawal of their comrades in battle.....one of them was a color barer...with the stand of colors.

For this, Kershaw awarded his courier his personal sword...and many years later, with William married and living in Atlanta with three children, Kershaw wrote a very warm and wonderful letter and addressed a portion of it to his children that told them he wished they could know what a courageous lad their father was.

I would love to know if a book has been written about Kershaw. and would obtain one without a second thought.

Respects, Morris


Have searched myself Morris. Not found one.

Trevor



What a glaring omission in the historiography of that war !

Were I not such a lazy and hedonistic man, I would try and cobble something together myself !

Kershaw and Kirkland, the KK of the South !

It would make a welcome antidote to the more notorious KKK !

Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Larry Purtell
Little Meadows PA USA
Posts: 1147
Joined: 2004
Licensed Guides Raise Alarm of Major Threat to Gettysburg Monuments
8/12/2020 12:13:29 PM

Some information on the history of Kershaw County S.C.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kershaw_County,_South_Carolina

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"My goal is to live forever. So far, so good.
Emanon
Gibsonia PA USA
Posts: 36
Joined: 2014
Licensed Guides Raise Alarm of Major Threat to Gettysburg Monuments
8/12/2020 8:52:20 PM
Quote:
Quote:
I wish I could say that this is not true. But it doesn`t at all seem far-fetched in the madness that is going on here today!

Respects, Morris


I pulled the below link off a congressional website.

Scroll down to section 442

https://www.congress.gov/bill/116th-congress/house-bill/7608/text


Greg C. White


The relevant sections are buried about 80% into this monster spending bill:

'funding prohibition for confederate flags

Sec. 441. None of the funds made available to the National Park Service by this Act may be used for the purchase or display of a Confederate flag with the exception of specific circumstances where the flags provide historical context as described in the National Park Service memorandum entitled ‘‘Immediate Action Required, No Reply Needed: Confederate Flags’’ and dated June 24, 2015.

removal of confederate commemorative works

Sec. 442. Notwithstanding any other provision of law or policy to the contrary, within 180 days of enactment of this Act, the National Park Service shall remove from display all physical Confederate commemorative works, such as statues, monuments, sculptures, memorials, and plaques, as defined by NPS, Management Policies 2006, §9.6.1.

inventory of assets with confederate names

Sec. 443. Within 90 days of enactment of this Act, the Secretary of the Interior shall submit to the Committee on Appropriations an inventory of all assets under the jurisdiction of the Department of Interior with Confederate names.'

I don't know exactly what "NPS, Management Policies 2006, §9.6.1" happens to be, but there is definitely language in this bill that points to the removal of anything that even mentions the Confederacy from the battlefield site at Gettysburg.
Emanon
Gibsonia PA USA
Posts: 36
Joined: 2014
Licensed Guides Raise Alarm of Major Threat to Gettysburg Monuments
8/12/2020 9:14:08 PM
I did a bit more digging and found what appears to be the 'Section 9.6.1' referred to in Section 442 of the proposed law.

https://www.nps.gov/policy/MP_2006.pdf

This is on page 150 of the 180 page .pdf file:

'9.6 Commemorative Works and Plaques

9.6.1 General

For the purpose of this section, the term “commemorative work” means any statue, monument, sculpture, memorial, plaque, or other structure or landscape feature, including a garden or memorial grove, designed to perpetuate in a permanent manner the memory of a person, group, event, or other significant element of history. It also includes the naming of park structures or other features—including features within the interior of buildings. Within the District of Columbia and its environs, the Commemorative Works Act prohibits the establishment of commemorative works unless specifically authorized by an act of Congress. Outside of the District of Columbia and its environs, commemorative works will not be established unless authorized by Congress or approved by the Director (36 CFR 2.62). The consultation process required by section 106 of the National Historic Preservation Act must be completed before the Director will make a decision to approve a commemorative work.

To be permanently commemorated in a national park is a high honor, affording a degree of recognition that implies national importance. At the same time, the excessive or inappropriate use of commemorative works—especially commemorative naming—diminishes its value as a tool for recognizing people or events that are truly noteworthy. This situation can also divert attention from the important resources and values that park visitors need to learn about. Therefore, the National Park Service will discourage and curtail the use and proliferation of commemorative works except when

+ Congress has specifically authorized their placement; or

+ there is compelling justification for the recognition, and the commemorative work is the best way to express the association between the park and the person, group, event, or other subject being commemorated.

In general, compelling justification for a commemorative work will not be considered unless

+ the association between the park and the person, group, or event is of exceptional importance; and

+ in cases where a person or event is proposed for commemoration, at least five years have elapsed since the death of the person (or the last member of a group), or at least 25 years have elapsed since the event. (Within the District of Columbia and its environs, refer to the Commemorative Works Act for more specific requirements.)

Simply having worked in a park, or having made a monetary or other type of donation to a park, does not necessarily meet the test of compelling justification. In these and similar cases other forms of recognition should be pursued. With regard to the naming of park structures, names that meet the criteria listed above may be approved by the Director. Names that do not meet those criteria will require legislative action. All donor recognition must be consistent with Director’s Order #21: Donations and Fundraising. In accordance with Director’s Order #21, the naming of rooms, features, or park facilities will not be used to recognize monetary or in-kind donations to a park or to the National Park Service.'
Emanon
Gibsonia PA USA
Posts: 36
Joined: 2014
Licensed Guides Raise Alarm of Major Threat to Gettysburg Monuments
8/12/2020 9:39:57 PM
My take on this is that some clever Social Justice Warrior is trying to link the existence of anything that mentions the Confederacy to a policy of the National Park Service that is intended to deal with the naming of specific buildings or places after people who have donated to the park. This makes no sense, but that doesn't matter to our lawmakers.

There are many buildings on college campuses that are named after donors to the college or university. Many sports stadiums are named after a donor or corporate sponsor, for example "Heinz Field" is the place where the Pittsburgh Steelers play their home games. The NPS does not want national parks, monuments, or battlefields to be renamed after corporate sponsors or rich donors.

To understand my argument requires a re-reading of the last paragraph of this policy:

"Simply having worked in a park, or having made a monetary or other type of donation to a park, does not necessarily meet the test of compelling justification. In these and similar cases other forms of recognition should be pursued. With regard to the naming of park structures, names that meet the criteria listed above may be approved by the Director. Names that do not meet those criteria will require legislative action. All donor recognition must be consistent with Director’s Order #21: Donations and Fundraising. In accordance with Director’s Order #21, the naming of rooms, features, or park facilities will not be used to recognize monetary or in-kind donations to a park or to the National Park Service."

This policy against allowing donors to pay to have their name emblazoned on a national park has no logical connection to the people who actually were fighting on a battlefield. I don't think that Lee or Meade or any soldiers under their command should be considered 'donors' to the park, unless giving the 'last full measure of devotion' is considered by Congress or the NPS to be the legal equivalent of a monetary donation.

I never thought it would come to this - we are supposed to learn from our history, not erase our history.

I can now read the Gettysburg Address with a new understanding of the greatness of the foresight of Abraham Lincoln. Not only did Lincoln want to unite the nation to win the Civil War, he also embedded a warning to future generations that they should leave the field of battle to the dead, and not defile their memory to score political points.

"Four score and seven years ago our fathers brought forth on this continent, a new nation, conceived in Liberty, and dedicated to the proposition that all men are created equal.

Now we are engaged in a great civil war, testing whether that nation, or any nation so conceived and so dedicated, can long endure. We are met on a great battle-field of that war. We have come to dedicate a portion of that field, as a final resting place for those who here gave their lives that that nation might live. It is altogether fitting and proper that we should do this.

But, in a larger sense, we can not dedicate -- we can not consecrate -- we can not hallow -- this ground. The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract. The world will little note, nor long remember what we say here, but it can never forget what they did here. It is for us the living, rather, to be dedicated here to the unfinished work which they who fought here have thus far so nobly advanced. It is rather for us to be here dedicated to the great task remaining before us -- that from these honored dead we take increased devotion to that cause for which they gave the last full measure of devotion -- that we here highly resolve that these dead shall not have died in vain -- that this nation, under God, shall have a new birth of freedom -- and that government of the people, by the people, for the people, shall not perish from the earth.

Abraham Lincoln
November 19, 1863"

http://www.abrahamlincolnonline.org/lincoln/speeches/gettysburg.htm
Emanon
Gibsonia PA USA
Posts: 36
Joined: 2014
Licensed Guides Raise Alarm of Major Threat to Gettysburg Monuments
8/13/2020 1:38:37 AM
I am going to go a little bit beyond the scope of this one proposed Act of Congress and make a more general comment on what is happening in the USA at the moment.

The people of the nation are still closely united. The wounds of slavery and racism had healed to the point where President Obama was elected twice, notwithstanding that he had one white parent and one black parent. The people, by and large, don't care that much about race any more.

The elite of the nation are trying to divide us again and are reopening old wounds that were largely healed, by using wedge issues such as the Confederate flag and Confederate statues to try to divide and distract us. It's the old Roman tactic of divide et impera, which is Latin for divide and conquer.

The reason for this is that our elites are driving the nation into bankruptcy and are systematically looting the wealth of the nation. They are afraid that if the common people ever realize what they are doing, they will unite against the elites. The elites want us divided and at each other's throats, because they fear for their own necks if we stop and look around and see that our rulers are a greater threat to our nation than any foreign powers.

This proposed Act of Congress is a symptom of a systematic disease, rather than an isolated case of acute stupidity.
scoucer
Berlin  Germany
Posts: 2856
Joined: 2010
Licensed Guides Raise Alarm of Major Threat to Gettysburg Monuments
8/13/2020 11:03:31 AM
Quote:
The elite of the nation are trying to divide us again and are reopening old wounds that were largely healed, by using wedge issues such as the Confederate flag and Confederate statues to try to divide and distract us. It's the old Roman tactic of divide et impera, which is Latin for divide and conquer.

The reason for this is that our elites are driving the nation into bankruptcy and are systematically looting the wealth of the nation. They are afraid that if the common people ever realize what they are doing, they will unite against the elites. The elites want us divided and at each other's throats, because they fear for their own necks if we stop and look around and see that our rulers are a greater threat to our nation than any foreign powers.


Thank you Emanon. Interesting stuff. The "elite" is something I´ve heard banded about in Europe as well. From the far right and the far left. Particularly by Brexit where you had the "orwellian newspeak" of a vote for the elite being sold as vote against the elite. The Elite, or elites, has become a sort of plastic word surrounding an empty space that each can project into their idea of who the elites are. I´m not trying to be awkward I am seriously interested in who you see as the elites.

Trevor
----------------------------------
`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.
Emanon
Gibsonia PA USA
Posts: 36
Joined: 2014
Licensed Guides Raise Alarm of Major Threat to Gettysburg Monuments
8/14/2020 4:49:32 AM
[deleted]
Emanon
Gibsonia PA USA
Posts: 36
Joined: 2014
Licensed Guides Raise Alarm of Major Threat to Gettysburg Monuments
8/14/2020 4:51:56 AM
I typed a long reply but the power flickered and I lost the post.

In brief, I'd count George Soros, Jeff Bezos, the six megacorporations that own 90% of the US media, and the Federal Reserve as among the "elites" that are making America worse rather than better.

Soros gave $33 million to Black Lives Matter, and more $$$ to Democratic attorneys general in many places who are deliberately not doing their job of enforcing the law. Minneapolis suffered $500 million in damage from riots so far this year. Law and order are breaking down. Soros thinks that that is a feature, not a bug.

Bezos is an Internet centabillionaire who bought the Washington Post, an old print newspaper, just so that he can tell them what to write, so that the people in the nation's capital will read it. There's no economic reason for him to do this, other than the value of influencing politicians.

The US has the highest unemployment rate in history and the highest stock market valuations in history because the Federal Reserve is replacing capitalism with central planning (or at least central banking). The Politburo of the Central Committee of the Communist Party apparently did such a good job of managing the economy of the Soviet Union that the Fed aspires to create the same thing in the USA.

I could go on, and on and on and on, but that's enough for a post on a military history website.
scoucer
Berlin  Germany
Posts: 2856
Joined: 2010
Licensed Guides Raise Alarm of Major Threat to Gettysburg Monuments
8/14/2020 8:44:01 AM
Thank you for your reply.

Trevor
----------------------------------
`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.

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