MILITARY HISTORY ONLINE

User:    Password:

 
(1939-1945) WWII Battles
Author
Message
ColonelMac1775
Copperas Cove
TX USA
Posts: 85

Air Power - WW II
Posted on: 4/28/2019 6:05:59 AM

Excerpt of a series of lectures by military historian Victor Davis Hanson

[Read More]

Rich
----------------------------------
Some things are believed because they are demonstrably true. But, many others are believed simply because they've been asserted again and again.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan
MI USA
Posts: 5411

Re: Air Power - WW II
Posted on: 4/28/2019 8:37:16 AM

Hi Rich,

Thanks for posting, I'll watch it later, due to time constraints. But you got to believe Air Power, took center stage in WWII, replacing Naval power, just ask the RN!?

Looking forward to viewing it,
Thanks,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
dt509er
Santa Rosa
CA USA
Posts: 772

Re: Air Power - WW II
Posted on: 4/28/2019 10:19:23 AM


Quote:
Hi Rich,

Thanks for posting, I'll watch it later, due to time constraints. But you got to believe Air Power, took center stage in WWII, replacing Naval power, just ask the RN!?

Looking forward to viewing it,
Thanks,
MD
--Michigan Dave


Maybe in Europe but without the aircraft carriers in the Pacific, 'air power' would have been extremely limited due to the distances a/c had to travel, thus the reasons for the naval battles of Pearl Harbor, Coral Sea, the Eastern Solomons, Santa Cruz Islands & Midway. The island bases of Rabaul, Guadalcanal and Port Moresby were critical in their own right for air power and displayed continuous air battles but it was the carrier (naval power) that turned the tide in the Pacific even though they carried the weaponry of air power, IMO.

----------------------------------
"American parachutists-devils in baggy pants..." I take offense to your perception of being offended! “If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better experiment.” Lord Ernest Rutherford
ColonelMac1775
Copperas Cove
TX USA
Posts: 85

Re: Air Power - WW II
Posted on: 4/28/2019 11:24:12 AM

This is actually just one of a series of lectures on WW II given at Hillsdale College. Following this one, he talks about Sea Power, followed by Land Power. Your counterargument about air power in the Pacific vs air power in Europe has nothing whatever to do with the lecture itself.
----------------------------------
Some things are believed because they are demonstrably true. But, many others are believed simply because they've been asserted again and again.
anemone
DONCASTER S. YORKS
 UK
Posts: 7899

Re: Air Power - WW II
Posted on: 4/28/2019 12:38:00 PM

The air warfare of World War II was a major component in all theaters and, together with anti-aircraft warfare, consumed a large fraction of the industrial output of the major powers.

Germany and Japan depended on air forces that were closely integrated with land and naval forces; the Axis powers downplayed the advantage of fleets of strategic bombers, and were late in appreciating the need to defend against Allied strategic bombing.

By contrast, Britain and the United States took an approach that greatly emphasised strategic bombing, and (to a lesser degree) tactical control of the battlefield by air, as well as adequate air defences. Both Britain and the U.S. built a strategic force of large, long-range bombers that could carry the air war to the enemy's homeland. Simultaneously, they built tactical air forces that could win air superiority over the battlefields, thereby giving vital assistance to ground troops.

The U.S. and Royal Navy also built a powerful naval-air component based on aircraft carriers, as did Japan; these played the central role in the war at sea.

Regards

Jim


----------------------------------
Pro Patria Saepe Pro Rege Semper
George
Centre Hastings
ON Canada
Posts: 9912

Re: Air Power - WW II
Posted on: 4/28/2019 12:55:02 PM


Quote:
Hi Rich,

Thanks for posting, I'll watch it later, due to time constraints. But you got to believe Air Power, took center stage in WWII, replacing Naval power, just ask the RN!?

Looking forward to viewing it,
Thanks,
MD
--Michigan Dave


The European war on land demanded air and land forces working together. But I don't see how the RN saw its influence diminished by the increased use of air power. The RN was critical in the prosecution of the Battle of the Atlantic and provided most of the assets in the Normandy landings I believe.

All allied navies lent support to land forces so far as their range of fire would allow.
----------------------------------
OpanaPointer
St. Louis
MO USA
Posts: 1389

Re: Air Power - WW II
Posted on: 4/28/2019 12:58:29 PM

Nobody leaves a branch of their military idle if they can find a use for it. Partisans favor one branch over the others, professionals think All Arms.
----------------------------------
dt509er
Santa Rosa
CA USA
Posts: 772

Re: Air Power - WW II
Posted on: 4/28/2019 4:03:10 PM


Quote:
This is actually just one of a series of lectures on WW II given at Hillsdale College. Following this one, he talks about Sea Power, followed by Land Power. Your counterargument about air power in the Pacific vs air power in Europe has nothing whatever to do with the lecture itself.
--ColonelMac1775


I commented to MD's post Col. not yours, which I found the link very interesting. Thanks for sharing...
----------------------------------
"American parachutists-devils in baggy pants..." I take offense to your perception of being offended! “If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better experiment.” Lord Ernest Rutherford
Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan
MI USA
Posts: 5411

Re: Air Power - WW II
Posted on: 5/6/2019 9:12:18 PM

Air Power, heck the Nazis were the 1st in space! Check this out!

[Read More]

Comments??
MD

BTW Shoot, NASA should be the "Nazi Aeronautics & Space Administration"!?
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
OpanaPointer
St. Louis
MO USA
Posts: 1389

Re: Air Power - WW II
Posted on: 5/7/2019 7:08:29 AM

Operation Paperclip keeps important information out of Soviet hands.
----------------------------------
Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan
MI USA
Posts: 5411

Re: Air Power - WW II
Posted on: 6/24/2019 6:06:31 PM


Quote:

Quote:
Hi Rich,

Thanks for posting, I'll watch it later, due to time constraints. But you got to believe Air Power, took center stage in WWII, replacing Naval power, just ask the RN!?

Looking forward to viewing it,
Thanks,
MD
--Michigan Dave


Maybe in Europe but without the aircraft carriers in the Pacific, 'air power' would have been extremely limited due to the distances a/c had to travel, thus the reasons for the naval battles of Pearl Harbor, Coral Sea, the Eastern Solomons, Santa Cruz Islands & Midway. The island bases of Rabaul, Guadalcanal and Port Moresby were critical in their own right for air power and displayed continuous air battles but it was the carrier (naval power) that turned the tide in the Pacific even though they carried the weaponry of air power, IMO.


--dt509er



DT,

Speaking of the battle of Coral Sea, here is a nice synopsis of it, with maps!

[Read More]

What say you about the Battle of Coral Sea??
MD

----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
dt509er
Santa Rosa
CA USA
Posts: 772

Re: Air Power - WW II
Posted on: 6/25/2019 1:21:13 AM


Quote:

Quote:

Quote:
Hi Rich,

Thanks for posting, I'll watch it later, due to time constraints. But you got to believe Air Power, took center stage in WWII, replacing Naval power, just ask the RN!?

Looking forward to viewing it,
Thanks,
MD
--Michigan Dave


Maybe in Europe but without the aircraft carriers in the Pacific, 'air power' would have been extremely limited due to the distances a/c had to travel, thus the reasons for the naval battles of Pearl Harbor, Coral Sea, the Eastern Solomons, Santa Cruz Islands & Midway. The island bases of Rabaul, Guadalcanal and Port Moresby were critical in their own right for air power and displayed continuous air battles but it was the carrier (naval power) that turned the tide in the Pacific even though they carried the weaponry of air power, IMO.


--dt509er



DT,

Speaking of the battle of Coral Sea, here is a nice synopsis of it, with maps!

[Read More]

What say you about the Battle of Coral Sea??
MD


--Michigan Dave


IMO, the Battle of the Coral Sea was a tremendous Allied victory over the IJN as US and Aussie naval forces stopped the invasion that the IJN had in play. I tire of hearing, tactical loss, strategic victory. Hell, when you fight a war you are going to lose equipment and men and if that means you do so in blunting the enemy's main plan, you have succeeded. Admiral Fletchers forces did just that, they stopped a Japanese invasion and largely began the evisceration of the IJN aircrews and maintenance personnel.
----------------------------------
"American parachutists-devils in baggy pants..." I take offense to your perception of being offended! “If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better experiment.” Lord Ernest Rutherford
Brian Grafton
Victoria
BC Canada
Posts: 2585

Re: Air Power - WW II
Posted on: 6/26/2019 6:01:00 PM


Quote:
Operation Paperclip keeps important information out of Soviet hands.

... and to hell with ideology.

Quote:
On Thursday, September 20, 1945, Wernher von Braun arrived at Fort Strong. The small military site on the northern tip of Boston Harbour's Long Island was the processing point for Project Paperclip, the government programme under which hundreds of German scientists were brought into America.

Two points. First, the use of the term "hundreds". How many did the US bust out of the bureaucratic jungle of "denazification"? Was US science in such bad shape that it would take anyone with a degree in the hard sciences? Were all these "hundreds" in the rocket program or were some part of Heisenberg's less than successful nuclear program. I.G. Farben? Krupps?

Second, what about von Braun's documented past. He was a certified member of the Nazi party, which was pretty normal for any kind of position in Hitler's Germany. But he was also SS, and that at least suggests commitment to Nazi ideology. The Peenemünde V-weapon development relied on it's labour on forced labour and sometimes perhaps worse. Von Braun lived within a short distance of their "barracks/compounds", so he probably had a hint of how they came to be there and how they were treated. He knew about the slave labour preparing the underground assembly factories for the V-2s, and said nothing against conditions or deaths. Yet he was cleared – not just transported, but cleared – for entry into the US within 5 months of his surrender/arrest, with relatively rapid and direct access to the best the US had to offer in rocketry.

And at that, the Soviets gave us Sputnik and Gargarin while US rockets were still exploding on the pad. Seems the US cut some kinda deal with those denazified Nazis, don't you think?

Cheers
Brian G
----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
OpanaPointer
St. Louis
MO USA
Posts: 1389

Re: Air Power - WW II
Posted on: 6/27/2019 7:19:07 AM

We'd need to know how many wouldn't have been denazified.
----------------------------------
GaryNJ
Cumberland
NJ USA
Posts: 39

Re: Air Power - WW II
Posted on: 6/27/2019 10:18:05 AM


Quote:
Operation Paperclip keeps important information out of Soviet hands.
--OpanaPointer


As that documentary states it wasn't just the US that was trying to get the German scientists and engineers. The Russians and British were also doing the same. Here is an interesting article on the Russian effort to obtain German expertise.

[Read More]

Gary
----------------------------------
Brian Grafton
Victoria
BC Canada
Posts: 2585

Re: Air Power - WW II
Posted on: 6/27/2019 8:12:36 PM

Gary, I agree. Everybody wanted German scientists and engineers. My first question, quite simply, concerned OP's suggestion the US did this to keep those folks from the Soviets. I would argue they did to get a step up on others. And the second issue I raised for discussion is whether the US ignored or circumvented their own dictates (largely shared with Britain and France) on treatment of Nazis. Membership in the SS or Gestapo were red flags; membership in the NASDP was a yellow flag. I think that's a critical issue, and find it muddies Paperclip when it comes to von Braun and his political ilk.

I'm fully prepared to believe that the Soviets didn't give a damn about political commitment levels. I say that without yet having time to read your link. But I'd also argue that the Soviets had fought a very different war than the Western Allied did, and so had very different approaches to those they had conquered.

And I'm also still fussing myself with why German scientists – I have to assume that included both hard and soft sciences, along with most affiliated engineering wallahs – were considered to be so hot. After all, who lost the European war? Is rocket fuel a chemist's issue or a chemical engineer's issue. Is sub-orbital targeting a mathematical or a technical challenge. Is a toxic vapour a chemical issue or simply a lab challenge? At least some of questions such as these have to include what a victorious nation is prepared to sell the moral/ethical high ground for.

Cheers
Brian G
----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Killroy63
Pinson
AL USA
Posts: 177

Re: Air Power - WW II
Posted on: 7/9/2019 5:50:53 PM

Somewhat off-topic, but we have to take some measure of care when going down the road of "guilt by association" or of rejecting knowledge gained through less-than-civilized means.

No one will argue that the "medical experiments" of Josef Mengele or Japan's infamous Detachment 731 were barbaric. Yet those experiments, repugnant as they were, did lead to better treatments of such conditions as wounds, hypothermia and the like. Should we disregard the knowledge because we (rightfully) object to the means by which it is gained?
----------------------------------
Brian Grafton
Victoria
BC Canada
Posts: 2585

Re: Air Power - WW II
Posted on: 7/9/2019 8:15:05 PM

Yes
----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Brian Grafton
Victoria
BC Canada
Posts: 2585

Re: Air Power - WW II
Posted on: 7/9/2019 8:55:42 PM

Sorry, Killroy, that "Yes" post was unthinking.

You raise a critical point, and I'm not entirely sure it's off-topic. At the same time, if one establishes rules by which conduct of others will be assessed, is it acceptable to ignore the rules for one's own benefit? Surely, this is a major issue in discussing "Paper Clip". The issue was, I think, two-fold. One had to do with German development of rocketry; the other with decided guilt by association. A NSADP member was suspect and an SS member culpable. A rocket scientist may be a military benefit. But to ignore the scientist's credentials and status (SS) and the workers his group used (at least some forced labour) because his team built a rocket-based weapon is to suggest that punishment of Germans was perhaps hypocritical. I can understand bending the rules, of course, but I can't imagine taking the moral high road while doing so.

Your broader topic is, of course, different. One cannot undo findings gained by unacceptable means. But to try to tie these two issue together, I have trouble believing that any victorious nation would have paper-clipped Josef Mengele. We would have seen show trials instead.

Bottom line, I guess, is that there is a difference between Mengele and von Braun. The West bypassed the rules for von Braun (IMHO) because it wanted the benefit of his knowledge. I think they compromised themselves by doing so. Yet I hope we would not have bypassed the rules for Mengele. The question is, of course, "why?".

I agree that mankind learned at least some insights through the work of the likes of Mengele. But I would argue that this came at the expense of the most basic human ethical and moral values. Mengele didn't think his experiments were affecting humans, and I can't say the same for von Braun and his use of forced labour.

We still have hosts of issues today that grow out of similar issues. Stem cells; fetal cells; genetic manipulation; capital punishment; abortion – all are linked to the moral equivalency that is associated with Paper Clip. I'll admit I'm pushing the barriers even more than you are. But I don't think the decision to ignore the political status of valuable Nazis is a one-time issue.

Cheers
Brian G
----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan
MI USA
Posts: 5411

Re: Air Power - WW II
Posted on: 7/16/2019 10:15:49 PM

Brian,

What about this??

[Read More]

It had to help the RAF!?
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."

© 2019 - MilitaryHistoryOnline.com LLC