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 (1939-1945) WWII
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17thfabn
Ohio OH USA
Posts: 181
Joined: 2008
Which way was the wind blowing during the Normandy landings.
1/17/2021 12:13:27 PM
I am currently reading "The Dead and Those About to Die" by John McManus.

It is about the U.S. 1st Infantry Division during the Normandy landings.

They talk about how ineffective the pre landing aerial and naval bombardment was.

It got me thinking would heavy use of smoke have helped? Or was the wind conditions such that it would have quickly moved covering smoke in the wrong way?
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Withdrawal in disgust is not the same as apathy.
morris crumley
Dunwoody GA USA
Posts: 3062
Joined: 2007
Which way was the wind blowing during the Normandy landings.
1/17/2021 12:54:54 PM
I believe some smoke was used...but the weather conditions were such that the smoke could not be controlled anyway. In addition, smoke can be a double edged sword..it can conceal the attackers, but conceals enemy positions as well. Smoke would also obscure the landing the beach LZ`s from their assigned landing craft ( which happened in many cases anyway) and would obscure the targets for cover-fire.
Smoke can be useful, but when the Airborne carried out an amphibious assault across the Waal river...the smoke wafted away quickly and did little good in concealing anything.

Respect, Morris
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"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."
DT509er
Santa Rosa CA USA
Posts: 1098
Joined: 2005
Which way was the wind blowing during the Normandy landings.
1/17/2021 4:44:13 PM
Based on the information and video's I have watched, winds were blowing from East/NorthEast in the direction of West/Southwest. Sky's were cloudy but not so heavy that it prevented Paratroop drops and glider landings. But, it was not the winds that scattered the troopers all about the landing areas, that was largely due to aircrews piloting the planes. By midday of June 6th, the sky's cleared up and the sea settled down a bit.

The timing of the assault, based on the meteorological "forecasts" made by Captain James Stagg and his team allowed for the assault to take place in that small window of 'weather time' of June 6th, had Ike delayed until the opportune tides for later in June, the weather then was much worse those few weeks later.

As a side note, based on the article I posted below: "June 1944 was one of the windiest of the century in southeastern England, with only 1917 windier, going back to 1895."[i/]

[Read More]

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"American parachutists-devils in baggy pants..." German officer, Italy 1944. “If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better experiment.” Lord Ernest Rutherford
17thfabn
Ohio OH USA
Posts: 181
Joined: 2008
Which way was the wind blowing during the Normandy landings.
1/17/2021 10:22:36 PM
Quote:
I believe some smoke was used...but the weather conditions were such that the smoke could not be controlled anyway. In addition, smoke can be a double edged sword..it can conceal the attackers, but conceals enemy positions as well.

Respect, Morris


Take a situation where the landing craft are coming in and men are scrambling off the beach are more or less siting ducks in a shooting gallery . "Blindness" would probably work in the attackers favor.

I read a book years ago by a captain from the 116 Regiment of the 29th Infantry Division. On D-Day they landed with the 1st Infantry Division. He stated that one of the most useful effects of the pre invasion bombardment was fires that were started. The smoke helped shield their movement.
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Withdrawal in disgust is not the same as apathy.
RichTO90
Bremerton WA USA
Posts: 664
Joined: 2004
Which way was the wind blowing during the Normandy landings.
1/22/2021 12:57:12 PM
"Smokers", landing craft equipped with chemical smoke dispensers, were an integral part of the landing plan, but proved ineffective because of the prevailing wind speed, which dispersed the smoke too quickly. The accidental grass firs started by shelling between DOG and EASY on OMAHA did produce lasting smoke, which helped shelter the landing of the reserve battalion of the 116th Infantry and 5th Ranger Battalion.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon MI USA
Posts: 7169
Joined: 2006
Which way was the wind blowing during the Normandy landings.
6/10/2022 1:02:48 PM
Quote:
I am currently reading "The Dead and Those About to Die" by John McManus.

It is about the U.S. 1st Infantry Division during the Normandy landings.

They talk about how ineffective the pre landing aerial and naval bombardment was.

It got me thinking would heavy use of smoke have helped? Or was the wind conditions such that it would have quickly moved covering smoke in the wrong way?



Hi Guys, 2022 issue,

We talked about a D-day threads, here may be a start, what kind of smoke screens were used?? I'm sure some type of shielding the landings was used or at least attempted?

Probably ships, or maybe planes,
What say you??
MD

BTW we can use this as WWII D-day thread or create a new one??
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
OpanaPointer
St. Louis MO USA
Posts: 1513
Joined: 2010
Which way was the wind blowing during the Normandy landings.
6/10/2022 7:42:46 PM
The USN kept meteorological data routinely, there should be a very complete set of numbers for this event.
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 12569
Joined: 2009
Which way was the wind blowing during the Normandy landings.
6/10/2022 9:18:09 PM
The British MET office has extensive archives on weather conditions on D-day.

I downloaded this booklet from the MET archives and it indicate observations taken in the Caen area after 7-8 hours of landing activities:

Broken cloud
Good visibility
Onshore winds rated at Beaufort Force 4.

[Read More]


Beaufort 4 is considered to be a moderate breeze with 11-16 knot winds.

Even at that, when I checked the Beaufort scale, those winds would contribute to 3-5 foot waves with frequent white caps.

Must have been unpleasant for the troops coming in, let alone the DD tanks.


We know that Eisenhower fretted over the selection of the day for D-day and based upon recommendations of Chief Meterological Officer Stagg, he chose June 6 when June 4-6 proved to be too risky.

Later Stagg sent him a report on June 21 describing the weather conditions from June 17-21 which I believe was the next period after June 6 in which it was felt that the attack could go in.

The weather proved to be miserable in that time period thus indicating to DDE that he had made the correct choice.

This has been called the "Gods of War" memo because Eisenhower jotted a thank you note to Stagg in which he said, "Thanks, and thank the Gods of War we went when we did."

You may download the memo here.

[Read More]

cheers,

George



Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 5772
Joined: 2004
Which way was the wind blowing during the Normandy landings.
6/11/2022 3:21:14 AM
This terrifying dilemma about the weather and whether to go or not was the subject of a play called PRESSURE, starring David Haig as John Stagg. It was staged in London several years ago, and we were thoroughly captivated by it.

In the meantime, I’ve been wondering about whether to deploy some CWGC statistics , indicating the varying degrees of intensity as the British and Canadian soldiers were committed to various offensives through the twelve weeks of fighting that followed D-day.

Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 12569
Joined: 2009
Which way was the wind blowing during the Normandy landings.
6/11/2022 7:35:54 AM
Hello Phil,

I think that you should start another thread on this section. No reason why we can't discuss weather conditions on this one and a discussion of the variation in the intensity of action on the British/Canadian beaches on another.

Cheers,

George
scoucer
Berlin  Germany
Posts: 3061
Joined: 2010
Which way was the wind blowing during the Normandy landings.
6/11/2022 2:24:20 PM
Quote:
Hello Phil,

I think that you should start another thread on this section. No reason why we can't discuss weather conditions on this one and a discussion of the variation in the intensity of action on the British/Canadian beaches on another.

Cheers,

George


Yes Phil. I am no expert on D-Day but have looked more at the Falaise Gap where my wife´s grandfather fell.

Trevor
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`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.
Phil Andrade
London  UK
Posts: 5772
Joined: 2004
Which way was the wind blowing during the Normandy landings.
6/12/2022 7:34:49 AM
Quote:
Quote:
Hello Phil,

I think that you should start another thread on this section. No reason why we can't discuss weather conditions on this one and a discussion of the variation in the intensity of action on the British/Canadian beaches on another.

Cheers,

George


Yes Phil. I am no expert on D-Day but have looked more at the Falaise Gap where my wife´s grandfather fell.

Trevor



Sigrid’s grandfather ? He must’ve been well into his middle age in 1944 .

Was he an officer, or senior NCO, Trevor ?

The Poles put up a tremendous fight against the Germans who were desperately trying to get out of that fatal gap.

They were attached to the Canadian army , but made their unique contribution.

It was surely a terrible time for those Poles in Normandy, as they were thinking of their brothers and sisters who were fighting to the death at the same time in Warsaw.

Regards, Phil

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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
George
Centre Hastings ON Canada
Posts: 12569
Joined: 2009
Which way was the wind blowing during the Normandy landings.
6/12/2022 10:23:17 AM
Indeed, the stand by the 1st Polish Armoured on Maczuga (The Mace) is a great story from WWII. The Poles were the cork in the bottle at the Falaise Gap and they were attacked on all sides by German units who were supposed to keep the bottle neck open.

They were attached to the 1st Canadian Army and went into combat on Aug. 8 during Operation Totalize. Their commander was General Maczek. They were ordered by Lt. Gen. Guy Simmonds to occupy Mt. Ormel or Hill 262 which was shaped like a mace, hence the Polish name for the battle ground, Maczuga.

The Germans did manage to keep one corridor open that allowed many to escape but thousands were captured or destroyed by artillery and aircraft.

The Poles were ready to die on this hill. They had been told by a critically wounded officer that there was no point to surrender.

Quote:
"Gentlemen, everything is lost. I do not think the Canadians can come to our rescue. We are down to one hundred and ten fit men. No more supplies, very little ammunition, five shells per gun, and fifty rounds per man! That’s not very much...you must fight all the same! As you know, it is useless surrendering to the SS! I thank you: tonight we shall die for Poland and for civilization!"


Major Stefanowicz



The Canadian forces could not immediately relieve the Poles on Hill 262. They were on their own and when the Canadians finally got there on Aug. 21, they could see the carnage on the hill and below where the Poles had destroyed so many German SS soldiers and their equipment. The Canadians erected a small sign in tribute to their Polish brothers. It said simply, "A Polish Battlefield".

By the end, the Poles had little to fight with and that allowed too many Germans to escape. There weren't sufficient numbers of troops at the neck of the bottle to stop them.

But in 72 hours of continuous fighting, the Polish losses were 325 dead, 1,002 wounded, and 114 missing out of about 1500 men.

Today a museum and monument sits atop Montormel as a tribute to those who fought the Battle of the Falaise Pocket and especially the Poles.



I wish to get there someday.

Cheers,

George



NYGiant
Polo Grounds NY USA
Posts: 605
Joined: 2021
Which way was the wind blowing during the Normandy landings.
8/7/2022 8:26:40 PM
The museum at MountOrmel is one of the finest , focused museums I have ever visited. There is a nice presentation with a map, and then they open up the windows and you get a look at the terrain.

It was the Polish 1st Armored Division that fought here. They had to fight the Germans in front of them trying to escape, and fight the Germans behind them who were trying to keep the gap open.

This area is very well interpreted with kiosk describing the action.

NYGiant
Polo Grounds NY USA
Posts: 605
Joined: 2021
Which way was the wind blowing during the Normandy landings.
8/8/2022 7:52:24 AM
The current in the water was from West to East which was not appreciated prior to the landings.
RichTO90
Bremerton WA USA
Posts: 664
Joined: 2004
Which way was the wind blowing during the Normandy landings.
11/22/2022 2:35:17 AM
Quote:
The current in the water was from West to East which was not appreciated prior to the landings.


It was appreciated prior to the landings. At OMAHA the primary offshore currents run west to east before high tide and reverse to east to west after high tide. That was well known and estimates of velocity at different times (during spring versus neap tides) and different distances offshore were calculated and published, with cautions regarding accuracy, in the NEPTUNE Monograph, prior to the invasion on 21 April 1944.
NYGiant
Polo Grounds NY USA
Posts: 605
Joined: 2021
Which way was the wind blowing during the Normandy landings.
11/22/2022 6:47:34 AM
The fact that the landing craft were pushed East from their intended landing beaches, proves otherwise.

With the exception of Company A, no unit of the 116th landed where it was planned. Strong winds and tidal currents carried the landing craft from right to left. The 16th Regiment on the east half of the beach did not fare much better, landing in a state of confusion with units badly intermingled.

As I have walked this round extensively, I can help you to understand this battlefield.

Cheers, NYGiant
RichTO90
Bremerton WA USA
Posts: 664
Joined: 2004
Which way was the wind blowing during the Normandy landings.
11/22/2022 1:17:50 PM
Quote:
The fact that the landing craft were pushed East from their intended landing beaches, proves otherwise.


Proves what otherwise? Do you have that great a problem with reading comprehension? You stated that "The current in the water was from West to East which was not appreciated prior to the landings." That is factually incorrect. The landing were before high tide. It was well "appreciated" prior to the landings that meant the current would run west to east until the tide turned. That "appreciation" was published with the tide tables in the NEPTUNE Monograph, which was the terrain analysis completed prior to the landings.

Quote:
With the exception of Company A, no unit of the 116th landed where it was planned. Strong winds and tidal currents carried the landing craft from right to left. The 16th Regiment on the east half of the beach did not fare much better, landing in a state of confusion with units badly intermingled.


Straw man. Try arguing what was said instead if what your febrile imagination thinks was said.

Yes, the known tidal currents, which were even greater than estimated when combined with the prevailing west to east wind, raised havoc with the LCA and LCVP of the 116th and 16th Infantry.

Quote:
As I have walked this round extensively, I can help you to understand this battlefield.


No need. Been there, done that, and have obviously done much deeper reading into the original documentation than you.
NYGiant
Polo Grounds NY USA
Posts: 605
Joined: 2021
Which way was the wind blowing during the Normandy landings.
11/22/2022 1:56:30 PM
Quote:
Quote:
The fact that the landing craft were pushed East from their intended landing beaches, proves otherwise.


Proves what otherwise? Do you have that great a problem with reading comprehension? You stated that "The current in the water was from West to East which was not appreciated prior to the landings." That is factually incorrect. The landing were before high tide. It was well "appreciated" prior to the landings that meant the current would run west to east until the tide turned. That "appreciation" was published with the tide tables in the NEPTUNE Monograph, which was the terrain analysis completed prior to the landings.

Quote:
With the exception of Company A, no unit of the 116th landed where it was planned. Strong winds and tidal currents carried the landing craft from right to left. The 16th Regiment on the east half of the beach did not fare much better, landing in a state of confusion with units badly intermingled.


Straw man. Try arguing what was said instead if what your febrile imagination thinks was said.

Yes, the known tidal currents, which were even greater than estimated when combined with the prevailing west to east wind, raised havoc with the LCA and LCVP of the 116th and 16th Infantry.

Quote:
As I have walked this round extensively, I can help you to understand this battlefield.


No need. Been there, done that, and have obviously done much deeper reading into the original documentation than you.


Sorry but you are wrong about the appreciation of the West to East current. The landing crafts landed further East than intended. That is all very well documented in the after action reports of the soldiers who landed on Omaha beach.

The comment about the 116th Infantry regiment is fact.
You do realize that the landings at Utah Beach were also made further East than intended...another fact.
NYGiant
Polo Grounds NY USA
Posts: 605
Joined: 2021
Which way was the wind blowing during the Normandy landings.
11/22/2022 1:56:34 PM
Quote:
Quote:
The fact that the landing craft were pushed East from their intended landing beaches, proves otherwise.


Proves what otherwise? Do you have that great a problem with reading comprehension? You stated that "The current in the water was from West to East which was not appreciated prior to the landings." That is factually incorrect. The landing were before high tide. It was well "appreciated" prior to the landings that meant the current would run west to east until the tide turned. That "appreciation" was published with the tide tables in the NEPTUNE Monograph, which was the terrain analysis completed prior to the landings.

Quote:
With the exception of Company A, no unit of the 116th landed where it was planned. Strong winds and tidal currents carried the landing craft from right to left. The 16th Regiment on the east half of the beach did not fare much better, landing in a state of confusion with units badly intermingled.


Straw man. Try arguing what was said instead if what your febrile imagination thinks was said.

Yes, the known tidal currents, which were even greater than estimated when combined with the prevailing west to east wind, raised havoc with the LCA and LCVP of the 116th and 16th Infantry.

Quote:
As I have walked this round extensively, I can help you to understand this battlefield.


No need. Been there, done that, and have obviously done much deeper reading into the original documentation than you.


Sorry but you are wrong about the appreciation of the West to East current. The landing crafts landed further East than intended. That is all very well documented in the after action reports of the soldiers who landed on Omaha beach.

The fact that practically all the mislanded craft were east of their targets points to he tidal current as a contributing factor. That the current was very strong on D Day is indicated by the report of the destroyer Satterlee, which found it necessary to steer 20 to 30 degrees "up current" in order to maintain position in the firing lane.

Whatever the cause, a majority of landing craft during the first hour came in east of their appointed beach sector, and this majority included craft bearing engineers as well as infantry. Sometimes the margin of error was as much as a thousand yards or more; one company (E) of the 116th, destined for Easy Green, came in, boat sections scattered, on the 16th beaches as far east as Fox Green. More often, the error was in the order of a few hundred yards, but this could be enough to undo the

The comment about the 116th Infantry regiment is fact.
You do realize that the landings at Utah Beach were also made further East than intended...another fact.
My advice is to look up the word "appreciate", and the word "strong".
RichTO90
Bremerton WA USA
Posts: 664
Joined: 2004
Which way was the wind blowing during the Normandy landings.
11/22/2022 3:10:15 PM
Quote:
Sorry but you are wrong about the appreciation of the West to East current. The landing crafts landed further East than intended. That is all very well documented in the after action reports of the soldiers who landed on Omaha beach.


I am wrong? Really? So are you now claiming the appreciation published and distributed to BIGOTED officers doesn't exist? That is quite possibly the most extraordinary argument I think I've ever run into.

Quote:
The fact that practically all the mislanded craft were east of their targets points to he tidal current as a contributing factor. That the current was very strong on D Day is indicated by the report of the destroyer Satterlee, which found it necessary to steer 20 to 30 degrees "up current" in order to maintain position in the firing lane.


Dear God but you do delight in straw man argumentation.


NYGiant
Polo Grounds NY USA
Posts: 605
Joined: 2021
Which way was the wind blowing during the Normandy landings.
11/22/2022 3:16:13 PM
No, I never stated that the evidence didn't exist. I just commented that the current wasn't appreciated. Nice try.

Direct quote from the US history of the Normandy landings. Pesky thing those pesky facts.

Evidently, you don't like push-back.

RichTO90
Bremerton WA USA
Posts: 664
Joined: 2004
Which way was the wind blowing during the Normandy landings.
11/22/2022 4:16:51 PM
Quote:
No, I never stated that the evidence didn't exist. I just commented that the current wasn't appreciated. Nice try.


The problem is that it was appreciated. The NEPTUNE Monograph is an appreciation. That despite the simple fact that it was appreciated ahead of time but the currents still created disorder among the LCA and LCVP simply demonstrates that the warnings in the appreciation were accurate.

Quote:
Direct quote from the US history of the Normandy landings. Pesky thing those pesky facts.


What "direct quote" is that?

Quote:
Evidently, you don't like push-back.


No, I just don't enjoy arguing with persons that are rudely illogical.
RichTO90
Bremerton WA USA
Posts: 664
Joined: 2004
Which way was the wind blowing during the Normandy landings.
11/22/2022 4:20:06 PM
Quote:

You do realize that the landings at Utah Beach were also made further East than intended...another fact.


I missed this gem earlier. So its a fact that south is east? Fascinating.

You do realize that the reasons the landings at UTAH were made further south are very different from the reason the landings of the LCA and LCVP at OMAHA were so scrambled? No, I didn't think you did.
NYGiant
Polo Grounds NY USA
Posts: 605
Joined: 2021
Which way was the wind blowing during the Normandy landings.
11/22/2022 4:22:25 PM


You finally agree with me that the currents did push the landing craft's further east. So I am making some progress here.

The quote about the Slaterlee. Or haven't you read the Government publications too?

"No, I just don't enjoy arguing with persons that are rudely illogical"..Since you resort to juvenile name calling, I win again!!

NYGiant
Polo Grounds NY USA
Posts: 605
Joined: 2021
Which way was the wind blowing during the Normandy landings.
11/22/2022 4:28:33 PM
Quote:
Quote:

You do realize that the landings at Utah Beach were also made further East than intended...another fact.


I missed this gem earlier. So its a fact that south is east? Fascinating.

You do realize that the reasons the landings at UTAH were made further south are very different from the reason the landings of the LCA and LCVP at OMAHA were so scrambled? No, I didn't think you did.


reading and comprehension are so important, don't you agree?

Evidently you don't either. The landings were further East, and the current again played the major role in addition to the loss of 3 of the 4 leading control vessels.

Some day I know you will understand the battle, I am sure!

RichTO90
Bremerton WA USA
Posts: 664
Joined: 2004
Which way was the wind blowing during the Normandy landings.
11/22/2022 5:06:18 PM
Quote:
reading and comprehension are so important, don't you agree?


Indeed but I've given up on seeing any from you.

Quote:
Evidently you don't either. The landings were further East, and the current again played the major role in addition to the loss of 3 of the 4 leading control vessels.


To be exact, they were 2,400 yards southeast. BTW, only one of the PCV, PC-1261 for TF UNCLE RED was lost, to a mine. Its backup SCV, LCC-80 wasn't "lost" but was nonoperational at that point because it had fouled her propeller on the cable of a buoy dropped by the minesweepers. The second SCV, LCC-90 was busy guiding the LCT (A) to the beach and was unavailable.

The second PCV, for TF TARE GREEN, PC-1176, was ordered to take the place of PC-1261 but was busy guiding in the LCT with the DD Tanks of Company A, 70th Tank Battalion when LCT-593 hit a mine and sank throwing them into confusion. The TF TARE GREEN SCV LCC-60 finally took over for PC-1176 but by then it was too late and the shift had already occurred. The second SCV with TF TARE GREEN, LCC-70 did try to correct the drift but was completely unsuccessful.

So one of six were lost, not 3 of 4.

The reason was not the current alone but a combination of the current, the loss of PC-1261, the incapacity of LCC-80, and the presence of German pressure mines and the confusion that caused. It was not a lack of "appreciation" of the currents.

Quote:
Some day I know you will understand the battle, I am sure!


Ditto. Did you notice that unlike OMAHA, the LCVP at UTAH, despite the shift, still landed more or less in an organized manner as intended? I wonder why that was.
NYGiant
Polo Grounds NY USA
Posts: 605
Joined: 2021
Which way was the wind blowing during the Normandy landings.
11/22/2022 6:10:21 PM
Quote:
Quote:
reading and comprehension are so important, don't you agree?


Indeed but I've given up on seeing any from you..

You were the one who didn't read the Utah Beach comment I made. Right/. Right!

Quote:
Evidently you don't either. The landings were further East, and the current again played the major role in addition to the loss of 3 of the 4 leading control vessels.


To be exact, they were 2,400 yards southeast. BTW, only one of the PCV, PC-1261 for TF UNCLE RED was lost, to a mine. Its backup SCV, LCC-80 wasn't "lost" but was nonoperational at that point because it had fouled her propeller on the cable of a buoy dropped by the minesweepers. The second SCV, LCC-90 was busy guiding the LCT (A) to the beach and was unavailable.

The second PCV, for TF TARE GREEN, PC-1176, was ordered to take the place of PC-1261 but was busy guiding in the LCT with the DD Tanks of Company A, 70th Tank Battalion when LCT-593 hit a mine and sank throwing them into confusion. The TF TARE GREEN SCV LCC-60 finally took over for PC-1176 but by then it was too late and the shift had already occurred. The second SCV with TF TARE GREEN, LCC-70 did try to correct the drift but was completely unsuccessful.



The reason was not the current alone but a combination of the current, the loss of PC-1261, the incapacity of LCC-80, and the presence of German pressure mines and the confusion that caused. It was not a lack of "appreciation" of the currents.

So one of six were lost, not 3 of 4. Please look up the definition of ..."lost".

BTW, nice use of Google to look it up!


Quote:
Some day I know you will understand the battle, I am sure!


Ditto. Did you notice that unlike OMAHA, the LCVP at UTAH, despite the shift, still landed more or less in an organized manner as intended? I wonder why that was.


Simple. The Army Air Force unloaded all of its Ordnance on the last WN, causing the Germans to be incapacitated. It was Teddy Roosevelt Jr who made the decision to start the war from that point.

This is pretty basic stuff and I am surprised you are asking these basic questions. Is there anything else I can help you with?


RichTO90
Bremerton WA USA
Posts: 664
Joined: 2004
Which way was the wind blowing during the Normandy landings.
11/22/2022 6:27:59 PM
Quote:

Simple. The Army Air Force unloaded all of its Ordnance on the last WN, causing the Germans to be incapacitated. It was Teddy Roosevelt Jr who made the decision to start the war from that point.


I;m beginning to think you're pulling my leg and you're really a ten-year-old.

How did the "Army Air Force" do anything that affected the ability of the US Navy landing craft off UTAH to maintain their relative positions when landing, albeit 2,400 yards to the southeast of where they intended to land.

Quote:
This is pretty basic stuff and I am surprised you are asking these basic questions. Is there anything else I can help you with?


Yeah it is and I'm a little surprised that you're incapable of answer these basic questions about basic stuff.
RichTO90
Bremerton WA USA
Posts: 664
Joined: 2004
Which way was the wind blowing during the Normandy landings.
11/22/2022 6:40:48 PM
Quote:
The quote about the Slaterlee. Or haven't you read the Government publications too?


You didn't "quote" anything about the USS Satterlee. You opined "Satterlee, which found it necessary to steer 20 to 30 degrees "up current" in order to maintain position in the firing lane". Having just finished reading the Satterlee's Action Report for 6 June and its 6 June entry in its War Diary, imagine my astonishment when I found there was no mention of finding it "necessary to steer 20 to 30 degrees "up current" in order to maintain position in the firing lane". Or by "Government publication" do you mean William B. Kirkland Jr.'s Destroyers at Normandy Naval Gunfire Support at Omaha Beach? Which also doesn't say anything about Satterlee steering "up current". Maybe you were thinking Doyle, which at 1100 mentioned it was "Maneuvering ship to stay in position against current which is running west at 2.8 knots. Flood tide." Oh, "running west" not "east", perhaps because it was after the turn of the tide and the current had reversed.

Anyway, 2.8 knots is interesting because it indicates the current was about 1.1 knots greater than the estimate. It also is notable that OMAHA Beach (page 40) noted "One of the control vessels for Dog Beach drifted off station, which may explain some of the later troubles of approach in that sector. The fact that all the mislanded craft were east of their targets points to the tidal current as a contributing factor." I had forgotten they had problems with control craft as well.
NYGiant
Polo Grounds NY USA
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Which way was the wind blowing during the Normandy landings.
11/22/2022 6:51:01 PM
Evidently you are unaware of the role of the 9th Air Force and its role in the Utah beach landings. The 9th Air Force approached the German Was on Utah beach parallel to the shoreline, and at low altitude. These planes dropped their bombs with deadly effect. And where the 4th Infantry Division landed , it was opposite a WN that had its garrison incapacitated by said bombing.



More basic stuff, that you are incapable of answering.


NYGiant
Polo Grounds NY USA
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Which way was the wind blowing during the Normandy landings.
11/22/2022 7:04:19 PM
This is pretty basic stuff, from some of the 1st books I read about the Normandy Invasion.

Please get a copy of Omaha Beachhead, published by the Historical division of the War Department. On page 40 ( of the copy I have), is the reference to the Slaterlee and its report.

Nice try! And thanks for playing.

Mic drop.

RichTO90
Bremerton WA USA
Posts: 664
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Which way was the wind blowing during the Normandy landings.
11/22/2022 11:41:26 PM
Quote:
Evidently you are unaware of the role of the 9th Air Force and its role in the Utah beach landings. The 9th Air Force approached the German Was on Utah beach parallel to the shoreline, and at low altitude. These planes dropped their bombs with deadly effect. And where the 4th Infantry Division landed , it was opposite a WN that had its garrison incapacitated by said bombing.


You mean the 341 B-26 dispatched and the 293 B-26 bombing of the 344th, 387th, 323d, 394th, 397th, 386th, and 322d Groups, IX Bomber Command bombing targets in Normandy between 0609 and 0627? Of those, 277 dropped 4,414 250-lb bombs on the seven defended localities (WN) from St Martin de Varreville and Beau Guillot, while 16 aircraft of the 322d Group dropped 32 2,000-lb bombs intended to clear four gaps in the obstacles.

Of those, the 322d Group's 2,000-lb bombs ended up far inland, 101 aircraft dropping on the two WN at La Madeleine missed entirely, 66 aircraft dropping on the two WN further south at Beau Guillot had slight success, 73 aircraft dropping on the two WN at Varreville also had some success, but it was the 37 aircraft dropping on WN 5 at La Grand Dune that was most accurate...at least 9 aircraft dropped their loads in the center of the position. Roughly 144 250-lb bombs fell in the center of the position, destroying much of the perimeter wire and putting all its heavy weapons except for a single 8cm mortar out of action. Leutnant Artur Jahnke and his 24 men were badly concussed and gave little resistance.

Of course, how any of that had an effect on how well the coxswains on the approaching LCM and LCVP were able to cope with the current remains a mystery.

RichTO90
Bremerton WA USA
Posts: 664
Joined: 2004
Which way was the wind blowing during the Normandy landings.
11/22/2022 11:52:00 PM
Quote:
This is pretty basic stuff, from some of the 1st books I read about the Normandy Invasion.

Please get a copy of Omaha Beachhead, published by the Historical division of the War Department. On page 40 ( of the copy I have), is the reference to the Slaterlee and its report.


Can you bother to spell Satterlee correctly? Yep, page 40. Of course, a normal person might wonder why Satterlee's Action Report doesn't mention it, which might make a normal person wonder where the Army got it from. It also isn't mentioned in the Action Report for the Western Naval Task Force. Next time I can get by NARA I'll check the COMH files on the writing of OMAHA Beachhead, sometimes those say where some bits came from that are not sourced, like this one. Gee, see why citations are important?

BTW, notice what it says just above there? "Despite all the intensive study put on conditions of current and wind for this part of the coast, all the visual aids for spotting beachmarks by panoramic photographs, and all the experience with similar difficulties in training exercises, a great many landing craft of the first waves came in away from their target sectors. Smoke and dust along the beach from naval fire and a slight early morning mist made it hard to recognize landmarks as the shore was neared. One of the control vessels for Dog Beach drifted off its station, which may explain some of the later troubles of approach in that sector. The fact that practically all the mislanded craft were east of their targets points to he tidal current as a contributing factor. It was known that with a rising tide (low tide on 6 June was at 0525), a strong current ran laterally eastward along Omaha Beach, reaching maximum velocity of nearly 2.7 knots at 5 miles off shore; strong winds might increase its average velocity."

Did you miss that when you decided that "The current in the water was from West to East which was not appreciated prior to the landings."?

Quote:
Nice try! And thanks for playing.

Mic drop.


I think I'll revise the estimate of your actual age downward.
NYGiant
Polo Grounds NY USA
Posts: 605
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Which way was the wind blowing during the Normandy landings.
11/23/2022 6:19:15 AM
I'm glad I could show you the reference!!

Cheers, NYGiant
NYGiant
Polo Grounds NY USA
Posts: 605
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Which way was the wind blowing during the Normandy landings.
11/23/2022 6:23:40 AM
They weren't able to cope with the current as the IV Division landed 1800 meters to the East ion ther intended landing zone.

Glad I could show you the reference though!

Cheers, NYGiant
RichTO90
Bremerton WA USA
Posts: 664
Joined: 2004
Which way was the wind blowing during the Normandy landings.
11/23/2022 12:11:45 PM
Quote:
I'm glad I could show you the reference!!

Cheers, NYGiant


Still no curiosity as to why the Satterlee would not mention it in its Action Report?
RichTO90
Bremerton WA USA
Posts: 664
Joined: 2004
Which way was the wind blowing during the Normandy landings.
11/23/2022 12:29:24 PM
Quote:
They weren't able to cope with the current as the IV Division landed 1800 meters to the East ion ther intended landing zone.


You truly are confused aren't you?

The LCA and LCVP carrying the assault troops of the 8th Infantry in TF TARE GREEN and TF UNCLE RED had little problem maintaining station and landing more or less in correct order as planned, although the entire formation was shifted 2,400 yards to the southeast. There was little or no of the miss-landings by individual LCA and LCVP that so characterized the landings of the 116th and 16th Infantry at OMAHA.

The question is why?

Your response was because the Ninth Air Force dropped bombs on the Germans, which makes absolutely no sense. What does dropping bombs on Germans have to do with steering small boats towards the beach? What does dropping bombs on Germans have to do with UTAH's small boat formation landing with its formation basically intact and as planned, only at the wrong location, while OMAHA's small boat formation were badly broken up and landed willy-nilly along the extent of the OMAHA area?

You seem incapable of thinking or responding rationally but instead rely on rudeness, bluster, and irrational thinking as responses. If you are as old as you claim you are you may wish to get cognitive testing done since those are symptoms of age-related mental impairment, i.e. senility.
NYGiant
Polo Grounds NY USA
Posts: 605
Joined: 2021
Which way was the wind blowing during the Normandy landings.
11/23/2022 4:57:06 PM
Well, according to Balkowski and Caddick-Adams, and all the other reports I have read, it was the offshore current which pushed the landing craft South.

Maybe you should read those sources?...just sayin'.

MicDrop

Cheers NYGiant
RichTO90
Bremerton WA USA
Posts: 664
Joined: 2004
Which way was the wind blowing during the Normandy landings.
11/23/2022 5:18:47 PM
You can lead a horse to water but you can't make him think.
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