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(1861-1865) Civil War Battles (Eastern Theater)
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Phil Andrade
London
 UK
Posts: 4304
A request for a rough and ready assessment
Posted on: 1/5/2020 5:43:27 PM

John,

In the aggregate, of course you’re right.

That phrase actual combat is important : when I survey the bloodiness of Shiloh, Murfreesboro or Chickamauga, it’s apparent that the bloodiness of battle West rivalled that in the East.

Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
John R. Price
Wilkes-Barre
PA USA
Posts: 1058
A request for a rough and ready assessment
Posted on: 1/5/2020 11:35:11 PM

Phil,

Sometimes I think we try and read too much into the statistics.
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A battle long forgotten by our country in a war never understood by our country. "to satisfy our endless needs and justify our bloody deeds, in the name of destiny and in the name of God"
Phil Andrade
London
 UK
Posts: 4304
A request for a rough and ready assessment
Posted on: 1/6/2020 1:49:54 AM

Yes....that’s my fate : to be a victim of my own obsession !

Regards. Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Phil Andrade
London
 UK
Posts: 4304
A request for a rough and ready assessment
Posted on: 1/6/2020 5:24:10 AM

Worth repeating, I think, John, is the dynamic imparted by Lee to the tempo and intensity of the war in the East. Best example is comparing Virginia with Georgia in May and June 1864. Not much disparity in terms of army size, but total bloodshed in the Overland at least three times that in the contest between Sherman and Johnston in that period.

Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
John R. Price
Wilkes-Barre
PA USA
Posts: 1058
A request for a rough and ready assessment
Posted on: 1/6/2020 10:16:32 AM

Phil,

Ah but Joe Johnston didn't have a Grant who didn't pass up a frontal attack out of the optimism of just one more push and they will break. I think we sometimes forget it takes two to tango.

Personally I think The Seven Days to Sharpsburg a better example of Lee's influence on the tempo and intensity of operations in Virginia.
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A battle long forgotten by our country in a war never understood by our country. "to satisfy our endless needs and justify our bloody deeds, in the name of destiny and in the name of God"
john hayward
Allenstown
NH USA
Posts: 737
A request for a rough and ready assessment
Posted on: 1/6/2020 2:25:08 PM

Joe Johnston seemed to fight battles not to lose them as others fought to win them. In 1862 at the beginning of the Peninsula Campaign, he understood he was outnumbered but never understood that he needed to keep McClellan out of Richmond. He wasted time in 1863 in Mississippi as Grant was surrounding Vicksburg. Again believing he was outnumbered so he did nothing.
Against Sherman he moved his army with skill, slowing Sherman and dodging the big blow Sherman tried to land. Kennesaw Mt was an example of Sherman's frustration. Perhaps his tactics were sound in Georgia, trading space for time but from Richmond it appeared to be the same old story, failure to come to grips with the enemy.
Johnston reportedly was the best shot in the pre-war Army. One day while bird hunting with fellow officers, while they fired away, hitting as many as they missed, Johnston never fired once. When asked why, he offered the following excuses: "they were too high or too low or too far left or too far right." Perhaps he needed things to just right, not a gambler.
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"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross."
Phil Andrade
London
 UK
Posts: 4304
A request for a rough and ready assessment
Posted on: 1/6/2020 3:14:21 PM

Joe Johnston fought too little ; Bobby Lee too much !

Johnston and McClellan exhibited similar traits : risk averse to the point of abuse of their duties ; a breathtaking disdain for their respective Presidents ; beloved by their troops .

Lee and Grant displayed two of those attributes in reverse : heartily reconciled to great risk to the point of recklessness : and very amenable to their political bosses.

In an extraordinary defiance of caricature, Grant went on the record as saying that he thought Joe Johnston was a better general than Lee ; while Lee was unhesitating in stating that he rated McClellan as his most able opponent !

Here’s something that I reflect on : in a war which took many more lives through squalor and hardship than it did from battle wounds , the AoNV lost more men in battle than it did from disease. Does this imply that soldiers who fight frequent bloody battles under a commander they adore are less susceptible to the ravages of disease, because their morale is sustained by victory and high repute ? Or is it more a testimony to the excessive slaughter caused by Lee’s zeal for battle ?

Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Phil Andrade
London
 UK
Posts: 4304
A request for a rough and ready assessment
Posted on: 1/6/2020 3:55:59 PM

Quote:


Personally I think The Seven Days to Sharpsburg a better example of Lee's influence on the tempo and intensity of operations in Virginia.


If you’ll forgive me for making another statistical foray, John, I reckon that the casualty figures endorse what you say.

I mentioned in a post above that, in the thirteen months between assuming command of the AONV and the end of the Battle of Gettysburg, Lee lost 85,000 killed and wounded. Half of these were incurred in thirteen weeks between the Seven Days and Sharpsburg.

Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
john hayward
Allenstown
NH USA
Posts: 737
A request for a rough and ready assessment
Posted on: 1/6/2020 5:00:37 PM

Possibly more than the South could afford. In Freeman's Lee's Lieutenants he brings out the idea that the South was losing more officers by KIA than it could find replacements. By late 1864 early 1865 it was putting more on Lee's shoulders to manage the army. Not only field officers but officers too.
The North on the other hand appeared to be growing stronger in this area.
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"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross."
John R. Price
Wilkes-Barre
PA USA
Posts: 1058
A request for a rough and ready assessment
Posted on: 1/6/2020 10:29:03 PM

John,

I believe that Freeman was putting forth the idea that there was a "crisis in command" in the Confederate officer corps from day one that was only going to get worse. I tend to agree and would point to Bragg, Pemberton, Loring and Bishop Polk as examples. I'm also not sure that the Union was "getting stronger" in this so much as numbers and production are a quality in and of themselves and they cover up a multitude of shortfalls. I wouldn't say Union leadership at say Cold Harbor or the Crater was top notch.

John & Phil,

How many frontal attacks did Grant launch during the Overland? How many times did Hood decline to attack between Dalton and Atlanta and who's plan was Peachtree Creek?
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A battle long forgotten by our country in a war never understood by our country. "to satisfy our endless needs and justify our bloody deeds, in the name of destiny and in the name of God"
john hayward
Allenstown
NH USA
Posts: 737
A request for a rough and ready assessment
Posted on: 1/7/2020 7:13:14 AM

I was thinking more along the lines that in the Union Army the learning curve wasn't as steep as in the Confederate Army. Hancock, Humphreys, Gibbon, Griffin,and even Sheridan all started at lower level commands and spent some time there, learning the ropes. They worked their way up. Of course you still had some like Burnsides who just couldn't measure up.
On the Confederate side especially after Chancellorsville, Lee had serious command issues at all levels, Corps, Division and Brigade.
Out West it was even worse but I think we might want to take a serious look at Davis and the way he handle that theater.
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"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross."
John R. Price
Wilkes-Barre
PA USA
Posts: 1058
A request for a rough and ready assessment
Posted on: 1/7/2020 10:05:46 AM

John,

You mean like Cleburne, Stephen Lee, Rhodes, Gordon, Mahone, Forrest, Taylor and Dick Anderson?

I don't disagree that there was a "crisis in command" on the Confederate side and that it got worse as the war went on, I/m saying that the same is true for the Union but that their advantages and winning the war covers up a lot of faults.

Out West the senior leadership was terrible but there were a hell of a lot of very good mid level leaders.
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A battle long forgotten by our country in a war never understood by our country. "to satisfy our endless needs and justify our bloody deeds, in the name of destiny and in the name of God"
Phil Andrade
London
 UK
Posts: 4304
A request for a rough and ready assessment
Posted on: 1/7/2020 10:18:44 AM

Quote:
Possibly more than the South could afford. In Freeman's Lee's Lieutenants he brings out the idea that the South was losing more officers by KIA than it could find replacements. By late 1864 early 1865 it was putting more on Lee's shoulders to manage the army. Not only field officers but officers too.
The North on the other hand appeared to be growing stronger in this area.



There might be mileage in assessing which of the two sides was more active in promoting enlisted men to officer rank.

This might assuage the damage caused by the high attrition of officers.

This is not something that I can ascertain, but I think that the Confederacy relied a lot more on its NCO contingent.

Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
john hayward
Allenstown
NH USA
Posts: 737
A request for a rough and ready assessment
Posted on: 1/7/2020 10:22:31 AM

Two of those you mentioned Cleburne and Rodes were dead by end of 1864. Taylor in a meaningless command. Gordon Mahone and Anderson point out that given the chance, these officers grew up thru the command structure
Sear's Lincoln's Lieutenants traces the evolution and growth of the Union high command. Almost the direct opposite of the Confederacy
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"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross."
John R. Price
Wilkes-Barre
PA USA
Posts: 1058
A request for a rough and ready assessment
Posted on: 1/7/2020 12:33:43 PM

Phil,

Are you forgetting the regimental officer elections early in the war for the CSA?
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A battle long forgotten by our country in a war never understood by our country. "to satisfy our endless needs and justify our bloody deeds, in the name of destiny and in the name of God"
Phil Andrade
London
 UK
Posts: 4304
A request for a rough and ready assessment
Posted on: 1/7/2020 2:11:34 PM

John,

Yes, to my shame....I had forgotten that rather important aspect.

Please give me a brief summary of the way this worked, and how it impinged on the performance of the Confederate armies.

Regards, Phil

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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
John R. Price
Wilkes-Barre
PA USA
Posts: 1058
A request for a rough and ready assessment
Posted on: 1/7/2020 6:42:35 PM

Phil,

I was thinking that there were a lot of enlisted men promoted to company officers during those elections skewing your idea or any conclusions you would take from finding how many enlister were promoted officers by each side.

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A battle long forgotten by our country in a war never understood by our country. "to satisfy our endless needs and justify our bloody deeds, in the name of destiny and in the name of God"
John R. Price
Wilkes-Barre
PA USA
Posts: 1058
A request for a rough and ready assessment
Posted on: 1/7/2020 9:35:19 PM

John,

I don't know what you are getting at only that you seem to be saying Confederate bad Union good. Whose place were Gordon, Mahone and Anderson going to take earlier if that is your argument. Longstreet, Jackson, AP Hill and Ewell also "grew up within the command structure." They all commanded a brigade at First Bull Run then a division by the time of Seven Pines and then corps. The "learning curve" was exactly the same Union and Confederate the first 2 years of the war because the reality is none of the new brigade or divisions commanders had even commanded a regiment in the "Old Army."
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A battle long forgotten by our country in a war never understood by our country. "to satisfy our endless needs and justify our bloody deeds, in the name of destiny and in the name of God"
Phil Andrade
London
 UK
Posts: 4304
A request for a rough and ready assessment
Posted on: 1/8/2020 1:42:16 AM

John,

The thing that intrigues me about this Confederate election of officers is that it suggests a form of “ bottom up” leadership. Not what one would expect from a society which is usually depicted as very hierarchical. This caricatured view of “ The South” might be very misleading. It has some bearing on the battlefield attrition. The more the enlisted men feel that they have a stake in the business, the harder and better they will fight, and the more prepared to risk death or wounds in the service of the cause. I remember clearly an interview with Shelby Foot in the Ken Burns TV documentary : he explained how wise the confederate soldiers were in exercising their choice : avoiding the temptation to pick the amenable comrades, and selecting those who exhibited the skills required, even if they were disliked.

Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
John R. Price
Wilkes-Barre
PA USA
Posts: 1058
A request for a rough and ready assessment
Posted on: 1/8/2020 1:34:58 PM

Phil,

Up to a point its the militia system North and South before the war to elect the officers at least at the company level. Then there is their concept of states rights in which the state and local is the equal to the central authority.

I'd agree with misleading but others would say contradictory and I think both are right. Its real easy to accept the caricature and say good and evil.

For the most part I agree with Foote but in some cases good men lost our to popularity or a laxness to discipline.
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A battle long forgotten by our country in a war never understood by our country. "to satisfy our endless needs and justify our bloody deeds, in the name of destiny and in the name of God"
morris crumley
Dunwoody
GA USA
Posts: 2554
A request for a rough and ready assessment
Posted on: 1/8/2020 1:48:27 PM

The entire confederate system is about states, localities, individuals.

It was not the " 1st corps, second division, third brigade. It was more, "Longstreet`s Corps, McLaws Division, Wofford`s brigade. My own lineage signed onto a company that was raised by Robert McMillan, a planter and well respected member of the community, and was called "The McMillan Guard."

Respects, Morris
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"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."
John R. Price
Wilkes-Barre
PA USA
Posts: 1058
A request for a rough and ready assessment
Posted on: 1/8/2020 4:13:51 PM

Morris,

He pulled the wool over their eyes and got them to fight to defend slaver and enrich the plantation elite. Do ya think he had a copy of "The Art of the Deal?" Charlatans of the same ilk this McMillan and Trump! Can ya all detect the Great White North accent? Opps shouldn't have said ya all
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A battle long forgotten by our country in a war never understood by our country. "to satisfy our endless needs and justify our bloody deeds, in the name of destiny and in the name of God"
morris crumley
Dunwoody
GA USA
Posts: 2554
A request for a rough and ready assessment
Posted on: 1/8/2020 9:54:31 PM

Yeah..the y`all through me off a bit!

Respects, Morris
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"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."
Nick Spencer
IOW,United kingdom
 
Posts: 93
A request for a rough and ready assessment
Posted on: 1/9/2020 8:02:49 AM

Quote:
John,

Yes, to my shame....I had forgotten that rather important aspect.

Please give me a brief summary of the way this worked, and how it impinged on the performance of the Confederate armies.

Regards, Phil



http://civil-war-officers.leadr.msu.edu/2015/04/15/officer-selection-2/

"Our Captain is a Gentleman”: Officer Elections among Virginia Confederates, 1861-1862
https://scholarscompass.vcu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=5917&context=etd
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john hayward
Allenstown
NH USA
Posts: 737
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Posted on: 1/9/2020 8:19:34 AM

John
Not saying that at all. Outstanding officers on both sides. Just saying as the war continued the pool of officers on the Confederate side got smaller and smaller. Also more general officers felt they had to lead from the front to inspire their men which led to more being killed. Even those at the regimental or company level. Promote NCOs to officers means the need to find good Sgts. Vicious circle. More burden put on those remaining few.
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"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross."
John R. Price
Wilkes-Barre
PA USA
Posts: 1058
A request for a rough and ready assessment
Posted on: 1/9/2020 11:00:52 AM

John,

But the point the whole "South couldn't afford Lee's style of command" school of thought don't get is that the "crisis in command" was unavoidable. Look at the attrition in the officers corps in the AOT from Dalton to Peachtree Creek with basically no major attacks. The South couldn't afford that. Lee's style of command tried to make the best use of that command talent while it was available because the fact is there would never be enough and what there was would continually shrink.

Edit Lead from the front? Go back and take a look at the tactical manuals. Out front saying "follow me" is exactly were the commander is supposed to be on the company, regimental and brigade level and the division is supposed to be following close behind. In defense it basically the same. What was Hancock's line as he made himself a target at Gettysburg?
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A battle long forgotten by our country in a war never understood by our country. "to satisfy our endless needs and justify our bloody deeds, in the name of destiny and in the name of God"
john hayward
Allenstown
NH USA
Posts: 737
A request for a rough and ready assessment
Posted on: 1/9/2020 11:41:16 AM

Looking at Hardee's diagram of a regimental line, i don't see the captain or lieutenants out in front when on the firing line. During the advance that was the captain's position, 3 paces in front, even with the colors. On the defense his position was on the company's right, issuing orders, shouting encouragement. The lieutenants were behind the lines behind their platoons with the file closers. The field officers who were dismounted were behind the lines.
Of course this is the ideal.

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"When fascism comes to America it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross."
Phil Andrade
London
 UK
Posts: 4304
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Posted on: 1/10/2020 4:13:51 AM

Any differences between Eastern and Western battles regarding the role of artillery ?

Were the Western battles more likely to be fought on ground that rendered artillery less effective ?

More forests or mountains making for difficulties for the gunners ?

The rebels ( Ruggles) used a heavy artillery barrage to break the yankee line at the Sunken Road at Shiloh ; their final attack at Murfreesboro was repulsed by cannons ; likewise at Peachtree Creek.

Chickamauga definitely reduced the role of the artillery.

No Malvern Hill in the West ?

Edit : Grant dispensed with some of his artillery in the Wilderness. After that battle Lee reported that, while his number of wounded was large, the severity of wounds was diminished because artillery hadn’t played a large role in the fighting . This is controversial..... I’ll deal with this in another post. It seems that the rebels used their artillery to greater effect than the yankees in that campaign : think of the Widow Tapp farm episode on 6 May, when Poague’s gun line saved the day, and the easy repulse of the Union attack at Spotsylvania on 18 May. Significant that Lee mistakenly withdrew a dozen cannons from the salient there, only to replace them just as the yankees stormed the position on the 12th. Too late, with dire results for Johnson’s division.

An afterthought : death of Leonidas Polk tells us that Georgia mountains were no barrier to accurate gunnery !

Regards, Phil
----------------------------------
"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
Steve Clements
Toronto
ON Canada
Posts: 635
A request for a rough and ready assessment
Posted on: 1/10/2020 1:39:28 PM

John P.,

Quote:
But the point the whole "South couldn't afford Lee's style of command" school of thought don't get is that the "crisis in command" was unavoidable.


I think that you are mixing apples and oranges in this sentence.

I do lean towards the "South couldn't afford Lee's style", but more because of the impact that Lee's style had on overall Confederate numbers, not just because it tended to decimate the pool of officers.

But much of the crisis in command came about because the senior Confederate officers were all a bunch of individualist whack jobs-:) I am being a little harsh, but many of the senior Confederate generals were not exactly team players.

Yes, the AoT had a Cleburne, but he never rose above divisional command. And the less said about Bragg the better -:) At the corps level, Breckinridge was arguably drunk at Chattanooga, Polk shouldn't have been in the military (IMO), Hill was competent, but couldn't get along with anyone, Hardee was generally competent, but refused to take over after Bragg, and as a result, the AoT was left with Johnston and then (God forbid) Hood. And even at the division level, you did have some good officers ... but that sometimes depended upon whether they were sober or not -:)

In the ANV, Longstreet and Jackson were competent, albeit Longstreet, once he was no longer under Lee, ended up being both incompetent and a major player of politics. And Jackson, yeah great in the Valley in '62 against the third team, was odd, to say the least, and not big on cooperating with his immediate reports etc. Be very interesting to see what Jackson's rep would have looked like, had he not bought the farm at Chancellorsville. And A P Hill, arguably an excellent division commander, never really measured up to Corps command. Ewell was just plain weird, and after losing a leg and then getting married, appeared to answer primarily to his wife -:)

s.c.
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John R. Price
Wilkes-Barre
PA USA
Posts: 1058
A request for a rough and ready assessment
Posted on: 1/10/2020 7:17:35 PM

Steve,

The fact that you are stuck with Bragg, Loring, Bishop Polk and others proves my point that there was a "crisis in command" from day 1. There weren't enough good officers to meet the initial need and the pool of available men couldn't produce enough to meet future needs.

What good are numbers if the leadership can't put them to good use? With respect I believe in the past you have agreed that the Confederacy lost the war in the West do you really think Bragg is going to do substantially better with more men? Men or officers its the same. There was never enough and the problem is only going to get worse. And with respect the options to choose from are very limited and you can't think out of the box and design your own because you weren't there and you had no chance of taking command. It was Lee, Joe Johnston or Bragg.(OK maybe PTGB and Jackson but I doubt they were in the conversation)

I think and have even been starting to try myself lately that somebody should do a book on the Southern code of honor and how it influenced relationships in the officer corps and between the military and civilian leadership. Specifically Johnston, Bragg and Loring and how the played with others.

Breckinridge drunk at Chattanooga? Do you mean Cheatham at Stones River? Explain this one
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A battle long forgotten by our country in a war never understood by our country. "to satisfy our endless needs and justify our bloody deeds, in the name of destiny and in the name of God"
Steve Clements
Toronto
ON Canada
Posts: 635
A request for a rough and ready assessment
Posted on: 1/11/2020 12:24:29 PM

John,

Quote:
Breckinridge drunk at Chattanooga? Do you mean Cheatham at Stones River? Explain this one


Well, Cheatham was certainly a booze hound-:), but I did mean Breckinridge at Chttanooga. No idea if this is true, but I gather a number of people (including Bragg, who would have been looking for scape-goats) accused Breckinridge of being impaired, for several days in a row, around the time of the battle.

Certainly, Breckinridge's insistence that Missionary Ridge was a good position to hold AFTER Hooker had already taken Lookout Mountain was, IMO, very questionable. Was booze a factor? I have no idea....


Quote:
I think and have even been starting to try myself lately that somebody should do a book on the Southern code of honor and how it influenced relationships in the officer corps and between the military and civilian leadership. Specifically Johnston, Bragg and Loring and how the played with others.


I assume that you have read "Attack and Die" by Grady McWhiney?

s.c.
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Steve Clements
Toronto
ON Canada
Posts: 635
A request for a rough and ready assessment
Posted on: 1/11/2020 12:35:29 PM

John,

Quote:
What good are numbers if the leadership can't put them to good use? With respect I believe in the past you have agreed that the Confederacy lost the war in the West do you really think Bragg is going to do substantially better with more men?


I don't actually remember saying that the war was won in the West...but I do believe it was almost lost in the East, so I guess they amount to the same thing -:)

Well, Bragg did do better with "more men" at Chickamauga, albeit, that was almost by accident (was it Wood's division that was 'accidentally' pulled out of the line, just before Longstreet hit that very position with a solid column of men?), but I get your point. And even after he had won, he almost refused to believe it (Connelly "Autumn of Glory").

I am inclined to agree with John Hayward's point that the Union did a better job of "developing" good generals...I suspect that the stronger class system in the South impaired the mobility of some that should have seen higher rank (many would argue that Cleburne was a much better officer than any of the corps commanders that he served under).

s.c.
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Phil Andrade
London
 UK
Posts: 4304
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Posted on: 1/11/2020 1:09:15 PM

This is really fascinating , and quite challenging....to assess the impact of the societal structure in the South and the “ impaired mobility “.

Would I be talking nonsense if I suggested that there might have been a more effective system of “ devolved command” in the Southern armies ?

Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!" "That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress." Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
John R. Price
Wilkes-Barre
PA USA
Posts: 1058
A request for a rough and ready assessment
Posted on: 1/11/2020 6:00:05 PM

Steve,

No they aren't the same thing.

Bragg didn't do better at Chickamauga.

Cleburne commanded a corps twice and he did a shitty job both times. In two of the battles under Hood Hardee was given command of his and another corps and Cleburne took command of Hardee's Corps with Lowry commanding Cleburne's Division. It had a hell of a lot more to do with the law concerning seniority and politics than the class system of the south. How the hell does Forrest rise to Lt Gen in your system considering the social stigma slave traders have?

Edit "Attack and Die" and what I'm talking about are two different things I believe
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A battle long forgotten by our country in a war never understood by our country. "to satisfy our endless needs and justify our bloody deeds, in the name of destiny and in the name of God"
Steve Clements
Toronto
ON Canada
Posts: 635
A request for a rough and ready assessment
Posted on: 1/12/2020 10:26:10 AM

John,

What were the two battles (around Atlanta) where Cleburne commanded a corps?

s.c.
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Steve Clements
Toronto
ON Canada
Posts: 635
A request for a rough and ready assessment
Posted on: 1/12/2020 10:50:42 AM

John,

Regarding Forrest, I understand that he was quite wealthy before the war. Hardly the typical newly enlisted private-:) In fact, I seem to recall that he used his own money to equip a regiment of cavalry. He didn't stay as a private for very long -:)

My understanding, please correct me, was that although he was a slave trader, he also was a large landowner, and owned/operated a large cotton plantation, and was involved in real estate. And was even involved in Memphis local politics.

In other words, he was used to 'being in command" -:)

s.c.
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John R. Price
Wilkes-Barre
PA USA
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Posted on: 1/13/2020 9:04:02 AM

Steve,

Peachtree Creek and Jonesboro.
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A battle long forgotten by our country in a war never understood by our country. "to satisfy our endless needs and justify our bloody deeds, in the name of destiny and in the name of God"
John R. Price
Wilkes-Barre
PA USA
Posts: 1058
A request for a rough and ready assessment
Posted on: 1/13/2020 9:31:19 AM

Steve,

We are talking two different things. Wealth wasn't the determining factor reputation was and Forrest gained his wealth through slave trading and that would always be a slight on his reputation per the code of honor. In the code reputation was all important. How you achieved wealth was more important than achieving it in many ways.

Plus with respect there were wealthy privates in the CSA from start to finish. There is a good story about one of the arty batteries in the ANVA who went to war with enlisted mess equipment worth more than the cannons in the battery joking about what their rations during the Overland would look like on those plates.

Edit When Jackson ordered the battery to get rid of the personnel baggage and "equipment" in 62 one of the privates tried to see him to resign because a "proper gentleman couldn't ear off of the cheep tin plates the army used." Well as they were sitting around eating their half spoiled bacon and crackers right out of the pan with their hands in 64 somebody would end up asking the private if it wasn't time to resign again.
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A battle long forgotten by our country in a war never understood by our country. "to satisfy our endless needs and justify our bloody deeds, in the name of destiny and in the name of God"
John R. Price
Wilkes-Barre
PA USA
Posts: 1058
A request for a rough and ready assessment
Posted on: 1/13/2020 10:12:07 PM

John,

Just had a chance to check Hardee's and you are right for a stationary line or one that is moving forward in a completely straight line. I believe what I'm saying can be found in Title Four and in Evolutions of the Line. {;us even if we go with the "ideal" you state it isn't giving any more protection.
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A battle long forgotten by our country in a war never understood by our country. "to satisfy our endless needs and justify our bloody deeds, in the name of destiny and in the name of God"
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