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Larry Purtell
Little Meadows
PA USA
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Posts: 1739
Joined: 2004
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Hell comes to NYC.
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Tomorrow, July 12, 1863 starts the troubles in New York City. From the New York Daily Herald.
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"My goal is to live forever. So far, so good.
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Michigan Dave
Muskegon
MI USA
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Posts: 8067
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Hell comes to NYC.
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Larry,
Didn't realize the NYC draft riots happened just after Gettysburg!?
MD
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"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
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Larry Purtell
Little Meadows
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Posts: 1739
Joined: 2004
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Hell comes to NYC.
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Quote: Larry,
Didn't realize the NYC draft riots happened just after Gettysburg!?
MD
The casualty lists and the conscription call days after Gettysburg made for a man made hell. Let me know when I'm done with the press coverage what you think about how many perished during the riot. .
 
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"My goal is to live forever. So far, so good.
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Larry Purtell
Little Meadows
PA USA
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Posts: 1739
Joined: 2004
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Hell comes to NYC.
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"My goal is to live forever. So far, so good.
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Phil Andrade
London
UK
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Posts: 6379
Joined: 2004
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Hell comes to NYC.
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Larry,
There’s been a lot of exaggeration about the riots, with some estimates speaking of two thousand killed, but, in Heaven’s Name, the reality was bad enough and it still makes harrowing reading. The most commonly cited estimate is about 120 killed and 2,000 injured. I’ll check some references.
Regards , Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"
"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."
Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
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Larry Purtell
Little Meadows
PA USA
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Posts: 1739
Joined: 2004
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Hell comes to NYC.
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Quote: Larry,
There’s been a lot of exaggeration about the riots, with some estimates speaking of two thousand killed, but, in Heaven’s Name, the reality was bad enough and it still makes harrowing reading. The most commonly cited estimate is about 120 killed and 2,000 injured. I’ll check some references.
Regards , Phil
I think were gonna find out from these newspaper articles that the authorities played down the number of deaths. Maybe not thousands but many more hundreds than officially accepted.
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"My goal is to live forever. So far, so good.
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Phil Andrade
London
UK
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Posts: 6379
Joined: 2004
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Hell comes to NYC.
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Quote:Quote: Larry,
There’s been a lot of exaggeration about the riots, with some estimates speaking of two thousand killed, but, in Heaven’s Name, the reality was bad enough and it still makes harrowing reading. The most commonly cited estimate is about 120 killed and 2,000 injured. I’ll check some references.
Regards , Phil I think were gonna find out from these newspaper articles that the authorities played down the number of deaths. Maybe not thousands but many more hundreds than officially accepted.
That strikes me as pretty plausible, Larry.
It’s easy to forget how ubiquitous violence was in those days, even without the febrile atmosphere caused by the Civil War. There were other riots in Baltimore and Detroit, too. I’m picking this up as I go, just opening up one or two old books from my shelves.
So many revelations, anecdotes galore. We might grumble now, but thank God we didn’t live in those times !
Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"
"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."
Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
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Larry Purtell
Little Meadows
PA USA
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Posts: 1739
Joined: 2004
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Hell comes to NYC.
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From the New York Times. July 16, 1863.
  
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"My goal is to live forever. So far, so good.
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Larry Purtell
Little Meadows
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Posts: 1739
Joined: 2004
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Hell comes to NYC.
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"My goal is to live forever. So far, so good.
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Larry Purtell
Little Meadows
PA USA
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Posts: 1739
Joined: 2004
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Hell comes to NYC.
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July 17,1863.
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"My goal is to live forever. So far, so good.
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DT509er
Santa Rosa
CA USA
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Posts: 1442
Joined: 2005
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Hell comes to NYC.
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“We are each our own devil, and we make this world our hell." Oscar Wilde
The voracious violence of these riots is astounding! As I read these posts, my mind gets a hold of my thoughts and I vision these beatings and bludgeoning’s, the burnings, the murder, and hangings, seeing the outright worst aspect of man in their unmitigated desire to ravage their homes, businesses, and neighbors with a seemingly unending appetite for it.
It is abhorrent.
Dan
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"American parachutists-devils in baggy pants..." German officer, Italy 1944.
“If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better experiment.” Lord Ernest Rutherford
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Phil Andrade
London
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Posts: 6379
Joined: 2004
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Hell comes to NYC.
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The word “ feral “ comes to mind.
Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"
"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."
Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
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Larry Purtell
Little Meadows
PA USA
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Posts: 1739
Joined: 2004
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Hell comes to NYC.
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"My goal is to live forever. So far, so good.
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morris crumley
Dunwoody
GA USA
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Posts: 3292
Joined: 2007
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Hell comes to NYC.
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It was a strange world in cities like Boston and NY at the time of the Civil war. Most volunteer fire departments were manned by Irish as police and fire was considered too "dangerous work" for most citizens. it was not unusual for more than one fire station to show up at a fire and start a brawl with each other...while the fire burned. Why? Because while they volunteered for the job, they got paid for the fires they put out. ( At one time, Insurance Companies paid for putting out fires at insured structures...but the uninsured were on their own.)
Homes and businesses would have a leather water bucket in the front foyer, with the name of the business or the address painted on it, and would be handed out to firefighting bucket brigades. Afterwards, the buckets would be collected at a church or other designated site to be collected by the owners until the use of fire engines (water pumps) updated the system.
The firemen were made exempt from serving in the State Militia, but under the draft laws, they were not exempted from the draft, as were wealthy who could pay for a substitute to take their place, blacks who were not considered citizens. There was a fear that the dirty, dangerous, and mundane jobs that Irish were forced to take would be handed over to undrafted blacks in their absence in military service.
Many believe that the Black Joke Fire Station, named for a ship of the war of 1812, helped to start the draft riots by disrupting the draft process.
Of course, many Irish did enlist to serve for the pay, the NY Fire Zouaves as an example.
Respects, Morris
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"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."
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morris crumley
Dunwoody
GA USA
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Posts: 3292
Joined: 2007
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Hell comes to NYC.
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Double post.
Respects, Morris
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"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."
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Phil Andrade
London
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Posts: 6379
Joined: 2004
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Hell comes to NYC.
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Were some firemen notorious for extortion, bribery and downright theft ?
Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"
"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."
Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
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DT509er
Santa Rosa
CA USA
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Posts: 1442
Joined: 2005
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Hell comes to NYC.
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Quote: The word “ feral “ comes to mind.
Regards, Phil
Agree!
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"American parachutists-devils in baggy pants..." German officer, Italy 1944.
“If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better experiment.” Lord Ernest Rutherford
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morris crumley
Dunwoody
GA USA
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Posts: 3292
Joined: 2007
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Hell comes to NYC.
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Quote: Were some firemen notorious for extortion, bribery and downright theft ?
Regards, Phil
Phil, in Tammany Hall, New York City...there really wasn`t much of government...or it`s mechanization's...that were not corrupt, bribed, extorted, or rife with thievery. The system was built on it!
Respects, Morris
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"You are a $70, red-wool, pure quill military genius, or the biggest damn fool in northern Mexico."
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Phil Andrade
London
UK
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Posts: 6379
Joined: 2004
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Hell comes to NYC.
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There’s a horrible irony to this episode.
By and large, compared with other civil wars, the American Civil War was conducted with a significant regard for upholding standards of decency and protocol. This is not to downplay the sheer bloodiness of the battles, or the ferocious intensity of the war, and the enormous loss of life.
This rioting in NYC, however, put the barbarity and atrocity latent in mankind to the fore. The worst human attributes were displayed on the home front, not the regular battlefield.
Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"
"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."
Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
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Larry Purtell
Little Meadows
PA USA
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Posts: 1739
Joined: 2004
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Hell comes to NYC.
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"My goal is to live forever. So far, so good.
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DT509er
Santa Rosa
CA USA
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Posts: 1442
Joined: 2005
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Hell comes to NYC.
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Quote: There’s a horrible irony to this episode.
By and large, compared with other civil wars, the American Civil War was conducted with a significant regard for upholding standards of decency and protocol. This is not to downplay the sheer bloodiness of the battles, or the ferocious intensity of the war, and the enormous loss of life.
This rioting in NYC, however, put the barbarity and atrocity latent in mankind to the fore. The worst human attributes were displayed on the home front, not the regular battlefield.
Regards, Phil
Well said Phil.
One of the things I placed a deep visual too in my mind, is the use of canister in the streets. The havoc this caused could only be matched by the; forgive me for this phrase, “shock and awe” that these shots had. I recall reading of a battle or two in the Napoleonic Wars where canister was used similar to the riots ripping down a town street/avenue and absolutely wrecking all in front of it. That the soldiers reeled from this is quite understandable yet many a soldier became accustomed to seeing and/or being on the receiving end of such cannonades but a civilian, far removed from the battle front. It must have been dumbfounding if one survived on those streets of NYC, let alone the battlefields.
Dan
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"American parachutists-devils in baggy pants..." German officer, Italy 1944.
“If your experiment needs statistics, you ought to have done a better experiment.” Lord Ernest Rutherford
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Phil Andrade
London
UK
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Posts: 6379
Joined: 2004
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Hell comes to NYC.
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An important feature of the history of the American Civil War is its tenure of essential decency.
This, I fear, might be a subjective take on my part: it’s easy to be seduced by the old tropes of Grant and Lee conducting themselves in exemplary fashion at Appomattox; there’s a romantic flavour to so much of the narrative. It troubles me more that we might be overlooking horrific attributes by focusing on “ noble “ aspects of the war. Churchill was a proponent of this view, describing the war as the “ noblest” of conflicts.
As a small boy in the centennial of the war, I was an avid enthusiast for this depiction : I can still read a book about Gettysburg and sleep well afterwards.
Not so with stories from other wars: just a whiff of the Russian Civil War’s enough to harrow the imagination.
Now, reflecting on anecdotes about the mob trying to douse black children with kerosene and set them on fire, I’m aware that there’s a very dark place in this most “ noble “ of wars.
Regards, Phil
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"Egad, sir, I do not know whether you will die on the gallows or of the pox!"
"That will depend, my Lord, on whether I embrace your principles or your mistress."
Earl of Sandwich and John Wilkes
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