Happy Thanksgiving!  

MILITARY HISTORY ONLINE

User:    Password:

 
General History
Page 2 of 2 (Page:  1    2  )
Author
Message
George
Centre Hastings
ON Canada
Posts: 10971
Why Study History?
Posted on: 4/30/2020 9:01:04 PM

Quote:
A part of me understands where you are coming from, having been there a few times over past dozen+ years and seen and responded to often. While you may be the Oldest and Biggest Fish in this Small Pond; I've been an equal-to-bigger Fish in a Larger Pond, dwarfing this one ten to PPPPLus fold, et. !!!!!


And under what circumstances did you leave this larger pond? Did people get tired of the lack of clarity in your posts and your penchant for tossing spaghetti at the wall? Did they tire of your aggressive posture?

Since your arrival you have insulted a number of people and it seems that that was part of the plan what with the admission of a "baiting" technique to suss out the competition; a most unfortunate choice of behaviour in debut.

I am not your enemy. Nor do I wish to be a competitor. Truthfully I am having trouble following your train of thought on most of your posts and I cannot determine whether you actually wish to engage in conversation with anyone here.



----------------------------------
G David Bock
Lynden
WA USA
Posts: 337
Why Study History?
Posted on: 5/1/2020 4:48:12 PM

Yesterday's efforts were filled with too many distractions and perhaps one two many during cocktail hour, so running on caffeine perhaps a more coherent effort now ...

Quote:
Quote:
Within this context, Islam presents a disturbing variation as if one studies it's history, text, and dogma there are two major tenants increasingly in clash with our modern times;
1) Like many religions, it claims the only true path to rewards in the afterlife, HOWEVER, it's version of Paradise/Heaven is one of multiple levels and the higher levels can only be attained by those believers(Muslims) whom are Holy Warriors engaged in Holy War(Jihad).
2) Above encouraged by one of Mohammad's last instructions that his followers were to fight all humankind until everyone has embraced Islam.
Sounds like a prescription for a "Forever War" to me.


Quote:
G. David Bock, perhaps you could provide references, scholarly references, that confirm that the highest level of heaven (Jannah??sp) is reserved for jihadists.


George, IIRC, the highest level is reserved for Allah's Chosen Prophet, Mohammed. The lowest level would be for the "peaceful" Muslims (whom don't perform Jihad), levels in-between go to the Holy Warriors (Mujahedin) whom have engaged in Holy War (Jihad) and the more effective, deadly and destructive they were, the higher the go up the levels (with greater conditions and rewards).

For a start, one could go through the 1,000+ posts of this thread I started nearly 13 years ago. Not everything lasts on the Internet so some of the links may no longer operate.
Islam - Jihad - GWOT
https://forums.armchairgeneral.com/forum/current-events/south-asia-and-world-terrorism/41792-islam-jihad-gwot
[Read More]

With about 197,880+ views it has been a bit popular. As time and energy allow, I'll like pull some material from there for copy-paste here, but I'd encourage any with objective desire to find information to go through this thread. Many others have contributed, many discussions/debates are there (most of the points/items you raise in this post I'm responding to have already been dealt with there )

Another good source (and they provide free emailed articles list/sign-up), focused mostly on current events, but also have historical reference content is;
Middle East Forum
https://www.meforum.org/
[Read More]

And especially their "Islamist Watch" sub-section
https://www.meforum.org/islamist-watch
[Read More]

Quote:
Is there any reference to levels of heaven or the use of the word "heavens" in the plural in the Christian bibles? Yes.
In the Roman Catholic faith, is the reference to a state of existence called purgatory, also not a reference to levels, post death.


There's also Limbo, and these are more like realms between Earth and Heaven than "levels" as would apply in Islam.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Purgatory
[Read More]
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Limbo
[Read More]

Quote:
An exploration of what jihad actually means in Islam may be worthwhile, as well.


This is where the Left-Wing "Liberals" (LWL) like to inject the "small" Jihad of personal struggle to improve one's self, usually to distract from "Great" Jihad which is the global conflict(war) and conquests to covert all of humanity to Islam, as commanded by Mohammed and referenced in the Haddith. Also been there and done that in the thread presented above;
Islam - Jihad - GWOT
https://forums.armchairgeneral.com/forum/current-events/south-asia-and-world-terrorism/41792-islam-jihad-gwot
[Read More]

Quote:
Radical Muslims who have committed violent acts and claim to be acting as jihadis have been condemned by Muslim clerics and scholars. They claim that those violent people are misrepresenting the scholarly sources that they cite to defend their violent actions or are looking for loopholes to justify violent behaviour. Bin Laden did just that when he said that targeting US civilians was justified because the US had targeted Muslim civilians first.


Actually, what LWL like to refer to as "radical Muslims" are more correctly Fundamentalist Muslims taking and applying Islamic scriptures literally. And only condemned by some Muslim clerics while supported and encouraged by many others. Unfortunately, Islam is a religion structured via scripture/dogma to encourage violence, for a "good cause" ~ converting others to Islam and to spread the size, scope, and power of the Dar al Islam;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Divisions_of_the_world_in_Islam#Dar_al-Islam
[Read More]

... via war and conquest upon the Dar al Harb, see above link and also;
https://wikiislam.net/wiki/Dar_al-Harb
[Read More]

As for Bin Laden, the USA did not intentionally target Muslim civilians (first); that would be more taqiyya on his part;
https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/pages/quran/taqiyya.aspx
[Read More]
Also:
How Taqiyya Alters Islam's Rules of War Defeating Jihadist Terrorism
https://www.meforum.org/2538/taqiyya-islam-rules-of-war
[Read More]

BTW, the text/link of OBL's "Letter to the American People" stating his "reasons" for attack can also be found in that 1,000+ posts thread I provided link to above.

Quote:
Are there citations in the Christian Bible that incite Christians to violence against non-believers? I believe so.
Polytheists were despised and if believers came upon one, they were to, "bring that man or woman to the gates of the city ... and stone them with stones until they die." (Deuteronomy)
In another section, a comment about believers says, "Blessed is he who seizes your infants and dashes them against the rocks." (in reference to polytheists) (Psalms)


In that case your "believe" is likely in error or result of some other disinformation or disability. But this is a position, a canard, often presented by LWLs. Possible stems from confusion regards Old Testament verses New Testament.

Old Testament is the history of the Jews, and their ancestry, especially from Abraham onward (and some mangled history of the World) along with instructions from Yahweh on how they should live and practice their religion, as well as commands to retain their cultural/ethnic integrity and occupy a small chunk of land he wanted them on. No commands to make the rest of humankind Jewish or to spread over and conquer the globe.

New Testament was the preachings of Jesus Christ and much of his message was an abrogation, correction of instructions in the Old Testament. My understanding is that Christians are to adhere to the NT, especially where it super-cedes the OT. I don't recall anything in the NT where JC told his followers to engage in violence, especially on behalf of spreading his message (religion). If you have a quote from the NT to provide/cite, please do so.

Quote:
Christians have found a way to reconcile their belief in peaceful co-existence with these statements in their holy books. I believe that the millions who worship in the Islamic faith and also live in peace have come to some sort of reconciliation with similar types of instruction in the Koran.


Agreed. For the most part Christians have done that, but we know as historians that at times some (flavors of) Christians have mis-stated or distorted either OT and/or NT to "justify" their violence. And fortunately, most Muslims have likewise opted for basic peaceful human nature over some of what Islamic scripture says they should do. However they become the apostates and "infidels" at top of the target lists of the Fundamentalists and Jihadists. BTW, try to avoid the "trap" of mixing focus on Islamic scripture and dogma, especially negative type, as also transferring to followers, Muslims. As with most all religions, the scripture is non-personal focus when being assessed, followers/believers should be a separate focus.

Quote:
So while the Koran says that Muslims must "fight the infidels", often ignored is the lines that follow that say, "If any of the unbelievers asks you for sanctuary, then take them into your houses so that they might hear the word of God and then let them go on their way,".


Here's another challenge when dealing with Koran, or other Islamic scripture, the Koran is not structured in chronological order and hence can be confusing and contradictory. Mohammed went through changes in his ministry, starting out with the sort of "peace and love"message like JC, but in wake of physical attacks upon him and his followers He then included permission from Allah to fight in defense, and finally in his last few years the message changed to aggressive conflict(Jihad) to spread the word and rule of Allah. These final years are when He carried a sword, lead armies into battle and conquest and set the pattern for merging leader of Religion and State in the "office" of the Caliphate/Calif.

Quote:
As well, some scholars remind us that the infidels actually referred specifically to the Meccans who kicked Mohammed out and they died long ago.


A brief and limited application. The term usage was expanded as Mohammed's message changed, as mentioned above.

Quote:
We cannot ignore the misinterpretation of the teachings of Mohammed or the Koran, by radicals. There are radical Christians that scare the hell out of me too.


Again, what some like the LWL and MSM would call "radicals", those "radicals" consider themselves to be True-Believers ~ Fundamentalists. The peaceful Muslims whom decline to engage Jihad, etc. are the "radicals"- they have refused the full Word of Allah.

As for "radical Christians" since they aren't crashing airliners full of unwilling passengers into tall buildings, nor slitting throats and decapitating on TV while chanting "Allah-al Akabar" they don't "scare the hell out of me" anywhere near as much as the Islamic Jihadists.

Quote:
Look, I am not a religious scholar but I sense that this could easily turn into another anti-Islam thread and that concerns me. But if we could have a good discussion about the world's great religions without a view to condemn, it would be interesting.

Cheers,

George


First, you would seem to be the one trying to steer in such a direction by picking out a paragraph of my post to be subject of this long one focused on a religion.

Second: Most wars have a religious conflicts component, so study of military history would suggest that applying Sun Tzu's adage of knowing one's enemy would include their spiritual/religious beliefs and motivations. Especially since such sometimes result in different victory terms per combatant side.

Third: Contrary to many "academic" attitudes, religions are not all so similar as to be considered just apples of different colors and flavors. To expand the metaphor, they tend to be a basket of very mixed fruits.

Consider - Buddhism; "The Buddha" never claimed to be a deity,only presented an idea on how one should live. Only later would his followers elevate him to Deity and start a "religion".

Or consider the Aztec religion with it's foundation of human sacrifice - cutting the heart out of a living victim to offer to the Sun. Not sure how to objectively and honestly discuss this religion without some degree of condemn. BTW, there is a bit of revitalize of this in form of MeCHA/Atlan movement and their agenda of ReConquista here on USA campuses.

Or take the case of the Nationalist Socialist German Worker's Party = NSDAP = Nazis: (some copy paste from another thread here)

The NAZI movement in Germany, a German 'flavored' version of Madam Blavatsky's Theosophical Movement, ala Thule and Vril Socirty interpretations, shows a metaphysical/quasi-religious roots of beliefs and actions similar to Islam in application towards the rest of the world. ...

The Nazi movement in Germany of the 1920-1940's was a "true belief" system that appeared as a political movement when the Nazis came to power in 1933, but it had an ideology that was quasi-religious in it's origins in the beliefs/concepts of the Vril and Thule Societies in Germany in the decades prior. Though these would be considered meta-physical or "occult" mysticism by many, they were rooted in ages old cultural concepts held as "truth" by many Germans, hence the ready embrace of many Germans to the Nazi agenda. To the world outside of Germany, largely ignorant of the cultural beliefs the Nazi 'religion' was based upon, the Nazi ideology would appear as fake~unrealistic and illogical in an objective sense, but this view didn't stem the growth of the Nazi movement nor it's later political and global agenda and actions. A lack of knowledge and appreciation of the Nazi ideology tended to blind many in the West when they tried to negotiate and deal with "the Nazis" hence the West misjudged Germany's intentions and failed to react, let alone pro-act, to avoid what became a horrendous global conflict.
...............................

Skol

Dave
----------------------------------
TANSTAAFL - There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
George
Centre Hastings
ON Canada
Posts: 10971
Why Study History?
Posted on: 5/1/2020 8:50:24 PM

David, my antennae are raised when posters begin to use acronyms like MSM and LWL (redundant don't you think). These are the tactics that promote division. Have you assumed that everyone on this forum has conservative views?
It is quite likely that we have little in common. Here is why:

I suspect that you have some radical views that I would characterize as dangerous. I say that because you referred me to a site that has been criticized for its promotion of hatred toward Muslims. It has even published the names of scholars who have been critical of US foreign policy in the Middle East in order to promote attacks against them. And that crazy man that killed so many people in Norway a few years ago, cited this web site in his manifesto.

I refer to the Middle East Forum which it seems is quite a hate filled source particularly against Muslims and it is clearly pro-Israel. I would call some of what I read, hate speech.

For those who would like to read an opposing view of Middle East Forum, I offer this:

[Read More]

You also referred us to the Religion of Peace forum. Is this it?

[Read More]

Okay, I'm getting a pretty good read and I don't think that I like what I'm reading. This is radical stuff and too many violent extremists are adherents to sites like these.

----------------------------------
G David Bock
Lynden
WA USA
Posts: 337
Why Study History?
Posted on: 5/2/2020 3:15:38 PM

Quote:
David, my antennae are raised when posters begin to use acronyms like MSM and LWL (redundant don't you think).


'Raised antennae' ??? I thought there might be something un-human about you.
On a military historu forum you are protesting the use of acronyms??? - Or is just the choice presented?
Ironic more than redundant I'd say, and what harm in taking some typing shortcuts ("RCN" ring a bell?)???
If it's a case of confusion of meaning on your part, "MSM" usually stands for Main Stream Media and has been in use on many forums and in articles for "years" now. & "LWL" was explained in my post here earlier, - Left-Wing (pseudo)Liberal.

Quote:
These are the tactics that promote division.


Writing shortcuts do that? Another insight into mental delusions it might seem, but please explain fuller.

Quote:
Have you assumed that everyone on this forum has conservative views?


No. And again at a lost to understand another mental deviation here in what you ask.
Do you assume that everyone here has "liberal" views or should conform to your views and positions?

Quote:
It is quite likely that we have little in common. Here is why:


I knew that about the second time I dealt with you on this forum. Nothing new and rather common on many forums. Meanwhile, I see we'll have joy of more of your focus upon poster rather than post.

Quote:
I suspect that you have some radical views that I would characterize as dangerous.


Not surprised as those of the LWL always consider opposition to their views as "dangerous". Fair balance here as since you tick most of the boxes as being LWL, and socialist/communist as well most likely, I consider you holding some radical views that I would consider "dangerous", especially in a context like that presented in Ayn Rand's "Atlas Shrugged" (makers versus takers).

Quote:
I say that because you referred me to a site that has been criticized for its promotion of hatred toward Muslims. It has even published the names of scholars who have been critical of US foreign policy in the Middle East in order to promote attacks against them.


Actually, I was referring anyone reading, especially if they have an open and objective mind and interested in a more truthful source that exposes Islamists and Jihadists for what they are. MEF is "criticized" by those, mostly LWLs, whom are apologists for and enablers of Islamic Jihad terrorism and as we see so often, any opposition to the views and positions of the LWL is "hatred"~"hate speech".

"scholars who have been critical of US foreign policy in the Middle East" have published their own names via what they publish and presenting opposing views/counter-arguements usually would not be "attacks" of a criminal/violent type. Although, as already pointed out, any opposition to or disagrement with the agenda of the LWL and their Islamic Jihad allies will be considered "attacks".

Quote:
And that crazy man that killed so many people in Norway a few years ago, cited this web site in his manifesto.


A single example of similar but opposite to tens of thousands whom have cited Muhammad and the Koran in their "manifestos" justifying their murders, butcheries, and destruction in name of Islamic Jihad. See Osama bin Laden's "letter to America" as an example;
https://www.theguardian.com/world/2002/nov/24/theobserver
[Read More]

Quote:
I refer to the Middle East Forum which it seems is quite a hate filled source particularly against Muslims and it is clearly pro-Israel. I would call some of what I read, hate speech.


Disapproves of Islamist Jihad, in place of "hate filled" and "Muslims" (some of the contributors are Muslim), and "pro-Israel" is frequent coded term from the LWL for "the Jews" expressing something too similar to neo-Nazi views, along with support of Islamic Jihad agenda. Of course, as pointed out, anything opposing the views and propaganda of the LWL is seen by them as "hate speech".

Quote:
For those who would like to read an opposing view of Middle East Forum, I offer this:

[Read More]


So much opposing as to qualify as supportive and enabling towards Islamic Jihad and the suppression of basic rights and freedoms common to Islamic dogma and doctrine. A classic LWL propaganda source.

Quote:
You also referred us to the Religion of Peace forum. Is this it?

[Read More]

Okay, I'm getting a pretty good read and I don't think that I like what I'm reading. This is radical stuff and too many violent extremists are adherents to sites like these.


Understandable since you are supportive of the tens of thousands of violent extremists adherents supporting the parts of Islam and Jihad friendly sites that allow for "radical stuff" like;
Support of slavery
Suppression of women and their rights
Suppression of non-Muslims via second-class citizen status and Jizya
[Read More]
FGM -Female Genital Mutilation
Global Jihad to expand the Dar al-Islam
Etc., etc., etc.

Evil and it supporters and adherents seldom "like" Truth - being exposed for what such really is.











----------------------------------
TANSTAAFL - There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
George
Centre Hastings
ON Canada
Posts: 10971
Why Study History?
Posted on: 5/2/2020 3:40:03 PM

You've been at this hate business for a long time Mr. Bock. You also referred us to the Armchair General website and I took the time to look at as many of your posts as I could stomach.

You spent years on that site, sowing the seeds of hatred. There is a lot of cut and paste on your posts and long, long, long sequences of windy posts all dealing with painting a picture of Muslims as a monolithic bloc of evil. You were fond of referring to the works of others who think as you do and you spiced it up with essays by the dregs of journalism like Glenn Beck and Anne Coulter.

Your penchant for multiple posts in sequence has been evident here, since your arrival. Interesting tactic. Before anyone can comment or criticize, you are off on another post. Keep talking and they won't have time to think. Is that it?

It is odd that you would refer us to Armchair General and your Islamophobic efforts because I noted that under your name is the word "banned". Would you care to tell me why you were banned and whether it had to do with your hate filled messages?

For others who may have missed it, this is the site that Mr. Bock directed us toward.

[Read More]

Thanks for this response. I was suspicious of your motives from your original posts. Your admission that you were "baiting" us for reasons not well explained was a tell.

I sense by your quick retorts that you have either been taught or have learned the buzz words whenever you have been challenged. And so you invent an enemy in the LWL, whatever that is, and accuse them of propaganda. And you accuse them and me of being a communist which is a tired but useful accusation in America, for nativists and violent white supremacists.

I sincerely hope that you have picked the wrong forum for spreading this equine waste.
----------------------------------
scoucer
Berlin
 Germany
Posts: 2778
Why Study History?
Posted on: 5/2/2020 5:51:28 PM

David,

Can we stick to cooking ? LOL

I too find this a very dangerous road to go down. I find these sites offensive. This is an "international" forum. I also do not like being called a Left-wing (pseudo) liberal, especially from people who do not have a clue about marxism ( for my service in West Berlin, it was essential knowledge for when I had dealings with the Soviets, East German, Czech and Polish militaries and gouvernments), just as you would not like being called a right-wing nutjob.

I do not care how other websites are.

On this one there are people I call friends who have completely different political viewpoints as myself and each is entitled to them. We can disagree but I respect each one of them for the fine people that they are that I have come to know. I respect them for their knowledge, their experience, their service and that they are willing to share it with each other. The key word on this forum is respect. If you want to "learn" history whatever your fields of interest are, this is the place to do it. Ask questions, there will usually be someone willing to answer. The collective knowledge on this forum is unbelievable. You are welcome to share.

Trevor

----------------------------------
`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.
Brian Grafton
Victoria
BC Canada
Posts: 3203
Why Study History?
Posted on: 5/3/2020 8:10:58 PM

Trevor, well said indeed. Many of us are on MHO because of the differences between it and other websites.

Thanks for saying what should not have to be said.

Brian G
----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
G David Bock
Lynden
WA USA
Posts: 337
Why Study History?
Posted on: 5/14/2020 9:25:15 PM

Quote:
You've been at this hate business for a long time Mr. Bock. You also referred us to the Armchair General website and I took the time to look at as many of your posts as I could stomach.


As covered already, those leaning strongly to the Left side of ideology/politics tend to view any opposition to their views as "hate", so your response of this sort is to be expected. Sort of classic propaganda device. FWIW, I could play the same card and say that I find the positions presented by the Left Wing "Fanatics" (such as the AntiFa sorts) to be even stronger in the "hate business". Sorry you can't stomach truth.

Quote:
You spent years on that site, sowing the seeds of hatred.

Other side of the coin you seem to have spent years at this site sowing your Left-Wing seeds of hate; guess it's tit for tat.

Quote:
There is a lot of cut and paste on your posts and long, long, long sequences of windy posts all dealing with painting a picture of Muslims as a monolithic bloc of evil.


Actually, it's Fundamentalists Islamic Jihadists to whom the "monolithic bloc of Evil" would apply. As well as their supporters and enablers. The apostate Muslims whom don't practice Jihad I have no issue with.

Quote:
You were fond of referring to the works of others who think as you do and you spiced it up with essays by the dregs of journalism like Glenn Beck and Anne Coulter.

Likewise those whom ride the Left side of the divide such as you do similar with your own biased sources. Beck and Coulter are more comentators than journalists, but suitable counterpoints to the Leftist fanatics like say Jon Stewart or Steven Colbert (as a pair that come ready to mind. Could likely find a couple other more appropriate should I want to.)

Quote:
Your penchant for multiple posts in sequence has been evident here, since your arrival. Interesting tactic. Before anyone can comment or criticize, you are off on another post. Keep talking and they won't have time to think. Is that it?


It's possible you have this problem with thinking or replying, but there is the "quote" function that lets one return later should they be inclined, as we see now with my response here over a week later.

Quote:
It is odd that you would refer us to Armchair General and your Islamophobic efforts because I noted that under your name is the word "banned". Would you care to tell me why you were banned and whether it had to do with your hate filled messages?


Well it would seem this prying into personal matters is another of those baited/test techniques common to you Left-Wing Fanatics, but since you haven't let it rest ....

ArmChair General(ACG) Forums is a bit more moderated and constrained in some ways than here at MHO. Moderators for the most part are unpaid volunteers and some are more active than others, and sometimes have difficulty setting their personal prejudices aside to administer objectively. Plus there are rules of conduct which aren't always clear or precise and hence another opportunity for subjective applications. One of those areas is the issue of addressing the post and not the poster, and lately this come into application. When using the "quote" function there, it can be rather easy to slide into the appearance of addressing the poster rather than there post that one may be responding to.

Sometimes warnings are given, mostly public on the thread involved, sometimes via private messages. But if the moderator thinks prior warnings or incidents are not being in effect, than a "time out"/"unplanned vacation", may be put into effect, a "ban" on posting privileges. Could be for a day or two, or week or two, or up to a month or two. On rare occasions it has been permanent, but this usually is for a more serious form of breach of RoC. In my case, politics involving the removal of a previous misapplied "ban" got that moderator in a snit to find any excuse to zing me again, so I'm on vacation till about the end of May.

Now it doesn't cost anything to join and you George, or anyone here could do so, and would find a much larger range of sub-forums, threads, and topics there than here. However, in your case George, what Ive seen of your bullying and chip on shoulder actions towards others, not just myself, were you to engage your frequent personal attacks and insults there like you do here you might get something like this;
Stop sniping at each other.
Address the post, not the poster.
Next post that ignores this direction will be removed and further action will be taken.
Very tired of having to constantly remind posters who should know better about this concept.
Thank you
ACG Staff
(May 4,2020)

Knowing you and your 'profile' better as I do now, that likely wouldn't be enough and you would be one of these;
Two posts by Massena and TactiKillJ were removed for personal attacks after a warning not to do so.
Further action taken
Thank you
ACG Staff
later on 04May20

Those two were out for about a week.

Quote:
For others who may have missed it, this is the site that Mr. Bock directed us toward.

[Read More]


Actually that was a subject/topic thread on the larger forum;
https://forums.armchairgeneral.com/
[Read More]

Quote:
Thanks for this response. I was suspicious of your motives from your original posts. Your admission that you were "baiting" us for reasons not well explained was a tell.


Fair enough, I was suspicious of you crude probings and baitings as well. Then came the unwarranted name calling and insults which pretty much confirmed what you are.

By your standards you want to charge me as an Islamophobe (a silly and inaccurate made up term of the LW), but if we apply those standards to you and some of your recent posts/responses you are guilty of being a Chrisitanophobe and Jewishophobe.
Guess we balance each other out.

Quote:
I sense by your quick retorts that you have either been taught or have learned the buzz words whenever you have been challenged.

Could say the same with regard to you, in addition, your sort of dreg is something I've encountered often before.

Quote:
And so you invent an enemy in the LWL, whatever that is, and accuse them of propaganda.


Actually LW for Left Wing has been around for sometimes and such are often equated with so-called "Liberals". Nothing made-up, just reused. Though to be honest, most real "liberals" aren't Left Wing and most Left Wingers are far from liberal, being mostly fanatic fascists.

Quote:
And you accuse them and me of being a communist which is a tired but useful accusation in America, for nativists and violent white supremacists.


Few Left-Wingers are Free enterprise Capitalist and Conservatives, so the socialist/communist tag fits. Most Communist leaders have acknowledged that socialism is an essential step on the path towards communism and both systems are essentially the same: Take from those whom produce and give to those whom don't. Concept and system has been around a long time now and only tired part of it is how many remain fool and sucker for the concept/ideology. And of course you have to fit the profile(MO) throwing in this bit of tired doggerel and propaganda: "nativists and violent white supremacists."

Quote:
I sincerely hope that you have picked the wrong forum for spreading this equine waste.


Because you don't want any opposition to your long term spreading of your equine waste.
----------------------------------
TANSTAAFL - There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
G David Bock
Lynden
WA USA
Posts: 337
Why Study History?
Posted on: 5/14/2020 9:55:33 PM

Quote:
David,

Can we stick to cooking ? LOL

I too find this a very dangerous road to go down. I find these sites offensive. This is an "international" forum. I also do not like being called a Left-wing (pseudo) liberal, especially from people who do not have a clue about marxism ( for my service in West Berlin, it was essential knowledge for when I had dealings with the Soviets, East German, Czech and Polish militaries and gouvernments), just as you would not like being called a right-wing nutjob.

I do not care how other websites are.

On this one there are people I call friends who have completely different political viewpoints as myself and each is entitled to them. We can disagree but I respect each one of them for the fine people that they are that I have come to know. I respect them for their knowledge, their experience, their service and that they are willing to share it with each other. The key word on this forum is respect. If you want to "learn" history whatever your fields of interest are, this is the place to do it. Ask questions, there will usually be someone willing to answer. The collective knowledge on this forum is unbelievable. You are welcome to share.

Trevor


Trevor,

I don't recall tagging you as a Left-Wing (pseudo) Liberal so is this a case of the shoe fitting by your choice?
Again, flip side of the coin is that those of us among the conservative (Robert A. Heinlein style BTW) and Right-wing side of the ideological fence also can find what we encounter from the Left to be dangerous and offensive, but must be addressed and confronted when it tries to force its way upon others.

As for "clues about Marxism";
1) you don't know me so be careful how you judge ... one doesn't have to believe in and support Marxism to know it.
2) My neighbor on my West side is from Poland. Zdzislaw is very active in Solidarity back in the 1980s and as a consequence he was a "guest" of the KGB for several months. When they released him, they advised he get his stuff together and get out of the country if he didn't want to be a "guest" again in a few months, so he did such. Came to the USA. Needless to say, he and his family have no fond thoughts or comments regarding Marxists and socialism/communism (or those here in the USA whom advocate for such).
3) An associate of mine, Lt. Col Jim McKinney(ret.)as shown in the next link(s) is former US Army Intel and worked a lot with defecting communist high rank officers as well as training military units of former communist nations. He has many interesting stories about the injustices and atrocities of living under socialist/communism as one might expect.
COVID-19, Aluminum, and National Security: Will China Destroy a Critical US Industry?
Commentary

The COVID-19 pandemic and subsequent global economic shutdown have had dramatic consequences for numerous industries.

The shutdown has forced London Metal Exchange (LME) prices for aluminum below sustainable levels for U.S.-based producers.

Two U.S. aluminum smelters were considered for closure because of low LME prices prior to the virus outbreak, primarily due to Chinese overproduction and energy subsidies.

With the COVID-19 crisis, the remaining U.S. production capacity can’t economically compete, placing access to an essential metal for U.S. industry, and U.S. sovereignty, at risk.

As the People’s Republic of China (PRC) dominates world aluminum production, U.S. domestic aluminum capacity is in peril. The United States has seven aluminum smelters—the PRC has more than 140. The U.S. facilities are financially at risk without significant assistance. A loss of U.S. aluminum manufacturing would be a direct threat to U.S. national security and economic independence.
...
Lt. Col. James McKinney is a retired U.S. Army foreign area officer with more than 30 years of service in strategic, tactical, and special operations assignments around the globe. He served as a senior defense official and defense attaché, the deputy chief of combating terrorism for U.S. Pacific Command, the security assistance officer for U.S. embassies in Albania and the Republic of Georgia, and a political-military adviser to the commander of U.S. Army Central in the Middle East. He’s now a consultant, and serves on the board of Saturna Capital.
https://www.theepochtimes.com/covid-19-aluminum-and-u-s-national-security-will-china-destroy-a-critical-u-s-industry_3294016.html
[Read More]

The Impact of Soleimani’s Death

Commentary

The U.S. strike on Iranian Maj. Gen. Qassem Soleimani was one of the most significant events in the Middle East in nearly 70 years.

The U.S. “Reaper” drone strike at the Baghdad Airport on Jan. 3 that killed Soleimani was precise, rapid, and without civilian casualties. Even though it has turned the region upside down in the short term, its strategic impact will undermine the Iranian regime in the long term.

Soleimani wasn’t the second-most powerful man in Iran; he was the most powerful individual in all of the Middle East. He directed the Iranian Revolutionary Guard Corps’ (IRGC) Quds Force, the Iranian special operations and intelligence force. The IRGC protects the Iranian theocracy; the Quds Force spreads its influence. Soleimani was the man who kept the religious rulers in power.

The Quds Force trained, funded, and directed Hezbollah, Houthi rebels in Yemen, numerous militias in Iraq, Syria, Sudan, and Libya, as well as Lebanese and Palestinian paramilitary formations. They have placed special forces, equipment, and human intelligence operatives throughout the world.

Soleimani’s personality tied together this collage of terrorists. His mission was to expand Iranian influence and protect the Islamic Revolution through violence, using guns, threats, money, loyalty, and fear to achieve his goals. He was the architect for suppressing the recent civil uprisings in Iran, killing an estimated 1,500 protesters.
...
https://www.theepochtimes.com/the-impact-of-soleimanis-death_3201535.html
[Read More]

Just some of my sources/resources.

You can throw "nutjob" on the end of Right-Wing if I can throw on Fanatic or Fascist to Left -Wing

Too bad about not wanting to know about other Forums(websites), that is one way to expand what one could know and learn. Speaking of learning, this forum was looking a bit dead when I dropped by few weeks ago and still looking about to see what there is to know, learn here that I haven't found other places. Will give it a chance, but so far looking like I've been the one to bring some fresh ideas, sources, learning and corrections here. We'll see. I also may have made a friend or two so far. Certainly found a couple/few whom were looking for fresh ones to be enemies with.
----------------------------------
TANSTAAFL - There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
George
Centre Hastings
ON Canada
Posts: 10971
Why Study History?
Posted on: 5/15/2020 8:04:20 AM

Quote:
Too bad about not wanting to know about other Forums(websites), that is one way to expand what one could know and learn. Speaking of learning, this forum was looking a bit dead when I dropped by few weeks ago and still looking about to see what there is to know, learn here that I haven't found other places. Will give it a chance, but so far looking like I've been the one to bring some fresh ideas, sources, learning and corrections here. We'll see. I also may have made a friend or two so far. Certainly found a couple/few whom were looking for fresh ones to be enemies with.


Quote:
So I'm on a learning curve here of sorts and "tests" (or baited traps if you prefer) are one device to help get to know whom you all are and what I'm dealing with.
. (Bock, April 28)

So clearly I and perhaps others are not meeting your standards but please tell me whether this is another "baited trap".

So you are "giving it a chance"?? I suspect that you do not see how condescending that phrase is.

Quote:
This is just an internet Forum and no Large Deal ....
. (Bock, April 28)

So it seems that your current assessment of this site is consistent with your initial observations.

Quote:
While you may be the Oldest and Biggest Fish in this Small Pond; I've been an equal-to-bigger Fish in a Larger Pond, dwarfing this one ten to PPPPLus fold, et. !!!!!
. (Bock, directed to George on April 30)

I suspect that your "baiting" process was one that allowed you to identify targets. Tell me, do you see a discussion forum as a competition of sorts, one in which your goal is to vilify or abase those who disagree with you? I think that you came in here, all gangbusters, prepared to show everyone here that you were a force to be reckoned with. I'm not sure why but you were aggressive with anyone that didn't praise your initial offerings. And I wasn't the first person to whom you made unnecessarily aggressive remarks to a less than fulsome acceptance of one of your posts. (See your initial foray into this thread)

So I am not sure why you are staying if you find this forum so wanting. But there is certainly consistency in your egotism in this paragraph posted at the top.


BTW, references to your past glories on another web site and expecting us to sift through all of that is simply not appealing. Are you assuming that by filling a post with half a dozen links that suddenly a conversation will come out?

example: There was a short discussion of the Mosquito aircraft. You tossed three references to another discussion forum. (Armchair General) They appeared to deal with some sort of a poll to determine the "best" of a certain class of aircraft. But why did you include it? I read some of the comments but I am damned if I am going to sift through weeks of comments to find something pithy. And I still don't know what you think of the Mosquito.

You aren't one to accept recommendations but what the hell. How about presenting a point of view or an issue that you wish to discuss in your own words rather than a long string of course reading material. Give a little direction and focus to what you wish to discuss. And yeah, that could include a link to something useful. Just expect the site to be assessed for validity and reliability.

Quote:
Certainly found a couple/few whom were looking for fresh ones to be enemies with.


No No. You have it backwards my friend. Your initial responses to posters was aggressive. You were sussing out the competition. Perhaps you enjoy butting heads and insulting people but I do recall that I suggested that there were good people here and that you should "relax and enjoy the forum".
----------------------------------
George
Centre Hastings
ON Canada
Posts: 10971
Why Study History?
Posted on: 5/15/2020 7:53:48 PM

Quote:
As the People’s Republic of China (PRC) dominates world aluminum production, U.S. domestic aluminum capacity is in peril. The United States has seven aluminum smelters—the PRC has more than 140. The U.S. facilities are financially at risk without significant assistance. A loss of U.S. aluminum manufacturing would be a direct threat to U.S. national security and economic independence.


The largest supplier of aluminum to the US is Canada. ($8.2 billion USD). That's 34% of total imports. And this is primary aluminum which is used by the US to make product that it sells around the world, including back to Canada.

China provides $3 billion USD or 12.5% of imported aluminum.

The tariffs placed upon Canada's steel and aluminum during the NAFTA 2 negotiations in 2018 were imposed under Section 232 (security). I have already commented on the stupidity of this rationale.

The point is that Canada is a safe and secure supplier of steel and aluminum to the US.
----------------------------------
G David Bock
Lynden
WA USA
Posts: 337
Why Study History?
Posted on: 5/17/2020 1:19:50 PM

In case any haven't caught on yet, I tend to provide some small excerpt from linked articles partly to present some insight/clue to the essence and also provide an inducement to "read more". This is also part of a 'habit' developed over the years to avoid copyright issues for the Forum where such are posted.

Are there laws of history?
Historians believe that the past is irreducibly complex and the future wildly unpredictable. Scientists disagree. Who’s right?
...
It’s a truism that those who don’t learn from the past are condemned to repeat it. But it’s much rarer to see an explanation of exactly how history might help us build a better future. This doesn’t stop historians such as Yuval Noah Harari advising world leaders at Davos, or scientists such as Jared Diamond writing bestsellers about the collapse of traditional societies, of course. But the mechanisms that might enable knowledge of the past to change actions in the present are rarely clear, and historians who take big history to a wider readership, distilling the many voices of humanity’s past into a single human story, often become targets, as the recent New Yorker profile of Harari – which accused him, among other things, of ‘assured generalisation’ – demonstrated. Does the problem lie in the act of storytelling itself? If big data could enable us to turn big history into mathematics rather than narratives, would that make it easier to operationalise our past? Some scientists certainly think so.

In February 2010, Peter Turchin, an ecologist from the University of Connecticut, predicted that 2020 would see a sharp increase in political volatility for Western democracies. Turchin was responding critically to the optimistic speculations of scientific progress in the journal Nature: the United States, he said, was coming to the peak of another instability spike (regularly occurring every 50 years or so), while the world economy was reaching the point of a ‘Kondratiev wave’ dip, that is, a steep downturn in a growth-driven supercycle. Along with a number of ‘seemingly disparate’ social pointers, all indications were that serious problems were looming. In the decade since that prediction, the entrenched, often vicious, social, economic and political divisions that have increasingly characterised North American and European society, have made Turchin’s ‘quantitative historical analysis’ seem remarkably prophetic.

A couple of years earlier, in July 2008, Turchin had made a series of trenchant claims about the nature and future of history. Totting up in excess of ‘200 explanations’ proposed to account for the fall of the Roman empire, he was appalled that historians were unable to agree ‘which explanations are plausible and which should be rejected’. The situation, he maintained, was ‘as risible as if, in physics, phlogiston theory and thermodynamics coexisted on equal terms’. Why, Turchin wanted to know, were the efforts in medicine and environmental science to produce healthy bodies and ecologies not mirrored by interventions to create stable societies? Surely it was time ‘for history to become an analytical, and even a predictive, science’. Knowing that historians were themselves unlikely to adopt such analytical approaches to the past, he proposed a new discipline: ‘theoretical historical social science’ or ‘cliodynamics’ – the science of history.
...
https://aeon.co/essays/if-history-was-more-like-science-would-it-predict-the-future?utm_source=pocket-newtab
[Read More]
----------------------------------
TANSTAAFL - There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
G David Bock
Lynden
WA USA
Posts: 337
Why Study History?
Posted on: 5/17/2020 1:26:13 PM

I would suggest that this might also apply to religion, as well as politics ...

Why Is It so Stressful to Talk Politics With the Other Side?
We can disagree with co-workers in meetings or argue about sports with friends, but politics seems to be an entirely different beast.
...
People disagree all the time, but not all disagreements lead to the same levels of stress.

Even though people can be passionate about their favorite sport teams, they can argue about which basketball team is the best without destroying friendships. In the workplace, co-workers can often dispute strategies and approaches without risking a long-term fallout.

Political conversations, on the other hand, seem to have become especially challenging in recent years. Stories of tense Thanksgiving dinners and of Facebook friends being unfriended have become commonplace.

Why does this happen?

Our research – and related research in political psychology – suggest two broad answers.

First, our work shows that divisive topics – issues that are polarizing, or on which there’s no general societywide consensus – can evoke feelings of anxiety and threat. That is, simply considering these topics appears to put people on guard.

Second, research on moral conviction by psychologist Linda Skitka and her colleagues suggests that attitudes linked to moral values can contribute to social distancing. In other words, if someone considers their position on an issue to be a question of right versus wrong or good versus evil, they’re less likely to want to interact with a person who disagrees on that issue.
...
https://getpocket.com/explore/item/why-is-it-so-stressful-to-talk-politics-with-the-other-side?utm_source=pocket-newtab
[Read More]
----------------------------------
TANSTAAFL - There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
G David Bock
Lynden
WA USA
Posts: 337
Why Study History?
Posted on: 5/20/2020 3:14:01 PM

Quote:
Quote:
As the People’s Republic of China (PRC) dominates world aluminum production, U.S. domestic aluminum capacity is in peril. The United States has seven aluminum smelters—the PRC has more than 140. The U.S. facilities are financially at risk without significant assistance. A loss of U.S. aluminum manufacturing would be a direct threat to U.S. national security and economic independence.


The largest supplier of aluminum to the US is Canada. ($8.2 billion USD). That's 34% of total imports. And this is primary aluminum which is used by the US to make product that it sells around the world, including back to Canada.

China provides $3 billion USD or 12.5% of imported aluminum.

The tariffs placed upon Canada's steel and aluminum during the NAFTA 2 negotiations in 2018 were imposed under Section 232 (security). I have already commented on the stupidity of this rationale.

The point is that Canada is a safe and secure supplier of steel and aluminum to the US.


McKinney's article wasn't about USA sources of aluminum as much as;
1) the imbalance of competition on global markets coming from PRChina
2) limited capacity of the USA to provide for itself an essential strategic material, combined with too much dependency upon other nations for such
3) that of the seven aluminum smelters in the USA, the only one West of Mississippi is planning to shut down in next few months which not only reduces USA internal source and security, but will also remove about 700 good paying jobs here in this corner(county) of the PNW where such are already in rather short supply. Between the job losses and tax losses this will be a severe economic impact locally.

Aluminum industry in the United States
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminum_industry_in_the_United_States
[Read More]
Unfortunately, about 5-6 years old, but gives somewhat current perspective.
----------------------------------
TANSTAAFL - There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
George
Centre Hastings
ON Canada
Posts: 10971
Why Study History?
Posted on: 5/20/2020 8:57:58 PM

The US economy is fully integrated with Mexico and Canada. For all three countries there is some security in knowing that the sources of raw materials and parts is secure because of this free trade zone.

I get the part about job losses but the fact is that Quebec and BC, smelters are are able to make use of cheaper hydro-electric power to produce high quality aluminum. High tech manufacturing plus the use of hydro power also means that the Canadian industry has the lowest carbon footprint of any of the aluminum producing countries.

We don't mine bauxite and the US mines very little. So if there is any insecurity in this industry it is because we have to go off shore to buy the raw materials for the smelters.

Fortunately, one of the largest suppliers of bauxite is Australia, I believe.

It is not necessary to make everything in house if secure supply chains have been established.

However, the coronavirus has shown us that complete dependence on foreign countries for supplies in some critical areas, read PPE, is folly.

I suspect that the NAFTA 2.0 countries will begin to produce specific products, like PPE, within the economic zone, to ensure supplies. And that could happen with other products as well.

EDIT: I wanted to mention another example of the US and security. Despite the fact that the US is becoming less reliant on foreign oil, it still imports and the largest exporter of crude to the US is Canada, providing over 50% of imported oil to US. Saudi oil only comprises 8.7% of US imports.

The first NAFTA actually had a clause in it that stated that Canada had to supply oil to the US in a fixed amount even if our domestic needs increased. So the US actually had control of Canada's oil industry which was foolish concession on our part. The clause is not part of NAFTA 2.0 but then our oil is tied up in tar sands and is costly to extract. My point is that in the oil sector, the US had a secure supply.



----------------------------------
G David Bock
Lynden
WA USA
Posts: 337
Why Study History?
Posted on: 5/21/2020 12:42:19 PM

Quote:
Quote:
Too bad about not wanting to know about other Forums(websites), that is one way to expand what one could know and learn. Speaking of learning, this forum was looking a bit dead when I dropped by few weeks ago and still looking about to see what there is to know, learn here that I haven't found other places. Will give it a chance, but so far looking like I've been the one to bring some fresh ideas, sources, learning and corrections here. We'll see. I also may have made a friend or two so far. Certainly found a couple/few whom were looking for fresh ones to be enemies with.


Quote:
So I'm on a learning curve here of sorts and "tests" (or baited traps if you prefer) are one device to help get to know whom you all are and what I'm dealing with.
. (Bock, April 28)

So clearly I and perhaps others are not meeting your standards but please tell me whether this is another "baited trap".

So you are "giving it a chance"?? I suspect that you do not see how condescending that phrase is.

Quote:
This is just an internet Forum and no Large Deal ....
. (Bock, April 28)

So it seems that your current assessment of this site is consistent with your initial observations.

Quote:
While you may be the Oldest and Biggest Fish in this Small Pond; I've been an equal-to-bigger Fish in a Larger Pond, dwarfing this one ten to PPPPLus fold, et. !!!!!
. (Bock, directed to George on April 30)

I suspect that your "baiting" process was one that allowed you to identify targets. Tell me, do you see a discussion forum as a competition of sorts, one in which your goal is to vilify or abase those who disagree with you? I think that you came in here, all gangbusters, prepared to show everyone here that you were a force to be reckoned with. I'm not sure why but you were aggressive with anyone that didn't praise your initial offerings. And I wasn't the first person to whom you made unnecessarily aggressive remarks to a less than fulsome acceptance of one of your posts. (See your initial foray into this thread)

So I am not sure why you are staying if you find this forum so wanting. But there is certainly consistency in your egotism in this paragraph posted at the top.


BTW, references to your past glories on another web site and expecting us to sift through all of that is simply not appealing. Are you assuming that by filling a post with half a dozen links that suddenly a conversation will come out?

example: There was a short discussion of the Mosquito aircraft. You tossed three references to another discussion forum. (Armchair General) They appeared to deal with some sort of a poll to determine the "best" of a certain class of aircraft. But why did you include it? I read some of the comments but I am damned if I am going to sift through weeks of comments to find something pithy. And I still don't know what you think of the Mosquito.

You aren't one to accept recommendations but what the hell. How about presenting a point of view or an issue that you wish to discuss in your own words rather than a long string of course reading material. Give a little direction and focus to what you wish to discuss. And yeah, that could include a link to something useful. Just expect the site to be assessed for validity and reliability.

Quote:
Certainly found a couple/few whom were looking for fresh ones to be enemies with.


No No. You have it backwards my friend. Your initial responses to posters was aggressive. You were sussing out the competition. Perhaps you enjoy butting heads and insulting people but I do recall that I suggested that there were good people here and that you should "relax and enjoy the forum".


I may be candid, blunt, and/or assertive, but as for "aggressive", you seem to be the one fitting that tag. From "Posted on: 4/28/2020 2:21:23 PM " of this thread onward to here, you have been increasingly abusive, and escalated to insulting by accusing me of being in the "business of hate", engaging in "hate speech", etc. and also charging me with being "Islamophobic" while yourself used terms and references that by your standards would make you guilty of being Christianophobic and Jewishophobic, while practicing the classic brand of "hate speech" common to the non-tolerant Left-Wing. When someone flings their "monkey poo" at me, I'm inclined to fling some of it back at them. A review of the chains of posts here in this thread will show that you are the one whom initiated any "aggressive" stance here.

During my short time here, I've exchanged a few PMs (private Message) with a couple of other members and have found out I'm not the only one whom has challenges dealing with you, or been target of your abusive and aggressive treatment. You may want to take a long gaze into the mirror.

Regarding "tests", a reminder that the whole of the Cosmos/Universe is a constant "Test", and we humans are also in a lifetime of continual "tests", so you may want to re-calibrate your perspective a bit.

I've been involved on many other boards before discovering this one, and most of those had far more members and were far more active than this one. Some of those other forums/BBS are no longer active/exist. One common factor was it took a while to get to know each other, old and new members alike, and there usually were a few whom can be "problematic". Old as this cartoon is, it still applies;


https://www.washingtonpost.com/blogs/comic-riffs/post/nobody-knows-youre-a-dog-as-iconic-internet-cartoon-turns-20-creator-peter-steiner-knows-the-joke-rings-as-relevant-as-ever/2013/07/31/73372600-f98d-11e2-8e84-c56731a202fb_blog.html
[Read More]

----------------------------------
TANSTAAFL - There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
scoucer
Berlin
 Germany
Posts: 2778
Why Study History?
Posted on: 5/21/2020 1:44:35 PM

Quote:


I may be candid, blunt, and/or assertive, but as for "aggressive", you seem to be the one fitting that tag. From "Posted on: 4/28/2020 2:21:23 PM " of this thread onward to here, you have been increasingly abusive, and escalated to insulting by accusing me of being in the "business of hate", engaging in "hate speech", etc. and also charging me with being "Islamophobic" while yourself used terms and references that by your standards would make you guilty of being Christianophobic and Jewishophobic, while practicing the classic brand of "hate speech" common to the non-tolerant Left-Wing. When someone flings their "monkey poo" at me, I'm inclined to fling some of it back at them. A review of the chains of posts here in this thread will show that you are the one whom initiated any "aggressive" stance here.



G. David,

You have posted "Islamophobic" hate speech posts on well known right-wing white-supremacy conspiracy websites and now you are playing the victim for being called on it. Grow up.

Trevor
----------------------------------
`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.
G David Bock
Lynden
WA USA
Posts: 337
Why Study History?
Posted on: 5/21/2020 3:13:02 PM

Quote:
Quote:


I may be candid, blunt, and/or assertive, but as for "aggressive", you seem to be the one fitting that tag. From "Posted on: 4/28/2020 2:21:23 PM " of this thread onward to here, you have been increasingly abusive, and escalated to insulting by accusing me of being in the "business of hate", engaging in "hate speech", etc. and also charging me with being "Islamophobic" while yourself used terms and references that by your standards would make you guilty of being Christianophobic and Jewishophobic, while practicing the classic brand of "hate speech" common to the non-tolerant Left-Wing. When someone flings their "monkey poo" at me, I'm inclined to fling some of it back at them. A review of the chains of posts here in this thread will show that you are the one whom initiated any "aggressive" stance here.



G. David,

You have posted "Islamophobic" hate speech posts on well known right-wing white-supremacy conspiracy websites and now you are playing the victim for being called on it. Grow up.

Trevor


Trevor,

Please document and provide truth of your accusation. Otherwise you are playing the same aggression game as George.

ArmChair General(ACG) Forum has as many Left-Wingnuts percentage wise as here at MHO. Hardly what I'd call "well known right-wing white-supremacy conspiracy websites " so I'm curious what and where you have found such.

Providing statements from Islamic Jihadists is presenting fact and truth, from their own mouths, so hardly constitutes "Islamophobia" any more than quoting German Nazis would be Naziophobia.

Meanwhile, like George, seems you find this admirable;
‘Battle of Ramadan’: Jihadis Kill 584, Injure 587 in Three Weeks of Holy Month
...
Casualties at the hands of Jihadis during the first three weeks of Ramadan hit a grim milestone, exceeding 1,000 with 584 fatalities and 587 injuries, data compiled by Breitbart News shows.
...
Breitbart News primarily gleans its tally from the Religion of Peace website and the Armed Conflict Location and Event Data Project (ACLED) in coordination with news and government reports.

This report only includes incidents where Breitbart News has corroborated those reports and online entities that monitor jihadi activity. It also omits attacks where the jihadist nature of the perpetrators is not clear, including attacks where no group has taken responsibility in an area where terrorists of non-jihadist ideologies are also present.

The overall number of attacks and the associated casualties could be higher, given that Breitbart News is not able to confirm all incidents. Moreover, monitor groups do not document all terror events online. Death and injury figures may change as some victims succumb to their wounds.

For the most part, the tally excludes casualties suffered by jihadis. Some of the documented incidents in Syria may inadvertently include deaths and injuries sustained by rebel groups with Islamic terrorist ties.
...
https://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2020/05/21/battle-of-ramadan-jihadis-kill-584-injure-587-in-three-weeks-of-holy-month/
[Read More]

The Armed Conflict Location & Event Data Project
https://acleddata.com/#/dashboard
[Read More]

https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
[Read More]

----------------------------------
TANSTAAFL - There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
scoucer
Berlin
 Germany
Posts: 2778
Why Study History?
Posted on: 5/21/2020 6:59:56 PM

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:


I may be candid, blunt, and/or assertive, but as for "aggressive", you seem to be the one fitting that tag. From "Posted on: 4/28/2020 2:21:23 PM " of this thread onward to here, you have been increasingly abusive, and escalated to insulting by accusing me of being in the "business of hate", engaging in "hate speech", etc. and also charging me with being "Islamophobic" while yourself used terms and references that by your standards would make you guilty of being Christianophobic and Jewishophobic, while practicing the classic brand of "hate speech" common to the non-tolerant Left-Wing. When someone flings their "monkey poo" at me, I'm inclined to fling some of it back at them. A review of the chains of posts here in this thread will show that you are the one whom initiated any "aggressive" stance here.



G. David,

You have posted "Islamophobic" hate speech posts on well known right-wing white-supremacy conspiracy websites and now you are playing the victim for being called on it. Grow up.

Trevor


Trevor,

Please document and provide truth of your accusation. Otherwise you are playing the same aggression game as George.

ArmChair General(ACG) Forum has as many Left-Wingnuts percentage wise as here at MHO. Hardly what I'd call "well known right-wing white-supremacy conspiracy websites " so I'm curious what and where you have found such.

Providing statements from Islamic Jihadists is presenting fact and truth, from their own mouths, so hardly constitutes "Islamophobia" any more than quoting German Nazis would be Naziophobia.

Meanwhile, like George, seems you find this admirable;
‘Battle of Ramadan’: Jihadis Kill 584, Injure 587 in Three Weeks of Holy Month
...
Casualties at the hands of Jihadis during the first three weeks of Ramadan hit a grim milestone, exceeding 1,000 with 584 fatalities and 587 injuries, data compiled by Breitbart News shows.
...
Breitbart News primarily gleans its tally from the Religion of Peace website and the Armed Conflict Location and Event Data Project (ACLED) in coordination with news and government reports.

This report only includes incidents where Breitbart News has corroborated those reports and online entities that monitor jihadi activity. It also omits attacks where the jihadist nature of the perpetrators is not clear, including attacks where no group has taken responsibility in an area where terrorists of non-jihadist ideologies are also present.

The overall number of attacks and the associated casualties could be higher, given that Breitbart News is not able to confirm all incidents. Moreover, monitor groups do not document all terror events online. Death and injury figures may change as some victims succumb to their wounds.

For the most part, the tally excludes casualties suffered by jihadis. Some of the documented incidents in Syria may inadvertently include deaths and injuries sustained by rebel groups with Islamic terrorist ties.
...
https://www.breitbart.com/national-security/2020/05/21/battle-of-ramadan-jihadis-kill-584-injure-587-in-three-weeks-of-holy-month/
[Read More]

The Armed Conflict Location & Event Data Project
https://acleddata.com/#/dashboard
[Read More]

https://www.thereligionofpeace.com/
[Read More]



I am not playing any aggressive game. You can keep on squirming all you like. You are the one who started screaming about Leftie Liberals and mainstream press brainwashing, insulting countless people. And now you are playing the victim again. Breitbart bullshit.

Trevor
----------------------------------
`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.
G David Bock
Lynden
WA USA
Posts: 337
Why Study History?
Posted on: 5/21/2020 7:47:59 PM

EDIT for brevity

Quote:


I am not playing any aggressive game. You can keep on squirming all you like. You are the one who started screaming about Leftie Liberals and mainstream press brainwashing, insulting countless people. And now you are playing the victim again. Breitbart bullshit.

Trevor


Yeah, right, whatever.
You and George start your anti-conservative bashing, "Orange Man Bad" crap, etc. and expect to have your insults and abuses go unchallenged. How about try getting real yourselves.
And why the "play the victim" from you all on being labeled Left-Wing Liberals? Don't you have pride in what you are? Or is this guilt and embarrassment on your part?

I did no screaming. On internet forums, "THIS IS SCREAMING".

As for your "Breitbart bullshit", you make a lousy G2/S2. Were you to check content you'd see I linked to the sources used in his article. Maybe try countering with some more of your Left-Wingnut bullshit sources.

I hardly find two crybaby LWLs to be "countless people".

BTW, you help to illustrate how wars get started and "Why Study History".

Here's some more you can get your knickers in a knot over since some of you support Islamism and Jihad;
Rape as Jihad
https://www.meforum.org/60957/rape-as-jihad?utm_source=Middle+East+Forum&utm_campaign=da989f8acd-MEF_Ibrahim_2020_05_21_05_53&utm_medium=email&utm_term=0_086cfd423c-da989f8acd-33661481&goal=0_086cfd423c-da989f8acd-33661481&mc_cid=da989f8acd&mc_eid=062f3a999b
[Read More]
Islam’s Sexual Fantasies
https://www.americanthinker.com/articles/2020/05/islams_sexual_fantasies_.html?utm_source=vuukle&utm_medium=newsfeed
[Read More]

And one more:
Is Islam a religion of peace?
...
What about if most of the followers of a religion are peaceful and law-abiding? Would this make it a religion of peace? Perhaps. But what if a significant minority claim inspiration from the teaching of their religion to commit acts of war and terrorism? What if this minority has a strong claim to be following the example of the founder of their religion? What if this minority can also point to multiple religious authorities and examples through history as setting a precedent for their religious understanding?

It is indeed the case that the majority of Muslims are peaceful, law-abiding people. But it is also the case that the majority of Muslims are unfamiliar with the teaching of the Qur’an and the life of Muhammad. They are not usually encouraged to read the Qur’an in a language they can understand. Many Muslims self-identify as such because of culture, birth or relationships. Therefore if we critique the teaching of their religion, we are not thereby criticising the behaviour or beliefs of every adherent of Islam.
...
The meaning of ‘Islam’

Muslims are not Islam. We need to distinguish between the people and the ideology; criticism of Islam is not criticism of all Muslims. To understand what Islam is, we need to examine its teachings from the Qur’an and the example of Muhammad. The fact that most Muslims don’t know or agree with all these teachings does not change what the religion actually teaches.

The word ‘Islam’ does not mean ‘peace’ as is often assumed. It means ‘submission’ or ‘surrender’. Mark Durie, a linguistics and theology scholar, writes: “In its original meaning, a Muslim was someone who surrendered in warfare.”[2] Muhammad’s famous phrase aslim taslam means “surrender (i.e. submit to Islam) and you will be safe”.[3] These words were included by him in letters sent to various rulers offering them peace if they surrendered to Islam. This is important because, far from carrying a peaceful meaning, Islam actually means peace after surrender in warfare or after subjugation.

In fact, Islam was first called a religion of peace as late as 1930 in a book published to promote Islam,[4] and as Muslims sought to promote their faith to western audiences. Thus, for the first 1,300 years of Islamic history, this description was unknown; it occurs nowhere in the texts or traditions of Islam right up until the last century.
...
The claim is sometimes made that there is a distinction between the ‘greater jihad’ and the ‘lesser jihad’. This claim is based on the following hadith:

Some troops came back from an expedition and went to see the Messenger of Allah sallallahu `alayhi wa-Sallam. He said: “You have come for the best, from the smaller jihad (al-jihad al-asghar) to the greater jihad (al-jihad al-akbar).” Someone said, “What is the greater jihad?” He said: “The servant’s struggle against his lust” (mujahadat al-`abdi hawah).

This hadith is narrated in Al-Bayhaqi in al-Zuhd al-Kabir, though it is noted that “This is a chain that contains weakness.”[5] It is dated from the first half of the ninth century and is not related in any of the official canonical hadith collections.[6] Most significantly, it is contradicted by the Qur’an itself which says:

Not equal are those believers who sit (at home) and receive no hurt, and those who strive and fight in the cause of Allah with their goods and their persons. Allah hath granted a grade higher to those who strive and fight with their goods and persons than to those who sit (at home). Unto all (in Faith) hath Allah promised good: But those who strive and fight hath He distinguished above those who sit (at home) by a special reward. (Q 4:95)

Here it is clear that physical fighting is regarded as the greater endeavour. All four schools of Sunni jurisprudence, as well as the Shi’ite tradition make no reference to a ‘greater jihad’. There are multiple references to jihad in the most trusted hadith collections and with virtually no exceptions, they all refer to physical fighting. For example:

A man came to Allah’s Messenger and said, “Instruct me as to such a deed as equals Jihad (in reward).” He replied, “I do not find such a deed.” Then he added, “Can you, while the Muslim fighter is in the battle-field, enter your mosque to perform prayers without cease and fast and never break your fast?” The man said, “But who can do that?” Abu-Huraira added, “The Mujahid (i.e. Muslim fighter) is rewarded even for the footsteps of his horse while it wanders about (for grazing) tied in a long rope”. (Bukhari 5:52:44)

Leading scholar David Cook argues that attempts to present jihad in purely spiritual terms are completely unsupported by the evidence, and only occur in writings for Western audiences: “Those who write in Arabic or other Muslim majority languages realise that it is pointless to present jihad as anything other than militant warfare.”[7]

In fact, jihad as physical fighting for the spread of Islam is so prominent in the traditional teaching of Islam that it is sometimes referred to as the sixth pillar of Islam. In the earliest hadith collections, sections on jihad immediately follow those on the five pillars.[8] The primary meaning of jihad has always been physical fighting. This applies to the Qur’an, the hadith, Islamic history and classical Islamic hermeneutics.

To conclude, David Cook cites the standard definition of jihad given in the new edition of the Encyclopaedia of Islam: “In law, according to general doctrine and in historical tradition, the jihad consists of military action with the object of the expansion of Islam and, if need be, of its defence.”[9]
...
https://christianconcern.com/resource/is-islam-a-religion-of-peace/
[Read More]
----------------------------------
TANSTAAFL - There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
George
Centre Hastings
ON Canada
Posts: 10971
Why Study History?
Posted on: 5/21/2020 7:51:23 PM

Quote:
A review of the chains of posts here in this thread will show that you are the one whom initiated any "aggressive" stance here.


You are screwing yourself into a big hole. I already reviewed your initial foray into this forum. Your first insult was not directed toward me, by the way. But it is your MO when challenged.

You're just pissed because I pointed out that you had referred me to racist and xenophobic web sites. And you have just done it again.

----------------------------------
G David Bock
Lynden
WA USA
Posts: 337
Why Study History?
Posted on: 5/21/2020 8:12:44 PM

Quote:
Quote:
A review of the chains of posts here in this thread will show that you are the one whom initiated any "aggressive" stance here.


You are screwing yourself into a big hole. I already reviewed your initial foray into this forum. Your first insult was not directed toward me, by the way. But it is your MO when challenged.

You're just pissed because I pointed out that you had referred me to racist and xenophobic web sites. And you have just done it again.


I'm not pissed, seems you and Trevor are for having someone counter your own bias, prejudice, racism, and xenophobia. Speaking of MOs, this is also classic on your part as a Left-wingnut, to throw out unfounded, highly subjective views and think such and you are expert; along with classifying any opposing views as "insult". And I pointed out that your counter sources were also biased, racist, and xenophobic.

BTW, love how Left-Wingnuts have made a religion's followers into a "race". Shades of neo-Nazism eh! Last time I looked, Muslims span the spectrum of human races and ethnics.

From what I've gathered from your posts, anything not from Left-Wingnut Loonie sources is unacceptable. No surprise I guess.

Only hole screwing is coming from you and other LWLs.
----------------------------------
TANSTAAFL - There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
George
Centre Hastings
ON Canada
Posts: 10971
Why Study History?
Posted on: 5/22/2020 7:28:29 AM

Mr. Bock, this last post is similar to any of your responses to criticism on that other big pond site to which you allude constantly. Of note, you immediately assess anyone that doesn't buy your brand of bigotry as LWL, democrats, wing-nuts. You question the intellect of those whom may disagree with you. You question their sanity. In fact, it seems to me that you have a ready list of insults to toss out whenever needed. I read some of your stuff on Armchair General. It's a tired though well practiced methodology for you. You have brought it with you unfortunately.

You haven't been here long enough to understand my politics or views on much of anything. I am not an American remember. The international corps here think differently about many topics. In general, I would say that we do not divide ourselves into two warring camps. The divisions among men that you promote are engrained in your culture right now. But many moderate Americans on this site have not responded to you either. They are thoughtful people who have elected not to engage with you or the people with extreme and unsubstantiated views on LFF.

Actually, you don't engage in discussion. You are a link provider, a wiki poster. Dozens of them. Some are from xenophobic sites preferred by white supremacists and bigots. And for the most part, little discussion ensues. You have enough ego to repost stuff from your past, which was posted on other sites. So you keep at it and tally your score and the number of hits that you get on each post and we can ignore one another.


----------------------------------
scoucer
Berlin
 Germany
Posts: 2778
Why Study History?
Posted on: 5/22/2020 6:31:31 PM

Quote:
Quote:
Quote:
A review of the chains of posts here in this thread will show that you are the one whom initiated any "aggressive" stance here.


You are screwing yourself into a big hole. I already reviewed your initial foray into this forum. Your first insult was not directed toward me, by the way. But it is your MO when challenged.

You're just pissed because I pointed out that you had referred me to racist and xenophobic web sites. And you have just done it again.


I'm not pissed, seems you and Trevor are for having someone counter your own bias, prejudice, racism, and xenophobia. Speaking of MOs, this is also classic on your part as a Left-wingnut, to throw out unfounded, highly subjective views and think such and you are expert; along with classifying any opposing views as "insult". And I pointed out that your counter sources were also biased, racist, and xenophobic.

BTW, love how Left-Wingnuts have made a religion's followers into a "race". Shades of neo-Nazism eh! Last time I looked, Muslims span the spectrum of human races and ethnics.
From what I've gathered from your posts, anything not from Left-Wingnut Loonie sources is unacceptable. No surprise I guess.

Only hole screwing is coming from you and other LWLs.


Still squirming and throwing your toys out of the pram. Still hurling insults. For someone who is not pissed, you seem pretty angry.
I do not consider opposing views as insults I consider insults as insults. You can have an opinion, a belief, everybody is entitled to theirs. You can say " I believe this or that because of .........." and I can say "Well I believe something different because of ...........". It´s called discussion. It is the very basis of democracy - but you don´t do that do you ? Anybody who disagrees has abuse hurled at them - Left-Wingnut Loonie, bias, prejudice, racism, and xenophobia.

"Methinks you doth complain too much" to quote Shakespeare. I think you should look up the psychological mechanism of "Projection" (and yes I am an expert in this field, it is one of my proffessions ).

It might surprise you to find that George and I are actually conservatives with a small "c". It is just that in the troubled, polarized US, the Conservatives have moved so far to the Right we can no longer identify with you. Those of us who have served our countries, like myself, defending democracy along side you , can only look from without with great sadness. A friend who served with the 9th Panzer Grenadiers in Afghanistan put it quite succintly " America - we have admired you, we have loved you and sometimes hated you, we have envied you, but for the first time we pity you"

Take care of yourself
Trevor
----------------------------------
`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.
Brian Grafton
Victoria
BC Canada
Posts: 3203
Why Study History?
Posted on: 5/23/2020 9:15:51 PM

Trevor, you must be very good at your work indeed!

I'm not a small "c" conservative, though I could be a "red Tory", to use a long-ago term. But according to the latest algorithm my data has been pushed through, I still a certified pinko crypto-Commie SOB. An interesting story in itself, IMHO. But for another time and thread, probably.

This thread is, of course, titled "Why Study History?". So I particularly note your: Quote:
Those of us who have served our countries, like myself, defending democracy along side you , can only look from without with great sadness. A friend who served with the 9th Panzer Grenadiers in Afghanistan put it quite succintly " America - we have admired you, we have loved you and sometimes hated you, we have envied you, but for the first time we pity you".

I haven't served, and doubt at my current age they would try to recruit me. But the comment from your buddy in the 9th Panzer Grenadiers (damn, but that''s a lovely touch!) strikes a chord with me. Although some happened before I could assess things for myself, I've lived through:
• Defeat of the German Reich.
• Defeat of the Japanese Empire.
• Death of the British Empire.
• Death of the Dutch and French Empires.
• Collapse of the Nationalist Chinese Regime/birth of Communist China.
• UN/Communist stalemate in Korea, still not resolved.
• US (and allied) failure in Vietnam.
• US failure in Iran.
• Soviet failure in Afghanistan.
That gets us to the early 80's, but my fingers need a rest! Besides, things don't change after the fall of the Soviets. Except in one way. Instead of being unhappy as one of two "superpowers", the US increasingly became unhappy with not receiving universal accolades when enforcing its concept of "the good life".

Trevor, I might argue that the responses of the "right" in US life to any criticisms – personal, political, economic, or social – is really about the Emperor's New Clothes. Sadly, the US appears increasingly incapable, unable, unprepared or uncommitted to enact its self-appointed "superpower" role except with handouts or sanctions. It appears to have no positive values to share. This, I think, is part of why some may pity the US, whether in the military or not.

I think that when the ongoing standards of the west – free speech, free press, freedom of religion – regain status as normal values, rather than either "fake" issues or "something-Gates", at least the US people I know will begin to cleanse their nation, simply by shedding whatever political toxin has infected the US.

In the mean time, sadly, the current US administration may have sufficiently isolated itself in every major field that nobody will be interested in the least in sharing with the US. IIUC, the current administration has alienated , altered, changed, rejected or ignored the following:
• NATO values and protocols, using funding issues as a weapon.
• Climate Accords, arguing they are insufficient while rolling back EPA guidelines.
• Ongoing military, inspection, and testing procedures.
• International Trade agreements with hosts of nations, typically using fees and other surcharges as punishment for no-compliance.
• International Atomic agreements, with demands that other nations accept US determinations.

I'll admit I had a problem with #43 Mr Bush and his aims and directions. But IMHO Dubya now appears sane. I have no sense of whether the current administration has any plan, value, concept or direction driving any comment it makes about even the most trivial thing.

I don't worry about being called a host of nasty names by a US conservative with or without a "born-again" belief in the lies and deceits of Mr Trump. And although it is challenging, I get their need to reject challenges. But I admit, the current administration and it' followers are less than convincing.

I think the US is in the process of collapse as a superpower. It will never be a minor nation, of course, but I think it has burned too many bridges to become a nation worth listening to. That is, yes, sad. But it's not surprising. The change won't happen overnight, I hope. But I'm of a belief that the COVID-19 issue has exposed weaknesses in the US system that will not be healed as things return to "normal." Just as I believe the US response to COVID-19 illustrates a significant flaw in US values, attitudes or support systems.

Hey folks!. Continue to stay safe! Life is important, not a statistic!

Stay safe,
Brian G

----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
Michigan Dave
Muskegon, Michigan
MI USA
Posts: 5893
Why Study History?
Posted on: 5/24/2020 7:20:41 PM

Hi Bri,

You are certainly veracious but surely unsung around here!?

Stay safe as well,
MD
----------------------------------
"The brave men, living and dead, who struggled here, have consecrated it, far above our poor power to add or detract."
scoucer
Berlin
 Germany
Posts: 2778
Why Study History?
Posted on: 5/29/2020 9:52:21 AM

Quote:
Trevor, you must be very good at your work indeed!

Stay safe,
Brian G


Thank you Brian. Almost 30 years experience on top of having some really wonderful teachers. On the shoulders of giants as the saying goes.
Had me thinking how so many have passed on.

Salvador Minuchin Director of the Child Guidance Clinic in Philadelphia. Gianfranco Cecchin, Gianluigi Boscolo und Mara Selvini Palazzoli from the Centro Milanese Di Terapia Della Famiglia in Milan. Evan Imber-Black Center for Families and Health Ackerman Institute for the Family New York. Tom Andersen Universität von Tromsø Norway, Karl Tomm University of Calgary, Fritz B.Simon der Universität Heidelberg. Marie-Luise Conen Context Institute Berlin.

And they all spoke of their indebtidness to Paul Watzlavick, Gregory Bateson, Jay Haley, Helm Stierlin, Jacob Moreno and Virginia Satir.

Trevor
----------------------------------
`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.
G David Bock
Lynden
WA USA
Posts: 337
Why Study History?
Posted on: 5/30/2020 6:10:07 PM

Quote:
Mr. Bock, this last post is similar to any of your responses to criticism on that other big pond site to which you allude constantly. Of note, you immediately assess anyone that doesn't buy your brand of bigotry as LWL, democrats, wing-nuts. You question the intellect of those whom may disagree with you. You question their sanity. In fact, it seems to me that you have a ready list of insults to toss out whenever needed. I read some of your stuff on Armchair General. It's a tired though well practiced methodology for you. You have brought it with you unfortunately.


Also a methodology frequently used and well practiced by those on the Left side of political and ideological divide, as we here in the USA define such. I understand how those raised in systems with generations of "creeping" socialism can tend to see anything close to an objective mid-point as leaning Right of the far Left norm they are used to.

All a matter of perspectives. Those of us supportive of free enterprise and the person freedoms and liberties and prosperity such makes possible notice a similar projection by those on the Left thinking their brand of bigotry, prejudice and bias is acceptable and any opposition speech isn't. Look whom has been blocking First Amendment rights here on USA college campuses as an example of the Orwellian "1984ish" "Correct-Speak" censorship and dis-information.

Quote:
You haven't been here long enough to understand my politics or views on much of anything. I am not an American remember. The international corps here think differently about many topics. In general, I would say that we do not divide ourselves into two warring camps. The divisions among men that you promote are engrained in your culture right now. But many moderate Americans on this site have not responded to you either. They are thoughtful people who have elected not to engage with you or the people with extreme and unsubstantiated views on LFF.


I have been on assorted Forums for thirty plus years now and same to similar personalities and views/perspectives such as I've encountered here have been there and dealt with all along. Didn't take much reading of your posts to gauge your views and your hostile intend shows here on this thread back around a thresh-hold post of "5/2/2020 3:40:03 PM " above.

Those "divisions among men" you imply go back through history and look to continue for some time into the future. It wasn't the USA which started two World Wars; nor did the USA present the Koran and provide it's scriptural incentive for Islamic Jihad. It wasn't the USA which spent the past five hundred years establishing colonies around the globe and then dumping then when the plunder was gone and the expense of supporting and preparing them for independence was too great. Well aware of how "international corps here~ and throughout history and around the globe~ think differently about many topics. That's why such have been the source of so many conflicts and misery upon this planet.

As for response/participation on this forum, I noticed that was dwindling to non-existant before I even joined. And I'm not surprised some have had their fill of the aggressive vitriolic responses you and a couple others present to any whom don't concur with your extreme Left-Wingnut views. This is part of what I've learned after exchanging a few PMs with some of those others.

Quote:
Actually, you don't engage in discussion. You are a link provider, a wiki poster. Dozens of them. Some are from xenophobic sites preferred by white supremacists and bigots. And for the most part, little discussion ensues. You have enough ego to repost stuff from your past, which was posted on other sites. So you keep at it and tally your score and the number of hits that you get on each post and we can ignore one another.


I've engaged in some discussions, but am not up to the level of debate and argument you prefer and engage in. I also think a major purpose for Forums is to provide and exchange information, then let the readers access and decide for themselves. I've provided sources/sites to counter the propaganda and distortions presented by the elitist Left-Wing supremacists and bigots operative here.

I repost from other forums because I don't see any sense to re-write if the first draft was good enough.

I admit I made a couple mistakes when I started here.
1) I neglected to genuflect to George and kiss his ring.
2) I neglected to get George's permission to post here.
3) I neglected to give George editorial and censorship rights over anything I might want to post here.
4) I neglected to acknowledge that this is George's Military History Forum.

I'm not aware of any way to tally views or "hits" on any posts I write, but such are for the other readers as much if not for the person I might be "addressing". I am trying to address the post and not the poster, but seems the Rules of Conduct here are a bit loose compared to what I'm used to and seems many view this forum as one to engage in personal attacks and insults rather than anything more constructive. Might be another clue why this Forum is dwindling and dying.

Don't mind if you ignore me, I'm not here to serve you. But I see you have some difficulty in keeping this promise.



----------------------------------
TANSTAAFL - There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
scoucer
Berlin
 Germany
Posts: 2778
Why Study History?
Posted on: 5/30/2020 6:55:41 PM

Quote:
Quote:
Mr. Bock, this last post is similar to any of your responses to criticism on that other big pond site to which you allude constantly. Of note, you immediately assess anyone that doesn't buy your brand of bigotry as LWL, democrats, wing-nuts. You question the intellect of those whom may disagree with you. You question their sanity. In fact, it seems to me that you have a ready list of insults to toss out whenever needed. I read some of your stuff on Armchair General. It's a tired though well practiced methodology for you. You have brought it with you unfortunately.


Also a methodology frequently used and well practiced by those on the Left side of political and ideological divide, as we here in the USA define such. I understand how those raised in systems with generations of "creeping" socialism can tend to see anything close to an objective mid-point as leaning Right of the far Left norm they are used to.

All a matter of perspectives. Those of us supportive of free enterprise and the person freedoms and liberties and prosperity such makes possible notice a similar projection by those on the Left thinking their brand of bigotry, prejudice and bias is acceptable and any opposition speech isn't. Look whom has been blocking First Amendment rights here on USA college campuses as an example of the Orwellian "1984ish" "Correct-Speak" censorship and dis-information.

Quote:
You haven't been here long enough to understand my politics or views on much of anything. I am not an American remember. The international corps here think differently about many topics. In general, I would say that we do not divide ourselves into two warring camps. The divisions among men that you promote are engrained in your culture right now. But many moderate Americans on this site have not responded to you either. They are thoughtful people who have elected not to engage with you or the people with extreme and unsubstantiated views on LFF.


I have been on assorted Forums for thirty plus years now and same to similar personalities and views/perspectives such as I've encountered here have been there and dealt with all along. Didn't take much reading of your posts to gauge your views and your hostile intend shows here on this thread back around a thresh-hold post of "5/2/2020 3:40:03 PM " above.

Those "divisions among men" you imply go back through history and look to continue for some time into the future. It wasn't the USA which started two World Wars; nor did the USA present the Koran and provide it's scriptural incentive for Islamic Jihad. It wasn't the USA which spent the past five hundred years establishing colonies around the globe and then dumping then when the plunder was gone and the expense of supporting and preparing them for independence was too great. Well aware of how "international corps here~ and throughout history and around the globe~ think differently about many topics. That's why such have been the source of so many conflicts and misery upon this planet.

As for response/participation on this forum, I noticed that was dwindling to non-existant before I even joined. And I'm not surprised some have had their fill of the aggressive vitriolic responses you and a couple others present to any whom don't concur with your extreme Left-Wingnut views. This is part of what I've learned after exchanging a few PMs with some of those others.

Quote:
Actually, you don't engage in discussion. You are a link provider, a wiki poster. Dozens of them. Some are from xenophobic sites preferred by white supremacists and bigots. And for the most part, little discussion ensues. You have enough ego to repost stuff from your past, which was posted on other sites. So you keep at it and tally your score and the number of hits that you get on each post and we can ignore one another.


I've engaged in some discussions, but am not up to the level of debate and argument you prefer and engage in. I also think a major purpose for Forums is to provide and exchange information, then let the readers access and decide for themselves. I've provided sources/sites to counter the propaganda and distortions presented by the elitist Left-Wing supremacists and bigots operative here.

I repost from other forums because I don't see any sense to re-write if the first draft was good enough.

I admit I made a couple mistakes when I started here.
1) I neglected to genuflect to George and kiss his ring.
2) I neglected to get George's permission to post here.
3) I neglected to give George editorial and censorship rights over anything I might want to post here.
4) I neglected to acknowledge that this is George's Military History Forum.

I'm not aware of any way to tally views or "hits" on any posts I write, but such are for the other readers as much if not for the person I might be "addressing". I am trying to address the post and not the poster, but seems the Rules of Conduct here are a bit loose compared to what I'm used to and seems many view this forum as one to engage in personal attacks and insults rather than anything more constructive. Might be another clue why this Forum is dwindling and dying.

Don't mind if you ignore me, I'm not here to serve you. But I see you have some difficulty in keeping this promise.





Are you okay Hun` ?

Trevor
----------------------------------
`Hey don´t the wars come easy and don´t the peace come hard`- Buffy Sainte-Marie Some swim with the stream. Some swim against the stream. Me - I´m stuck somewhere in the woods and can´t even find the stupid stream.
George
Centre Hastings
ON Canada
Posts: 10971
Why Study History?
Posted on: 5/30/2020 7:45:47 PM

Quote:
Quote:
Mr. Bock, this last post is similar to any of your responses to criticism on that other big pond site to which you allude constantly. Of note, you immediately assess anyone that doesn't buy your brand of bigotry as LWL, democrats, wing-nuts. You question the intellect of those whom may disagree with you. You question their sanity. In fact, it seems to me that you have a ready list of insults to toss out whenever needed. I read some of your stuff on Armchair General. It's a tired though well practiced methodology for you. You have brought it with you unfortunately.


Also a methodology frequently used and well practiced by those on the Left side of political and ideological divide, as we here in the USA define such. I understand how those raised in systems with generations of "creeping" socialism can tend to see anything close to an objective mid-point as leaning Right of the far Left norm they are used to.

All a matter of perspectives. Those of us supportive of free enterprise and the person freedoms and liberties and prosperity such makes possible notice a similar projection by those on the Left thinking their brand of bigotry, prejudice and bias is acceptable and any opposition speech isn't. Look whom has been blocking First Amendment rights here on USA college campuses as an example of the Orwellian "1984ish" "Correct-Speak" censorship and dis-information.

Quote:
You haven't been here long enough to understand my politics or views on much of anything. I am not an American remember. The international corps here think differently about many topics. In general, I would say that we do not divide ourselves into two warring camps. The divisions among men that you promote are engrained in your culture right now. But many moderate Americans on this site have not responded to you either. They are thoughtful people who have elected not to engage with you or the people with extreme and unsubstantiated views on LFF.


I have been on assorted Forums for thirty plus years now and same to similar personalities and views/perspectives such as I've encountered here have been there and dealt with all along. Didn't take much reading of your posts to gauge your views and your hostile intend shows here on this thread back around a thresh-hold post of "5/2/2020 3:40:03 PM " above.

Those "divisions among men" you imply go back through history and look to continue for some time into the future. It wasn't the USA which started two World Wars; nor did the USA present the Koran and provide it's scriptural incentive for Islamic Jihad. It wasn't the USA which spent the past five hundred years establishing colonies around the globe and then dumping then when the plunder was gone and the expense of supporting and preparing them for independence was too great. Well aware of how "international corps here~ and throughout history and around the globe~ think differently about many topics. That's why such have been the source of so many conflicts and misery upon this planet.

As for response/participation on this forum, I noticed that was dwindling to non-existant before I even joined. And I'm not surprised some have had their fill of the aggressive vitriolic responses you and a couple others present to any whom don't concur with your extreme Left-Wingnut views. This is part of what I've learned after exchanging a few PMs with some of those others.

Quote:
Actually, you don't engage in discussion. You are a link provider, a wiki poster. Dozens of them. Some are from xenophobic sites preferred by white supremacists and bigots. And for the most part, little discussion ensues. You have enough ego to repost stuff from your past, which was posted on other sites. So you keep at it and tally your score and the number of hits that you get on each post and we can ignore one another.


I've engaged in some discussions, but am not up to the level of debate and argument you prefer and engage in. I also think a major purpose for Forums is to provide and exchange information, then let the readers access and decide for themselves. I've provided sources/sites to counter the propaganda and distortions presented by the elitist Left-Wing supremacists and bigots operative here.

I repost from other forums because I don't see any sense to re-write if the first draft was good enough.

I admit I made a couple mistakes when I started here.
1) I neglected to genuflect to George and kiss his ring.
2) I neglected to get George's permission to post here.
3) I neglected to give George editorial and censorship rights over anything I might want to post here.
4) I neglected to acknowledge that this is George's Military History Forum.

I'm not aware of any way to tally views or "hits" on any posts I write, but such are for the other readers as much if not for the person I might be "addressing". I am trying to address the post and not the poster, but seems the Rules of Conduct here are a bit loose compared to what I'm used to and seems many view this forum as one to engage in personal attacks and insults rather than anything more constructive. Might be another clue why this Forum is dwindling and dying.

Don't mind if you ignore me, I'm not here to serve you. But I see you have some difficulty in keeping this promise.





Get over yourself, Mr. Bock. You seem to be a troll.
----------------------------------
G David Bock
Lynden
WA USA
Posts: 337
Why Study History?
Posted on: 5/30/2020 8:10:49 PM

Quote:
Still squirming and throwing your toys out of the pram. Still hurling insults.


As mentioned previously, and often, seems the ones hurling person and specific insults are you, George, and now looks to be Brian G. I may provide generic classifications of perspectives, but my decades history on Forums shows it's almost always the Left-Wingers whom consider being correctly identified as "insults".

Quote:
For someone who is not pissed, you seem pretty angry.


Again, a perspective and projection common to the Left-Wing that confuses disagreement with "angry". Usual internet-forum protocols are if one is angry THEY TYPE ALL IN CAPITALS LIKE THIS.

Quote:
I do not consider opposing views as insults I consider insults as insults.


Yet you contradict yourself in what follows ...

Quote:
... You can have an opinion, a belief, everybody is entitled to theirs. You can say " I believe this or that because of .........." and I can say "Well I believe something different because of ...........". It´s called discussion. It is the very basis of democracy - but you don´t do that do you ? Anybody who disagrees has abuse hurled at them - Left-Wingnut Loonie, bias, prejudice, racism, and xenophobia.


As I mentioned above, and is documented here in this thread, first case of specific and personal insults came from others, such as George accusing me of "hatred" and "hate speech". A tired cliche of classic Left-Wingers tossed towards anyone whom disagrees with their views.
"Left-Wingnut Loonie"(or "pseudo-Liberal) is a quid pro quo for being charged a "white supremacists", Right-Wing fascists, etc. "bias, prejudice, racism, and xenophobia." are also return charges towards those whom have hurled such towards me. Considering actions of Left-Wing groups like AntiFa and recent rioters here in the USA, and anti-Israel/Jew comments here; they would seem more appropriate descriptions of the Political Left.

Quote:
"Methinks you doth complain too much" to quote Shakespeare. I think you should look up the psychological mechanism of "Projection" (and yes I am an expert in this field, it is one of my proffessions ).


Again, only to the degree that is quid-pro-quo. And projection seems to be coming more from you, George and other LWLs.

Quote:
It might surprise you to find that George and I are actually conservatives with a small "c".


On the one hand it does, because neither of you have presented comments or positions I'd describe as Conservative, large "C" or small "c".
On the other hand, I've observed a long history of denial coming from the Left in not accepting truth and reality of what they present and how such and their ideology/positions match the terms others use to describe them. Deceit, Denial, and Hypocrisy are hallmarks of the Left-Wing.

There's is concept;
Looks like a duck,
Quacks like a duck,
Swims like a duck,
Waddles like a duck,
... must be a duck!

Substitute Left-Winger for "duck".

Quote:
It is just that in the troubled, polarized US, the Conservatives have moved so far to the Right we can no longer identify with you.


1) The USA has been "troubled" and "polarized" since about 1775 if you were to examine whom among the 13 colonies supported the War of Independence, whom supported the English Crown, and whom was neutral or bounced back and forth. we've been that ever since and basically boils down to those whom identify as economic Makers and others whom want to be economic Takers. Nothing new in human affairs if one looks honestly through history.

2) Conservative is on the Right side of the Ideological and Political divide, especially as has been and still remains so here in the USA. While some conservatives are leaning far Right, some are like me. I define as a Robert A. Heinlein sort of Conservative in that I want a Government as small as possible, as non-intrusive as possible, as fiscally responsible as possible, adhere to the Constitution and it's mandated authorizations such as provide an adequate National Defense(strong military); bit otherwise stay out of personal expressions and lifestyles - so long as such don't infringe upon the rights and freedoms of other citizens.

3) As presented already, "conservative" would appear to have vastly different definition with you all, and not at all how we or Webster would define it.


Quote:
Those of us who have served our countries, like myself, defending democracy along side you , can only look from without with great sadness. A friend who served with the 9th Panzer Grenadiers in Afghanistan put it quite succintly " America - we have admired you, we have loved you and sometimes hated you, we have envied you, but for the first time we pity you"


First off, we are a Republic, not a Democracy. Democracies too often devolve to majority rule which is (lynch)mob rule that abuses the rights of minorities. While we employ "democracy" methods of choosing representatives and some leadership, that and those elected are constrained by our Constitution and it's amendments.

Second off, if there's any perspective of "sadness", "pity", "hatred" Etc., it should be coming from to "over there".
1) In the last century plus, this planet has experienced to World Wars, neither started by the USA, but started by our so-called European "betters" whom have been mucking up the planet and their colonies for centuries.
2) Never-the-less, Uncle $am got drug in to help end these conflicts-global wars (which we didn't start!)
3) In the Second one, we got embroiled early on as "The Arsenal of Democracy" and since the so-called Allies couldn't pay Ca$h for the weapons, equipment, material, annd supplies the USA provided, our "socialist" POTUS of the time, FDR, came up wit this great scheme of "Lend-Lease" where you all got this stuff with promise to return and/or pay for later ...
4) Except little was returned (especially in usable condition) and almost nothing was "repaid". Except for, IIRC, Norway. All others still owe on those Debts.
5) After massive destruction of the lands of those older and (should have know)better nations that did start WW2, and of the many lands occupied and fought over, guess whom got the tab/bill for much of the reconstruction and recovery? Yup, good Ole' Uncle $ugar (such as the Marshall Plan, etc.).
6) Then there was the post-war "Red-Menace" of USSR (Communist) Soviet Russia 'might' invade and make war upon liberated Western Europe and along comes NATO - guess whom also puts up initial seed of military units and funding$ ~ yeah, Uncle $ugar again.
7) So understandable the USA might have to seed the start and base of NATO, but a few decades later, when the other European members are recovered and could carry more of their share/obligation, did they? No, everyone did the bare minimum and banked their savings in making "socialist democracies/democratic socialisms" providing enhanced standard of living for their people, riding on the USA protection, and then thumb their nose towards US on "see how much better our countries/societies are than yours".
8) Along the way of the past 75 years the USA provided the largest share of "Foreign Aid" going mostly to the countries that were former colonies of those so much better European nations. Who plundered what they could for centuries and then abandoned those "colonies". USA also started and funded a "Peace Corps" to further educate and uplift the economies and societies of these former European colonies.
9) Further insult to injury, USA also got embroiled/drug into an assortment of region conflicts/wars resulting from mismanagement of other nations towards these former colonies.

The wonder should be that the USA has shown such forbearance and tolerance to the abuses heaped upon us by an ungrateful and obnoxious greedy world that has a constant hand-out, but little hand-up towards the issues and problems they have created over the centuries and expect the USA to pay for and fix.

To be frank, some of you can take your anti-USA attitudes and "pity" and shove them up your body orifice where the Sun don't shine. Meanwhile, we Evil Satan Damn Yankees will likely carry on for another century or more bailing out the world from it's mistakes and trying to show how they can "learn to catch fi$h" rather than expect US to constantly "give them fi$h".

Quote:
Take care of yourself
Trevor


We have. Patiently waiting and expecting the rest of you to do same.
----------------------------------
TANSTAAFL - There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
George
Centre Hastings
ON Canada
Posts: 10971
Why Study History?
Posted on: 5/31/2020 8:09:29 AM

Wow David. Crackpot history of the US

I shall try to be concise, something that you struggle with. It may be difficult as your thoughts have come out as a stream of consciousness with no central focus. Melt down anger.

1. You seem to have a marginal understanding of the influence of the US during WW1.

2. Lend lease while generous, was put in place after Great Britain had had its gold reserves depleted to pay for US product on a cash and carry basis. You should consider that the US was very interested in limiting the British Empire and to ensure that it did not rise again. As well, if memory serves, Great Britain recently paid off a large loan from the US made in the post war years to help it get on its feet after having its economy destroyed in defending the west against the evil Nazi Empire. Given that Britain had given so much in two world wars, I do think that that loan should have been forgiven.

3. The US has been and still is an imperial power. Puerto Rico, Guam, the Philippines, Hawaii and Mexico were all seized from either the government that owned it or from the people subjugated by another imperial power. Check the concept of economic imperialism for an interesting view of how the US maintains a world wide influence to this day and has military bases all over the world. Those bases are part of the US security system as was the DEW line.

4. The Marshall Plan was critically important to the recovery of Europe. The US understood that a poverty stricken Europe would destroy the potential for economic recovery. The US did not wish to see Germany and others suffer from reparations that were imposed after the first world war and that led to discontent in Germany and possibly to the rise of Hitler. The US and to a lesser extent, Canada, were two countries that came out of the war in good economic shape but it was important to re-establish the world economy. The US was the last great power after the war and ready to extend its sphere of influence beyond its borders, for security and for economic benefit. You see, there is a different way of looking at the motivation behind any country's foreign policy.

5. It is a tired old refrain, heard often on this forum, that the world owes gratitude and respect to the US for all that it has done for the rest of us. It ties in nicely with that self serving and ego stroking concept of American exceptionalism.
I am perfectly happy to acknowledge American contributions to science and even world peace at times but let us not be naive. All countries act in their own best interest and that includes when going to war. US history since WW2 is packed with interventions in the affairs of other countries and that includes the support of tinpot dictators who were opposed by citizens who leaned left in their political ideology.

David, I called you out on your citation of a section of the Arm Chair General forum in which you were a prime mover in inciting hatred toward Muslims. You may have convinced yourself that that non-discussion on that forum was an academic treatment of the Islamic faith and jihad. But I took the time to read many of your responses and those of others. When the question was posed about what to do about the Muslim problem, one fellow responded, "Kill them all". And you know that those comments were all over that site. I shuddered when I read that and other comments just like it.

And therein lies the problem. You have convinced yourself that all you were doing was discussing the Koran and jihad but what you were doing was stoking the fires of hatred. And you were a willing participant and revelling in the responses from knuckledraggers on that forum. Perhaps you actually believe in your cause but I found the site inflammatory and I know that white supremacists and mass murderers were drawn to some of the links that you referenced in your posts. I sure did not want that stuff coming to this forum.

And that is what you fail to understand. Web sites that you cite, including Muslimworld or MuslimsRus (I can't remember the actual name) attract the worst of us. They attract those who hate and those who cannot differentiate between a radical jihadist and the American shop keeper that happens to be a Muslim.

And since I called you out on it, you have continued to attack and make accusations that have no basis in fact. You know somehow that I and Trevor and others are wild eyed leftist whackos because you "just know" based upon 30 years in the forum business. BTW, who tells everyone how long they have been participating in discussion forums. I mean, really, who cares. We aren't preparing to defend a PHD thesis here.
Once told that I and Trevor were small "c" conservatives, your response was, "can't be" because Noah Webster said so. For all your bluster and braggadocio, you seem uncomfortable when the ideas that you have cemented in your head over the years are challenged. You choose to reject and then call the challengers every epithet in the books appropriate for your list of people and groups whom you see as the root of all problems in America.

You seem to be melting down. Lastly, this is not my forum. I am not the king of the forum by any means; I am just another poster. But once I called you out, you identified me as someone to vilify. You have even gone so far as to PM others to find out what I am all about. And surprise, surprise, you find some kindred spirits and they are likely LFF participants almost exclusively. That isn't bad or good but that section of the forum has attracted a certain type for a while now and you fit right in. I don't.

There are many fine people here who consider their words carefully before they speak. They do not throw spaghetti at the wall in the form of unconnected wiki links. They could do so. We all could. Others have tried and have been asked to stop.

But the preference is to see someone prepare some text or prose, in his own words and to generate discussion that way. Give us something to discuss. It doesn't have to be long and doesn't have to include three or four wiki hits in every post. Truthfully, I find that to be a lazy approach to discussion. It lacks rigour and no, I am not an academic scholar by any stretch.

You seem impressed that your posts, often consisting only of a link, have lots of views. And yet, often no commentary because no-one can figure out what it is that you wish to discuss. Too often, you present a boring screed on the basics of something like economics starting and finishing with the premise that "capitalism good, socialist economics bad". Dissenters are all LWL, and hypocrites.

There are too many other points to be made and generated by the ramblings above and now I am beginning to ramble myself so time to go.

Cheers,

George
----------------------------------
Brian Grafton
Victoria
BC Canada
Posts: 3203
Why Study History?
Posted on: 5/31/2020 9:00:10 PM

George, do you remember the Aislin cartoons (Montreal "Gazette") of the late 1970s? Good advice there!! "Take a Valium."
[Read More]

There s no need to bow before one who was a bigger body in a larger cesspool. When everything stinks, "take a Valium!"

Cheers, and stay safe,
Brian G

----------------------------------
"We have met the enemy, and he is us." Walt Kelly. "The Best Things in Life Aren't Things" Bumper sticker.
George
Centre Hastings
ON Canada
Posts: 10971
Why Study History?
Posted on: 5/31/2020 9:13:02 PM

OK I see.
----------------------------------
G David Bock
Lynden
WA USA
Posts: 337
Why Study History?
Posted on: 6/1/2020 2:16:56 AM

Quote:
Quote:


I may be candid, blunt, and/or assertive, but as for "aggressive", you seem to be the one fitting that tag. From "Posted on: 4/28/2020 2:21:23 PM " of this thread onward to here, you have been increasingly abusive, and escalated to insulting by accusing me of being in the "business of hate", engaging in "hate speech", etc. and also charging me with being "Islamophobic" while yourself used terms and references that by your standards would make you guilty of being Christianophobic and Jewishophobic, while practicing the classic brand of "hate speech" common to the non-tolerant Left-Wing. When someone flings their "monkey poo" at me, I'm inclined to fling some of it back at them. A review of the chains of posts here in this thread will show that you are the one whom initiated any "aggressive" stance here.



G. David,

You have posted "Islamophobic" hate speech posts on well known right-wing white-supremacy conspiracy websites and now you are playing the victim for being called on it. Grow up.

Trevor


----------------------------------
TANSTAAFL - There Ain't No Such Thing As A Free Lunch
Page 2 of 2 (Page:  1    2  )

© 2020 - MilitaryHistoryOnline.com LLC